Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtav
Which doesn't mean the Clintons are responsible. Clinton voters, on the other hand...
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Clinton Campaign Agrees to Back Jill Stein's Election Recount Effort: Lawyer
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016...effort-n688601
Nov 26, '16, 9:54 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Ok so the last I saw for the projected electoral vote was:
Mr. Trump 290
Mrs. Clinton 232
Wisconsin has 10 electoral votes, say Mrs. Clinton wins on recount then we have
Mr. Trump 280
Mrs. Clinton 242
She still loses the election, so, in reality, what is the point 
This is as bad as the popular vote issue, close to 2,000,000 for Mrs. Clinton.
Approximately 219,000,000 eligible voters
only about half are registered: 109,500,000
of that only about 55% voted: 60,225,000
Margin of error is around 2% for either manual or electronic count add
to that the number of fraudulent votes (the dead, undocumented, identity
theft etc...) is around 0.5% we have
1,204,500 + 301,125 = 1,505,625 so the 2,000,000 is still so close the
margin of error that statistically Mr. Trump and Mrs. Clinton are tied
in the popular vote; thus, It is potentially likely that a manual
recount in all 50 states would swing the popular vote to Mr. Trump.
(Sad really, approximately 28% of the eligible voters ( easy
math 1 in 4) decided this crucial vote, sad, so sad... how many people
in our Military have died and been mangled; how many Military families
have suffered the loss of husbands, wives, daughters, sons, loved ones
so that 160 million people could sit on their backends instead of taking
the 10 minutes of their lives to help run this country.  )
Good or bad, I'll be glad when this is finally over.
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Nov 26, '16, 9:57 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
Trust in the system has already been undermined. Recounts will not serve any purpose.
I find it troubling that the Russian got who they wanted, but then of course so did the KKK.
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Well, both are going to be disappointed since Trump will not be
persecuting minorities even though that's the false narrative pushed the
left since they can't win on the arguments.
It sounded like Mr. Putin is happy to work to restore relations with the
USA which Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton messed up.
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Nov 26, '16, 9:58 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamQ
Dr. Stein doesn't believe there is any
real evidence of fraud, and she doesn't believe that a recount will
change the outcome of this election. She's simply sending people out on a
frustrating fishing expedition in the weeks leading up to Christmas
while wasting millions of dollars and undermining the public's trust in
their local election process.
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Many in the Green Party are running from what she's doing.
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Nov 26, '16, 10:14 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosyAnne
In October, November 8th couldn't come
fast enough for me just so we could all move on with our lives and leave
the bitterness behind.
Now I can't wait until January 20th, 2017. That is a looooooooong two months away.
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I would hope that would help, but I am wondering if the abandoning
of logic is not systemic in the bitterness of those whose candidate
lost. I get the bitterness. I do not understand losing the ability to
reason in the passion to insult Trump.
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 Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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Nov 26, '16, 10:21 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
White House insists hackers didn't sway election, even as recount begins
The Obama administration said it has seen no evidence of hackers
tampering with the 2016 presidential election, even as recount
proceedings began in Wisconsin.
“We stand behind our election results, which accurately reflect the will
of the American people,” a senior administration official told POLITICO
late Friday.
“The federal government did not observe any increased level of malicious
cyber activity aimed at disrupting our electoral process on election
day,” the official added. “We believe our elections were free and fair
from a cybersecurity perspective.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...recount-231849
It may only be wishful thinking from the Left that the results of the election were affected by outside.
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Nov 26, '16, 11:03 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliam
Clinton Campaign Will Participate in Stein’s State Recounts
Hillary Clinton’s campaign lawyer announced plans to participate in vote
recounts of Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan if they take place,
yet doesn’t expect to overturn the election of Donald Trump as
president.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/ar...state-recounts
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Perhaps I am dense, but what is the point? To those who favor this, Trump won. Get over it.
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Nov 26, '16, 11:12 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
Perhaps I am dense, but what is the point? To those who favor this, Trump won. Get over it.
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Two immediate points come to mind. One, leftists want to make Trump presidency appear illegitimate.
And two, after all the braggadocio about Trump having no chance of
winning, they just can't get over it. They'll hold on to whatever little
scrap of hope there is that somehow, things will still turn out the way
they want.
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Nov 26, '16, 11:19 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
Perhaps I am dense, but what is the point? To those who favor this, Trump won. Get over it.
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Well, Trump did say the election was rigged. Just saying.
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Nov 26, '16, 11:31 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
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Nov 26, '16, 11:42 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeniseNY
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Thanks for the link.
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Nov 26, '16, 11:46 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
If trump does it its unamerican, a threat to democracy, and being a sore loser.
When somebody else does it its heroic?
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Nov 26, '16, 12:08 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
Perhaps I am dense, but what is the point? To those who favor this, Trump won. Get over it.
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It's a way to verify if he did in fact win.
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Nov 26, '16, 12:35 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
It's a way to verify if he did in fact win.
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It's a waste of money, but yes, it is a way to verify the results
as remaining unchanged. I mean, there's a nearly 50,000 vote gap in
Wisconsin. Probably better to try and overturn Michigan which has a
narrower margin - I think about 11,000 votes. Pennsylvania has a nearly
70,000 vote gap.
The problem for Stein is that she'd need to overturn all three to move
the election to Clinton's favor and then hope for about seven of eight
faithless electors to be cast her way to force it to the House of
Representatives and then hope the Republican-controlled House decides to
elect her President.
What a waste of time and money.
Maybe the hope is that one of the three state get overturned so people
think Trump won illegitamately and pound that over and over for the next
four years.
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Nov 26, '16, 12:56 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by z_0101
This is as bad as the popular vote issue, close to 2,000,000 for Mrs. Clinton.
Approximately 219,000,000 eligible voters
only about half are registered: 109,500,000
of that only about 55% voted: 60,225,000
Margin of error is around 2% for either manual or electronic count
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How do you figure the margin of error is 2%?
That would be true if you are using a random sample size of around 2500. (Note I said random and very few polls are)
But when your sample is 130,000,000 actual voters it would be much less
than .01%, (.0003% by my calculations) presuming all the votes have been
counted the first time.
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Nov 26, '16, 1:56 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by z_0101
Ok so the last I saw for the projected electoral vote was:
Mr. Trump 290
Mrs. Clinton 232.
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Actually, it is Trump 306 and Clinton 232 right now
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ele...ident/map.html
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Nov 26, '16, 2:01 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
I support a recount when the margin is so close. And I'm a trump
supporter. What I don't support is the double standard that applies and
if trump had initiated a recount what would have happens. I also don't
like the media acting like this is any sort of story with legs.
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Nov 26, '16, 4:27 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien
This isn't pushed by the Clintons.
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yes. Hillary has signed on now too.
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Nov 26, '16, 4:51 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
It's a waste of money, but yes, it is a
way to verify the results as remaining unchanged. I mean, there's a
nearly 50,000 vote gap in Wisconsin. Probably better to try and overturn
Michigan which has a narrower margin - I think about 11,000 votes.
Pennsylvania has a nearly 70,000 vote gap.
