Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolen
I thought the acting was top notch. And
yes that thought had crossed my mind too. There are similarities between
this and apocalypse now
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I would like to see it, but I don't want to be exposed to lots of
scenes of gratuitous violence and torture, and innocent people
suffering. I've become very sensitive to things like that, in my dotage.
__________________
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
Jan 13, '17, 9:43 am
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Re: silence film
So does the end leave a sense of hope or despair? That seems to be the
main issue. I have not seen this movie but I am wanting to, as I know
the Pope also saw it.
But, we watch all kinds of things that are not edifying, which I try to
avoid. The real question is what does God show you when you watch this?
Do you think it is worthy of our time?
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Jan 14, '17, 3:17 am
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Re: silence film
Good questions Gofar!
For me this film showed me what immense, glorifying, incredible faith
looks like - the hidden Japanese who were secretly practicing their
faith.
It also made me look at themes such as torture - what would my own
limitations be? Can we judge those who experience real torture and lose
the plot? I cant even begin to understand the anguish - the
psychological impact of being tortured (not to mention physical).
There were parts of the film that moved me so much its hard to put into
words - where the Priest was holding the Host for the Japanese (the ones
who hadn't had a Priest to do Mass in a very long time)
Also - it made me think about Gods overwhelming mercy.
The end - can be understood in many different ways - but ultimately - its hopeful.
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Jan 14, '17, 8:47 am
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Re: silence film
Click here for Dave Armstrong's thoughts on Silence.
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Jan 14, '17, 12:22 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
During the reign of Decius (c. 249-51), the Christians of Alexandria are
said to have endured martyrdom, stoning, or having their belongings
confiscated for not worshipping at an idol's temple or chanting
incantations. But some readily made unholy sacrifices, pretending that
they had never been Christians, while others renounced their faith or
were tortured until they did (Hist. Eccl. 6.41). In his account of the
Diocletian persecution,
(Father of Church History and Bishop of Caesarea Maritima) Eusebius (c.
260-340 A.D.) commends the heroic martyrs but is determined to mention
nothing about those who made shipwreck of their salvation, believing
that such reports would not edify his readers (8.2:3).
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposta..._and_martyrdom
I'd recommend instead of paying $ for a movie ticket to see Silence which is an adaptation of a work of fiction in order to get your Catholic History from Hollywood watch instead the documentary ' Let Me Walk This Path' which
follows the history of Christianity in Japan "from the arrival of St.
Francis Xavier and his missionaries in 1549 to the major beatification
ceremony of 188 Japanese martyrs in 2008".
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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Jan 14, '17, 12:46 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Apostasy is complete rejection of the truths of the Christian
faith by one who has been baptized. A vicious and sinful life often
leads to apostasy. No really good man has ever fallen away from the
Christian faith.
An apostate denies or gives up his religion through fear or shame, or
through worldly motives or human respect, and denies Christ Himself. He
is under eternal damnation, for Christ days: "Whoever disowns me before
men, I in turn will disown him before my Father in heaven (Matt. 10:33).
It may happen that a Catholic gives up his religion because he had a
quarrel with the priest. He crucifies Christ because of a petty
disagreement with a mortal. Such a man should ever remember that "he who
loses his goods loses much; he who loses his life, loses more; but he
who loses his faith loses all."
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--- My Catholic Faith: A Manual of Religion, Bishop Louis LaRavoire Morrow, S.T.D., My Mission House, Kenosha, WI, Thoroughly Revised edition, 1958, p. 202
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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Jan 14, '17, 12:57 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
I'm not going to pay $ for a ticket to
see a movie and sit through a Zen koan directed by Mr. Scorsese who made
a movie called 'The Last Temptation of Christ' in 1988 and so this guy
can fill his bank account off of me.
If you want to hand your $$ over to Mr. Scorsese and financially support
him and his bank account in return for 90 minutes or so of
entertainment, that's your decision.
I encourage people not to go see whatever anti-religious, violent or full of sex films Mr. Scorsese makes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_La..._Christ_(film)
I really cannot comprehend why some Catholic clergy and Catholic
intellectuals are promoting this turkey of a film; especially from a
director who made 'The Last Temptation of Christ' in 1988 and has made
films full of graphic violence and sex.  
Movie Review from the Forward:
http://forward.com/culture/359046/martin-scorseses-silence-explores-faith-when-god-keeps-quiet/ |
It has the support of the Vatican.
The private papal audience, held in the Apostolic Palace, was announced
by the Vatican press office Tuesday in a clear show of support for
“Silence,” Scorsese’s passion project...
Francis, who is the first Jesuit pope, is known to have joined the
Jesuit order hoping to become a missionary in Japan. American priest
James Martin, who is editor of the Jesuit weekly “America,” served as a
consultant on “Silence.”
The Vatican press office said Francis had received Scorsese, who was
accompanied by his wife and two daughters, and described the 15-minute
meeting as “very cordial.” The pope told the group that he had read
Endo’s novel. He and Scorsese spoke about the experience of Jesuit
missionaries in Japan...
“Silence” will screen Wednesday afternoon in the roughly 50-seat Vatican
Film Library’s screening room, located in the Palazzo San Carlo, in
Vatican City. It is not known whether the pope will attend.
On Tuesday, “Silence” screened for roughly 300 Jesuit priests at the
Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome, in what amounted to the film’s de
facto world premiere. Attendees were able to discuss the film with
Scorsese afterwards...
While it’s not unusual for new faith-based films to screen in Vatican
City for audiences largely made up of clergy, it’s rare for the Vatican
to become the first place where an upcoming Hollywood release gets its
first public screening.
https://variety.com/2016/film/global...201930025/amp/
__________________
“If we permit Communion for everyone, we then also
lose the concept of sin. It will then be destructive for the entire
morality of the Church.” Anonymous Synod Father
"...the boat has taken on so much water as to be on the verge of capsizing." Pope Benedict XVI
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Jan 14, '17, 4:51 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPUSC
It has the support of the Vatican.
The private papal audience, held in the Apostolic Palace, was announced
by the Vatican press office Tuesday in a clear show of support for
“Silence,” Scorsese’s passion project...
Francis, who is the first Jesuit pope, is known to have joined the
Jesuit order hoping to become a missionary in Japan. American priest
James Martin, who is editor of the Jesuit weekly “America,” served as a
consultant on “Silence.”
The Vatican press office said Francis had received Scorsese, who was
accompanied by his wife and two daughters, and described the 15-minute
meeting as “very cordial.” The pope told the group that he had read
Endo’s novel. He and Scorsese spoke about the experience of Jesuit
missionaries in Japan...
“Silence” will screen Wednesday afternoon in the roughly 50-seat Vatican
Film Library’s screening room, located in the Palazzo San Carlo, in
Vatican City. It is not known whether the pope will attend.
On Tuesday, “Silence” screened for roughly 300 Jesuit priests at the
Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome, in what amounted to the film’s de
facto world premiere. Attendees were able to discuss the film with
Scorsese afterwards...
While it’s not unusual for new faith-based films to screen in Vatican
City for audiences largely made up of clergy, it’s rare for the Vatican
to become the first place where an upcoming Hollywood release gets its
first public screening.
https://variety.com/2016/film/global...201930025/amp/ |
The Pope is able to see whatever movie he wants to see; that
doesn't change my mind; I still would not go see this film and
especially would not pay $ for the privilege of seeing it. 
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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Jan 14, '17, 7:52 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaida
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That was a fair review.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 14, '17, 7:58 pm
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Re: silence film
I liked the movie and am not sorry I saw it.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 15, '17, 1:52 pm
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Re: silence film
Click here to read Steven D. Greydanus's review of Silence.
