Re: Silence trailer is out!
I haven't heard anything about the movie, but I can recommend the book.
Frankly I'm surprised Scorcese would want to make this into a movie.
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If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
Dec 5, '16, 5:55 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
He's been trying to make this movie for at least a decade.
Father James Martin SJ was a consultant on the film so maybe not be as bad as some fear it will.
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Dec 9, '16, 6:56 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by punisherthunder
What's the issue with Last Temptation? It
shows that Satan tried to tempt Christ (like in the desert) while on
the cross. The film shows what Satan can offer him in exchange for
getting him off the cross. If anything it shows how heinous and depraved
Satan and his ways can get. Other than that, the film is solid.
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The review by Greydanus is very good (as usual). I'll add my personal
experience: that film (in small measure) along with our culture (in
large measure) helped push me away from Jesus for many years. And it did
it in a way that was more pernicious than anything mentioned by
Greydanus.
In Last Temptation, Jesus is depicted as a rather weak man -- hardly a
hero. This depiction of the humanity of Jesus fits the modern hollywood
stereotype where people are weak, driven by their flaws and emotions,
and incapable of any noble or heroic action. So in addition to
destroying the notion of the divinity of Jesus, the film destroys the
notion of a heroic human.
If the movie were a play presented 300 years BC, Aristotle would have criticized it for its negative depiction of human nature.
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Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.
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Dec 10, '16, 8:05 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowlearner
The review by Greydanus is very good (as
usual). I'll add my personal experience: that film (in small measure)
along with our culture (in large measure) helped push me away from Jesus
for many years. And it did it in a way that was more pernicious than
anything mentioned by Greydanus.
In Last Temptation, Jesus is depicted as a rather weak man -- hardly a
hero. This depiction of the humanity of Jesus fits the modern hollywood
stereotype where people are weak, driven by their flaws and emotions,
and incapable of any noble or heroic action. So in addition to
destroying the notion of the divinity of Jesus, the film destroys the
notion of a heroic human.
If the movie were a play presented 300 years BC, Aristotle would have criticized it for its negative depiction of human nature.
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It's debatable that he was portrayed as weak in the film. Even if he
were, him rejecting the temptation of Satan on the cross shows that
"weak" men in todays culture, when bearing a cross can turn down Satan
as well.
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Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter.............Isaiah 5:20
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Dec 15, '16, 2:27 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
When he was in Rome promoting the film Martin Scorsese met the Pope, and
showed the film to 300 Jesuits according to Catholic News.
http://www.catholicnews.com/services...or-jesuits.cfm
That is no indication that the Pope saw the film though, or that he would approve of it if he had.
If it's a film with a spiritual message I may go and see it, though I will read reviews and responses to it before deciding.
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Dec 31, '16, 3:54 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Any reviews from CAF members?
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Dec 31, '16, 10:45 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
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The movie has already been directed by Scorsese.
It was already released in selected theatres Dec. 23rd and wide release in January.
The book was written by a Catholic author. I think the movie will be thought provoking.
I would like to see it as it is based on a true story and there have
been so many martyrs in Japan. I don't know how Catholicism is today in
Japan, but the Japanese suffered
tremendous persecution in the 16th and 17th centuries.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 1, '17, 4:40 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
It sounds like the problem in this movie is apostasy. I haven't seen the
movie yet, but the more conservative Catholic reviewers are saying that
the priests should have chosen the martyr's path instead of renouncing
the Faith, even though the martyr's path would have ensured the tortuous
death of many others. This seems to me a most difficult choice. Do I
renounce my faith so that others can live? Or do I remain steadfast
knowing that other people will suffer horribly as a result of my choice?
On the one hand, I can rationalize and say that by my apostasy, others
will live, and God willing, I can later repent. On the other hand, our
faith teaches that a martyr's death is a certainty of eternal reward,
both for myself and for all those others who refuse to deny Our Lord and
accept the consequences. Martyrdom requires heroic virtue that human
nature tends to resist, and most of us recoil from seeing or causing
another's suffering. Silence indeed sounds thought-provoking, but also
brutal to watch - not a "feel good" movie.
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Jan 1, '17, 5:54 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by christofirst
It sounds like the problem in this movie
is apostasy. I haven't seen the movie yet, but the more conservative
Catholic reviewers are saying that the priests should have chosen the
martyr's path instead of renouncing the Faith, even though the martyr's
path would have ensured the tortuous death of many others. This seems to
me a most difficult choice. Do I renounce my faith so that others can
live? Or do I remain steadfast knowing that other people will suffer
horribly as a result of my choice? On the one hand, I can rationalize
and say that by my apostasy, others will live, and God willing, I can
later repent. On the other hand, our faith teaches that a martyr's death
is a certainty of eternal reward, both for myself and for all those
others who refuse to deny Our Lord and accept the consequences.
Martyrdom requires heroic virtue that human nature tends to resist, and
most of us recoil from seeing or causing another's suffering. Silence
indeed sounds thought-provoking, but also brutal to watch - not a "feel
good" movie.
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No I don't think it is a feel good movie either.
