Center for Anti-Utilitarian Philosophy

anamchara · Oct 2, '07, 4:10 pm

How does everyone like it? I am enjoying it. Very powerful images. My uncle served in the Pacific and was affected for years after. My father was too young but later served in the Korean war

I was excited to see that Ken Burns had chose my own home town (Sacramento) as one of towns he featured.

I've been glued to the TV for this documentary. I love history and especially this time period.

How do you think Ken Burns did with this one so far?

PoliSciProf · #2 Oct 2, '07, 5:35 pm

What I have seen looks pretty good. It seems real and the narration sets the context well. WWII was my father's and father-in-laws war and because of this I am a kind of WWII buff.

mdzialo · #3 Oct 2, '07, 10:23 pm

For Americans WWII was the last declared war, and it was the last war we won - if we won it (only 52 million people dead).

But aren't you all sick of politicians coming up time and time again with the same old bright idea of always using wars to "fix" things? WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland from the west and Stalin invaded it from the east. In other words, without Stalin agreeing to invade, there would have been no WWII. At the end of WWII, Stalin controlled half of Europe (10 countries). In other words, one of the guys that started the war, actual has the best claim for being the one who won the war.

The current crop of elected American politicians are practically all against ending wars, whatever their rationalization for it may be, whatever the American people may say, the practical result is the same: the neverending war.

didymus · #4 Oct 2, '07, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by anamchara

How does everyone like it? I am enjoying it. Very powerful images. My uncle served in the Pacific and was affected for years after. My father was too young but later served in the Korean war

I was excited to see that Ken Burns had chose my own home town (Sacramento) as one of towns he featured.

I've been glued to the TV for this documentary. I love history and especially this time period.

How do you think Ken Burns did with this one so far?

I think it's very good -- my only complaint might be that he's chosen too few people as narrators/witnesses, whatever. His Civil War series was better.
I was struck by how many of our soldier's lives were wasted by general's blunders (Sicily, Anzio, Cassino, &c, as nauseum).

Likewise, I never knew medics got paid less than other soldiers. My father was a medic in the Army Air Corps.

blessedtoo · #5 Oct 2, '07, 11:37 pm

I thought it was a masterpiece. It was so completely refreshing to watch a film, beautifully edited, narrated, and documented, that had NO agenda. He simply told the story, warts and all.

The veterans (and the lovely, lovely women they married or were related to) made me weep. Their humility, honesty, and selflessness stirred in me such a love for our military men. It sparked an illuminating conversation between me and my dad, who served in Japan after the war during the occupation. I am broken-hearted at the thought that within the next 2 decades, these brave and heroic men and women will no longer be with us to provide their powerful witness.

I have also been moved to tears by the footage of life in America circa 1940's. Listening to FDR begin speeches by addressing "God Almighty, Our Creator," makes me realize how very far we have fallen from our roots in this country. Seeing the film of soldiers receiving Holy Communion on the ships and in the fields of battle, grasping their rosaries as they face the enemy, and praying over the bodies of their fallen commrades reminds me that it was not that long ago that we, as a people, actually did consider God an essential part of American life.

Even the egregious wrongs done to the Japanese Americans and the African Americans in the US at that time were set aside by those who were the victims of this injustice in order to fight for the country they loved.

This is filmmaking at it's best. I managed to get my whole family involved in watching and discussing WWII. We all learned things we had never known before. We were reminded of the greatness of this country and the sacrifice of our military men and women. We have all been deeply moved.

iamrefreshed · #6 Oct 3, '07, 7:44 am

I'm not much of a TV person. Could you give me the information about its airing?

There is no generation I admire more than my grandparents, those of WWII.

NewUlm1976_2000 · #7 Oct 3, '07, 8:09 am

I finished watching the last part last night and it was 11 out of 10. Another very well done documentary by Ken Burns. I like his approach in how he spins the different parts of his story, the horrors of war, despair and racial strife (both African Americans and Asian Americans) undertones at home without jingoistic overtones.

I see the Russian Front is pretty much ignored, but that gets away from where Burns is trying to go. He is showing the effect on the US mainland. He could do another entire documentary just on eastern Europe and Russia during this time period.

