Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried

Oct 27, '16, 4:10 pm

Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic

Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: After all, the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination, the state's primary civil rights agency, released a document on Sept. 1, titled, "Gender Identity Guidance." The document defined a public accommodation as "any place, whether licensed or unlicensed, which is open to and accepts or solicits the patronage of the general public" . . . "Even a church could be seen as a place of public accommodation if it holds a secular event, such as a spaghetti supper, that is open to the general public," the guidance reads. "All persons, regardless of gender identity, shall have the right to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation" . . . That said, any event that is hosted in a church and is for "purely secular purposes" could fall under public accommodations regulations. http://newsok.com/article/5519678 Hopefully, this issue about the Massachusetts Commission Against Discriminationand its wider implications gets some coverage from the Catholic Press because hardly anyone out there is covering it. There is such a thing as Freedom of Association under the First Amendment. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)

#2   Oct 27, '16, 4:13 pm

Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,719 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer http://newsok.com/article/5519678 Hopefully, this issue about the Massachusetts Commission Against Discriminationand its wider implications gets some coverage from the Catholic Press because hardly anyone out there is covering it. There is such a thing as Freedom of Association under the First Amendment. Freedom of Association means no more to the left than does anything else in the Constitution.

#3   Oct 27, '16, 6:48 pm

Beryllos Senior Member   Join Date: May 23, 2013 Posts: 7,044 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Why shouldn't your church welcome people with gender issues to its spaghetti supper? I would be as glad to sit down, share a meal, and talk with them as with my pals from the Men's Bible Study.

#4   Oct 27, '16, 7:09 pm

1990Domer Regular Member Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 10, 2015 Posts: 1,741 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried I think the bigger issue may be SSA wedding receptions, commitment parties and the like.

#5   Oct 27, '16, 7:19 pm

exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,735 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Freedom of Association means no more to the left than does anything else in the Constitution. It doesn't mean much to the right either. Almost everyone agrees you have no such right. The disagreement is only on the criteria by which you can be penalized. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton

#6   Oct 27, '16, 9:04 pm

tseleehw Junior Member   Join Date: April 11, 2016 Posts: 367 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Pretty much every church welcomes all people, regardless of religion, to their services, or mass, or whatever, so would that technically make them "public" events as well? This is what the left talks about when they use the phrase "freedom of worship" rather than "freedom of religion". First, they just wanted people's belief and religion out of the public sphere. Now that's not enough, and they even want to limit how religions exercise their rights on their own property. If this isn't proof that the leftists want nothing less than the eradication of all religious belief in this country, then I don't know what is. This is just the beginning of the persecution.

#7   Oct 28, '16, 12:03 am

Rosebud77 Veteran Member   Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 10,030 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by tseleehw Pretty much every church welcomes all people, regardless of religion, to their services, or mass, or whatever, so would that technically make them "public" events as well? This is what the left talks about when they use the phrase "freedom of worship" rather than "freedom of religion". First, they just wanted people's belief and religion out of the public sphere. Now that's not enough, and they even want to limit how religions exercise their rights on their own property. If this isn't proof that the leftists want nothing less than the eradication of all religious belief in this country, then I don't know what is. This is just the beginning of the persecution.

#8   Oct 28, '16, 4:15 am

Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Liberalism run amok. Vote Democrat and that is what you will get. But of course we know that they will always make an exemption for Muslims.

#9   Oct 28, '16, 4:20 am

Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Freedom of Association means no more to the left than does anything else in the Constitution. The Constitution, what is that? We really haven't followed it for the last 100 years - it means very little any more.

#10   Oct 28, '16, 4:36 am

stevegravy Regular Member   Join Date: October 18, 2007 Posts: 2,603 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by tseleehw Pretty much every church welcomes all people, regardless of religion, to their services, or mass, or whatever, so would that technically make them "public" events as well? This is what the left talks about when they use the phrase "freedom of worship" rather than "freedom of religion". First, they just wanted people's belief and religion out of the public sphere. Now that's not enough, and they even want to limit how religions exercise their rights on their own property. If this isn't proof that the leftists want nothing less than the eradication of all religious belief in this country, then I don't know what is. This is just the beginning of the persecution. Nailed it. It is not about toleration it is about having to publicly participate in the derangement or else. It makes everyone complicit in their lies.