What would it take to renounce your faith? The threat of your death or
someone else's death? We hear of Christian hostages of ISIS asked to do
renounce their faith.
I haven't seen the movie yet so I can't judge. It presents a dilemma.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 1, '17, 10:45 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
If you go into this movie expecting Kirk Cameron, you're going to be
disappointed. This is a Scorsese film. It will be dark. As an admirer of
Japanese culture, I'm very glad that Scorsese has finally made this
film. It's based on an excellent novel by Japanese Catholic Shusaku
Endo, from the 60s, as has been pointed out. It was previously adapted
as a Japanese film in 1971; I can't remember if it's ever been released
here or not. But Silence is considered one of the greatest Christian
novels of all time.
Theoretically, this should set Scorsese straight with anyone who hates
him for Last Temptation, but I guess haters gonna hate. I've never seen
Last Temptation and I really don't plan to. If Scorsese thought that
film added value to Jesus, fine. That's between him and Jesus. Too
uncomfortable for me. But that doesn't invalidate his other awesome
flicks.
As for the Church in Japan, yeah, it's had a very rough time. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...hurch_in_Japan, and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumi-e
Read also about Amakusa Shiro, a Catholic leader whose failed rebellion
against the Shogunate has passed into Japanese legend, and is commonly
depicted in video games, novels, manga, anime, etc. as a villain who
comes back from the dead, renounces Christ, makes a pact with a demon
and becomes an evil sorcerer. Only Japan, folks. Only Japan.
There's also some kind of Catholic offshoot called Kirishitan (Japanese
pronunciation and transcription of "Christian") which is exclusive to
Japan and originates from the feudal days. Also remember Our Lady of
Akita. 70s Japan, where manga like Devilman and Lupin III, and movies
like The Street Fighter were the order of the day, is the last place
you'd expect a Marian apparition, but there you go. God is watching the
whole world.
There's a sizable Christian or Catholic population today, I guess, and
the mostly non-religious Japan has a fascination with Catholic imagery,
as can be seen in anime such as Neon Genesis Evangelion. But the
Japanese certainly don't understand the faith outside of Hollywood
movies. That's why you see a bishop committing suicide because he
ordered a hit in Golgo 13: The Professional, or some other stupid thing.
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Jan 3, '17, 7:48 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
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Jan 3, '17, 8:21 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by christofirst
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Sounds like it's not for the squeamish (and of course neither was the book).
__________________
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
Last edited by tomarin; Jan 3, '17 at 8:37 am.
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Jan 3, '17, 7:56 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by christofirst
Do I renounce my faith so that others
can live? Or do I remain steadfast knowing that other people will suffer
horribly as a result of my choice? On the one hand, I can rationalize
and say that by my apostasy, others will live, and God willing, I can
later repent. On the other hand, our faith teaches that a martyr's death
is a certainty of eternal reward, both for myself and for all those
others who refuse to deny Our Lord and accept the consequences.
Martyrdom requires heroic virtue that human nature tends to resist, and
most of us recoil from seeing or causing another's suffering.
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I had almost similar questions when I read several of the reviews
and commentaries about the film (that are from faithful Catholic
sources). However they're more like questions about martyrdom and
apostasy. Would it be considered a sin to be coerced into apostasy? I read somewhere in an AAA here that coercion doesn't count as voluntary, which is a requirement if one is to actually sin.
Also is it actually sinful to avoid martyrdom? It is cowardice, yes,
but... considering the dire circumstances of the Christians during this
time period in history in this specific place, and the weak nature of
human beings, would be the avoidance of martyrdom be sinful per se?
I mean, it would be rash and imprudent to just go out a 17th century
Japanese village and proclaim loud and proud that you're a Christian,
when professing the faith in public would be considered reason for
treason and therefore execution. And we have also seen several instances
when Christians would go into hiding so they could profess the faith.
The ancient Roman catacombs are a testament to that, so were the "priest
holes" found in many English Catholic homes during the Tudor era in
England.
I think these questions are posed by the novel (and I assume to an
extent the film), rather than answered by the novel. And I think it's
this aspect that some (not all) of the conservative reviews miss
about Silence. It seems that they follow the assumption that fiction has
to be didactic to be great, when sometimes the best fiction out there
sometimes depict human weakness and sinfulness. If you ask me didactic
fiction is part of the reason why many (evangelical) Christian films are
so bad.
I haven't watched the film, mind you. It's still hasn't premiered here
in the Philippines. You'd think a predominantly Catholic country that
was under Japanese occupation during World War II would have released it
around the same month as in the US...
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomguy93
As for the Church in Japan, yeah, it's had a very rough time. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...hurch_in_Japan, and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumi-e
Read also about Amakusa Shiro, a Catholic leader whose failed rebellion
against the Shogunate has passed into Japanese legend, and is commonly
depicted in video games, novels, manga, anime, etc. as a villain who
comes back from the dead, renounces Christ, makes a pact with a demon
and becomes an evil sorcerer. Only Japan, folks. Only Japan.