I have also enjoyed WWII history study and I am looking to pledge ($365) to PBS to get the DVD set as soon as possible.

**brotherhrolf** · #8 Oct 3, '07, 10:41 am

I finished watching the series last night. This was my parent's generation and I was born a short six years after the war. Much was not explained to we children in the years after the war. There was Victory at Sea which I watched with my father. My father served in the Navy in the Pacific as an aircraft mechanic. He served on Gudalcanal after the Marines took it and then moved up to Munda, New Georgia. I assumed that that is where he served out the war........he never talked any further about it. My sister later found out that my father was on aircraft carriers to the end of the war and saw the onslaught of the kamikazes.

Likewise, my Uncle Leo served on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. I often wondered why he was not able to work when I was a teenager. Or why my Uncle Joe was always so distant - he served through D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge. Or my wife's Uncle Al who was captured in the Battle of the Bulge.

Such things were not spoke of to us kids back in the 50s and 60s. My wife and I watched the entire series and so many things began to make sense.

The episode last night enfuriated me towards those who call us terrorists for dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They should watch that last episode. Likewise, I think the president of Iran should watch that last episode - and the tears of those old men who saw that which they should not have seen in their youth.

Ken Burns did a remarkable job.

wabrams · #9 Oct 3, '07, 10:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherhrolf

Likewise, my Uncle Leo served on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. I often wondered why he was not able to work when I was a teenager. Or why my Uncle Joe was always so distant - he served through D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge. Or my wife's Uncle Al who was captured in the Battle of the Bulge.

Somewhat of the same thing in my family. My (great) uncle Bruce was a Marine from 1939-1961. My mom and grandmother said they remember after he retired he would sit around, get drunk at home by him self the evenings my (great) aunt worked late, and pick up the phone and call relatives until she came home. He was a very happy and well mannered drunk from what I understand. My mom said that it wasn't until after his death she found out why he was that way (drinking alot when by himself): he was at Guadalcanal, Sai Pan, Okinawa, was supposed to be apart of teh 3rd wave of troops for the invasin of Japan, part of the releif force for the Chosen "Frozen" and finally wounded later on in the Korean War and sent home.

**Della** · #10 Oct 3, '07, 10:56 am

I've seen many, many documentaries on WWII, so this was not my first experience with such material. Burns series has a lot of good things in it, except for the dreary cello and violin music chosen for the background. It was played in the most inappropriate places, making it seem as though there was nothing good that was being done by our armed forces. I am very sensitive to musical atmosphere on film and found it downright depressing. Death and more death seemed the main theme of the music. It was, for me, a big distraction besides being unnecessary and heavy-handed.

**brotherhrolf** · #11 Oct 3, '07, 11:45 am

Della, I noticed the music too. But my take on it was that it was retrospective and in line with what the individual interviewee's remembered. He did the same thing in the Civil War, the "Ashokan Farewell", "Lorena", "I Am a Good Old Rebel" - are all laments.

Contrast that with Richard Rodgers score for Victory at Sea.
http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Sea-Mu...1435971&sr=8-3

I was really upset at the beginning of the series (and actually throughout it) that he pretty much glossed over the naval battles and the Navy's contribution. The contrast between Victory at Sea and The War is a contrast between triumphalism and retrospective. You could see the "thousand yard stare" still viable after all these many years in the eyes of those vets.

The music may have been depressing but the words of the vets last night - particularly one - who said that prior to D-Day he did not know why Eisenhower called the invasion "a Crusade" and then his sudden realization why when they came upon a concentration camp was telling to me.

**Della** · #12 Oct 3, '07, 11:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherhrolf

Della, I noticed the music too. But my take on it was that it was retrospective and in line with what the individual interviewee's remembered. He did the same thing in the Civil War, the "Ashokan Farewell", "Lorena", "I Am a Good Old Rebel" - are all laments.