The problem for Stein is that she'd need to overturn all three to move
the election to Clinton's favor and then hope for about seven of eight
faithless electors to be cast her way to force it to the House of
Representatives and then hope the Republican-controlled House decides to
elect her President.
What a waste of time and money.
Maybe the hope is that one of the three state get overturned so people
think Trump won illegitamately and pound that over and over for the next
four years. |
It's their money, not mine.
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Nov 26, '16, 6:28 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Fair is fair, it's time to pursue charges against Hillary Clinton.
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Nov 26, '16, 6:33 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
Fair is fair, it's time to pursue charges against Hillary Clinton.
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First things first, Donald has to get into the whitehouse before
that can even happen. He's saying he won't pursue charges, but who
knows.
That may be another reason why there's so much scrambling to find
whatever way possible to keep him outta there (death threats, vote
recounts, whatever's next). Maybe it's not just Hillary that needs to
keep a lid on things, there might be a whole lot of folks in the swamp
that don't want any outsiders nosing around.
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Nov 26, '16, 7:14 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
How do you figure the margin of error is 2%?
That would be true if you are using a random sample size of around 2500. (Note I said random and very few polls are)
But when your sample is 130,000,000 actual voters it would be much less
than .01%, (.0003% by my calculations) presuming all the votes have been
counted the first time.
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General statistics?
Schneier on Security
Error Rates of Hand-Counted Voting Systems (link)
The error rate for hand-counted ballots is about two percent.
All voting systems have nonzero error rates. This doesn't surprise
technologists, but does surprise the general public. There's a myth out
there that elections are perfectly accurate, down to the single vote.
They're not. If the vote is within a few percentage points, they're
likely a statistical tie. (The problem, of course, is that elections
must produce a single winner.)
Survey Sample Sizes and Margin of Error (link)
The margin of error in a sample = 1 divided by the square root of the number of people in the sample
Estimation and Margins of Error (this link talks about the general polling error; however, still pertinate to the 2% I stated)
herein however, they give 3% at the 95% confidence interval, I reduced
the 3% to 2% based upon other peer reviewed journals, one such was:
Hand counts of votes may cause errors, says new Rice U. study
Research on postelection auditing procedures finds error rates of up to 2 percent
Amy Hodges, Rice News (link)
In this document they cite 1% to 2.5% potential error https://yali.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2016/01/Assessing-and-Verifying-Election-Results-Summary-Document.pdf
(PDF - Link)
The 0.5% potentially fraudulent votes... I
had intended to edit that to say "invalid" votes... that I will admit
to being more my own number; however, based upon a lot of reading. The
biggest problem here being that there appears to be very little data to
actually support one side or the other when it comes to the potentially
fraudulent/invalid votes.
You get sites such as FactCheck.org that claim that there is no fraud (link) and The Washington Post (link)
and yet their evidence is that, while there have been a few "isolated
cases, there really isn't any evidence" to sites and documents that
claim a much higher percentage -upwards to 2 and 3%. Then we have
President Obama outright telling undocumented persons not to worry about
being deported if they go vote because no-one will know that they voted
and with around 11 million undocumented workers in the US and President
Obama apparently encouraging theme to vote ( CAF Thread here: Re: Voter fraud: California man finds 83 ballots stacked outside his home Post#14 ) and we do know that there are cases of documented voter fraud ( Washington times (link))
So, to arrive a the 0.5%, I took all of the figures of potentially
invalid votes together and split the difference, erring on the side of
caution, then took a simple root-mean-square as one would do for
progressive errors in measurement.
I have degrees in Mathematical Sciences and Analytical Chemistry - kind of my stock in trade to know this information. 
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Nov 26, '16, 7:24 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
It's their money, not mine.
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I read that in PA it would take millions in taxpayer money. 
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Nov 26, '16, 8:26 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I support a recount when the margin is so
close. And I'm a trump supporter. What I don't support is the double
standard that applies and if trump had initiated a recount what would
have happens. I also don't like the media acting like this is any sort
of story with legs.
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This whole post-election nonsense stands on ZERO principle. This
is only securing the Rust Belt for Trump in 2020 and will help us win
back some Senate seats in 2018.
Just let them waste their money and let's keep the cameras rolling.
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Nov 27, '16, 6:35 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
It's their money, not mine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbideWithMe
I read that in PA it would take millions in taxpayer money. |
I'm from Wisconsin, and having been through some very tight
election cycles in the recent past, I can attest that if the margin is
within a certain range, the taxpayers will foot the bill. However, if it
is over a certain threshold, then the candidate would foot the bill.
I presume that similar laws are in place in Michigan and Pennsylvania.
The margin is wide enough in Wisconsin that Stein would be footing the
bill. Probably likewise in Pennsylvania. However, the margin is very
close in Michigan so the taxpayers there would likely have to pay.
Regardless of who's paying, it is a waste of money. Stein will not be
the next President of the US.....unless of course that really isn't her
goal.
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Nov 27, '16, 6:43 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
Regardless of who's paying, it is a waste of money. Stein will not be
the next President of the US.....unless of course that really isn't her
goal.
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It almost assuredly is not her goal.
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Nov 27, '16, 6:55 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
I'm from Wisconsin, and having been
through some very tight election cycles in the recent past, I can attest
that if the margin is within a certain range, the taxpayers will foot
the bill. However, if it is over a certain threshold, then the candidate
would foot the bill.
I presume that similar laws are in place in Michigan and Pennsylvania.
The margin is wide enough in Wisconsin that Stein would be footing the
bill. Probably likewise in Pennsylvania. However, the margin is very
close in Michigan so the taxpayers there would likely have to pay.
Regardless of who's paying, it is a waste of money. Stein will not be
the next President of the US.....unless of course that really isn't her
goal.
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Making the history books or setting some precedent maybe.
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Nov 27, '16, 7:00 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
I wouldn't mind a national recount. Limiting the votes to actual legal, living, citizens of the USA....
Hillary might not like it though....
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Nov 27, '16, 8:09 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I wouldn't mind a national recount. Limiting the votes to actual legal, living, citizens of the USA....
Hillary might not like it though....
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Nov 27, '16, 8:58 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I wouldn't mind a national recount. Limiting the votes to actual legal, living, citizens of the USA....
Hillary might not like it though....
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Maybe it's time for this side of the people to go protest. What a
farce it is to drag the nation into this fiasco and for what????
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Nov 27, '16, 9:59 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
I'm from Wisconsin, and having been
through some very tight election cycles in the recent past, I can attest
that if the margin is within a certain range, the taxpayers will foot
the bill. However, if it is over a certain threshold, then the candidate
would foot the bill.
I presume that similar laws are in place in Michigan and Pennsylvania.
The margin is wide enough in Wisconsin that Stein would be footing the
bill. Probably likewise in Pennsylvania. However, the margin is very
close in Michigan so the taxpayers there would likely have to pay.
Regardless of who's paying, it is a waste of money. Stein will not be
the next President of the US.....unless of course that really isn't her
goal.
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Thanks, I hope that's the case in PA if a recount occurs.
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Nov 27, '16, 10:16 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I wouldn't mind a national recount. Limiting the votes to actual legal, living, citizens of the USA.....
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Now how exactly would you do that? And making sure there is no
voter suppression at the same time? They have been deporting legal
citizens too, or haven't you heard?
