Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
I think part of the problem with modern society is framing values in
terms of individual entitlements known as "rights". People have this
weird idea that the only way to protect someone or something is to claim
it has inherent "rights". It is possible to protect animals from
cruelty by simply saying it is wrong and forbidding it as going contrary
to the values of modern society. But "rights" have people convinced
that the society has no right to ban things simply from its shared sense
of right and wrong.
And what would a "right to autonomy" do for the chimpanzee? How could a
chimpanzee participate in human society? Would it be treated like a
baby? The point is to stop people who treat animals poorly, (and not
animaks who treat other animals poorly) so why not just ban the harmful
practices?
Mar 11, '17, 10:19 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
Do severely mentally disabled people have rights?
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Irrelevant, you are comparing a person with a defect to a fully functioning animal. This is apples to oranges at its finest.
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Mar 11, '17, 10:39 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Irrelevant, you are comparing a person with a defect to a fully functioning animal. This is apples to oranges at its finest.
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Yes, developmentally disabled persons (that's the current correct
terminology, to the best of my knowledge) have rights. They are still
"persons." As is the human fetus.
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Mar 11, '17, 10:42 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginny89
I think part of the problem with modern
society is framing values in terms of individual entitlements known as
"rights". People have this weird idea that the only way to protect
someone or something is to claim it has inherent "rights". It is
possible to protect animals from cruelty by simply saying it is wrong
and forbidding it as going contrary to the values of modern society. But
"rights" have people convinced that the society has no right to ban
things simply from its shared sense of right and wrong.
And what would a "right to autonomy" do for the chimpanzee? How could a
chimpanzee participate in human society? Would it be treated like a
baby? The point is to stop people who treat animals poorly, (and not
animaks who treat other animals poorly) so why not just ban the harmful
practices?
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And what of those aggressive chimpanzees who randomly attack other
chimpanzees? Aren't they violating the civil rights of the other
chimpanzees?
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Mar 11, '17, 11:38 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
I think the courts can make a distinction in how different kinds of
animals can be treated. For example, killing an ant is not the
equivalent of killing a chimpanzee. I think most of us already
instinctively understand this. In fact, killing a dog is already a crime
in many parts of the world, and yet no court would condemn pest control
companies as murderers.
But personhood? I don't think this is would muddy the waters even
further and blur the lines between humans, animals and the general
concept of identity overall. If they manage to label an ape a "person",
can you imagine the courts denying a human person the "right" to marry
an ape "person"??
This is a continuing trend of trying to erase distinctions between woman
and man, and man and beast. The materialists have been saying that
we're just "advanced animals" for a long time. And I've had people tell
me that ants have equal dignity to human beings. They are no longer able
to make proper distinctions, because they have no spiritual ground to
anchor themselves to. If there is no God, then you can assign any value
you want to anything, for there is no all-good, all-powerful creator,
and thus no objective value to anything.
I think there should be an appropriate respect for God's creatures and
there should be some punishment for clear cut cases of animal cruelty,
but not to micro-manage people's lives nor to erroneously put animals at
the level of human beings.
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Mar 11, '17, 11:39 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
What sort of monkey business is this? 
I certainly hope other countries do not ape such initiatives. 
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Mar 12, '17, 5:20 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Well, just don't treat them badly or use them as experiments, so that
next time when the table is turned and they rule over us, they do not
have a reason to treat us badly.
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Lord, by your cross and resurrection
you have set us free.
You are the Savior of the world.
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Mar 12, '17, 5:22 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer
Will the ape achieve legal protection as a "person" before the human fetus will?
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Now, this was my question!!!
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Mar 12, '17, 5:45 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanoAmerio
What sort of monkey business is this?
I certainly hope other countries do not ape such initiatives. |
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Mar 12, '17, 5:56 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
To be honest with the article, I sympathize with what he's doing to a
point in trying to have a more humane attitude towards chimpanzees and
other animals with higher intelligence amongst non-sentients. Where I
disagree with getting them rights, even non-human person rights, though
redefining the boundaries of animal cruelty could be more workable nd
realistic IMO.
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Mar 12, '17, 6:18 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer
Will the ape achieve legal protection as a "person" before the human fetus will?
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Spot on! 
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Mar 12, '17, 6:58 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben J
Well, just don't treat them badly or use
them as experiments, so that next time when the table is turned and they
rule over us, they do not have a reason to treat us badly.