Contrast that with Richard Rodgers score for Victory at Sea.
http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Sea-Mu...1435971&sr=8-3

I was really upset at the beginning of the series (and actually throughout it) that he pretty much glossed over the naval battles and the Navy's contribution. The contrast between Victory at Sea and The War is a contrast between triumphalism and retrospective. You could see the "thousand yard stare" still viable after all these many years in the eyes of those vets.

The music may have been depressing but the words of the vets last night - particularly one - who said that prior to D-Day he did not know why Eisenhower called the invasion "a Crusade" and then his sudden realization why when they came upon a concentration camp was telling to me.

For me the music of Burns' series did just the opposite. It made it seem that there was no good reason for all our men going to fight. If only he had used more of the music of the era instead of the dreary cello/violin composition. Even when there were victories the viewer wasn't allowed to celebrate them. All one was allowed to feel was how terrible it was, and yes it was terrible, but it was also the high point of American life when we stepped forward and helped rid the world of an evil so bad there are no words to describe it.

The thing is that now days we no longer believe there is an evil except what the PC crowd tells us is evil, so there's no such thing as a clear victory nor anything worth dying for, which is what I saw reflected in this series. A modern, and to my mind wrong-headed, perspective was imposed on another time and a people who didn't believe in such a poisoned view of life and would have rejected it as defeatist if presented with it in their day.

This is just MHO, but it's how it struck me, sad to say.

**brotherhrolf** · #13 Oct 3, '07, 12:47 pm

Wow! I didn't come away with that at all. There was enough Benny Goodman, Andrews Sisters, Glenn Miller, etc. to more than balance out the cello/violin dirges. It might be interesting to note that the National WWII Museum is in New Orleans and I purchased a brick to honor my father and support the museum. They are expanding the museum as I write.

The WWII museum tries to portray the struggle in non-partisan tones. History for history's sake. Burns did the same thing in the Civil War - it certainly wasn't the Civil War told from a Southern point of view. His is an abstract view which simply acknowledges the facts. I did not find his explanations of what the Germans or the Japanese did to be apologetic in any way. What was is what was.

Now, sixty years later, Burns' is applying the analytic lense of history the same way he did for the Civil War. I don't think he is doing anything to detract from our WWII Vets. He is simply recognizing the profound trauma they encountered and how it impacted their lives.

Newzie52 · #14 Oct 3, '07, 6:13 pm

I thought the series was a masterpiece - footage, interviews,and music. The Norah Jones version of "American Anthem" by Gene Scheer ("America, I gave my best to you...) just did me in. My 87 year old dad is a Navy vet of the Pacific campaign and all I could think of was the stories he has told me over the years. My late FIL was an Army veteran who fought in Europe post D-day.

We have lived for years in Mobile, AL, and have met most of the Mobilians in the film (Katharine and Sid Phillips, Herndon Inge, John Gray, Tom Galloway - all sharp as tacks and wonderful people.) My husband is a broadcast journalist who had the distinct pleasure of interviewing Ken Burns when he was in town in early September for a preview showing of a portion of the series. He is a brilliant, talented, eloquent and humble man, and was kind enough to give my husband a copy of the DVD, which we will treasure.

If you are interested, here is a link to the interview my husband did with Ken. http://www.myfoxgulfcoast.com/myfox/...d=1.1.1&sflg=1

CapaxDei · #15 Oct 3, '07, 6:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdzialo

WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland from the west and Stalin invaded it from the east. In other words, without Stalin agreeing to invade, there would have been no WWII.

Not quite. Britain and France entered the to defend Polish integrity. Obviously, that didn't happen. After Austria and Czechoslovakia, the British and the French decided that they had to act. Too little, too late. If the French had stood up to Hitler when he re-militarized the Rhineland in 1935, things might have turned out differently.

Of course, if the US had minded its own business and stayed out of WWI, perhaps WWII in Europe would never have happened.

Don't blame Stalin.

Oct 3, '07, 9:39 pm

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherhrolf

The episode last night enfuriated me towards those who call us terrorists for dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They should watch that last episode. Likewise, I think the president of Iran should watch that last episode - and the tears of those old men who saw that which they should not have seen in their youth.

Ken Burns did a remarkable job.