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Nov 27, '16, 10:34 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Stein states her reason for a recount in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania as:
Quote:
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“We are raising money to demand recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan, and
Pennsylvania-- three states where the data suggests a significant need
to verify machine-counted vote totals,” the Stein campaign writes. “We
cannot guarantee a recount will happen in any of these states we are
targeting. We can only pledge we will demand recounts in those states.”
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What a coincidence that these are three states Trump won that Clinton expected to win.
Hmm. In Pa, Trump won by 70,000 votes. Trump lost NH by less than 3,000
votes, and Minnesota by roughly 40,000 votes, and Stein isn't curious
about them. 
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Nov 27, '16, 10:39 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
Stein states her reason for a recount in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania as:
What a coincidence that these are three states Trump won that Clinton expected to win.
Hmm. In Pa, Trump won by 70,000 votes. Trump lost NH by less than 3,000
votes, and Minnesota by roughly 40,000 votes, and Stein isn't curios
about them. |
Yes, This.
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Nov 27, '16, 10:40 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosyAnne
First things first, Donald has to get
into the whitehouse before that can even happen. He's saying he won't
pursue charges, but who knows.
That may be another reason why there's so much scrambling to find
whatever way possible to keep him outta there (death threats, vote
recounts, whatever's next). Maybe it's not just Hillary that needs to
keep a lid on things, there might be a whole lot of folks in the swamp
that don't want any outsiders nosing around.
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And this. I agree January 20th can't come quick enough for me either.
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Nov 27, '16, 10:56 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by z_0101
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One would have to look at the actual ballot form to determine
that, I would think. Those chads in Florida, for example, could have
been taken several ways, especially with write-in candidates.
That's assuming p is almost equal to q. And you're talking two std deviations, right?
Introduction to Mathematical Statistics, by Paul G. Hoel
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Nov 27, '16, 11:14 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanny
And this. I agree January 20th can't come quick enough for me either.
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That's when the honeymoon starts. But I'm sure that Ryan and McConnell will make it short.
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Nov 27, '16, 12:21 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
One would have to look at the actual
ballot form to determine that, I would think. Those chads in Florida,
for example, could have been taken several ways, especially with
write-in candidates.
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they have actually looked various errors such as stray marks, chads, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
That's assuming p is almost equal to q. And you're talking two std deviations, right?
Introduction to Mathematical Statistics, by Paul G. Hoel
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I hadn't intended to give a treatise on basic statistics and I think this does nothing more than cloud the issue...
I don't have access to Dr. Hoel's textbook; however, given the title, I
can only guess that you are talking about Q as in q=1-p as one would
have in a Bernoulli Trail (which this could potentially classified as
such if the examiner's own bias doesn't preclude the equal probability
of success/failure of the individual trail). However, I suspect that you
are really after, the q-value that takes into account only those trail
results that are below the selected threshold (which I think more likely
given that offsetting the examiner bias might have the taken into
account), unlike a p-value that deals with percentage of false positives
to expect for the entire number of trails being ran?
In this case, the sample population should be large enough that the
results would approach the population; thus, it wouldn't be unreasonable
that these could potentially approach parity depending on what your
threshold criteria is as one could see in testing such as in RNA
sequencing - (this document has a much better explanation than I care to
get into within a forum not related to mathematics: ( http://www.science.smith.edu/cmbs/wp...in-RNA-Seq.pdf).
In either case, 95% confidence interval wouldn't be unreasonable for
the vote count against error in the determination of the intended
selection.
Either accept the 2% or don't, it really doesn't matter to me; however,
the 2% I suggested in my earlier post for the potential erroneous vote
count wasn't a value from my own research but the value as given in the
research of several other individuals, peer reviewed in many cases, and included in the information in a government publication.; thus, experts within the field.
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Nov 27, '16, 12:40 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
Now how exactly would you do that? And
making sure there is no voter suppression at the same time? They have
been deporting legal citizens too, or haven't you heard?
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Just checking ID would be a start. Or enforcing laws that prevent voter fraud.
Wouldn't have many illegal citizens voting if a punishment were forthcoming. Don't see a lot of voter fraud with felons.
I could have voted at the very least 20 times in my city and probably another 20 in my former state.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:00 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
A new and ridiculous tweet from Donald Trump:
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the
popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally
12:30 PM - 27 Nov 2016
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016...ts-sad-n688761
He just can't stand the fact that Clinton won the popular vote by at least 2 million votes.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:08 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
A new and ridiculous tweet from Donald Trump:
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the
popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally
12:30 PM - 27 Nov 2016
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016...ts-sad-n688761
He just can't stand the fact that Clinton won the popular vote by at least 2 million votes. |
He shouldn't care. The election nationwide popular vote means nothing.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:18 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
He shouldn't care. The election nationwide popular vote means nothing.
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Mr. Trump's loss of the popular vote by such a large margin (over 2
million votes) is still meaningful in that it demonstrates that he did
not receive any sort of overwhelming popular "mandate" for many of the
policies he will likely try to implement. A shift of only about 107,000
votes in only three states (Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania) would
have left Clinton the winner of both the electoral college and the
popular vote. That 107,000 votes that allowed Trump to carry the
electoral college is only a fraction of the vote margin by which Clinton
won the popular vote.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:19 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I could have voted at the very least 20 times in my city and probably another 20 in my former state.
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That's another thing. Too many have dual addresses. In Florida
they call them "snowbirds," spend 6 months there in the winter, 6 months
at a northern city.
I hope the polling places don't accept those with PO boxes and such.
The homeless are another story.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:21 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
He shouldn't care. The election nationwide popular vote means nothing.
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He shouldn't but he knows he doesn't have the political mandate he wishes he had.
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Nov 27, '16, 2:45 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
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=Thorolfr;14312080]Mr. Trump's loss of the popular vote by such a large
margin (over 2 million votes) is still meaningful in that it
demonstrates that he did not receive any sort of overwhelming popular
"mandate" for many of the policies he will likely try to implement.
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It means he was very unpopular in two states - New York, but
mainly California. All that means is Clinton got the electoral votes
from New York and California. That's all it means. It means nothing to
any other state and how they voted.
Quote:
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A shift of only about 107,000 votes in only three states (Wisconsin,
Michigan and Pennsylvania) would have left Clinton the winner of both
the electoral college and the popular vote. That 107,000 votes that
allowed Trump to carry the electoral college is only a fraction of the
vote margin by which Clinton won the popular vote.
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70,000 give or take in PA. 27,000 give or take in Wisconsin.
11,000 give or take in Michigan. Those numbers only mean something in
those states. But you are right, had that happened, or Clinton had
carried Florida and North Carolina, and she's president.
It is a mistake, however, to think of the election in terms of a
plebiscite of a national vote, because it isn't. It is actually 51
elections in 50 sovereign states and DC. The national popular vote means
nothing.
Jon
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Nov 27, '16, 3:11 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
In this article http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us...al-debate.html
A quote from there...
“That’s horrifying,” Mrs. Clinton replied. “Let’s be clear about what
he is saying and what that means. He is denigrating — he is talking
down our democracy. And I am appalled that someone who is the nominee of
one of our two major parties would take that position.”