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That would not happen unless our descendants all lose their
cognitive mind; and if that occurred the resulting beings would not care
about being ruled by apes.
I, for one, care zip about the animal cause. I will miss my dog for
ever; but if Japanese choose to eat dolphin, or if biomedical
laboratories in our country feel the need to work on chimpanzees, that
is no skin off of me. My emotional capacity is limited.
Excusez-moi, PETA and Co., I'm headed to the steakhouse.
ICXC NIKA
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Mar 12, '17, 7:34 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
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The problem started when we shifted from a "duty-based" ethic to a
"rights-based" ethic 100s of years ago. All the ancient cultures were
"duty-based" and rights were seen as the reciprocal side of duties. The
10 Commandments are duty-based, as is Hindu dharma.
Once we consider persons as detached, independent monads with rights,
but no duties (Enlightenment thinking), that's where the problem arises.
Then we have to go on to ensure rights to women, children, other races, animals, plants, the land, etc. See Wild Law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_law
That's fine within our current context and I'm for rights for all (even
tho I understand that those with more power & money are able to
press for their rights much better & effectively).
Also, the duty-based cultures had their downsides, so I'm not saying we
should go back to that. Though it would be good to bring more of a
duty-based ethic back, especially now that science and social sciences
tell us we are not independent monads but interconnected and
interdependent with other people and the environment.
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Mar 12, '17, 10:55 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer
Will the ape achieve legal protection as a "person" before the human fetus will?
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Apes could conceivably get legal personhood rights before unborn children do.
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Mar 12, '17, 11:12 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
No, apes do not deserve personhood rights.
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Mar 12, '17, 11:53 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Irrelevant, you are comparing a person with a defect to a fully functioning animal. This is apples to oranges at its finest.
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I was just pointing out that there are some issues with how you
define who is worthy of having rights. Clearly severely mentally ill
people often don't have duties and are often incapable of understanding
them. By your logic they should not have any rights.
Mar 12, '17, 12:02 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
I was just pointing out that there are
some issues with how you define who is worthy of having rights. Clearly
severely mentally ill people often don't have duties and are often
incapable of understanding them. By your logic they should not have any
rights.
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Mar 12, '17, 12:11 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
Do severely mentally disabled people have rights?
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You'll have to find the research related to ape psychology first. Apes
cannot write, operate machinery or perform any other complex tasks
humans do. Give one an apartment and see what happens.
The question and suggested answer have no merit.
Ed
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Mar 12, '17, 12:22 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
This idea of animals as persons is a Benthamite Utilitarian philosophic idea.
Utilitarian philosophy is the basis of modern Philosophy of Law.
Given the way the legal system works, the ape will have his day of
justice before the Supreme Court of the State of New York Appellate
Division and be granted its rights because Bentham said it must be so
and suffering of both man and beast must be minimized where possible:
Quote:
The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no
reason a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice
of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognised that the number of
the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum
are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to
the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line?
Is it the faculty of reason or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a
full-grown horse or dog, is beyond comparison a more rational, as well
as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day or a week or even a
month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail?
The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they
suffer?   
----Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy...#Animal_rights
This, unfortunately, is what we are up against in Anglo and American jurisprudence. 
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"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
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Mar 12, '17, 12:44 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2
You'll have to find the research related
to ape psychology first. Apes cannot write, operate machinery or perform
any other complex tasks humans do. Give one an apartment and see what
happens.
The question and suggested answer have no merit.
Ed
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The question and suggested answer were regarding "duty", not one's ability to operate machinery or perform complex tasks.
The question and suggested answer retain their merit.
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Mar 12, '17, 1:24 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Apes could conceivably get legal personhood rights before unborn children do.
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For some reason I just flashed on Hieronymus Bosch. The right panel of "The Garden of Earthly Delights" in particular.
It makes me mournful, in the 2nd Beatitude sense.
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Furthermore, abortion on demand must end!
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Mar 12, '17, 1:37 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2
You'll have to find the research related
to ape psychology first. Apes cannot write, operate machinery or perform
any other complex tasks humans do. Give one an apartment and see what
happens.
The question and suggested answer have no merit.
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But there are people incapable of doing all of those things, and we still view them as being worthy of having rights.
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Mar 12, '17, 2:19 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
But there are people incapable of doing all of those things, and we still view them as being worthy of having rights.
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Which is why the physical human species is a good boundary around
"personhood." Expand that even minorly to the animal side and arguments
will be made to retract it from the human side.