Your post gave me goose-bumps! I agree completely with your critique. While my dad has spoken in snippets over the years about his experience, it took this film-masterpiece to start an animated dialogue which was full of illuminating insights into who he is as a man and how that generation views life. What a gift!

I agree with you that so little was discussed in many American households about the war that I confess my understanding was as flimsy as a nylon stocking. Having been raised in the era of hippie pacifism, I always rebuked the use of the atom bomb. To hear the lovely and articulate Katherine Phillips state unequivocally that her generation would "defy" anyone who claimed the use of the bomb was wrong made me understand at my core the profound losses our country endured.

I also saw a fascinating special on the History Channel about the Manhattan Project. The point was made that since the creation of the bomb, losses such as those suffered in WWI and II, have not been repeated. While all deaths are a tragedy, the argument was made that the atom bomb could actually be a "peace" weapon in that the threat alone curtails brutality.

#17

Oct 3, '07, 9:48 pm

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Della

For me the music of Burns' series did just the opposite. It made it seem that there was no good reason for all our men going to fight. If only he had used more of the music of the era instead of the dreary cello/violin composition. Even when there were victories the viewer wasn't allowed to celebrate them. All one was allowed to feel was how terrible it was, and yes it was terrible, but it was also the high point of American life when we stepped forward and helped rid the world of an evil so bad there are no words to describe it.

The thing is that now days we no longer believe there is an evil except what the PC crowd tells us is evil, so there's no such thing as a clear victory nor anything worth dying for, which is what I saw reflected in this series. A modern, and to my mind wrong-headed, perspective was imposed on another time and a people who didn't believe in such a poisoned view of life and would have rejected it as defeatist if presented with it in their day.

This is just MHO, but it's how it struck me, sad to say.

I didn't get that at all and believe me, I was looking for that message to seep through!

I loved his choice of music. In fact, I have been driven to madness trying to find out the name of the one particular cello piece (I think it's Bach) that played almost continuously throughout. The credits at the end were too tiny for me to read, although I tried desperately! For me, the intent was not to provoke a nihilistic world view, but rather a contemplative look at the horror of war. His judicious use of the music when showing the death and destruction was appropriate, IMO. It did not prevent me from experiencing the joy and jubilation of the victories. In fact, it probably made them more meaningful when seen in the light of the enormous sacrifices made by our guys.

#18

Oct 4, '07, 6:15 am

wisdom 3:5 wisdom 3:5 is offline

Book Club Member

Join Date: June 2, 2004

Posts: 1,174

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Della

Burns series has a lot of good things in it, except for the dreary cello and violin music chosen for the background. It was played in the most inappropriate places, making it seem as though there was nothing good that was being done by our armed forces. I am very sensitive to musical atmosphere on film and found it downright depressing. Death and more death seemed the main theme of the music. It was, for me, a big distraction besides being unnecessary and heavy-handed.

My husband and I watched the first episode last night. While we enjoyed most of the other music we found the cello/violin during the interviews intrusive. Good music, it jsut shouldn't be played during the interviews.

I did like the fact that they used music that was written during the time-period though. Its, I think, difficult to find much that is good to listen to (classical) during that time period.

For another poster - No Bach. Here's a link to a short article on the music for the series:
http://www.pbs.org/thewar/about_music.htm

__________________
"What the world needs is a voice that is right not when the world is right, but a voice that is right when the world is wrong."
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

#19

Oct 4, '07, 6:25 am

Dale_M Dale_M is offline

Forum Elder

Join Date: September 6, 2006

Posts: 18,814

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessedtoo

I loved his choice of music. In fact, I have been driven to madness trying to find out the name of the one particular cello piece (I think it's Bach) that played almost continuously throughout.

Amazon.com is selling a 4-disk CD of the soundtrack, and has small clips of most every piece, to which you can listen. Perhaps you could listen to the most likely clips, and figure out the name in this manner? http://www.amazon.com/War-Ken-Burns-...1503931&sr=1-1

During the previous year, Hispanic groups complained that "The War" ignored Hispanic contributions to the U.S. war effort. Were their concerns addressed in the series? If so, was it adequate? (I have been away from home and unable to view the series.)