No mention of Clinton's original stance of it being "horrifying" from any of the big media.
Does anyone really have any doubts how in the tank the mainstream media is for the party of death?
Nov 27, '16, 3:23 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
Now how exactly would you do that? And
making sure there is no voter suppression at the same time? They have
been deporting legal citizens too, or haven't you heard?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
That's another thing. Too many have dual
addresses. In Florida they call them "snowbirds," spend 6 months there
in the winter, 6 months at a northern city.
I hope the polling places don't accept those with PO boxes and such.
The homeless are another story.
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Well it will never be perfect. There will be fraud. Usually on the
democrat or liberal side. I know many social service types who
understand how to manipulate those on the fringes to vote the way they
want. Unions have been downright mafia/fascist in thier propoganda and
strong arming of members to vote a certain way. But the estimate of 3
million illegal immigrant votes this election should alarm anyone who is
a patriot. Imagine 3 million Americans crossing a border and voting in
another country's democracy. Well, maybe Mexico wouldn't be a place to
flee from if we did that, or Canada would have a better PM....
As an American I view it as an act of war.
__________________
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Nov 27, '16, 3:33 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
He shouldn't care. The election nationwide popular vote means nothing.
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You got it!
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Nov 27, '16, 3:34 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
He shouldn't but he knows he doesn't have the political mandate he wishes he had.
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I doubt that the recount will change anything. But it's still
worth it just to get under Donald's skin. It seems to be working based
on the tweet storm from Trump Tower.
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Nov 27, '16, 3:52 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
I doubt that the recount will change
anything. But it's still worth it just to get under Donald's skin. It
seems to be working based on the tweet storm from Trump Tower.
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Lol. People still haven't learned that trump doesn't bluster for
its own sake. There is a method to his madness and you won't find out
till your side loses.
Funny how liberals don't get disturbed by the ridiculous protests and recount effort but by a tweet from trump.
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Nov 27, '16, 4:04 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
I doubt that the recount will change
anything. But it's still worth it just to get under Donald's skin. It
seems to be working based on the tweet storm from Trump Tower.
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That's wishful thinking.
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Nov 27, '16, 4:33 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
That's wishful thinking.
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Trump should accept the fact that no President will get a 100%
approval rating. In fact he should be happy to get 50%. That's
150,000,000 million who either despise you or don't care for you. Big
shocker for one who never had held a political office.
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Nov 27, '16, 4:38 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
Trump should accept the fact that no
President will get a 100% approval rating. In fact he should be happy to
get 50%. That's 150,000,000 million who either despise you or don't
care for you. Big shocker for one who never had held a political office.
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I officiated high school football and basketball for a long time. Never felt the love. 
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Nov 27, '16, 6:26 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Trump tweeted today, "In addition to winning the Electoral College in a
landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people
who voted illegally."
I'm no fan of the blogger Matt Walsh, but I do find his post on this...intriguing:
Quote:
Two problems:
First, it's an abject lie. There is no evidence that "millions" of votes
were made illegally. The future president is making wild,
conspiratorial claims without the slightest concern about whether those
claims have any relation to the truth whatsoever. I imagine him
employing this same tactic as president when it comes to matters of
national security, where lives are at stake, and it gives me a very
queasy feeling.
Second, the Clinton camp is trying to get a recount in several states.
The man who WON has now JUSTIFIED those recounts by claiming that
millions of votes were illegitimate. By his own words, a national
recount of every vote must be conducted. That's according to Trump
himself. The guy who won. The guy who won just questioned the legitimacy
of his own win.
And why? Because of his pride. Even though he won, he can't stomach the
idea that fewer people voted for him than Clinton. So, just to service
his damned vanity, he undermined his own win and called into question
the authenticity of a voting process that just resulted in him becoming
president.
We are in for four years of this ****, folks. And I'm not going to play
along. I refuse. Trump is wrong here. He's lying. He's being a prideful,
reckless idiot and he deserves to be raked over the coals for it. And
those who defend him on this deserve to be criticized right along with
him.
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Nov 27, '16, 6:32 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Trump tweeted today, "In addition to
winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if
you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally."
I'm no fan of the blogger Matt Walsh, but I do find his post on this...intriguing:
Quote:
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We are in for four years of this ****, folks. And I'm not going to play
along. I refuse. Trump is wrong here. He's lying. He's being a prideful,
reckless idiot and he deserves to be raked over the coals for it. And
those who defend him on this deserve to be criticized right along with
him.
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and so ends the right to free speech.
sigh
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Nov 27, '16, 6:40 pm
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Senior Member
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by z_0101
and so ends the right to free speech.
sigh
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Having freedom of speech doesn't protect one against criticism.
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Nov 27, '16, 6:41 pm
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Senior Member
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by queenofheartscv
I have no problem with Trump's tweet.
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He's flagrantly making false claims. This doesn't bother you?
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Nov 27, '16, 6:47 pm
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Banned
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
You have got to watch these Dems during recounts - they seem to be able
to find uncounted votes here, there, and everywhere. This was what
happened during the recount when Al Franken won as Senator in Minnesota
some years back - "uncounted" votes were conveniently popping up all
over the place.
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Nov 27, '16, 7:06 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adonia
You have got to watch these Dems during
recounts - they seem to be able to find uncounted votes here, there, and
everywhere. This was what happened during the recount when Al Franken
won as Senator in Minnesota some years back - "uncounted" votes were
conveniently popping up all over the place.
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Same thing happened to Dino Rossi in the Washington 2004 governor race.
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Nov 27, '16, 8:09 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
He's flagrantly making false claims. This doesn't bother you?
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You have no idea how many illegals voted.
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Nov 27, '16, 8:16 pm
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Junior Member
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adonia
You have got to watch these Dems during
recounts - they seem to be able to find uncounted votes here, there, and
everywhere. This was what happened during the recount when Al Franken
won as Senator in Minnesota some years back - "uncounted" votes were
conveniently popping up all over the place.
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Yep..
Can't wait for this again: 
Miraculous "missing" ballots found.
Felons voting in metro areas.
Many people voting twice.
And yet the courts seemed to always rule that these votes had to be counted.
The supposedly under-counted votes tilted more than 2/3 for the Democrat
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Dec 8, '16, 1:42 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
Trump used the media to his advantage
much better than Clinton. Not that the media favored him or anything. He
is just more expert at it.
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He may be skilled at using the media, but that fact is far
outweighed by the fact that the great majority of the media was biased
for Clinton (or any secular, pro-choice politician). The media may have
leaned towards Trump in the primaries, as opposed to conservative, pro
religious Republicans, but once he was perceived as somewhat prolife,
somewhat anti-secular agenda, heavily anti-big government, he was
trashed by most of the media.
Other than banning or limiting abortion, there is no greater priority in
my mind than breaking up the giant media corporations. Nobody should
own more than one cable channel, more than one major newspaper, more
than one TV station. This would break up some of the few conservative
empires too, which is fine with me, but by far the giant media
conglomerates are to the secular left.
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Dec 8, '16, 1:59 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by commenter
He may be skilled at using the media, but
that fact is far outweighed by the fact that the great majority of the
media was biased for Clinton (or any secular, pro-choice politician).