#11   Oct 28, '16, 4:43 am

LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,598 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by 1990Domer I think the bigger issue may be SSA wedding receptions, commitment parties and the like. I think that particular fear is premature. The guidelines say nothing about the type of events that a church must host. Long before same sex receptions, they would have to force Jewish receptions, or Protestant receptions, or birthday parties. These choices have always been at the discretion of the church, and nothing in these guidelines say anything different along those lines. The guidelines are specifically about how individuals should be treated - in this case as regards a place to pee.

#12   Oct 28, '16, 4:47 am

LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,598 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by tseleehw Pretty much every church welcomes all people, regardless of religion, to their services, or mass, or whatever, so would that technically make them "public" events as well? I don't think so, as the explanations issued with the guidelines specifically mentions "secular events, like a spaghetti dinner". That is a strong indication that sacred events are not the subject of these guidelines.

#13   Oct 28, '16, 5:53 am

zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I don't think so, as the explanations issued with the guidelines specifically mentions "secular events, like a spaghetti dinner". That is a strong indication that sacred events are not the subject of these guidelines. And if your parish rents out their hall for a Ladies Bingo Night, or local middle school dance, then it will be forced to rent out the hall for a Transgender Bingo Night or dance. This is covered in flowery language, but underneath this is a monstrous bill.

#14   Oct 28, '16, 6:09 am

Tarpeian Rock Regular Member   Join Date: July 17, 2010 Posts: 4,581 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I don't think so, as the explanations issued with the guidelines specifically mentions "secular events, like a spaghetti dinner". That is a strong indication that sacred events are not the subject of these guidelines. Massachusetts pioneered legal "gay marriage." Just give us time, and our state Supreme Court will find a way.