#20

Oct 4, '07, 7:00 am

Newzie52

Junior Member

Join Date: September 24, 2007

Posts: 135

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale_M

During the previous year, Hispanic groups complained that "The War" ignored Hispanic contributions to the U.S. war effort. Were their concerns addressed in the series? If so, was it adequate? (I have been away from home and unable to view the series.)

At the end lf one episode, there were a couple of additional interviews with Hispanic American soldiers, and I noticed them again later in the series.

I found the anger displayed by the Hispanic community at being initially "left out" of the series a little puzzling. (And I want to be careful here...) Blacks were segregated, Japanese American citizens were interned, and Jewish people had a special stake in the war due to Hitler's insanity - that provides context for highlighting individuals with those ethnicities. Unless I've missed something, it doesn't seem that there really needed to be special emphasis on the role of Hispanic Americans, per se, during WW II - no more than the role of Irish Americans, Polish Americans, etc. (I'm Irish, for purposes of disclosure.) I don't think it dawned on Ken Burns that there was any real reason to single out Hispanic American contributions to the War (aside from the fact that there are, today, many Hispanic citizens) and he initially resisted adding the footage, as I understand. It just struck me as hypersensitivity, I guess. Just my thoughts...

#21

Oct 4, '07, 9:04 am

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Dale and Wisdom:

God bless you! I found the piece and the madness has stopped!

I thought I had checked the soundtrack on Amazon, but apparently I missed it.

Thanks so much!

#22

Oct 4, '07, 9:05 am

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale_M

During the previous year, Hispanic groups complained that "The War" ignored Hispanic contributions to the U.S. war effort. Were their concerns addressed in the series? If so, was it adequate? (I have been away from home and unable to view the series.)

There were two Hispanic veterans features, as well as two African Americans and two Japanese Americans.

Equal treatment of all, IMO.

#23

Oct 4, '07, 5:11 pm

CapaxDei

Junior Member

Join Date: August 22, 2007

Posts: 175

Religion: Roman Rite Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Another view:

A Letter to Ken Burns

NB: Saying "that's stupid" does not constitute constructive commentary.

#24

Oct 4, '07, 6:24 pm

Newzie52

Junior Member

Join Date: September 24, 2007

Posts: 135

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapaxDei

Another view:

A Letter to Ken Burns

NB: Saying "that's stupid" does not constitute constructive commentary.

I guess then, that Gary North can make his own WWII film. (I find him a bit of a nut, to say the least...still waiting for his dire, apocalyptic Y2k warnings to come to fruition.)

As Mr. Burns himself has pointed out (heard him in person) his purpose was NOT to highlight generals, etc., but instead ordinary folks in extraordinary circumstances ("from the bottom up") and show the experiences of folks from four typical small towns. I think he did it beautifully, but, to each his own.

#25

Oct 4, '07, 6:32 pm

anthony022071 anthony022071 is offline

Regular Member

Join Date: April 8, 2007

Posts: 4,094

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Ken Burns is a cornball. He always makes racism the underlying
issue in his documentaries. He likes to play upon guilt.

#26

Oct 4, '07, 7:20 pm

Newzie52

Junior Member

Join Date: September 24, 2007

Posts: 135

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony022071

Ken Burns is a cornball. He always makes racism the underlying
issue in his documentaries. He likes to play upon guilt.

Cornball? ("unsophisticted, old fashioned") I don't think so.

Perhaps racism is an issue in his documentaries because it was/is an issue in real life (segregated units, internment camps, etc.)

I was at the Mobile AL preview of the film, with Mr. Burns in attendance. When the African American gentleman (Willie Rushton, I think) told how the white ship's captain ordered the barber who said he wouldn't cut a black man's hair to cut it or else, the audience (mostly white) cheered.

#27

Oct 4, '07, 9:13 pm

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

The closest thing to a philosophical summary of your documentary that you allow on camera comes in the introduction to Episode 7, the final episode. You begin with a photo of a German soldier about to shoot a man, who sits at the edge of a pit filled with corpses. We hear a voice. Then, mid-sentence, we see who is speaking: a Marine pilot who has appeared in several episodes as an eyewitness.