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Jan 15, '17, 2:09 pm
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Re: silence film
im planning to see it,but it is not available yet in my area.im in
disbelief and disheartened .the closest cinema is about 4 hr drive one
way.
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Jan 15, '17, 3:39 pm
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Re: silence film
I just saw it, and am sorting out my thoughts on it.
Is it possible to edit the title to include the warning that this thread
will include Spoilers for those who have yet to see the film?
While this post is still in a Spoiler-Free Zone, let me say that solely
from a cinematic standpoint, I think it is the best thing Scorsese has
ever done. The imagery is amazing. The performances by both the
English-speaking and Japanese cast are excellent.
I'd also say for those thinking about seeing the film, it is engrossing
but not a "feel good" movie. The hero does not triumph and outwit his
enemies. In many ways, it is pretty depressing.
The tortures the Japanese government visited on Christians and
missionaries (both Jesuit and Franciscan) are depicted, but to his
credit, he does not dwell on the torture, in the way that Mel Gibson
might have chosen to do. (Scorsese dedicates the film at the end to the
Japanese Christians and Missionaries). The true torture of Fr. Rodrigo
is being forced to witness the torture of others, with the price of
their lives being his apostasy. This is Fr. Rodrigo's central conundrum:
what is the path to the imitation of Christ? Does he deny his own soul
to save his friends from further torture and humiliation? Its hard to
say "what would Jesus do?" in this case, and he has to make some hard
choices.
What the film is, is an extended (it's almost 3 hours long) meditation
on two central mysteries of the Catholic faith: Faith and Forgiveness.
The need for Salvation is something that is a recurring theme in most of
Scorsese's great films, this one is more overt than most.
I don't think that it any way glorifies apostasy (quite the opposite -
it's shown as horrible and soul-destroying), or shows a relativistic
view of religions. Buddhism is not shown in a positive light, which is
unusual in a Hollywood film.
The Japanese Christians are shown throughout as very human but also very
praiseworthy. The priests are also humans rather than plaster saints,
but both Garfield and Driver's characters act out of the best
motivations.
I recommend it highly.
SPOILERS NOW FOLLOW:
I think the film shows both the difficulties in faith when God appears
to be silent, and the central need to believe in the possibilities of
forgiveness, for ourselves and others, which may be the way we "hear"
the voice of God even when He appears to be silent.
It's interesting that we see the two priests administer Mass once during
the film, and we see a Baptism, but the sacrament we see again and
again is Confession. We see Kichijiro as failing again and again and
repeatedly betraying the priests, yet returning each time to ask for the
sacrament of Reconciliation. And again and again, we see Fr. Rodrigo
forgive him through the sacrament, both personally and in persona Christi.
Liam Neeson does a great job of portraying a man who is a husk of his
former self (again, I don't see in any way that his role is glorified -
it's like listening to the Tempter himself). Garfield is also great as a
priest who is attempting to emulate the life of Christ, and as he moves
closer and closer to his own personal Gethsemane, his hair and beard
grows longer and he looks more and more like the popular conception of
Jesus. After he fails (and when he does in fact, hear the voice of
Christ) - and you can hear the sound of a cock crowing thrice in the
background, if you listen closely - and becomes a thrall of the
Inquisitor (another great performance), he shaves his beard and pulls
his hair back, becoming sleeker and losing the appearance of Jesus.
Even after his apparent loss of faith (and again, his life is not
depicted glowingly - it looks more like a sort of death-in-life under a
horrifying dictatorship), he appears to consent to a final sacrament of
confession for the reappearing figure of Kichijiro, reflecting his
willingness to forgive. The final scene shows a continuing faith for
even a broken man.
The film also shows the difficulty in understanding the problem of
suffering, particularly when it happens to others. Fr. Rodrigo actively
seeks martyrdom, but instead is forced to witness it happening to those
he loves. For anyone who has ever suffered more while watching their
family or friends suffer, and wished that God would instead allow it to
happen to us as Christ accepted our sins and suffered for us, this
portion of the film is heart-rending.
Again, it is a think piece, not an action movie, and I would recommend
it. Go see it with another Catholic and go out and have some cake and
pie afterwards and talk about it.
__________________
"The path that leads us toward what is most consonant with us, pushes us into Mystery, makes us enter Mystery."
- Pope Francis
Last edited by Arizona Mike; Jan 15, '17 at 3:58 pm.
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Jan 15, '17, 3:59 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 4, 2014
Posts: 521
Religion: catholic
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofar
So does the end leave a sense of hope or
despair? That seems to be the main issue. I have not seen this movie but
I am wanting to, as I know the Pope also saw it.
But, we watch all kinds of things that are not edifying, which I try to
avoid. The real question is what does God show you when you watch this?
Do you think it is worthy of our time?
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It was uncomfortable to watch, but I don't regret seeing it,
because although it's based on a period in Japanese history I knew
nothing about, I have since been reading about the Japanese martyrs, and
have thought about the early Christians elsewhere who suffered so much
for the faith.
So in answer to your question, that's what God showed me.
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Jan 15, '17, 4:09 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 4, 2014
Posts: 521
Religion: catholic
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
I just saw it, and am sorting out my thoughts on it.
Is it possible to edit the title to include the warning that this thread
will include Spoilers for those who have yet to see the film?
While this post is still in a Spoiler-Free Zone, let me say that solely
from a cinematic standpoint, I think it is the best thing Scorsese has
ever done. The imagery is amazing. The performances by both the
English-speaking and Japanese cast are excellent.
I'd also say for those thinking about seeing the film, it is engrossing
but not a "feel good" movie. The hero does not triumph and outwit his
enemies. In many ways, it is pretty depressing.
The tortures the Japanese government visited on Christians and
missionaries (both Jesuit and Franciscan) are depicted, but to his
credit, he does not dwell on the torture, in the way that Mel Gibson
might have chosen to do. (Scorsese dedicates the film at the end to the
Japanese Christians and Missionaries). The true torture of Fr. Rodrigo
is being forced to witness the torture of others, with the price of
their lives being his apostasy. This is Fr. Rodrigo's central conundrum:
what is the path to the imitation of Christ? Does he deny his own soul
to save his friends from further torture and humiliation? Its hard to
say "what would Jesus do?" in this case, and he has to make some hard
choices.
What the film is, is an extended (it's almost 3 hours long) meditation
on two central mysteries of the Catholic faith: Faith and Forgiveness.
The need for Salvation is something that is a recurring theme in most of
Scorsese's great films, this one is more overt than most.
I don't think that it any way glorifies apostasy (quite the opposite -
it's shown as horrible and soul-destroying), or shows a relativistic
view of religions. Buddhism is not shown in a positive light, which is
unusual in a Hollywood film.
The Japanese Christians are shown throughout as very human but also very
praiseworthy. The priests are also humans rather than plaster saints,
but both Garfield and Driver's characters act out of the best
motivations.
I recommend it highly.
SPOILERS NOW FOLLOW:
I think the film shows both the difficulties in faith when God appears
to be silent, and the central need to believe in the possibilities of
forgiveness, for ourselves and others, which may be the way we "hear"
the voice of God even when He appears to be silent.
It's interesting that we see the two priests administer Mass once during
the film, and we see a Baptism, but the sacrament we see again and
again is Confession. We see Kichijiro as failing again and again and
repeatedly betraying the priests, yet returning each time to ask for the
sacrament of Reconciliation. And again and again, we see Fr. Rodrigo
forgive him through the sacrament, both personally and in persona Christi.
Liam Neeson does a great job of portraying a man who is a husk of his
former self (again, I don't see in any way that his role is glorified -
it's like listening to the Tempter himself). Garfield is also great as a
priest who is attempting to emulate the life of Christ, and as he moves
closer and closer to his own personal Gethsemane, his hair and beard
grows longer and he looks more and more like the popular conception of
Jesus. After he fails (and when he does in fact, hear the voice of
Christ) - and you can hear the sound of a cock crowing thrice in the
background, if you listen closely - and becomes a thrall of the
Inquisitor (another great performance), he shaves his beard and pulls
his hair back, becoming sleeker and losing the appearance of Jesus.