Best not push the snowball to begin with.
ICXC NIKA
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Mar 12, '17, 2:27 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Which is why the physical human species
is a good boundary around "personhood." Expand that even minorly to the
animal side and arguments will be made to retract it from the human
side.
Best not push the snowball to begin with.
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Why would expanding the concept of personhood to animals mean taking rights away from people?
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Mar 12, '17, 2:29 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Which is why the physical human species
is a good boundary around "personhood." Expand that even minorly to the
animal side and arguments will be made to retract it from the human
side.
Best not push the snowball to begin with.
ICXC NIKA
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Who was it that said, when man stops believing in divinity, eventually he will stop believing in humanity, too.. ?"
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Mar 12, '17, 2:34 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
Why would expanding the concept of personhood to animals mean taking rights away from people?
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The point for me is, how on earth can the ape be even remotely
considered as a legally defined person, when the unborn human being is
not?
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Mar 12, '17, 2:36 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Animals are not persons. My dog is not a person even though he exhibits
certain traits and responds to me on an animal level. This is just more
nonsense funded by a person or persons unknown.
The same nonsense that was tried and failed in Austria.
Ed
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Mar 12, '17, 2:52 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
I was just pointing out that there are
some issues with how you define who is worthy of having rights. Clearly
severely mentally ill people often don't have duties and are often
incapable of understanding them. By your logic they should not have any
rights.
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You deliberately left out the word 'inherently'. You are good at destroying a strawman though.
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Mar 12, '17, 3:26 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
I was just pointing out that there are
some issues with how you define who is worthy of having rights. Clearly
severely mentally ill people often don't have duties and are often
incapable of understanding them. By your logic they should not have any
rights.
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Mostly incorrect. Almost no mentally ill people have no sense of
duty at all. Even psychopaths know right from wrong, they just don't
connect with it emotionally.
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Mar 12, '17, 3:51 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
You deliberately left out the word 'inherently'. You are good at destroying a strawman though. |
That changes little. Any human in a vegetative state is also
"inherently" incapeable. Any fetus is "inherently" incapeable of
understanding duty as well. In fact, we could possibly even make the
arguement any human is "inherently" incapeable of understanding duty
until reaching the age of reason. He did not build or destroy a
strawman. Whether anyone believes an animal should be defined as a
person or not, you're definition was not only faulty but capeable of
heading down a dangerous path. A different standard would need to be
made than a measure of "duty" and "understanding the concept of duty".
Any standard that uses a measure of cognition or ability is "inherently"
flawed. Biologists are frequently discovering that animals (especially
primates and some birds) are more skilled and able to understand more
complexity, and even communicate it to eachother than previously given
credit for. As with any science, the field of animal behavior is
"evolving", new techniques for research are being used and new
discoveries are being made all the time, and could completely flip what
we think we know about them on it's head in a few years (or less).
Perhaps a statement like "only those with a human soul should have
rights" would work, but duty and understanding of duty does not work. At
the end of the day "personhood" as far as we are concerned is a
theological arguement, not scientific. I think most scientific
measurements would lean in the direction of defining an ape as a
non-human person. It'll be interesting to see how the courts decide
where to draw the line on what gets personhood rights and what does not.
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Mar 12, '17, 4:11 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regular Atheist
Why would expanding the concept of personhood to animals mean taking rights away from people?
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Because once it is admitted that human life is nothing special, there would be no reason not to.
ICXC NIKA
Mar 12, '17, 4:42 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapyrusDouay
That changes little. Any human in a
vegetative state is also "inherently" incapeable. Any fetus is
"inherently" incapeable of understanding duty as well. In fact, we could
possibly even make the arguement any human is "inherently" incapeable
of understanding duty until reaching the age of reason. He did not build
or destroy a strawman. Whether anyone believes an animal should be
defined as a person or not, you're definition was not only faulty but
capeable of heading down a dangerous path. A different standard would
need to be made than a measure of "duty" and "understanding the concept
of duty".
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Each of those humans has the potential to understand the necessary
concepts and act accordingly. Now while an outside factor is preventing
that potential from being fully expressed, it does not take it away.
Animals have no such potential in the first place. If you want to prove
otherwise, be my guest.
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Mar 12, '17, 4:56 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Because once it is admitted that human life is nothing special, there would be no reason not to.