The media may have leaned towards Trump in the primaries, as opposed to
conservative, pro religious Republicans, but once he was perceived as
somewhat prolife, somewhat anti-secular agenda, heavily anti-big
government, he was trashed by most of the media.
Other than banning or limiting abortion, there is no greater priority in
my mind than breaking up the giant media corporations. Nobody should
own more than one cable channel, more than one major newspaper, more
than one TV station. This would break up some of the few conservative
empires too, which is fine with me, but by far the giant media
conglomerates are to the secular left.
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The media, of which I will include comedy news shows and late
night shows were pro trump I the primaries for 2 reasons. 1. Ratings
2. They ( wrongly) believed the best chance for Hillary would be to have her opponent be perceived as a clown.
Once the nomination was secured they ran with the idea of a brokered
convention and the end of the Republican Party. ( if that sounds
familiar it's because they are now running with an electoral college
fight..
I am still basking in the afterglow of this win.
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Dec 8, '16, 2:05 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
The media, of which I will include comedy
news shows and late night shows were pro trump I the primaries for 2
reasons. 1. Ratings
2. They ( wrongly) believed the best chance for Hillary would be to have her opponent be perceived as a clown.
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Hillary was more challenged with Sanders than with Trump.
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Dec 8, '16, 2:11 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
Hillary was more challenged with Sanders than with Trump.
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Well, she was challenged. I'm not sure more than trump. I wonder
if after a tone of reflection the DNC will rethink super delegates.
Though I think Bernie would have been beaten worse. I think they ran
thier toughest candidate. It played to a historical first in a time of
inclusion and she had experience and savvy. Without super delegates I'm
not sure sanders would have been seen as the direct challenger. But
because he could play the "unfair" card he garnered a lot of support.
Hillary should have played the gender card. It would have worked.
__________________
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Dec 9, '16, 3:08 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
 Recount update:
Quote:
Trump/Pence originally led Clinton/Kaine by 22,177. So far, not
including the City of Milwaukee, Clinton/Kaine have gained 61 more votes
than Trump/Pence, but still trail.
Including the December 7 results, Trump/Pence are up 495 votes,
Clinton/Kaine are up 556 votes, Castle/Bradley are up 20 votes,
Johnson/Weld are up 63 votes, Stein/Baraka are up 64 votes,
Moorehead/Lilly are up 8 votes, and De la Fuente/Steinberg are up 15
votes.
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Source:
https://www.google.com/amp/fox6now.c...?client=safari
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and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
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Dec 9, '16, 4:59 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Well, she was challenged. I'm not sure
more than trump. I wonder if after a tone of reflection the DNC will
rethink super delegates. Though I think Bernie would have been beaten
worse. I think they ran thier toughest candidate. It played to a
historical first in a time of inclusion and she had experience and
savvy. Without super delegates I'm not sure sanders would have been seen
as the direct challenger. But because he could play the "unfair" card
he garnered a lot of support.
Hillary should have played the gender card. It would have worked.
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I think she did play it and it did not work. She came with too much baggage and she was an uninspiring candidate.
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Dec 9, '16, 5:52 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
WI Elections Commission: Recount 82% complete; Clinton gains 61 votes on President-elect Trump
http://fox6now.com/2016/12/08/wiscon...t-elect-trump/
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Dec 9, '16, 6:15 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Hillary set her campaign strategy by focus group, not personal conviction.
Only Wall Street paid enough to hear her personal conviction on the issues.
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Dec 9, '16, 7:57 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
You must be thinking of someone else.
From the night of the election, I was resigned to having Trump as
president, and have even been looking for signs of hope from him that he
would be a unifier. What I do object to is the false narrative that
somehow this election was any sort of a resounding mandate to ignore the
desired policies of half the nation and cater only to the policies
favored by those who supported Trump. That would be a mistake.
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I'm inclined to agree with you here. When I think of clear
victories where the president-elect could be said to have a mandate, I
think of Reagan in 1984. Trump in 2016? Not so much. Where our nation is
at right now, I just don't think we'll see any blowouts for quite some
time in the presidential race.
Obviously, this doesn't effect the final income. But it is something
Trump—and all of us—should keep in mind. The country is divided on a
great many issues. We need to find ways to work together rather than
polarizing people even more than they already are.
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Dec 9, '16, 8:58 am
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
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I am still basking in the afterglow of this win.
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The nevertrumpers are the ones making it unavoidably enjoyable
with their hysterical reactions even to those of us who voted for others
in the primary.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Dec 9, '16, 2:23 pm
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 5859
Obviously, this doesn't effect the final
income. But it is something Trump—and all of us—should keep in mind. The
country is divided on a great many issues. We need to find ways to work
together rather than polarizing people even more than they already are.
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As long as we have winners and losers in elections, this is not
too likely to happen. Probably the only President I know who was able to
unite the country was Gerald Ford, who never received votes for the top
office.
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Dec 9, '16, 3:08 pm
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Regular Member
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe 5859
I'm inclined to agree with you here. When
I think of clear victories where the president-elect could be said to
have a mandate, I think of Reagan in 1984. Trump in 2016? Not so much.
Where our nation is at right now, I just don't think we'll see any
blowouts for quite some time in the presidential race.
Obviously, this doesn't effect the final income. But it is something
Trump—and all of us—should keep in mind. The country is divided on a
great many issues. We need to find ways to work together rather than
polarizing people even more than they already are.
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It would be nice to have unity, but realistically it won't happen - probably should not happen, in our lifetime. We don't have liberals vs conservatives anymore, we have:
1. much of the nation who believes some truths are absolute, abortion is
murder, life a gift from God; and marriage something created by God,
both life and marriage predating government;
and...
2. much of the nation, backed by the media, believes society can
redefine rights of life, and the nature of marriage, however it wants;
that government is the agency that can redefine these, and other rights,
rather than rights being inherent, from a Creator.
The craving for unity at any cost will lead to continuing acceptance of #2, above.
Those who continue to believe in #1 above will continue to be attacked
as divisive. So be it. We have our obvious enemies, but our
not-so-obvious enemies are those who crave compromise, who want to
"bring us together" in reconciliation, who really lead us towards #2.
There are situations where if you do the right thing you will be
attacked for polarizing. But we really are not driving people apart, we
simply are pointing out where people are actually standing. It is
dishonest to pretend this is still the 1960s, with liberals and
conservatives, all of whom still believed in absolute dogmas of truth
and right, but needed to compromise on the non essentials. It is a
different world now.
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Dec 9, '16, 5:43 pm
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Veteran Member
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Posts: 10,598
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by commenter
It would be nice to have unity, but realistically it won't happen - probably should not happen, in our lifetime. We don't have liberals vs conservatives anymore, we have:
1. much of the nation who believes some truths are absolute, abortion is
murder, life a gift from God; and marriage something created by God,
both life and marriage predating government;
and...
2. much of the nation, backed by the media, believes society can
redefine rights of life, and the nature of marriage, however it wants;
that government is the agency that can redefine these, and other rights,
rather than rights being inherent, from a Creator.