You used him in Episode 1 to present your thesis that World War II was a necessary war. There, you bring him into view immediately after "A Florentine Films Production." He tells us that he never questioned the necessity of the war. It was something that had to be done. In Episode 7, his statement is deeply religious – more religious than anything you present in the other film clips.

The world contains evil, and if it didn't contain evil, we probably wouldn't need to try to construct religions. "No evil – no God," I think.

It would be extremely difficult to construct a confession of faith that is more diametrically at odds with the American view of religion than this. This declaration is not mere atheism. This is Sigmund Freud's theory of religion, stated more baldly than anything I have ever seen in a media product aimed at the broad American public. This is not a documentary on the wide varieties of fringe religious opinions in America. This is your carefully crafted introduction to the final episode. He continued:

No, of course, "No evil – no war." But this is not a human possibility that we need to entertain. There will always be plenty of evil. And there will always be wars . . . because human beings are aggressive animals.

Here is the Darwinian worldview in a nutshell. Man is not a creature made by God in God's image. He is therefore not in moral rebellion against God. Man is autonomous – an aggressive animal. Ours is a universe in which war stems from an innate evil in man, and so does the idea of God itself. This is a worldview that places man at the apex, with evil as his defining characteristic.

I am not familiar with the author of this letter but I fully agree with him on the above point.

I too was struck by the marine's commentary about religion, evil, and man's inherently agressive nature. I must admit I was not surprised because after following the comments this particular vet made throughout the series, it was clear to me his "philosophical" positon.
Upon relfection, I do find it interesting that so little was mentioned about faith in God. While I appreciated the footage of the soldiers receiving Communion, Last Rites, and the ever present rosary beads, I did find it a suspicious omission that those interviewed had so little to say about how, or if, their faith had sustained them.

#28

Oct 5, '07, 9:04 am

KCT

Senior Member

Join Date: June 5, 2004

Posts: 6,239

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

We've enjoyed it very much.

The timing was great because a couple weekends ago we went to the Air and Space Museum in VA, near Dulles airport. Lots of great planes there, including the Enola gay. My husband bought the book Band of Brothers, which we've both been reading. Dh has seen the HBO series by the same name and just bought thet DVD on e-bay. When I finish the book, I might watch it.

Anyway, all those things put together has gotten us on a WWII kick at our house. ---KCT

#29

Oct 6, '07, 12:11 am

didymus

Veteran Member

Radio Club Member

Join Date: April 5, 2005

Posts: 10,387

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessedtoo

I am not familiar with the author of this letter but I fully agree with him on the above point.

I too was struck by the marine's commentary about religion, evil, and man's inherently aggressive nature. I must admit I was not surprised because after following the comments this particular vet made throughout the series, it was clear to me his "philosophical" positon.
Upon reflection, I do find it interesting that so little was mentioned about faith in God. While I appreciated the footage of the soldiers receiving Communion, Last Rites, and the ever present rosary beads, I did find it a suspicious omission that those interviewed had so little to say about how, or if, their faith had sustained them.

I think the Marine pilot's remarks are a recognition of man's fallen nature from a non-religious viewpoint.

As for those interviewed not talking about how their faith sustained them -- well, many religious people don't speak about their faith. Our culture has reached a point where it's okay to discuss sex in public but religion is no longer mentioned in polite company.

The other choice, more likely, is that their faith didn't sustain them. They say there are no atheists in foxholes but I suspect the opposite is true -- being stuck in a foxhole with your comrades being killed at random around you is probably enough to strip away most people's faith.

__________________

It's not hoarding if it's BOOKS.

#30

Oct 6, '07, 1:31 am

blessedtoo blessedtoo is offline

Regular Member

Forum Supporter

Join Date: December 27, 2005

Posts: 2,919

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

The other choice, more likely, is that their faith didn't sustain them. They say there are no atheists in foxholes but I suspect the opposite is true -- being stuck in a foxhole with your comrades being killed at random around you is probably enough to strip away most people's faith.