Even after his apparent loss of faith (and again, his life is not
depicted glowingly - it looks more like a sort of death-in-life under a
horrifying dictatorship), he appears to consent to a final sacrament of
confession for the reappearing figure of Kichijiro, reflecting his
willingness to forgive. The final scene shows a continuing faith for
even a broken man.
The film also shows the difficulty in understanding the problem of
suffering, particularly when it happens to others. Fr. Rodrigo actively
seeks martyrdom, but instead is forced to witness it happening to those
he loves. For anyone who has ever suffered more while watching their
family or friends suffer, and wished that God would instead allow it to
happen to us as Christ accepted our sins and suffered for us, this
portion of the film is heart-rending.
Again, it is a think piece, not an action movie, and I would recommend
it. Go see it with another Catholic and go out and have some cake and
pie afterwards and talk about it.
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You describe it so accurately.
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Jan 15, '17, 4:19 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: July 26, 2007
Posts: 4,428
Religion: Catholic
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Re: silence film
As I am quite sensitive to violence, I don't imagine I'll be seeing this. However, if it's OK with the Vatican, it's OK by me.
I do think that sometimes folks shy away from very nuanced, complicated,
books and films that shake you up and cause you to think. From all the
reviews I've read, this is certainly a film that makes you think,
examine your faith and consider disturbing questions.
Jan 15, '17, 6:38 pm
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Posts: 43,903
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
I just saw it, and am sorting out my thoughts on it.
Is it possible to edit the title to include the warning that this thread
will include Spoilers for those who have yet to see the film?
While this post is still in a Spoiler-Free Zone, let me say that solely
from a cinematic standpoint, I think it is the best thing Scorsese has
ever done. The imagery is amazing. The performances by both the
English-speaking and Japanese cast are excellent.
I'd also say for those thinking about seeing the film, it is engrossing
but not a "feel good" movie. The hero does not triumph and outwit his
enemies. In many ways, it is pretty depressing.
The tortures the Japanese government visited on Christians and
missionaries (both Jesuit and Franciscan) are depicted, but to his
credit, he does not dwell on the torture, in the way that Mel Gibson
might have chosen to do. (Scorsese dedicates the film at the end to the
Japanese Christians and Missionaries). The true torture of Fr. Rodrigo
is being forced to witness the torture of others, with the price of
their lives being his apostasy. This is Fr. Rodrigo's central conundrum:
what is the path to the imitation of Christ? Does he deny his own soul
to save his friends from further torture and humiliation? Its hard to
say "what would Jesus do?" in this case, and he has to make some hard
choices.
What the film is, is an extended (it's almost 3 hours long) meditation
on two central mysteries of the Catholic faith: Faith and Forgiveness.
The need for Salvation is something that is a recurring theme in most of
Scorsese's great films, this one is more overt than most.
I don't think that it any way glorifies apostasy (quite the opposite -
it's shown as horrible and soul-destroying), or shows a relativistic
view of religions. Buddhism is not shown in a positive light, which is
unusual in a Hollywood film.
The Japanese Christians are shown throughout as very human but also very
praiseworthy. The priests are also humans rather than plaster saints,
but both Garfield and Driver's characters act out of the best
motivations.
I recommend it highly.
SPOILERS NOW FOLLOW:
I think the film shows both the difficulties in faith when God appears
to be silent, and the central need to believe in the possibilities of
forgiveness, for ourselves and others, which may be the way we "hear"
the voice of God even when He appears to be silent.
It's interesting that we see the two priests administer Mass once during
the film, and we see a Baptism, but the sacrament we see again and
again is Confession. We see Kichijiro as failing again and again and
repeatedly betraying the priests, yet returning each time to ask for the
sacrament of Reconciliation. And again and again, we see Fr. Rodrigo
forgive him through the sacrament, both personally and in persona Christi.
Liam Neeson does a great job of portraying a man who is a husk of his
former self (again, I don't see in any way that his role is glorified -
it's like listening to the Tempter himself). Garfield is also great as a
priest who is attempting to emulate the life of Christ, and as he moves
closer and closer to his own personal Gethsemane, his hair and beard
grows longer and he looks more and more like the popular conception of
Jesus. After he fails (and when he does in fact, hear the voice of
Christ) - and you can hear the sound of a cock crowing thrice in the
background, if you listen closely - and becomes a thrall of the
Inquisitor (another great performance), he shaves his beard and pulls
his hair back, becoming sleeker and losing the appearance of Jesus.
Even after his apparent loss of faith (and again, his life is not
depicted glowingly - it looks more like a sort of death-in-life under a
horrifying dictatorship), he appears to consent to a final sacrament of
confession for the reappearing figure of Kichijiro, reflecting his
willingness to forgive. The final scene shows a continuing faith for
even a broken man.
The film also shows the difficulty in understanding the problem of
suffering, particularly when it happens to others. Fr. Rodrigo actively
seeks martyrdom, but instead is forced to witness it happening to those
he loves. For anyone who has ever suffered more while watching their
family or friends suffer, and wished that God would instead allow it to
happen to us as Christ accepted our sins and suffered for us, this
portion of the film is heart-rending.
Again, it is a think piece, not an action movie, and I would recommend
it. Go see it with another Catholic and go out and have some cake and
pie afterwards and talk about it.
|
very well said. I share your thoughts. I might add, the character who
seeks confession over and over points out that we must remember this is
17th century Japan.
There were no RCIA classes. They had been without a priest for sometime.
This is not modern day Catholicism in a country where there is
religious freedom. These were Catholic Christians living in fear and who
had seen family members and members of their community killed for their
faith.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 16, '17, 10:50 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: May 29, 2011
Posts: 2,220
Religion: Catholic
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofar
So does the end leave a sense of hope or
despair? That seems to be the main issue. I have not seen this movie but
I am wanting to, as I know the Pope also saw it.
But, we watch all kinds of things that are not edifying, which I try to
avoid. The real question is what does God show you when you watch this?
Do you think it is worthy of our time?
|
I would say yes, the end offers some hope. Rodriguez is defeated but he's not completely broken.
It's an intense and exhausting film. But good. So many moments had me in tears, and I'm not usually one to cry in a theater.
__________________
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair
-Chesterton
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Jan 19, '17, 1:16 pm
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Posts: 521
Religion: catholic
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Re: silence film
For those who've seen the film, you may find this interesting.
It's a reflection from Father James Marin who was a consultant on the film.
SPOILER ALERT.
Understanding "Silence".
http://www.americamagazine.org/issue...anding-silence
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Jan 19, '17, 5:20 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by rose kelly
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Thanks for posting that link, Rose - that was an interesting read.
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Jan 19, '17, 5:33 pm
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Re: silence film
Another article from America on Andrew Garfield's experience of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola: http://www.americamagazine.org/issue/grace-enough
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Jan 19, '17, 6:47 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by rose kelly
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That was a very good explanation by Father James Martin of how to
understand this movie. That is pretty much how I comprehended the movie.
Thanks for sharing this.
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Jan 20, '17, 2:30 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolen
I was very excited to see this movie.
I've never read (or even heard of) the book but the trailer looked
interesting and was thrilled that a big time Oscar bait director like
Martin Scorsese was making a movie about the Japanese martyrs.
After having watched the film however I'm very disappointed. Rather than
a movie about the courageous martyrs dying for the faith, it was a
movie about a man somewhat losing his faith and coming to grips with the
choice of apostasy.