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It is apparent in so many ways that the divide over abortion was
not even in the top 10 among reasons people got so polarized. Just a few
reasons: Trump's lackluster support of the pro-life issues. The
noticeable lack of much campaigning by either side on the abortion
issue. The issues that really marked the divide: Immigration. Terrorism.
Gun control. Jobs. Foreign trade agreements. Health care. These are the
issues the candidates talked about in all their campaign speeches.
These are the issues that the candidates talked about in the debates.
These are the issues that average voters talked about when asked. And
many of these issues are issues for which some compromise is possible.
To say now that there should not be unity is to ignore the fact that
half the nation prefers positions contrary to those Trump campaigned on.
And I am not talking about abortion. Very few people are. It is wrong
to pretend that the polarization in the US is over mainly over this
issue and resign ourselves to four years of permanent distrust of half
the population of the country. We do have to live with each other
whether we agree with their politics or not.
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Dec 9, '16, 7:18 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,205
Religion: Still Catholic......
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
I think she did play it and it did not work. She came with too much baggage and she was an uninspiring candidate.
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No, the media and talking heads tried to play that card but she
didn't until her concession speech which was almost SOLEY about the
"female".
I am a conservative, I detest the clintons and have little respect for
the liberal mindset, but if her campaigned focused on the feminine, not
only would she have won but she might have even had voters like me with
my four girls with me in the voting booth.
As it stood, she campaigned as the "polititian" vs the circus sideshow. Polititians should know, the side show wins.
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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Dec 9, '16, 7:21 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,205
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
It is apparent in so many ways that the
divide over abortion was not even in the top 10 among reasons people got
so polarized. Just a few reasons: Trump's lackluster support of the
pro-life issues. The noticeable lack of much campaigning by either side
on the abortion issue. The issues that really marked the divide:
Immigration. Terrorism. Gun control. Jobs. Foreign trade agreements.
Health care. These are the issues the candidates talked about in all
their campaign speeches. These are the issues that the candidates talked
about in the debates. These are the issues that average voters talked
about when asked. And many of these issues are issues for which some
compromise is possible.
To say now that there should not be unity is to ignore the fact that
half the nation prefers positions contrary to those Trump campaigned on.
And I am not talking about abortion. Very few people are. It is wrong
to pretend that the polarization in the US is over mainly over this
issue and resign ourselves to four years of permanent distrust of half
the population of the country. We do have to live with each other
whether we agree with their politics or not.
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IF she lost the catholic vote, which I still don't think she did,
(yes I saw the report that trump won the Catholic vote and I flat out
don't believe it) then abortion would have been the absolute deciding
factor in losing that demographic.
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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Dec 9, '16, 7:46 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 10,598
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
IF she lost the catholic vote, which I
still don't think she did, (yes I saw the report that trump won the
Catholic vote and I flat out don't believe it) then abortion would have
been the absolute deciding factor in losing that demographic.
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Yes, that is true. But that does not mean it is a good thing for
the country to remain highly polarized, which was the only point I was
arguing against.
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Dec 9, '16, 11:01 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Posts: 21,613
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
Yes, that is true. But that does not mean
it is a good thing for the country to remain highly polarized, which
was the only point I was arguing against.
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Then the non-Trump folks need to accept that they lost and no recount or protest will change that.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Dec 10, '16, 2:21 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 23, 2012
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
Then the non-Trump folks need to accept that they lost and no recount or protest will change that.
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Amen. Short, sweet and to the point.
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Dec 10, '16, 4:40 am
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: December 5, 2010
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
Then the non-Trump folks need to accept that they lost and no recount or protest will change that.
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Only a very few have not done that already.
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Dec 10, '16, 6:18 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 11, 2004
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Wisconsin election officials reported Friday nearly 89 percent of the
ballots cast for president had been counted. Clinton had gained just 49
votes.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...count-44079681
I guess our elections are pretty accurate.
__________________
-gilliam
Catholicism is not the religious version of a political ideology
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Dec 10, '16, 7:03 am
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Veteran Member
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Posts: 9,000
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliam
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....in Wisconsin.
I've read of irregularities in Michigan.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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Dec 10, '16, 7:10 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,205
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
....in Wisconsin.
I've read of irregularities in Michigan.
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To most liberals, they are the exact same place....
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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Dec 10, '16, 12:19 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 26, 2008
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
Then the non-Trump folks need to accept that they lost and no recount or protest will change that.
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They are still counting the absentee votes and as long as she's
gaining there that will continue to make news, just like the weather
report.
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Dec 10, '16, 7:25 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: March 19, 2006
Posts: 38,446
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
As dvdjs pointed out, if fewer than 0.1%
of the votes had changed for Clinton, the math shows she would have won.
If that is not a technical squeaker, I don't know what is.
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Yep, that definitely qualifies as a squeaker.
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Dec 10, '16, 8:05 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 23,005
Religion: Life-long Lutheran, now Anglican Province of America
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
IF she lost the catholic vote, which I
still don't think she did, (yes I saw the report that trump won the
Catholic vote and I flat out don't believe it) then abortion would have
been the absolute deciding factor in losing that demographic.
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Are you sure it wasn't the anti-catholic rhetoric, or the plans to
infiltrate and undermine the Catholic Church emanating from Clinton
operatives. ?
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Dec 10, '16, 8:46 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,205
Religion: Still Catholic......
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
Are you sure it wasn't the anti-catholic
rhetoric, or the plans to infiltrate and undermine the Catholic Church
emanating from Clinton operatives. ?
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They never happened. Don't you know? Anything that sheds bad light on liberals is just fake news Russian propoganda?
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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Dec 10, '16, 8:50 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 23, 2012
Posts: 14,357
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
Are you sure it wasn't the anti-catholic
rhetoric, or the plans to infiltrate and undermine the Catholic Church
emanating from Clinton operatives. ?
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Exactly.
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Dec 10, '16, 9:40 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Posts: 21,613
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Well, she was challenged. I'm not sure
more than trump. I wonder if after a tone of reflection the DNC will
rethink super delegates. Though I think Bernie would have been beaten
worse. I think they ran thier toughest candidate. It played to a
historical first in a time of inclusion and she had experience and
savvy. Without super delegates I'm not sure sanders would have been seen
as the direct challenger. But because he could play the "unfair" card
he garnered a lot of support.
Hillary should have played the gender card. It would have worked.
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I think she would've if she knew it would work. But Trump was seen
as so anti-woman (incorrectly so despite his rhetoric) it would be like
squeezing blood from a turnip.
People are just sick to death of political correctness.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Dec 10, '16, 9:46 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Posts: 21,613
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
They are still counting the absentee
votes and as long as she's gaining there that will continue to make
news, just like the weather report.
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They'll drag this out as long as possible, but the left,
especially the young left, doesn't have the stomach for longevity, even
against Trump.
Unsurprisingly, they have to pay many of these protesters and even gave
goodies to Democrats to show up and vote for Clinton. That's actually
why I thought she would win--because that is a real ground game---- and
Trump--- I don't know if he ever understood that crowds and ratings do
NOT equal votes.
There will be a spike in opposition for Inauguration Day, but really,
they can't manufacture this forever. Their attention span is too short
and Trump's approval has increased by over 50%.
And remember, every dollar they waste on this is one dollar less for 2018 and 2020.