Well, I can't speak authoratatively on the subject since I've never been in a foxhole but your suggestion strikes me as paradoxical given the amount of footage depicting the men receiving Communion, praying the rosary, and making the sign of the Cross over the dead bodies of their friends.

Oct 6, '07, 8:13 am

brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline

Forum Elder

Forum Supporter

Join Date: November 6, 2004

Posts: 17,357

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Ken Burns was right to point out the racism. I grew up in the segregated South. I well remember "colored" water fountains, the bus drivers stating to black people "step to the back of the bus" and on and on. It is a very valid point. He's not using racism to play upon guilt. It is simply hard to remember that today's world is not the world of the 40s where such things were a matter of fact.

__________________
Homo proponit sed Deus disponit.

#32

Oct 7, '07, 9:45 am

anamchara

Banned

Join Date: May 25, 2004

Posts: 14,370

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessedtoo

I thought it was a masterpiece.

Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts on this wonderful program. Many of you said it better then I can. I thought it was brilliant. I've read the The Greatest Generation by Tom Brokaw and Flags of Our Fathers. Both books are good. Flags of Our Fathers not only gave me an education on the training the Marines went through to prepare for battles like Iwo Jima but the horrific brutality they were part of. After reading that it didn't surprise me at all that many of these men do not like talking about what happen. I'm glad I read that book before I saw this program as it helped me understand the men even more. What these young men went through profoundly humbles me. I had a cousin who died in the battle of the Bulge and apparently I did have other uncles who fought which I never knew about until recently when I started asking my mom about it. She was only 10 yrs at the time but she remembers very well. She watched the whole program and it brought back many memories for her.

Interesting to note, When Ken Burns was recently interviewed he said that he loved it when these older veterans would open up and tell their stories and their kids would be in the same room and say "you never told us that before." They had kept it all inside them for so long. And then the most satisfying was when after a preview at a VFW hall (Veterans of Foreign Wars) an older veteran came up to him and and thanked him for telling his story, the whole story that he never could tell before.

I want to see it all over again as I missed one night. I think I will purchase it at some point.

#33

Oct 7, '07, 9:52 am

anamchara

Banned

Join Date: May 25, 2004

Posts: 14,370

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Likewise, I never knew medics got paid less than other soldiers. My father was a medic in the Army Air Corps.

You should read Flags of Our Fathers, the author talks mainly about his father as a medic on Iwo Jima. It is gut wrenching what they went through. I had no idea they were paid less either.

Another interesting note is that 1200 WWII veterans die a day. They are getting older which is why it's even more important that their stories be told.

#34

Oct 9, '07, 7:50 am

anthony022071 anthony022071 is offline

Regular Member

Join Date: April 8, 2007

Posts: 4,094

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newzie52

Cornball? ("unsophisticted, old fashioned") I don't think so.

He's a cornball in that he is queasily mawkish and guilt-obsessed about the social injustices of American history.

#35

Oct 9, '07, 9:31 am

jrabs

Veteran Member

Join Date: August 5, 2004

Posts: 11,438

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony022071

He's a cornball in that he is queasily mawkish and guilt-obsessed about the social injustices of American history.

Perhaps he is right in pointing this out where WW11 is concerned. Is the bravery and sacrifice of the black, Hispanic or Native American any less than that of Caucasian American in WW11?

What about the American of Japanese heritage? Was the interment fair? He was merely pointing out these things happened and how it affected life from the POV of the folks he interviewed. It was a POV I liked seeing.

I have no problem with his approach to the series. I love it - it is replaying every Wed evening now.

__________________
"Only a general knows how and when to use one of his soldiers. Wait, your turn will come." St. Padre Pio

#36

Oct 9, '07, 12:36 pm

Newzie52

Junior Member

Join Date: September 24, 2007

Posts: 135

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony022071

He's a cornball in that he is queasily mawkish and guilt-obsessed about the social injustices of American history.