ICXC NIKA
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Once people are told by law that human beings are nothing special then
the philosophy of unreason takes another step backward. It would reduce
human beings to nothing more than animal status, which is clearly not
the case. People suffering from debilitating mental states are suffering
from a disease. I've been hospitalized twice in a psych ward. I've seen
such people. They were being treated. Apes fall way outside the bounds
of personhood. This is all nonsense for the bored.
Ed
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Mar 12, '17, 5:44 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapyrusDouay
That changes little. Any human in a
vegetative state is also "inherently" incapeable. Any fetus is
"inherently" incapeable of understanding duty as well. In fact, we could
possibly even make the arguement any human is "inherently" incapeable
of understanding duty until reaching the age of reason. He did not build
or destroy a strawman. Whether anyone believes an animal should be
defined as a person or not, you're definition was not only faulty but
capeable of heading down a dangerous path. A different standard would
need to be made than a measure of "duty" and "understanding the concept
of duty".
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What is 'incapeable' and 'capeable'? You used the former thrice.
__________________
Lord, by your cross and resurrection
you have set us free.
You are the Savior of the world.
Life begins at conception not implantation.
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Mar 12, '17, 6:05 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben J
What is 'incapeable' and 'capeable'? You used the former thrice.
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Incapeable / capeable of "duty" and "understanding the concept of duty". I apologize for the confusion.
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Mar 12, '17, 6:41 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Each of those humans has the potential
to understand the necessary concepts and act accordingly. Now while an
outside factor is preventing that potential from being fully expressed,
it does not take it away.
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Thus they are still incapeable of duty or understanding the
concept of duty. All it takes is a good lawyer to spin it just right and
convince enough lawmakers, and terrible things happen. It leads down
the same dangerous path and potential consequences that many here are
arguing giving right's of personhood to apes will lead: to a legal loss
of personhood to humans. This has ALREADY happened in the U.S. in
regards to the fetus. We've already seen this happen with older children
in countries like Belgium..and lest we forget the push to allow for
euthenizing the elderly in the Netherlands. I'm not accusing you of
wishing for this by any means, but this is the kind of reasoning that
leads to these very dark places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Animals have no such potential in the first place. If you want to prove otherwise, be my guest.
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This is an assumption, based on observations and cultural bias.
The fact of the matter is we don't actually know. But the possibility
that one day we find out they do is a real one.
Behavioral ecologists will disagree, as there is evidence in both
directions for various species. That's my point. It is a poor basis for
your arguement, and you need a different one. I COULD cite peer-reviewed
sources in favor some species that appear to be demonstrating an
understanding of duty..I could even cite some that appear to be against
it...but I'm not going to because that's not the point I'm making. The
point I'm making is merely that basing the right's of personhood on
"duty" and "understanding the concept of duty" is flawed (this
paragraph) and extremely dangerous (paragraph above).
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Mar 12, '17, 7:03 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
You deliberately left out the word 'inherently'. You are good at destroying a strawman though. |
No need to be so cynical, I wasn't deliberately misrepresenting your argument.
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Mar 13, '17, 2:15 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben J
Well, just don't treat them badly or use
them as experiments, so that next time when the table is turned and they
rule over us, they do not have a reason to treat us badly.
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Ah, but even that is not an assurance, unfortunately. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
That would not happen unless our
descendants all lose their cognitive mind; and if that occurred the
resulting beings would not care about being ruled by apes.
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You are too serious, my friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
I, for one, care zip about the animal
cause. I will miss my dog for ever; but if Japanese choose to eat
dolphin, or if biomedical laboratories in our country feel the need to
work on chimpanzees, that is no skin off of me. My emotional capacity is
limited.
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We shouldn't base any such legal decisions on emotions. This is
not a binary. One can be for the considerate treatment of animals and
yet not have them enshrined with personhood and "rights".
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc
The problem started when we shifted from a
"duty-based" ethic to a "rights-based" ethic 100s of years ago. All the
ancient cultures were "duty-based" and rights were seen as the
reciprocal side of duties. The 10 Commandments are duty-based, as is
Hindu dharma.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc
Also, the duty-based cultures had their downsides, so I'm not saying we should go back to that.
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The important distinction here would be- How much of this ethic is
a human doing, a product of conditions and culture, and how much of it
is an objective fact, as per God's design. We can change and even
disregard one, but not the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
This idea of animals as persons is a Benthamite Utilitarian philosophic idea.
Utilitarian philosophy is the basis of modern Philosophy of Law.