__________________
"The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin
"Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical
"...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous
Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A
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Dec 12, '16, 9:03 am
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Forum Elder
Prayer Warrior
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Join Date: May 20, 2011
Posts: 21,525
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
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By the end of the day on Saturday, precincts that had reported 91.32% of the original vote totals have completed their recounts.
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Quote:
The net change in ballot counts from the 91.32% votes from completed
precincts: 1,480 added, which makes the change 0.0551% of the original
count in those completed precincts. The change in vote totals for each
candidate:
Trump: +628
Clinton: +691
Stein: +68
Johnson: +76
With only eight percent of precincts left to report official recount
results (including all of the city of Milwaukee), Jill Stein has only
managed to reduce Trump’s lead by 63 votes. To change the outcome of the
election, Wisconsin would have to find changes that would produce a
22,555-vote difference in the final 255,000 or so votes left to tally.
That would require a change of 8.84% at a minimum — and every change
would have to be in favor of Hillary Clinton. It’s not going to happen.
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http://hotair.com/archives/2016/12/1...ated-futility/
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Dec 12, '16, 9:19 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 7, 2012
Posts: 3,846
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC
Are you sure it wasn't the anti-catholic
rhetoric, or the plans to infiltrate and undermine the Catholic Church
emanating from Clinton operatives. ?
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I can't believe you guys think that Catholics in Alliance for the
Common Good are some sort of subversive organization that wants to
destroy the Catholic Church. They were created after being motivated by
Pope Francis. They still exist out in the open; You can take a look to
see what they are up to. I see them support Pope Francis more than the
conservative groups/people I follow. Yes they are political but I
believe their purpose is to bring Catholic teaching into American
politics so it's not a surprise.
This was a con, pure and simple.
ETA: I'm not sure I've ever seen them say anything that respected groups
like Franciscan Action Network say. I really don't understand the
controversy.
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Dec 12, '16, 9:23 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 26,642
Religion: Jewish
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
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After the fact, we can say the recount was a waste of time. OTOH,
even if it was found that Clinton had really won the electoral vote,
then what? A do-over? That would cause more trouble and hostility than
it is worth, and no way is it going to happen. The 2016 election is
over; onto the next major political issue.
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Dec 12, '16, 10:15 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 26, 2008
Posts: 43,235
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperLuigi
They'll drag this out as long as
possible, but the left, especially the young left, doesn't have the
stomach for longevity, even against Trump.
Unsurprisingly, they have to pay many of these protesters and even gave
goodies to Democrats to show up and vote for Clinton. That's actually
why I thought she would win--because that is a real ground game---- and
Trump--- I don't know if he ever understood that crowds and ratings do
NOT equal votes.
There will be a spike in opposition for Inauguration Day, but really,
they can't manufacture this forever. Their attention span is too short
and Trump's approval has increased by over 50%.
And remember, every dollar they waste on this is one dollar less for 2018 and 2020.
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By law all votes must be counted. I presume both parties have the required representation.
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Dec 12, '16, 10:23 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 26, 2008
Posts: 43,235
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
After the fact, we can say the recount
was a waste of time. OTOH, even if it was found that Clinton had really
won the electoral vote, then what? A do-over? That would cause more
trouble and hostility than it is worth, and no way is it going to
happen. The 2016 election is over; onto the next major political issue.
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If there is doubt, for example, if those absentees were thrown
into the wrong state buckets, I can easily see a lot of ambiguity there,
the electors should not vote for either Clinton or Trump, and throw the
selection to the House.
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Dec 12, '16, 11:09 am
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Registering
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Join Date: February 8, 2006
Posts: 159
Religion: N/A
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Peterson
I can't believe you guys think that
Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good are some sort of subversive
organization that wants to destroy the Catholic Church. They were
created after being motivated by Pope Francis. They still exist out in
the open; You can take a look to see what they are up to. I see them
support Pope Francis more than the conservative groups/people I follow.
Yes they are political but I believe their purpose is to bring Catholic
teaching into American politics so it's not a surprise.
This was a con, pure and simple.
ETA: I'm not sure I've ever seen them say anything that respected groups
like Franciscan Action Network say. I really don't understand the
controversy.
|
http://www.catholicleague.org/soros-...s-dishonest-2/ Soros funded Catholics
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/I...ng_emails.aspx Fake Groups
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Dec 12, '16, 11:39 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: February 2, 2009
Posts: 7,198
Religion: Deist, former Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
After the fact, we can say the recount
was a waste of time. OTOH, even if it was found that Clinton had really
won the electoral vote, then what? A do-over? That would cause more
trouble and hostility than it is worth, and no way is it going to
happen. The 2016 election is over; onto the next major political issue.
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No one has officially won yet. That will be determined Dec. 19
when the ec casts its votes. If no one reaches 270 the president will be
chosen by the HOR. There may be some surprises left in light of recent
developments.
__________________
With malice toward none; with charity for all;
with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us
strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds;
to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and
his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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Dec 12, '16, 3:48 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 26,642
Religion: Jewish
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
No one has officially won yet. That will
be determined Dec. 19 when the ec casts its votes. If no one reaches 270
the president will be chosen by the HOR. There may be some surprises
left in light of recent developments.
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Thank you for the technical information. But don't you think such
an event would tear the country apart even further? Sometimes I think
it's better to leave well enough alone and move on. I think of Ford's
pardon of Nixon, for example.
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Dec 12, '16, 4:50 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: January 14, 2012
Posts: 10,840
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
No one has officially won yet. That will
be determined Dec. 19 when the ec casts its votes. If no one reaches 270
the president will be chosen by the HOR. There may be some surprises
left in light of recent developments.
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Anyone from the EC who goes against their pledge to support a
particular candidate,will basically be thumbing thier noses at the very
people they pledged to represent.Esentially saying their votes don't
count,that only the EC matters.If that should happen there will be a lot
of very angry and justifyibly so ,citizens.
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Dec 12, '16, 5:34 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 21, 2011
Posts: 3,586
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne S
Anyone from the EC who goes against their
pledge to support a particular candidate,will basically be thumbing
thier noses at the very people they pledged to represent.Esentially
saying their votes don't count,that only the EC matters.If that should
happen there will be a lot of very angry and justifyibly so ,citizens. |
It also sets a precedent for other people to break their pledges,
"for a higher purpose". Think about witnesses and jurors, and others.
Once you get away from the concept of pledging you can rationalize
almost anything.
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Dec 12, '16, 5:36 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 11, 2004
Posts: 37,957
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
The state of Wisconsin has released the final worksheet from the recount tallies. The final numbers are:
Total votes: 2,941,034 (+1,741 from Election Night, 0.0592% change rate)
Final Trump lead: 22,779 (+162 from Election Night)
Trump added votes in recount: 874
Clinton added votes in recount: 712
Stein added votes in recount: 66
Johnson added votes in recount: 74
__________________
-gilliam
Catholicism is not the religious version of a political ideology
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Dec 12, '16, 8:09 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: February 2, 2009
Posts: 7,198
Religion: Deist, former Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne S
Anyone from the EC who goes against their
pledge to support a particular candidate,will basically be thumbing
thier noses at the very people they pledged to represent.Esentially
saying their votes don't count,that only the EC matters.If that should
happen there will be a lot of very angry and justifyibly so ,citizens. |
The ability to freely exercise one's conscience was and is the
intent of the electoral college. I would prefer it be abolished or that
state electors be apportioned rather than winner take all. For now we
have a system that could deny Trump the WH. 37 non or switched votes and
it goes to the house.