The movie to me seems to promote a sense of relativism, a need to
privatize your faith, the idea that missionary work is immoral and that
this life is valued above the next. Am I overlooking something in this
movie? Are there any redeeming qualities that shows the truth of
catholic morality?
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I saw the movie too. I was disappointed in the priests who
apostesized. I recognize that the story was never a doctrinally pure
work. As far as any glimmer of goodness. I will say that the approach of
the inquisitor to persecution was extremely realistic and the
psychological games being played are the sort Christian's face today
around the world. The priests apostesized when he lost sight of The
worthiness of Christ. If all the world perished it would not outweigh
the devotion He deserves. We also see a type of peter in the movie who
unlike the priest, denies Christ three times but gives his life for his
savior in the end. Perhaps the worldly perspectives of Hollywood
injected into the movie are the more jarring because it is so vicious in
plot. I would challenge some whether they have the same disgust over
movies like how how to train your dragon, avatar, Star Wars that have
the same filthy doctrine under a facade of beauty.
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Jan 20, '17, 2:41 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammoths
I would challenge some whether they have
the same disgust over movies like how how to train your dragon, avatar,
Star Wars that have the same filthy doctrine under a facade of beauty.
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Can you expand on this? What is the 'same filthy doctrine' that
you see in these other movies? I've never associated them with anything
particularly objectionable.
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Jan 20, '17, 4:59 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolen
I was very excited to see this movie.
I've never read (or even heard of) the book but the trailer looked
interesting and was thrilled that a big time Oscar bait director like
Martin Scorsese was making a movie about the Japanese martyrs.
After having watched the film however I'm very disappointed. Rather than
a movie about the courageous martyrs dying for the faith, it was a
movie about a man somewhat losing his faith and coming to grips with the
choice of apostasy.
The movie to me seems to promote a sense of relativism, a need to
privatize your faith, the idea that missionary work is immoral and that
this life is valued above the next. Am I overlooking something in this
movie? Are there any redeeming qualities that shows the truth of
catholic morality?
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I saw the movie too. I was disappointed in the priests who
apostesized. I recognize that the story was never a doctrinally pure
work. As far as any glimmer of goodness. I will say that the approach of
the inquisitor to persecution was extremely realistic and the
psychological games being played are the sort Christian's face today
around the world. The priests apostesized when he lost sight of The
worthiness of Christ. If all the world perished it would not outweigh
the devotion He deserves. We also see a type of peter in the movie who
unlike the priest, denies Christ three times but gives his life for his
savior in the end. Perhaps the worldly perspectives of Hollywood
injected into the movie are the more jarring because it is so vicious in
plot. I would challenge some whether they have the same disgust over
movies like how how to train your dragon, avatar, Star Wars that have
the same filthy doctrine under a facade of beauty.
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Jan 20, '17, 6:42 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
Can you expand on this? What is the 'same
filthy doctrine' that you see in these other movies? I've never
associated them with anything particularly objectionable.
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Hiccup is a rebellious teenager who does not submit to his fathers
authority. We relate to him because within the plot his father, the
chief doesn't seem to have a clue. This is reminiscent of the devil's
pitch to Eve. Did God really say? Well I know better. While the chief is
not meant as a type of God, it seems there is a general attitude about
authority that is validated by Hiccup's success, which includes saving
Burk. It would be refreshing to see the rebellious teen learn obedience
by the things he suffered. There are bright spots too. In a sequel,
stoic the Vast finds His estranged queen and immediately begins wooing
her again as though fidelity and monogamy were superfluous to his
nobility. Great example!
In avatar there is a strong insinuation of nature worship. The
protagonist speaks to aiowa and refers to the way humans treated their
own mother. As Christians we worship God not the earth he created. Once
again there are also bright spots too where the movie mentiones the
CEO's greed for ""unobtainium". We know as Christians that true wealth
is found in Christ and not in the beggerly elements of the world.
In Star Wars, morality is rejected entirely and sin is replaced with the
dark side of the force which is inexorably in balance with the light.
Although the characters seem to perceive good and evil, that is not the
nature of the force or its prophecies. This is reminiscent of
panantheism, the idea that Creation is just a part of God or his dream.
Nothing is truly Good or evil. We are all just parts of the Devine
imagination. As Christians we know the creator transcends and rules over
nature and judges Good from evil with righteousness.
Let me say, I enjoyed all these movies but I don't use them to inform my
faith but rather I habitually challenge the assumptions of our culture
in pursuit of the wisdom from above which is first pure. I consciously
reject the subversive doctrines of pop culture which all have one thing
in common, the notion that some way other than Jesus will work for 'me'
if I want. In the mart of movies targeted to people of faith I expect
the pagan or backslid movie maker to be influenced by the world. So I
like the movie silence. It is a well made movie with a thoughtful story
about faithfulness, persecution, and forgiveness. I may not come to the
same conclusions as the writer, but seeing those actors depict the
priests' struggle with the cost of their steadfastness made me
appreciate all the more at what great cost the Gospel is preserved and
delivered to the world.
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Jan 22, '17, 10:43 am
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Re: silence film
Why can't they make for once an uplifting movie about our Catholic
faith? if they Pope likes this type of movie, fine, but why can't they
make something that can make us leave the theater feeling good about our
wonderful faith.???
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Jan 22, '17, 11:10 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
The Pope is able to see whatever movie he
wants to see; that doesn't change my mind; I still would not go see
this film and especially would not pay $ for the privilege of seeing it. |
I'm reminded of the reaction to Graham Greene's novels, The Power and the Glory and The Heart of the Matter.. Like Scorsese's film, they were controversial among Catholics.
Greene, many years later, met Pope Paul VI in 1965. The Pope said to
Greene " "Mr. Greene, some aspects of your books are certain to offend
some Catholics, but you should pay no attention to that."
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Jan 22, '17, 2:02 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolNoel
Why can't they make for once an uplifting
movie about our Catholic faith? if they Pope likes this type of movie,
fine, but why can't they make something that can make us leave the
theater feeling good about our wonderful faith.???
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You first. I would love to see it. I am sure there is a market for
movies and literature that shows the good side. And it would be worth
doing. Actually, it's not exactly a catholic movie per say, but I
thought the priest in grand Torino conducted himself well. He was
youthful but honorable. Also the protagonist was a colorful man who was
struggling with faith, but still a heroic figure overall. I personally
did not feel like anyone's faith was being maligned in that movie.
Last edited by Mammoths; Jan 22, '17 at 2:13 pm.
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Jan 23, '17, 9:28 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inisfallen
I'm reminded of the reaction to Graham Greene's novels, The Power and the Glory and The Heart of the Matter.. Like Scorsese's film, they were controversial among Catholics.
Greene, many years later, met Pope Paul VI in 1965. The Pope said to
Greene " "Mr. Greene, some aspects of your books are certain to offend
some Catholics, but you should pay no attention to that."
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Silence has a lot in common with Power and the Glory actually, now
that you mention it. Same theme. Even has a mestizo-like character.
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Jan 23, '17, 11:05 pm
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Re: silence film
It is definitely a violent film. It wasn't terribly gory in my opinion though.
For me it was a very disturbing and dark movie just because the topics
hit so close to home. It hurts to see members of the Church being beaten
down, tempted, and failing. I don't think it portrays the Church
negatively and there is certainly much virtue among every Catholic in
the movie.
It was depressing but it was also very inspiring I felt. I would recommend it.
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Jan 24, '17, 5:17 pm
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Re: silence film
Would love to see Silence but it is still not playing in my city. And I
live in a major one in Tennessee. I'm beginning to think that there is
some conspiracy that it hasn't played here. Plus this Academy Award
snub?
Hollywood doesn't want people to see these films.