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Yes, we seem to have a faulty philosophical underpinning these
days. I am convinced that our society is being held together by what is
left of the old Christian foundations. Once those are gone, I expect all
of society to go crazy and implode (as it is already doing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapyrusDouay
Perhaps a statement like "only those with
a human soul should have rights" would work, but duty and understanding
of duty does not work. At the end of the day "personhood" as far as we
are concerned is a theological arguement, not scientific.
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I also think that human rights can not be successfully defined
outside of a theological framework, where God is creator of all beings
and of objective truth. Anything else fails to properly ground human
rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Because once it is admitted that human life is nothing special, there would be no reason not to.
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Agreed. It's another step in the wrong direction. Once everyone is
special, no one is. As founder and president of PETA Ingrid Newkirk
said "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
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Mar 13, '17, 4:20 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
I'd just ask the apes. When they are capable of saying "yes", or "no"
then they would cease to be animals because they would actually have
free will. As of now though, they are just animals. Animals don't have
rights for a reason: God gave man dominion over them.
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Mar 13, '17, 5:16 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
What about chromosomes? Don't they--the apes--have a different number of
chromosomes? Would that make a difference enough not to qualify them as
person???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_genome_project
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Last edited by petra22; Mar 13, '17 at 5:18 am.
Reason: forgot part
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Mar 13, '17, 8:32 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanoAmerio
What sort of monkey business is this?
I certainly hope other countries do not ape such initiatives. |
I believe our country may be turning into another banana republic.
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Mar 13, '17, 9:12 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by fmchan52
I believe our country may be turning into another banana republic.
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Didn't the historian Edward Gibbon predict something like this?
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Mar 13, '17, 11:22 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulfromIowa
The way those apes treated Charlton Heston was just terrible.
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Mar 13, '17, 11:51 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithdancer
Didn't the historian Edward Gibbon predict something like this?
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Edward GIBBON------was that deliberate?
If not, still unintentionally funny. 
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Mar 13, '17, 12:42 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Irrelevant, you are comparing a person with a defect to a fully functioning animal. This is apples to oranges at its finest.
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Apples to bananas, in this case.
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Mar 13, '17, 5:18 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
I know it isn't apes, but perhaps if we have an infinite number of
monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters they may write a good
legal argument and win their freedom.
Or maybe they will waste their time writing Shakespeare and throwing **** at each other.
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Mar 13, '17, 5:25 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by vz71
I know it isn't apes, but perhaps if we
have an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of
typewriters they may write a good legal argument and win their freedom.
Or maybe they will waste their time writing Shakespeare and throwing **** at each other.
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I heard it said that if we put 10,000 monkeys in a room with 10,000
typewriters that they would eventually produce the Gettysburg Address.
Now, thanks to the internet, we know that's not true.
Ed ---- they should have a banana icon
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Mar 13, '17, 5:58 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryMelkite
Edward GIBBON------was that deliberate?
If not, still unintentionally funny. |
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Mar 13, '17, 6:00 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by vz71
I know it isn't apes, but perhaps if we
have an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of
typewriters they may write a good legal argument and win their freedom.
Or maybe they will waste their time writing Shakespeare and throwing **** at each other.
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That's it. I'm taking the last train to Clarksville!
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Mar 13, '17, 6:12 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge Antilles
Apples to bananas, in this case.
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Mar 14, '17, 5:29 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Because once it is admitted that human life is nothing special, there would be no reason not to.
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Hello, my name is Bryan and I am a heretic. But I'm getting better, promise.
Sts. Ignatious of Loyola and Pope Pius V, please pray for me that I will
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodeonist
I'd just ask the apes. When they are
capable of saying "yes", or "no" then they would cease to be animals
because they would actually have free will. As of now though, they are
just animals. Animals don't have rights for a reason: God gave man
dominion over them.
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Sorry. Not good enough. I think apes should have their day in
court. I think they should take a seat in the witness stand right next
to the judge and explain to the Court why they ought to be regarded as
"persons".
Now, different kinds of apes are of different species, so each kind
should present his own case. And we wouldn't want any minors testifying.
So perhaps the first witness should be an unrestrained, adult gorilla,
followed perhaps by an adult chimpanzee, then by an orangutan, and so
forth.
The court reporter, of course, would want to take the testimony down to be reviewed by higher courts.