I've met the man and my husband interviewed him at length here in Mobile; he is anything but "queasily mawkish". He is plain-spoken and doesn't shy away from unpleasant truths. Perhaps social injustices require a little guilt

#37

Oct 9, '07, 2:03 pm

anthony022071 anthony022071 is offline

Regular Member

Join Date: April 8, 2007

Posts: 4,094

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherhrolf

Ken Burns was right to point out the racism. I grew up in the segregated South. I well remember "colored" water fountains, the bus drivers stating to black people "step to the back of the bus" and on and on. It is a very valid point. He's not using racism to play upon guilt. It is simply hard to remember that today's world is not the world of the 40s where such things were a matter of fact.

He admitted in an interview a couple of years ago that racism was the underlying theme common to his documentaries. Now why would he stress racism to that extent unless he wanted to provoke the usual sense of queasy guilt about American history that we are familiar with in modern history books?
We have our own everyday,matter-of-fact injustices,such as the exploitation of Mexican illegal aliens and outsource laborers,and poor people who live in ghettos being pushed around by urban developers,unfairly incarcerated,and brutalized by the police.
It would be more practical and honest to awaken people's consciences about current injustices than to stress the injustices of the past.

#38

Oct 10, '07, 10:15 am

dixieagle

Regular Member

Join Date: July 26, 2007

Posts: 4,421

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony022071

He admitted in an interview a couple of years ago that racism was the underlying theme common to his documentaries. Now why would he stress racism to that extent unless he wanted to provoke the usual sense of queasy guilt about American history that we are familiar with in modern history books?
We have our own everyday,matter-of-fact injustices,such as the exploitation of Mexican illegal aliens and outsource laborers,and poor people who live in ghettos being pushed around by urban developers,unfairly incarcerated,and brutalized by the police.
It would be more practical and honest to awaken people's consciences about current injustices than to stress the injustices of the past.

Perhaps racism was the underlying theme because it was so pervasive in the aspects of American life (Civil War, baseball, WWII) that his documentaries detail. And, perhaps a little guilt, or at least acknowledgment, is required.

As Ken Burns has a contract with PBS lasting for the next couple of decades, he may yet do films dealing with the present day injustices you list.

#39

Oct 16, '07, 9:15 am

magnolia bloom magnolia bloom is offline

Junior Member

Join Date: October 12, 2007

Posts: 397

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

I rented this documentary the day it was issued and watched it in less than a week. It was truly captivating. As for myself, I did not know a whole lot about the war in the Pacific, my interest was more with the European efforts.

Ken Burns, with his "Greek Chorus" truly kept my interest and gave so much first hand information, one could not help to be touched by the stories to the people who lived through these times.

Maggie

#40

Nov 2, '07, 3:36 pm

Dwyer

Regular Member

Join Date: February 26, 2007

Posts: 1,359

Religion: Byzantine Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

I watched a few hours of this series, including the first episode, the D-Day episode, and about another 90 minutes of it.

This is the first WWII series I've seen that labels American soldiers who fought in WWII "Killers." This label "Killers" came up several times.

The series also mentioned several times that Christianity forbids soldiers from shooting and killing the ennemy. This is absolute nonesense. Catholicism teaches and has a Just War Doctrine that says that soldiers who are in a just wars can kill the enemy, and killing is considered as killing in self-defense; that would include combat operations.

I just think this series went beyond all sense of reason and decorum labeling Americans soldiers that fought in WWII as "Killers." Not even the old British World At War Series (and to be honest, evne thought WaW expressed some modernist thinking, it was a better series than Burns, although it's like comparing apples and oranges) went this far. Now if soldiers purposely kill innocent civilians or POWs, that, is a different story, because the killing isn't justifies or necessary.

#41

Nov 2, '07, 3:47 pm

Al Masetti Al Masetti is offline

Senior Member

Join Date: June 20, 2005

Posts: 7,808

Religion: Catholic

Re: New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

There is also the "Victory at Sea" series which I found to be tremendously informative.

Center for Anti-Utilitarian Philosophy

Sunday, August 6, 2017

New Ken Burns WWII, anyone watching it?

No comments:

Post a Comment