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for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter.............Isaiah 5:20
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Jan 25, '17, 7:40 am
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Re: silence film
I'm very shocked this movie was only nominated for one Oscar. And it wasn't even a major award either.
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Jan 25, '17, 7:35 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolen
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I liked the film and thought it was a beautiful story. I am glad I read the article by the consultant, Fr. James Martin, S.J.
I would like to see it a second time because I am sure I missed some things the first
time.
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Jan 27, '17, 6:38 am
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Re: silence film
I have made a thread about this before:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1032654
Judging by the comments in this thread, and from comments by faithful
Catholics ever since the film premiered, this movie (and I am going to
extend this to the novel) has divided Catholics - but in a good way. Not
in a way that might create rupture (like a certain *ahem* thing going
on today) but in a way that creates debate and conversation among
faithful Catholics about what the film/novel is supposed to mean, what
its purpose is, and how it relates to the person.
Which leads me to reply to this comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolNoel
Why can't they make for once an uplifting
movie about our Catholic faith? if they Pope likes this type of movie,
fine, but [i][b]why can't they make something that can make us leave the
theater feeling good about our wonderful faith.???
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.... because, to be honest.... life isn't always like that.
Sometimes art has to reflect life as it is, as it is lived through
experience, even through an experience such as persecution, in order to
get to the Truth about the human condition. In the case of Silence, human weakness and suffering.
I feel compelled to write a thesis/long essay on the themes of Silence.
The film hasn't premiered here in the Philippines, and I sense that it might not premiere at all. 
I have the novel though... but I always try to watch the movie before I
read the novel. I'm bad at imagining characters whenever I read
fiction...
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Jan 27, '17, 12:13 pm
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Re: silence film
"But the talk is not about all this standard (powerful) Catholic stuff. Because it is not clear that Silence
is simply about the weakness of a sinner in the face of unbearable
circumstances and the mercy he or she encounters at the other end of the
“thread.”
And this is because Silence, following Shūsaku Endō’s 1966 novel
of the same name, doesn’t tell us that after the famous apostasy of the
first Portuguese priest, delegations of priests offered to go to Japan
to suffer martyrdom to do penance for him. Instead, it
concentrates our attention on those who apostatized, suggesting that
Jesus himself may have given them the “thumbs up.”
From a review by Margaret Harper McCarthy here.
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Jan 27, '17, 12:13 pm
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Re: silence film
Our local television news movie critic panned it, and badly - he said it
was long, dull and empty of meaning. (He tends to like movies that are
crowd-pleasing entertainment, however.)
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Jan 27, '17, 1:56 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
Our local television news movie critic
panned it, and badly - he said it was long, dull and empty of meaning.
(He tends to like movies that are crowd-pleasing entertainment,
however.)
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Yes, psychological stories about martyrdom aren't particularly
bound to be crowd pleasers. One wonders what he would make of the story
of Christ's martyrdom, absent any background introduction. Does make for
an interesting point to ponder.
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Jan 27, '17, 2:11 pm
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Re: silence film
glad I checked the reviews first
Silence + Scorcese film + directed Last Temptation of Christ = watching John Wick 2 instead
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Jan 27, '17, 2:32 pm
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Re: silence film
Silence still now showing where I am at in Tennessee.
As for the Scorsese hate over Last Temptation, you people need to get over it.
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Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter.............Isaiah 5:20
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Jan 27, '17, 2:42 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCEL
Yes, psychological stories about
martyrdom aren't particularly bound to be crowd pleasers. One wonders
what he would make of the story of Christ's martyrdom, absent any
background introduction. Does make for an interesting point to ponder.
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Yes, on the one hand this critic may just be a shallow person, on
the other hand it's certainly possible for a 'prestige' movie like this
to be dull and sanctimonious. I guess the only way to find the truth is
to go to the cinema and see it.
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Jan 27, '17, 5:04 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
Yes, on the one hand this critic may just
be a shallow person, on the other hand it's certainly possible for a
'prestige' movie like this to be dull and sanctimonious. I guess the
only way to find the truth is to go to the cinema and see it.
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It was not dull or sanctimonious.
A redemption from The Last Temptation.
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Jan 27, '17, 5:04 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by punisherthunder
Silence still now showing where I am at in Tennessee.
As for the Scorsese hate over Last Temptation, you people need to get over it.
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I agree.
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Jan 28, '17, 2:52 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
Our local television news movie critic
panned it, and badly - he said it was long, dull and empty of meaning.
(He tends to like movies that are crowd-pleasing entertainment,
however.)
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I think the reason why Silence for some people is slow and
"dull" is because the novel's pace itself is slow. At least that's what
how one of my priests describe the novel when he read it, since it
involves the long arduous journey from Rome to Lisbon to Macau and to
(southern?) Japan. This wasn't set in the days of jet planes, people!
By the way, readers of the book, how is the movie faithful to the source? I know some of you have read it.
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Jan 28, '17, 9:42 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
I think the reason why Silence for
some people is slow and "dull" is because the novel's pace itself is
slow. At least that's what how one of my priests describe the novel when
he read it, since it involves the long arduous journey from Rome to
Lisbon to Macau and to (southern?) Japan. This wasn't set in the days of
jet planes, people!
By the way, readers of the book, how is the movie faithful to the source? I know some of you have read it.
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I read the book a long time ago and it was a library copy. I am
contemplating whether to watch the movie or not. Many reviews have
mentioned that the apostate priests not only apostasize, but actually
collaborate with the Japanese officials in their crackdown on
Christians, essentially betraying not only the institutional Church, but
their own flocks. And that ironically, it is Kichijiro, the
contemptible weakling, who actually ends his life justified as a martyr.
And while the priest's ultimate eternal fate is of course unknown, I
suspect that even if he made it to Heaven he spent a long time in
Purgatory first; he certainly did not earn a martyr's crown.
But I really didn't get that impression from the end of the book, that
the priests had completely betrayed their mission. I got the sense that
the priests actually continue their ministry in a more covert way, and
they came off much more sympathetically. But my interpretation of the
book certainly could be mistaken.
ETA: BTW one interesting point is that to most Japanese people, when
they hear "Christian" they think of Catholics, not Protestants. Quite
different from the US where most people think "Christians" are not
Catholic.
I know an elderly Japanese man, who actually had been in the US for
years, and he was actually shocked to see a TV show portraying a married
Protestant minister, as he'd assumed all Christian "priests" were
forbidden to marry.
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Jan 28, '17, 11:10 am
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Re: silence film
Commentary on this film by Catholic scholar John Horvat II:
Quote:
Such a shallow story (i.e., 'Martin Scorsese’s latest film “Silence') so
contrary to all Church teaching would usually pose no threat to
Catholics who are firm in their Faith. However, Hollywood has
tragically assumed the role of a teaching authority to countless
American Catholics. Thus, the principal lesson taught by the film—that
outwardly denying the Faith can sometimes be justified and even desired
by God—does pose a danger to the many uncatechized that might mistake
Hollywood script for Scriptures. Any silence about “Silence” might be misconstrued as consent . . .
Such a combination leads to absurd characterizations like that of
“Silence.” Martyrdom cannot be based on emotion or feeling since it
involves surrendering man’s greatest natural gift—life. This is
something so difficult that it is beyond human strength to achieve. Martyrdom
must entail grace, which enlightens the intellect and strengthens the
will to allow Christians to do that which is beyond human nature. God’s grace would never allow a person to deny Christ before men.
Martyrdom—The Fruit of Grace . . .
And that is why faithful Catholics cannot remain silent in the face of
Scorcese’s “Silence.” Scorcese’s film is a tragic denial of God’s grace
in a world in dire need of it. In these days when Catholics are being
martyred, Catholics need to know that God is never silent. They will never be put in a situation where God betrays Himself. He will always be there when needed.