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Mar 14, '17, 1:15 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2
I heard it said that if we put 10,000
monkeys in a room with 10,000 typewriters that they would eventually
produce the Gettysburg Address. Now, thanks to the internet, we know
that's not true.
Ed ---- they should have a banana icon |
But one thing they can do is store water in their cheeks from
drinking fountains in an LA park then squirt it at people who pass by.
Now that does make them quite human, wouldn't you say? At least as human as .....
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Mar 14, '17, 1:30 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc
But one thing they can do is store water
in their cheeks from drinking fountains in an LA park then squirt it at
people who pass by.
Now that does make them quite human, wouldn't you say? At least as human as ..... |
I did not know they could do that. Now if they would start building villages and such....
Ed
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Mar 14, '17, 1:55 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodeonist
I'd just ask the apes. When they are
capable of saying "yes", or "no" then they would cease to be animals
because they would actually have free will. As of now though, they are
just animals. Animals don't have rights for a reason: God gave man
dominion over them.
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Actually they can say "yes" or "no" -- at least thru sign language.
Has anyone brought up Koko the gorilla? See:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)
- http://www.koko.org/
Not only could Koko make up her own curse words -- such as "You are a
dirty toilet" -- but she can take photographs, one of which made it to
the cover of National Geographic (the photo of herself in a mirror). Now
how many of us have accomplished that?
They also have a sense of morality, saving lives of others and knowing that killing is bad -- see https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...terson/402307/
Does this rise to personhood? I don't know. It would be interesting if
someone tried to teach them a religion and if they could embrace it.
Since they say they have the mental capabilities of a 5-yr-old human
child, perhaps they can grasp and accept religion at the level of a
5-yr-old child.
I remember when I was about 5 and was attending Sunday school at that
age. One day I thought I saw God on TV (it was Pres. Eisenhower, but I
somehow knew he was really important, maybe God himself ). I rushed into the kitchen telling mom to come see the TV, saying, "I think it's God."
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Mar 14, '17, 2:05 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc
Actually they can say "yes" or "no" -- at least thru sign language.
Has anyone brought up Koko the gorilla? See:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)
- http://www.koko.org/
Not only could Koko make up her own curse words -- such as "You are a
dirty toilet" -- but she can take photographs, one of which made it to
the cover of National Geographic (the photo of herself in a mirror). Now
how many of us have accomplished that?
They also have a sense of morality, saving lives of others and knowing that killing is bad -- see https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...terson/402307/
Does this rise to personhood? I don't know. It would be interesting if
someone tried to teach them a religion and if they could embrace it.
Since they say they have the mental capabilities of a 5-yr-old human
child, perhaps they can grasp and accept religion at the level of a
5-yr-old child.
I remember when I was about 5 and was attending Sunday school at that
age. One day I thought I saw God on TV (it was Pres. Eisenhower, but I
somehow knew he was really important, maybe God himself ). I rushed into the kitchen telling mom to come see the TV, saying, "I think it's God." |
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Mar 14, '17, 2:15 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Another thought -- regarding the OP's linked article and that
"personhood" does not necessarily apply only to humans -- is the
question, "Should corporations be persons?" Or, rather shouldn't
corporations be stripped of their personhood, and that it was a very bad
mistake to make them person in the 1st place.
For instance, they have no morality whatsoever -- in fact by law they
have to put "fiduciary responsibility" above life & death issues.
They cannot be imprisoned for their wrong-doings, no matter how many
people might be harmed and killed by them. They cannot die, but they can
hide their assets and resurrect if they see a huge lawsuit coming their
way that might put them out of business (for harming lots of people or
such).
Many large multinational corporations are sort of like monsters roaming
the earth, evading national laws and regs, gobbling up resources and
excreting pollution and products, stomping on people, squeezing the life
(or livelihoods) out of them.
Perhaps we never would have given personhood to such monsters, if we had
known back in the 1800s how big they'd grow and how much harm to us
they'd be doing to people around the world today.
I'm not saying to put them out of business, only take away their special
privileges of personhood, esp the ones that allow them rise above local
and national laws and regs meant to protect our health and lives, and
to buy governments and control us and help their own interests that go
against ours.
If corporations can be persons, why not apes? Or, I'm okay with apes not
being persons, as long as corporations can be stripped of their
personhood.
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Mar 14, '17, 5:49 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Corporations are "persons" only in a legal sense, to keep their heads
from going into financial ruin over the fate of the corporation. Just as
the word corporation has the root for "body," but no-one thinks that
they reallly have human bodies.