There's also some kind of Catholic offshoot called Kirishitan (Japanese
pronunciation and transcription of "Christian") which is exclusive to
Japan and originates from the feudal days. Also remember Our Lady of
Akita. 70s Japan, where manga like Devilman and Lupin III, and movies
like The Street Fighter were the order of the day, is the last place
you'd expect a Marian apparition, but there you go. God is watching the
whole world.
There's a sizable Christian or Catholic population today, I guess, and
the mostly non-religious Japan has a fascination with Catholic imagery,
as can be seen in anime such as Neon Genesis Evangelion. But the Japanese certainly don't understand the faith outside of Hollywood movies.
That's why you see a bishop committing suicide because he ordered a hit
in Golgo 13: The Professional, or some other stupid thing.
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I think that's what Shusaku Endo points to when he mentions Japan as a "swamp that sucks up all sorts of ideologies, transforming them into itself and distorting them in the process.
Christianity seems to be seen more within the vein of popular culture
rather than a religion that can be discussed with seriousness. In fact
even Buddhism is treated as if it's part of popular culture. There's
this anime
which depicts Jesus and Buddha as roommates, and it borders almost
between the strange and the blasphemous. I think the main aim of Shusaku
Endo's works (including Silence) is to reach out to his fellow
countrymen and evangelize them by applying Christianity into the
Japanese context (inculturation), so that the "swamp of moral and
religious apathy" as he calls Japan, can allow Christianity to take
root.
There is this thread discussion which I made about fake priests in
Japanese Western-style weddings, which lead to a discussion about
religion in Japan in general and how it is perceived: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=914391
__________________
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Jan 4, '17, 5:23 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
I had almost similar questions when I
read several of the reviews and commentaries about the film (that are
from faithful Catholic sources). However they're more like questions
about martyrdom and apostasy. Would it be considered a sin to be coerced into apostasy? I read somewhere in an AAA here that coercion doesn't count as voluntary, which is a requirement if one is to actually sin.
Also is it actually sinful to avoid martyrdom? It is cowardice, yes,
but... considering the dire circumstances of the Christians during this
time period in history in this specific place, and the weak nature of
human beings, would be the avoidance of martyrdom be sinful per se?
I mean, it would be rash and imprudent to just go out a 17th century
Japanese village and proclaim loud and proud that you're a Christian,
when professing the faith in public would be considered reason for
treason and therefore execution. And we have also seen several instances
when Christians would go into hiding so they could profess the faith.
The ancient Roman catacombs are a testament to that, so were the "priest
holes" found in many English Catholic homes during the Tudor era in
England.
I think these questions are posed by the novel (and I assume to an
extent the film), rather than answered by the novel. And I think it's
this aspect that some (not all) of the conservative reviews miss
about Silence. It seems that they follow the assumption that fiction has
to be didactic to be great, when sometimes the best fiction out there
sometimes depict human weakness and sinfulness. If you ask me didactic
fiction is part of the reason why many (evangelical) Christian films are
so bad.
I haven't watched the film, mind you. It's still hasn't premiered here
in the Philippines. You'd think a predominantly Catholic country that
was under Japanese occupation during World War II would have released it
around the same month as in the US...] |
You make some good points, especially regarding the conditions
necessary for genuine apostasy. I just wanted to add that the movie is
still in limited release here in the States. Only two theaters are
showing it here in Los Angeles, and no matinee, which is why I haven't
seen it yet either. It is supposed to go into wide release later this
month, and I've now decided that I will go and see it then.
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Jan 4, '17, 5:50 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by christofirst
You make some good points, especially
regarding the conditions necessary for genuine apostasy. I just wanted
to add that the movie is still in limited release here in the States.
Only two theaters are showing it here in Los Angeles, and no matinee,
which is why I haven't seen it yet either. It is supposed to go into
wide release later this month, and I've now decided that I will go and
see it then.
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I believe January 13th.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 4, '17, 7:51 am
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
I'm interested in seeing it, but after pregnancy and post-partem
hormones have settled a bit. I'm not so bothered by themes of apostasy,
depending on how it's addressed. I think there's a difference between
presentation and exoneration.
Jan 7, '17, 2:31 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
I've seen the film now. The violent torture scenes were horrendous and not something I'd ever want to see again on the screen.
But I've since been questioning how I would feel If I ever had to
witness such brutality, or worse still, be put in a position of having
to experience a similar situation of suffering, and I hardly dare admit
to myself how weak and cowardly I would be.
Catholic news- Catholic Church England and Wales has much to say about the film.
http://www.catholicnews.org.uk/Home/News/Silence-Film.
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Jan 7, '17, 9:30 pm
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Re: Silence trailer is out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rose kelly
I've seen the film now. The violent torture scenes were horrendous and not something I'd ever want to see again on the screen.
But I've since been questioning how I would feel If I ever had to
witness such brutality, or worse still, be put in a position of having
to experience a similar situation of suffering, and I hardly dare admit
to myself how weak and cowardly I would be.
Catholic news- Catholic Church England and Wales has much to say about the film.
http://www.catholicnews.org.uk/Home/News/Silence-Film. |
I am sure I would be weak and cowardly as well. I hope to see the movie next week.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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