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http://www.returntoorder.org/2017/01...seses-silence/
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Jan 28, '17, 1:24 pm
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Re: silence film
I will not watch it because I'm extremely sensitive and can't take
violence or even a little gore. The opinions on this film seem pretty
divided but I'm glad it's getting people with differing views to have
intelligent discussion.
I go to a Jesuit parish and the pastor is not a fan and even said that
he didn't recommend the movie which I found interesting. He made sure to
include his opinion during the announcements so I guess he feels
strongly about it. 
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Jan 30, '17, 4:34 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
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Seems strange to say God's grace would never allow a person to
deny him before men. God's grace can't override free will. Also this
actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith really did get forced
into apostasy to save their flock.
And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie
doesn't present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way
it goes down.) it's a Hollywood film that presents priests as
courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real
joy and peace to the people. That's pretty big IMO. Maybe this will
open people up to researching Catholicism.
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God
is constantly silent. That's what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
I've been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I'm
trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed
in my face. I'm going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he
was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all
along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I
started sobbing right then and there. I'm not exaggerating that it might
have saved me. That's what good art can do. It doesn't always give a
perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
__________________
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair
-Chesterton
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Jan 30, '17, 7:20 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn p
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God
is constantly silent. That's what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
|
True.
I think one of the big themes that many faithful Catholic reviews that
criticize the movie ignore is the problem of evil, which is a legitimate
problem for someone struggling with suffering and death all around him
or her. You can't expect everyone to have strong faith in God, and it's a
legitimate concern for those who are even struggling to be certain of
God's existence.
This makes these reviews almost reductive in their analysis.
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Jan 30, '17, 9:59 pm
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Re: silence film
i read the book. it is very depressing and sad.
i would not want to see the movie
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Jan 31, '17, 6:05 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn p
Seems strange to say God's grace would
never allow a person to deny him before men. God's grace can't override
free will. Also this actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith
really did get forced into apostasy to save their flock.
And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie
doesn't present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way
it goes down.) it's a Hollywood film that presents priests as
courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real
joy and peace to the people. That's pretty big IMO. Maybe this will
open people up to researching Catholicism.
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God
is constantly silent. That's what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
I've been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I'm
trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed
in my face. I'm going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he
was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all
along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I
started sobbing right then and there. I'm not exaggerating that it might
have saved me. That's what good art can do. It doesn't always give a
perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
|
Atheists criticized Mother Teresa's dark night as evidence that
she was a fake. To be near Christ's cross is not an easy place to be,
and feeling cut-off from God is one of the fallouts of original sin. I
went through it in high school, though not to the same degree as others.
I only just discovered a few months ago that it was a dark night of the
senses. (Not even a dark night of the soul.) It was difficult.
|
Jan 31, '17, 1:44 pm
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Re: silence film
*SPOILER ALERT - there are spoilers throughout this thread, but I still feel it necessary and polite to put out a SPOILER ALERT*
I'm sad to read so many Catholics refusing to see this movie or give the
story the attention that it deserves simply because of Rodrigues's
apostasy. Neither the book nor the movie is suggesting that apostasy is
any kind of acceptable answer or lifestyle. Rather, both the movie and
the book present the horns of a terrible dilemma, that when you
contemplate further, you will find that is is as profound and rewarding
as it is challenging and tragic. I encourage all of you to strip
yourselves of your rash judgements and give this story a chance. Put
yourself in the shoes of Rodrigues, and be honest with yourselves as to
what you would choose when presented with such a terrible choice.
Put yourself in the center of the most brutal and cruel Christian
persecution in history. Spend months ministering to these people in
secret, with danger of discovery haunting your every step. Have some of
of your flock repeatedly apostatize and then return seeking
reconciliation. Continually pray and ask for God's guidance, but only
receiving silence in reply. Continually pray for the suffering of your
flock to be eased, but again, only receiving silence in reply. For
months and months, pray but receive nothing but silence. And then be
captured and forced to sit there watching and listening as your flock is
tortured, and having the power to stop it by merely stepping on an
image of Christ. Imagine in that terrible moment, hearing a voice that
you believe to be the voice of Christ in your head telling you to step
on the image...
What would you do?
Remember, they weren't torturing Rodrigues. He wasn't doing it to save
himself. And while it isn't possible to determine if the voice is
actually Christ's voice or not, it is at least presented as an authentic
voice of some kind. The silence is finally broken, but it's telling him
to do something that contradicts everything he has done up to that
point. His life's work, his suffering up to that point, his entire
belief structure, is all undone with the voice that finally breaks the
silence.
What would you do?
Would you seriously let other people, innocent people, die for your
faith? Would you ignore the voice of Christ? Or would you commit to the
paradox of apostasy in the name of true faith? Would you condemn
yourself to save others? Would you give up your life's work if Christ
told you to? Would you deny Christ's name externally in order to obey
Christ's command internally? And if so, how could you ever be sure that
it was Christ's command?
This choice, this dilemma, is the point of the story. Not apostasy. Not
torture. Not some convoluted relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson.
This terrible choice, if you really think it through, and really put
yourself in Rodrigues's place, I think you will find that he isn't just
some faithless apostate, but rather a martyr of a different and more
tragic sort.
I can understand some resistance to supporting Scorcese. But do yourself a favor and at least read the novel.
Thanks for your time.
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Jan 31, '17, 5:48 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaXIII
*SPOILER ALERT - there are spoilers throughout this thread, but I still feel it necessary and polite to put out a SPOILER ALERT*
I'm sad to read so many Catholics refusing to see this movie or give the
story the attention that it deserves simply because of Rodrigues's
apostasy. Neither the book nor the movie is suggesting that apostasy is
any kind of acceptable answer or lifestyle. Rather, both the movie and
the book present the horns of a terrible dilemma, that when you
contemplate further, you will find that is is as profound and rewarding
as it is challenging and tragic. I encourage all of you to strip
yourselves of your rash judgements and give this story a chance. Put
yourself in the shoes of Rodrigues, and be honest with yourselves as to
what you would choose when presented with such a terrible choice.
Put yourself in the center of the most brutal and cruel Christian
persecution in history. Spend months ministering to these people in
secret, with danger of discovery haunting your every step. Have some of
of your flock repeatedly apostatize and then return seeking
reconciliation. Continually pray and ask for God's guidance, but only
receiving silence in reply. Continually pray for the suffering of your
flock to be eased, but again, only receiving silence in reply. For
months and months, pray but receive nothing but silence. And then be
captured and forced to sit there watching and listening as your flock is
tortured, and having the power to stop it by merely stepping on an
image of Christ. Imagine in that terrible moment, hearing a voice that
you believe to be the voice of Christ in your head telling you to step
on the image...
What would you do?
Remember, they weren't torturing Rodrigues. He wasn't doing it to save
himself. And while it isn't possible to determine if the voice is
actually Christ's voice or not, it is at least presented as an authentic
voice of some kind. The silence is finally broken, but it's telling him
to do something that contradicts everything he has done up to that
point. His life's work, his suffering up to that point, his entire
belief structure, is all undone with the voice that finally breaks the
silence.
What would you do?
Would you seriously let other people, innocent people, die for your
faith? Would you ignore the voice of Christ? Or would you commit to the
paradox of apostasy in the name of true faith? Would you condemn
yourself to save others? Would you give up your life's work if Christ
told you to? Would you deny Christ's name externally in order to obey
Christ's command internally? And if so, how could you ever be sure that
it was Christ's command?
This choice, this dilemma, is the point of the story. Not apostasy. Not
torture. Not some convoluted relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson.
This terrible choice, if you really think it through, and really put
yourself in Rodrigues's place, I think you will find that he isn't just
some faithless apostate, but rather a martyr of a different and more
tragic sort.