Prior to corporate capitalism, proprietors or partners in business went
into poverty if their business failed. The purpose of corporate
"personhood", unlike animal personhood, is to protect real people.
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
I find it interesting how some folks struggle with this idea yet will
immediately sign on to abortion with little to no consideration of the
facts.
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Mar 14, '17, 9:34 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
I find it interesting how some folks
struggle with this idea yet will immediately sign on to abortion with
little to no consideration of the facts.
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Sadly, the proponents of animal rights are also likely to favor abortion.
ICXC NIKA
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Mar 14, '17, 9:49 pm
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Sadly, the proponents of animal rights are also likely to favor abortion.
ICXC NIKA
|
Secular left-wing causes are expected to unify by elite leaders in
order to destroy their opposition without any thought whatsoever of
their differences.
As someone who works in environmental circles, most people assume I am
more secular leftist than orthodox Catholic and expect me to just sign
on to things, well not so much animal rights but so-called gay
"marriage" because it's 
and they have "friends" who I guess need anonymous, unknown 3rd party
support even though it's like....the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But you get the idea.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Mar 15, '17, 7:36 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Sadly, the proponents of animal rights are also likely to favor abortion.
ICXC NIKA
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OTOH, proponents of the "rights of nature" are likely to be
pro-life.....mainly because they happen to be rural folk suffering from
things like fracking harming and killing them, and harming and devaluing
their property. Those folks tend to be church-going, God-fearing folks
steeped in the ole time religion and against abortion. (Tho some of
their babies may be "naturally" aborting or miscarrying due to the
pollution they are suffering.)
One of the only ways they can fight to protect their families' lives
from the pollution harm is to claim that the land or the water bodies
have rights. Wild law (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_law
), since apparently corporations have the right to come in and pollute
and kill people do to the various ways our legal system has become
warped over the past 200 years to favor financial interests over life
interests.
So there are 2 legal strategies to fight this -- trying to reclaim
"community rights" to determine their own fate from the pre-Constitution
past over marauding "corporation rights" (communities do not have the
right to ban "legal uses" of corps, no matter how many people are dying
from those "legal uses") ....
.... and/or going forward and trying to claim the "rights of nature," of (for example) water bodies not to be polluted.
See "Earth At Risk part 4 - Thomas Linzey of the CELDF Explains why the constitution is for Rich People" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjYT-RObWv4
And Linzey's org, the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund at http://celdf.org/
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1
"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi
"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
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Mar 15, '17, 11:58 am
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
Secular left-wing causes are expected to
unify by elite leaders in order to destroy their opposition without any
thought whatsoever of their differences.
As someone who works in environmental circles, most people assume I am
more secular leftist than orthodox Catholic and expect me to just sign
on to things, well not so much animal rights but so-called gay
"marriage" because it's
and they have "friends" who I guess need anonymous, unknown 3rd party
support even though it's like....the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But you get the idea. |
William F. Buckley — 'Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other
views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are
other views.'
Ed
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Mar 15, '17, 1:44 pm
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Join Date: May 20, 2010
Posts: 5,187
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2
William F. Buckley — 'Liberals claim to
want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended
to discover that there are other views.'Ed
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Yeah, after Christianity came on the scene, how can there be other views?
That is, liberal or even radical on social issues (I think Jesus was
actually a radical on these), and conservative on personal issues (like
controlling oneself).
I was reared a Republican and Christian (Presbyterian), but when I got
older and started reading the Bible and Jesus calling out "You brood of
vipers" (to pompous, self-righteous, hypocritical elites of the time), I
realized he was pretty much a radical, demanding radical,
self-sacrificing love of neighbor, the poor, the outsider, even the
enemy. Fancy that.
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1
"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi
"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
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Mar 15, '17, 8:29 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Posts: 21,626
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
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=lynnvinc;14540060]Yeah, after Christianity came on the scene, how can there be other views?
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One of the biggest pitfalls for Catholicism in the last 500 years
is that too many Catholics have become Protestant and even Puritan. This
has eroded away at the ability of the Church to ultimately hold its own
and spread.
I believe the contemporary Church has seen new wisdom in listening to
the other sides. My most recent experience was watching part of a
Planned Parenthood video narrated by Lena Dunham who noted some women
turned to Sanger because they would have killed themselves before
getting pregnant again.
I consider things like that to be useful information.
Besides, yelling in an echo chamber is boring and not what Christianity was meant for.