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his
judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to
your opinion. Edmund Burke
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...urk166515.html
__________________
With malice toward none; with charity for all;
with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us
strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds;
to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and
his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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Dec 12, '16, 11:17 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,205
Religion: Still Catholic......
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Peterson
I can't believe you guys think that
Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good are some sort of subversive
organization that wants to destroy the Catholic Church. They were
created after being motivated by Pope Francis. They still exist out in
the open; You can take a look to see what they are up to. I see them
support Pope Francis more than the conservative groups/people I follow.
Yes they are political but I believe their purpose is to bring Catholic
teaching into American politics so it's not a surprise.
This was a con, pure and simple.
ETA: I'm not sure I've ever seen them say anything that respected groups
like Franciscan Action Network say. I really don't understand the
controversy.
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Hopefully you are attempting humor.
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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Dec 13, '16, 7:08 am
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: January 14, 2012
Posts: 10,840
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
The ability to freely exercise one's
conscience was and is the intent of the electoral college. I would
prefer it be abolished or that state electors be apportioned rather than
winner take all. For now we have a system that could deny Trump the WH.
37 non or switched votes and it goes to the house.
Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his
judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to
your opinion. Edmund Burke
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/q...urk166515.html |
Not gonna happen.This narrssistic outrage thatvTrump could not have possibly legitimately won the election,is beyond pathetic.
Funny how that works,whenever a Republucan wins,somehow he doesn't en legitimately does not have a mandate......please 
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Dec 13, '16, 10:15 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 26, 2008
Posts: 43,235
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by commenter
It also sets a precedent for other people
to break their pledges, "for a higher purpose". Think about witnesses
and jurors, and others. Once you get away from the concept of pledging
you can rationalize almost anything.
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Fair point but the Electoral College is composed of humans not robots. It's about time we meet some of them.
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Dec 13, '16, 4:12 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 21, 2011
Posts: 3,586
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
example of fake Catholic organization, from Catholic Culture, a reputable Catholic org:
Website Review: Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good
A review based on: http://www.catholicsinalliance.org
Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good is self-described as "a
non-partisan non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the fullness
of the Catholic Social Tradition in the public square. Founded in 2004,
our mission is to provide information to Catholics about Church social
teaching as it relates to public participation in our society, and to
advance the prophetic voice of the Catholic social tradition." In
reality this organization is more in line with Cardinal Bernardin's
Common Ground mishmash of leftist "social justice" issues.
Voting for the Common Good: A Practical Guide for Conscientious
Catholics published by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good — which
is led by former advisors to Senators John Kerry and Hillary Clinton —
is nothing other than a well-funded attempt to try to persuade Catholics
that it is morally acceptable to continue to vote for the “personally
opposed” pro-choice candidates who have swindled them in the past.
The guide notes that there can be “no litmus test” for Catholic voters
and that there is “no Catholic voting formula.” It adds that “since we
seldom, if ever, have the opportunity to vote for a candidate with the
right positions on all the issues important to Catholics, we often must
vote for candidates who may hold the ‘wrong’ Catholic positions on some
issues in order to maximize the good our vote achieves in other areas.”
Then it applies these half-truths to the question which is really at the
foundation of the guide: “Is it okay to vote for a pro-choice
candidate?”
We recommend you look elsewhere for guidance on political issues.
Please see Dr. Jeffrey Mirus' excellent commentary on single-issue
politics, and these articles from the Catholic Culture library:
Moral Principles for Catholic Voters
How Should Catholics Vote
Review Ratings what do these ratings mean?
First Evaluated: 09/11/2007; Last Updated: 09/15/2010
Fidelity: Danger!
Resources: Poor
Useability: Excellent
Strengths
None Reported.
Weaknesses
Fidelity: Questionable leadership Example(s)
Fidelity: Supported by dissident organizations Example(s)
Fidelity: Minimizes the issue of abortion Example(s)
Fidelity: Weekend with dissident Richard Rohr promoted Example(s)
Fidelity: Voter's Guide which makes abortion one of many issues Example(s)
Categories
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Dec 14, '16, 7:54 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 21, 2011
Posts: 3,586
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
The ability to freely exercise one's conscience was and is the intent of the electoral college.
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Electors are not, in 2016, "representatives" of anyone. They have a
right to vote, and they did that, on November 8. (Your representatives
serve in Congress, not as electors). Your congress representatives
pledge towards the best interests of the United States, and do that by
exercising personal judgement.
A witness in a courtroom takes a pledge to carry out a certain function
faithfully. So do electors. "Faithless" electors may lead to faithless
courtroom witnesses, and faithless many other things, as people
rationalize pledge-breaking, all the time appealing to their
"conscience", which really means the media.
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Dec 14, '16, 8:17 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: January 26, 2008
Posts: 43,235
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by commenter
Electors are not, in 2016,
"representatives" of anyone. They have a right to vote, and they did
that, on November 8. (Your representatives serve in Congress, not as
electors). Your congress representatives pledge towards the best
interests of the United States, and do that by exercising personal
judgement.
A witness in a courtroom takes a pledge to carry out a certain function
faithfully. So do electors. "Faithless" electors may lead to faithless
courtroom witnesses, and faithless many other things, as people
rationalize pledge-breaking, all the time appealing to their
"conscience", which really means the media.
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Why not more like jurors?
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Dec 14, '16, 1:38 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 21, 2011
Posts: 3,586
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis
Why not more like jurors?
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Jurors, to some degree, are representatives of the community; you get a jury of your peers.
They do in fact weigh the evidence, exercise personal judgement within
very defined parameters. Jurors meet, and deliberate. They are not like
electors.
A witness is someone brought in for a specific purpose. They don't weigh the evidence for or against. They do not exercise personal judgement.
They "follow their conscience" by carrying out their role in
administration of justice, which is only seen as the process as a whole,
not necessarily their tiny part. Witnesses are like electors.
It is tempting for witnesses to exercise personal judgement, for
instance, by omitting adding certain details to what they witnessed, so
as to "send a message". A witness might, for instance, believe that "Men
get away with rape too often" or "That race is too often falsely
accused" or "just looking at her, I know she is innocent". A witness can
abandon the task she was pledged to do, and bend it a little, to
"follow her conscience".
Faithless witnesses are just as bad as faithless electors.
Some will argue that, 2 centuries ago, voters had different expectations
for electors. Whatever was the pledge taken by electors 2 centuries
ago, 2016 electors should follow the pledge of 2016.
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Dec 16, '16, 4:18 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: February 1, 2009
Posts: 1,658
Religion: Roman Catholic - Convert
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Re: Wisconsin Recount Gets the Green Light
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
The population of the US was much smaller
in Washington's day. The law and the electoral college say Trump won.
We have to go along with it. But we don't have to pretend the victory was any more than it was - a technical squeaker.
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That I will agree with!
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