I can understand some resistance to supporting Scorcese. But do yourself a favor and at least read the novel.
Thanks for your time.
|
very good summary. I agree people should watch the movie.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Jan 31, '17, 6:08 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaXIII
This choice, this dilemma, is the point
of the story. Not apostasy. Not torture. Not some convoluted
relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson. This terrible choice, if you
really think it through, and really put yourself in Rodrigues's place, I
think you will find that he isn't just some faithless apostate, but
rather a martyr of a different and more tragic sort.
|
... which gives me some thought about those who criticize the movie for it "glorifying" apostasy.
Have we, Catholics who have enjoyed religious freedom and the comforts
of the modern age for so long, forgotten what it feels like to be
persecuted under the threat of death? I mean, religious freedom
is being threatened now in the West, but such persecution has not
reached that level wherein being a Catholic means being sentenced to
death. One of the main themes of Silence is human weakness, and I
think the movie reminds us that even the most loyal and faithful of men
can be susceptible to weakness under such pressing circumstances.
Fr. Rodrigues is an apostate, yes, and what he did was a sin. But
considering the circumstances of 17th century Japan, would we be too
quick to judge his soul if we considered Fr. Rodrigues to be an apostate
forever? Remember we as Christians should only judge actions, not
souls, for the judgement of the soul is only reserved by God.
I already knew Fr. Rodrigues apostatized but I don't know the details
afterwards, so my analysis in the paragraph above is pending until I
watched the movie.
__________________
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Jan 31, '17, 6:15 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
... which gives me some thought about those who criticize the movie for it "glorifying" apostasy.
Have we, Catholics who have enjoyed religious freedom and the comforts
of the modern age for so long, forgotten what it feels like to be
persecuted under the threat of death? I mean, religious freedom
is being threatened now in the West, but such persecution has not
reached that level wherein being a Catholic means being sentenced to
death. One of the main themes of Silence is human weakness, and I
think the movie reminds us that even the most loyal and faithful of men
can be susceptible to weakness under such pressing circumstances.
Fr. Rodrigues is an apostate, yes, and what he did was a sin. But
considering the circumstances of 17th century Japan, would we be too
quick to judge his soul if we considered Fr. Rodrigues to be an apostate
forever? Remember we as Christians should only judge actions, not
souls, for the judgement of the soul is only reserved by God.
I already knew Fr. Rodrigues apostatized but I don't know the details
afterwards, so my analysis in the paragraph above is pending until I
watched the movie.
|
It definitely makes one appreciate being able to worship freely
and have priests available to us and have weekday and weekend Masses. We
have the Sacraments available to us and continuing adult religious
education. We are blessed with so much and the Catholics in Japan were
so hungry for their faith. They tried their best to keep the faith
alive.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 5, '17, 5:18 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn p
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God
is constantly silent. That's what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
|
To say that God is constantly silent is overstating the matter.
Quote:
Full Question
One huge impediment to my faith is that God never communicates with me. I
pray daily, attend Mass often, and confess at least twice a month. But I
still feel nothing but emptiness and silence from God. How is it
possible to have a relationship with God if he won't at least have a
conversation with me?
Answer
If God ever ignored you, you would cease to exist. He affirms you with
your every heartbeat. Are you disgruntled because he isn’t conforming to
your standards? He speaks to you on his terms all the time. And I don’t
mean just through his creation. He speaks to you by the gift of faith
that he has given you. He speaks to you from every crucifix you have
ever seen. But most of all he speaks to you from the chalice on the
altar which contains the blood that he willingly shed for you. Think of
this: We are attracted to the good in things and then love them for that
reason. But when God loves things, he makes them lovable by loving
them. When we look at a crucifix and see how much he loves us, we also
see how lovable we are!
All of this is Jesus speaking to us. But we have to be focused on him
and not what we want from him. As for the good feelings that you want,
he obviously has not determined that they would be the best for you at
this time. Mother Teresa went without such gratification for 20 years.
But he still spoke to her through the graces he gave her. I’m sure she
would tell you that such gratification is worth waiting for.
-- Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.
|
https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-is-god-silent
We can hear God speaking to us through our conscience; during prayer;
and God speaks to us through the Bible (i.e., The Word of the Lord).
But we also need to be silent ourselves and put away some of that noise which fills the world and listen to God.
http://catholicexchange.com/hear-god-speaking-to-you
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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Feb 5, '17, 8:08 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn p
Seems strange to say God's grace would
never allow a person to deny him before men. God's grace can't override
free will. Also this actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith
really did get forced into apostasy to save their flock.
And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie
doesn't present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way
it goes down.) it's a Hollywood film that presents priests as
courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real
joy and peace to the people. That's pretty big IMO. Maybe this will
open people up to researching Catholicism.
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God
is constantly silent. That's what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
I've been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I'm
trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed
in my face. I'm going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he
was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all
along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I
started sobbing right then and there. I'm not exaggerating that it might
have saved me. That's what good art can do. It doesn't always give a
perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
|
Good points!
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 6, '17, 1:13 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
|
True, true. God isn't actually silent if you know where to look.
But how can you explain that to a person who as seen so much suffering
and death that it seems like God isn't responding to any of his or her
prayers? Such an answer is sufficient for someone who isn't in that kind
of life-threatening circumstance. It's a legitimate problem for someone
who wants to know if God actually cares for us... and that's the kind
of problem Silence explores.
__________________
"Life is like a rosary - it's full of mysteries"
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Feb 6, '17, 8:02 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
True, true. God isn't actually silent if you know where to look.
But how can you explain that to a person who as seen so much suffering
and death that it seems like God isn't responding to any of his or her
prayers? Such an answer is sufficient for someone who isn't in that kind
of life-threatening circumstance. It's a legitimate problem for someone
who wants to know if God actually cares for us... and that's the kind
of problem Silence explores.
|
Yes. Exactly.
__________________
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair
-Chesterton
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Feb 6, '17, 10:18 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by punisherthunder
As for the Scorsese hate over Last Temptation, you people need to get over it.
|
I did. With my foot.
__________________
"I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ – though
it contains...some samples or glimpses of final victory.” -J.R.R.
Tolkien
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Feb 7, '17, 1:49 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by minion
I did. With my foot.
|
what does that mean?
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 8, '17, 6:20 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
what does that mean?
|
Scorcese's blasphemous films advocating apostasy were speaking to me. They said it was okay to step on them.
So I obliged 
__________________
"I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ – though
it contains...some samples or glimpses of final victory.” -J.R.R.
Tolkien
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Feb 10, '17, 3:46 pm
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Re: silence film
Haven't seen it yet, but will. I was intrigued when I first read the
synopsis. I did some research on the history irl, then wrote a poem on
it. Five connected Haiku, actually, though I'm shopping it as a single
piece.
Interesting to read some of the differing perspectives here.
__________________
MS, MFA Writing.
Furthermore, abortion on demand must end!
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Feb 15, '17, 12:52 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1970
|
thanks for sharing! I liked the movie.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 15, '17, 12:57 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
thanks for sharing! I liked the movie.
|
Thought it may be interesting for people who had heard of the
novel and/or film but didn't know the background to it. As I mentioned, I
have recently read the novel - I think that "thought-provoking" would
be the best description I could give especially knowing the context. For
me it became a bit of an examination of conscience - how would I have
reacted in that situation?
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Feb 15, '17, 3:02 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1970
Thought it may be interesting for people
who had heard of the novel and/or film but didn't know the background to
it. As I mentioned, I have recently read the novel - I think that
"thought-provoking" would be the best description I could give
especially knowing the context. For me it became a bit of an examination
of conscience - how would I have reacted in that situation?
|
exactly.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 24, '17, 8:04 am
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Re: silence film
I read this morning on a post in the 'First Things' blog that Silence
made only a paltry $7 million (and it cost $45 million to make), despite
having a big name director and cast. Also it wasn't nominated for any
Academy Awards. So it seems hard not to conclude it has been a bit of a
flop, deservedly or not.