Quote:
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That is, liberal or even radical on social issues (I think Jesus was
actually a radical on these), and conservative on personal issues (like
controlling oneself).
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Jesus was a radical. But radical can be good or bad. When He died,
he asked God to forgive them, for they knew not what they did.
Essentially meaning that the intentions for at least some of those
wanting Him crucified were good and perhaps others were ignorant, others
just caught up in the moment of the crowd mentality.
Quote:
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I was reared a Republican and Christian (Presbyterian), but when I got
older and started reading the Bible and Jesus calling out "You brood of
vipers" (to pompous, self-righteous, hypocritical elites of the time), I
realized he was pretty much a radical, demanding radical,
self-sacrificing love of neighbor, the poor, the outsider, even the
enemy. Fancy that.
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I think that was John the Baptist. But it just goes to show how the dim light scandal is viewed in.
People should consider that whenever they make excuses on-line and
actually think others by them based on appeal to authority or past
experiences.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Mar 15, '17, 8:33 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Posts: 21,626
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2
William F. Buckley — 'Liberals claim to
want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended
to discover that there are other views.'
Ed
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As Milo recently noted, the SJW left is making all of the same mistakes the Protestant right in America made in the 1990s.
Even now "married" gay atheist liberal Democrat former Young Turks employee Dave Rubin is "unsafe" for USC students.
I think we've gone from Buckley's quote to
"When they came for the Gypsies, I was silent because I wasn't a Gypsy.
When they came for the Jews, I was silent because I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for the Catholics..........."
You get the idea.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Mar 16, '17, 4:23 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: May 20, 2010
Posts: 5,187
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
One of the biggest pitfalls for
Catholicism in the last 500 years is that too many Catholics have become
Protestant and even Puritan. This has eroded away at the ability of the
Church to ultimately hold its own and spread.
I believe the contemporary Church has seen new wisdom in listening to
the other sides. My most recent experience was watching part of a
Planned Parenthood video narrated by Lena Dunham who noted some women
turned to Sanger because they would have killed themselves before
getting pregnant again.
I consider things like that to be useful information.
Besides, yelling in an echo chamber is boring and not what Christianity was meant for.
Jesus was a radical. But radical can be good or bad. When He died, he
asked God to forgive them, for they knew not what they did. Essentially
meaning that the intentions for at least some of those wanting Him
crucified were good and perhaps others were ignorant, others just caught
up in the moment of the crowd mentality.
I think that was John the Baptist. But it just goes to show how the dim light scandal is viewed in.
People should consider that whenever they make excuses on-line and
actually think others by them based on appeal to authority or past
experiences.
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My post about :no other views" was "tongue-in-cheek."
I think Catholicism has always been a "big tent" religion, at least in modern times.
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1
"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi
"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
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Mar 16, '17, 4:46 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: August 31, 2010
Posts: 5,368
Religion: Eastern Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
One of the biggest pitfalls for
Catholicism in the last 500 years is that too many Catholics have become
Protestant and even Puritan. This has eroded away at the ability of the
Church to ultimately hold its own and spread.
I believe the contemporary Church has seen new wisdom in listening to
the other sides. My most recent experience was watching part of a
Planned Parenthood video narrated by Lena Dunham who noted some women
turned to Sanger because they would have killed themselves before
getting pregnant again.
I consider things like that to be useful information.
Besides, yelling in an echo chamber is boring and not what Christianity was meant for.
Jesus was a radical. But radical can be good or bad. When He died, he
asked God to forgive them, for they knew not what they did. Essentially
meaning that the intentions for at least some of those wanting Him
crucified were good and perhaps others were ignorant, others just caught
up in the moment of the crowd mentality.
I think that was John the Baptist. But it just goes to show how the dim light scandal is viewed in.
People should consider that whenever they make excuses on-line and
actually think others by them based on appeal to authority or past
experiences.
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.
One thing, though........when Lena Dunham actually sort of sideways has a "point," I KNOW we live in absurd times.
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Mar 16, '17, 6:29 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: May 26, 2007
Posts: 26,874
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Do Apes Deserve ‘Personhood’ Rights? Lawyer Heads to N.Y. Supreme Court to Make Case
Anti-Reality Times. Or Whatever I (meaning certain groups) Think Is Real Is Real -- even if it's total nonsense.
Ed
Reality is boring, and for worshipers of the god Change, change is the only suitable offering even if it contradicts reality.
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