#15   Oct 28, '16, 6:45 am

LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,598 Religion: Catholic

Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 And if your parish rents out their hall for a Ladies Bingo Night, or local middle school dance, then it will be forced to rent out the hall for a Transgender Bingo Night or dance. No, and it is not a bill, and it does not say anything that implies they would have to rent out the hall to anyone who asks. You are trying to build a straw man. If you have an argument about where someone should pee at a spaghetti dinner, then make it.    Oct 28, '16, 6:47 am lmachine Regular Member   Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,999 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 And if your parish rents out their hall for a Ladies Bingo Night, or local middle school dance, then it will be forced to rent out the hall for a Transgender Bingo Night or dance. This is covered in flowery language, but underneath this is a monstrous bill. Monstrous? It simply says that if you provide a service to the public, for which you have to be licensed, you can't discriminate.   #17   Oct 28, '16, 7:29 am Erich Regular Member   Join Date: June 23, 2004 Posts: 3,902 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I don't think so, as the explanations issued with the guidelines specifically mentions "secular events, like a spaghetti dinner". That is a strong indication that sacred events are not the subject of these guidelines. Wedding receptions (indeed, parties of any sort) are hardly "sacred events." There are a lot of things buried in Massachusetts' public accommodations law... as this link reveals. __________________ Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!   #18   Oct 31, '16, 9:21 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle No, and it is not a bill, and it does not say anything that implies they would have to rent out the hall to anyone who asks. You are trying to build a straw man. If you have an argument about where someone should pee at a spaghetti dinner, then make it. Fine, grammatical error. Government fiats instead of bill. It's not a strawman when these types of laws have been, are being, and will be used as a legal weapon to attack Christians with. There will be legal challenges to churches very soon. Churches who host secular events, like an elementary school play, in their buildings will be threatened that they must allow all kinds of evil events in their buildings. That you are pretending this won't happen is just silly. Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine Monstrous? It simply says that if you provide a service to the public, for which you have to be licensed, you can't discriminate. This govt regulation is just another attack on the Christian faith. We should all openly admit that is what is happening and then openly choose which side we stand with.   #19   Oct 31, '16, 10:18 am J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,846 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Adonia Liberalism run amok. Vote Democrat and that is what you will get. But of course we know that they will always make an exemption for Muslims. Our governor is Republican.   #20   Oct 31, '16, 10:47 am JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,278 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Freedom of Association means no more to the left than does anything else in the Constitution. There used to be such a thing as freedom of association, but it has long since been beaten down; I doubt if means anything to anyone anymore. And the law will increasingly treat freedom of association as inherently discriminatory, hateful, and mere bigotry. I suppose that at some point a transgender group will test the latest ruling by coming to a local spaghetti dinner hosted by the parish Boy Scouts at the parish hall.   #21   Oct 31, '16, 11:56 am J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,846 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by JimG There used to be such a thing as freedom of association, but it has long since been beaten down; I doubt if means anything to anyone anymore. And the law will increasingly treat freedom of association as inherently discriminatory, hateful, and mere bigotry. I suppose that at some point a transgender group will test the latest ruling by coming to a local spaghetti dinner hosted by the parish Boy Scouts at the parish hall. Are transgendered persons not allowed to go to spaghetti dinners hosted by the Boy Scouts? Those types of things are open to the public. That would be blatant discrimination and can't be allowed.   #22   Oct 31, '16, 12:09 pm Maximilan Kolbe Banned   Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 1,614 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I think that particular fear is premature. The guidelines say nothing about the type of events that a church must host. Long before same sex receptions, they would have to force Jewish receptions, or Protestant receptions, or birthday parties. These choices have always been at the discretion of the church, and nothing in these guidelines say anything different along those lines. The guidelines are specifically about how individuals should be treated - in this case as regards a place to pee. The difference being Jewish couples don't have a history of forcing them way into Christian circles the way LGBT activists do, and as the courts get loaded with more progressives, all it takes is a few lawsuits to consider the issue. Jewish couples had the attitude of "just let us do our own thing" versus certain LGBT folks whose attitude is "let us do our own thing, in your living room, on the taxpayers dime."   #23   Oct 31, '16, 12:15 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,598 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Maximilan Kolbe The difference being Jewish couples don't have a history of forcing them way into Christian circles the way LGBT activists do, and as the courts get loaded with more progressives, all it takes is a few lawsuits to consider the issue. Jewish couples had the attitude of "just let us do our own thing" versus certain LGBT folks whose attitude is "let us do our own thing, in your living room, on the taxpayers dime." The Jewish attitude has nothing to do with it. The law just doesn't allow anyone to force a church to rent their hall for anything. This new guideline doesn't do that either.   #24   Nov 2, '16, 10:05 am Erich Regular Member   Join Date: June 23, 2004 Posts: 3,902 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle The law just doesn't allow anyone to force a church to rent their hall for anything. Except that similar laws *do* allow states to mandate "diversity" through conformity. Just ask a certain bakery in Colorado. __________________ Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!   #25   Nov 2, '16, 10:08 am JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,278 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried I am reminded of the time when cross dressing members of the group ACT-UP invaded St. Patrick's Cathedral and got in the communion lines. Lots of diversity--and disruption.   #26   Nov 2, '16, 11:19 am Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle No, and it is not a bill, and it does not say anything that implies they would have to rent out the hall to anyone who asks. You are trying to build a straw man. If you have an argument about where someone should pee at a spaghetti dinner, then make it. Men pee where the men pee, Women pee where the women pee. There is no designation for confused! That designation requires mental health officials to help with   #27   Nov 2, '16, 11:29 am abucs Regular Member   Join Date: August 28, 2007 Posts: 3,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Men pee where the men pee, Women pee where the women pee. There is no designation for confused! That designation requires mental health officials to help with From a psychological point of view it is interesting to see how societies become insane.   #28   Nov 2, '16, 11:52 am JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,603 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Beryllos Why shouldn't your church welcome people with gender issues to its spaghetti supper? I would be as glad to sit down, share a meal, and talk with them as with my pals from the Men's Bible Study. The law isn't about that, but that a church which holds an event which is open to the public, can not discriminate against transgender people by having restrooms with Ladies and Men's Signs on them. They must all be gender neutral. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   #29   Nov 2, '16, 12:28 pm zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS The law isn't about that, but that a church which holds an event which is open to the public, can not discriminate against transgender people by having restrooms with Ladies and Men's Signs on them. They must all be gender neutral. Jim This is just insane. It is forcing society to play along with the mental illness of those who think they are another gender.   #30   Nov 2, '16, 12:31 pm JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,603 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine Monstrous? It simply says that if you provide a service to the public, for which you have to be licensed, you can't discriminate. But they now define having a ladies room and men's room as discrimination. Therein lies the problem. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   Nov 2, '16, 12:38 pm lmachine Regular Member   Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,999 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS But they now define having a ladies room and men's room as discrimination. No, they define not allowing women to use the women's restroom or men to use the men's restroom discrimination.   #32   Nov 2, '16, 12:41 pm Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine No, they define not allowing women to use the women's restroom or men to use the men's restroom discrimination. Nobody does that! Men can't go in the ladies room and vice versa. No discrimination.   #33   Nov 2, '16, 12:45 pm Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Just because you've decided to mutilate yourself does not mean you changed sex.   #34   Nov 2, '16, 12:46 pm JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,603 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine No, they define not allowing women to use the women's restroom or men to use the men's restroom discrimination. Having restrooms assigned by gender is discrimination according to their argument. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   #35   Nov 2, '16, 12:49 pm JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,603 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Nobody does that! Men can't go in the ladies room and vice versa. No discrimination. Under the law, they can go into the restroom which they feel sexually identified with, The Mass Laws allows the AG to determine if a person was abusing the law, such as a man going into a ladies room, who is not actually a transgender person. However, the wording of the law is open ended on this and it would be unconstitutional for the AG to decide if a man was abusing the law or not, until he had actually did something in the ladies room which was illegal. What that is, is not necessarily specified by law. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   #36   Nov 2, '16, 12:54 pm Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS Under the law, they can go into the restroom which they feel sexually identified with, The Mass Laws allows the AG to determine if a person was abusing the law, such as a man going into a ladies room, who is not actually a transgender person. However, the wording of the law is open ended on this and it would be unconstitutional for the AG to decide if a man was abusing the law or not, until he had actually did something in the ladies room which was illegal. What that is, is not necessarily specified by law. Jim What we need to do is stop all this transgender nonsense and get these people the mental help they really need!   #37   Nov 2, '16, 1:12 pm J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,846 Religion: Catholic Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine No, they define not allowing women to use the women's restroom or men to use the men's restroom discrimination. That was my understanding as well. If you identify as a woman you use the women's room. I don't think they are forcing gender neutral bathrooms on everyone. I spend a lot of time in Boston and nobody really has gender neutral bathrooms except for places where there's one toilet in the room and you lock the door behind you.   #38   Nov 2, '16, 2:35 pm zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine No, they define not allowing women to use the women's restroom or men to use the men's restroom discrimination. You won't find a lot of people on these boards who will go along with the fantasy that people can be a different gender than the one they genetically are. Reality is much better, especially for mentally ill people who think they are a gender different from their biology.   #39   Nov 4, '16, 2:46 pm Erich Regular Member   Join Date: June 23, 2004 Posts: 3,902 Re: Massachusetts government issues transgender guidance — and what it says about churches has some worried Quote: Originally Posted by J_Peterson nobody really has gender neutral bathrooms except for places where there's one toilet in the room and you lock the door behind you. There you go... a solution to the problem. Just have one restroom. That'll work really well at pro baseball/football/hockey games, I'm sure __________________ Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!