I know what kept me away was what I expected to be gruesomely authentic
torture scenes and the overall depressing tone of the film. I may still
try to watch it at some point; I do think it probably has some redeeming
qualities.
__________________
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
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Feb 24, '17, 8:51 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
I read this morning on a post in the
'First Things' blog that Silence made only a paltry $7 million (and it
cost $45 million to make), despite having a big name director and cast.
Also it wasn't nominated for any Academy Awards. So it seems hard not to
conclude it has been a bit of a flop, deservedly or not..
|
It was nominated for Best Cinematography.... and only that.
I was disappointed when it was the only category it was nominated
in. That and Amy Adams not being given a nomination for Best Actress of
her heart-piercing performance in Arrival.
I wouldn't call Silence a flop. That's too harsh of a word. I'll
say that it's due to the circumstances it is in. Being a movie buff who
loves watching the Oscars I've noticed that the December-January film
season is when you have a torrent of Oscar-bait movies premiering. Often
it's a (metaphorical) bloodbath. Silence happened to be in the
middle of it, unfortunately, and it lead to its demise. If it was
released in September or October it would have had a better chance.
__________________
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Feb 24, '17, 9:09 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
It was nominated for Best Cinematography.... and only that.
I was disappointed when it was the only category it was nominated
in. That and Amy Adams not being given a nomination for Best Actress of
her heart-piercing performance in Arrival.
I wouldn't call Silence a flop. That's too harsh of a word. I'll
say that it's due to the circumstances it is in. Being a movie buff who
loves watching the Oscars I've noticed that the December-January film
season is when you have a torrent of Oscar-bait movies premiering. Often
it's a (metaphorical) bloodbath. Silence happened to be in the
middle of it, unfortunately, and it lead to its demise. If it was
released in September or October it would have had a better chance. |
It's basically a flop if it doesn't make back its budget, no? I'm
glad it was nominated for one academy award, at least. I have a fondness
for the novel it was based on, and I do think Scorcese is trying to
grapple with his spiritual identity and with meaning in general in a way
that it more honest and authentically Catholic than he did when he made
'The Last Temptation of Christ.'
The blogger at First Things opined that it failed to find an audience
and/or didn't garner many awards because it 'was too Christian for
Hollywood and too Hollywood for Christians' or something like that.
__________________
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
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Feb 24, '17, 10:07 am
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
I read this morning on a post in the
'First Things' blog that Silence made only a paltry $7 million (and it
cost $45 million to make), despite having a big name director and cast.
Also it wasn't nominated for any Academy Awards. So it seems hard not to
conclude it has been a bit of a flop, deservedly or not.
I know what kept me away was what I expected to be gruesomely authentic
torture scenes and the overall depressing tone of the film. I may still
try to watch it at some point; I do think it probably has some redeeming
qualities.
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there was really only one scene that I found gruesome.
this type of movie does not have broad appeal. people interested in
history or religion would be drawn to see the movie. I am not sure
Scorcese made the movie expecting to make a lot of money.
Many Catholics were warned not to see the movie if their faith is weak.
I thought it was a good movie and certainly felt I got my money's worth
more than I did with Arrival. That movie was just awful. I can't believe
it has even been nominated for any awards. Silence deserves more awards
or nominations than Arrival.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 24, '17, 10:23 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: April 25, 2007
Posts: 7,539
Religion: Catholic
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
there was really only one scene that I found gruesome.
this type of movie does not have broad appeal. people interested in
history or religion would be drawn to see the movie. I am not sure
Scorcese made the movie expecting to make a lot of money.
Many Catholics were warned not to see the movie if their faith is weak.
I thought it was a good movie and certainly felt I got my money's worth
more than I did with Arrival. That movie was just awful. I can't believe
it has even been nominated for any awards. Silence deserves more awards
or nominations than Arrival.
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Thanks, your input made me feel I should watch 'Silence.' I'm very
squeamish about watching realistic violence and suffering on television
and in movies. I never used to be like that but ever since having
children I've become perhaps a little too empathetic towards others'
suffering. I can't even watch an episode of 'The Sopranos' without being
on edge the whole time and I wouldn't even try 'Game of Thrones' based
on what I've read about it, if I had HBO that is.
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If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
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Feb 25, '17, 8:07 am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: January 4, 2016
Posts: 191
Religion: Catholic
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Religious Speech and Action Silenced
In Scorsese’s adaptation of Endo’s novel, a stark depiction of statism against religion
Decades in the making, Martin Scorsese’s Silence, based on Shūsaku
Endō’s 1966 novel, about 17th-century Jesuit missionaries to Japan, is
ambitious and alternately gorgeous and horrifying. It is surprising that
a film of this magnitude would be all but completely snubbed for Oscar
nominations, particularly in the now-expanded category of Best Picture,
where the competition is soft indeed. Silence’s sole Oscar nomination is
for cinematography, and that is well deserved. With its focus on
valleys and mountains shrouded in fog, the film often has the look of
the movies of the great Japanese filmmaker Akira Kurosawa.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...&utm_term=VDHM
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Feb 27, '17, 6:57 pm
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Re: silence film
Just a question to anyone who has watched the movie. Does the Japanese dialogue have any subtitles?
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"Life is like a rosary - it's full of mysteries"
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Feb 27, '17, 9:05 pm
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
Just a question to anyone who has watched the movie. Does the Japanese dialogue have any subtitles?
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To be honest I cannot remember if there were any subtitles!
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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Feb 27, '17, 9:09 pm
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Regular Member
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
Just a question to anyone who has watched the movie. Does the Japanese dialogue have any subtitles?
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Yes, from what I remember. There might have been a couple moments where it's left untranslated though.
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Mar 19, '17, 6:34 am
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Re: silence film
I still haven't watched Silence because I couldn't find a way to watch it. The DVD's going to be out at the end of the month, so that's promising.
http://www.dvdsreleasedates.com/movies/6766/silence
Which brings me to my question:
Is it wise to watch Silence on Good Friday?
I'll be staying home for Good Friday, because usually we would have a
tradition (that's practiced by us Filipinos on Holy Week) of visiting
seven churches on Good Friday. But since I'm a bit worried of my
father's health because he's getting old, I feel that it's best to stay
at home?
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"Life is like a rosary - it's full of mysteries"
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Mar 19, '17, 12:55 pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: November 3, 2007
Posts: 305
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: silence film
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicWhovian
I still haven't watched Silence because I couldn't find a way to watch it. The DVD's going to be out at the end of the month, so that's promising.
http://www.dvdsreleasedates.com/movies/6766/silence
Which brings me to my question:
Is it wise to watch Silence on Good Friday?
I'll be staying home for Good Friday, because usually we would have a
tradition (that's practiced by us Filipinos on Holy Week) of visiting
seven churches on Good Friday. But since I'm a bit worried of my
father's health because he's getting old, I feel that it's best to stay
at home? |
I thought it was a well done film. But It was too depressing for
me to watch so close to Easter. Good Friday is a very depressing day but
it was also a great victory for humanity at the same time.
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Jun 10, '17, 10:11 am
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Re: silence film
A caller asked CA's Chief Apologist about the plot of this movie on a Recent Catholic Answers Live Open Forum.
It was the first question asked in the radio program:
Catholic Answers Live Open Forum June 8, 2017 edition:
00:57 - Under canon law, is an act of apostasy in defense of the life of another considered a venial or a mortal sin?
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/8053
Pauline Moral Principle: "One should never do evil so that good may come."
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(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
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