Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
As strange as it seems to our Hallmark
culture, the fact is that the sacrificial liturgy is a required part of
the Jewish faith, and one that they have mourned every year since the
Holy Temple was destroyed.
Should it be reinstated, I'd imagine fortunes to be made arranging for
sacrifices to be performed on behalf of Jews living overseas from
Jerusalem.
ICXC NIKA
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Its been nearly 2,000 years since burnt offerings were made in the
Temple. Add to that the fact that a large percentage of Jewish people
are either atheist at worst or a form of agnostic at best, I fail to see
how a first world nation could go back to an ancient practice normally
associated with pagan cultures. Like it or not, our sensibilities are
different now. Bob Dylan kind of sums it up succinctly:
God said to Abraham, "kill me a son."
Abe said, "man, you must be putting me on!" 
Nov 7, '16, 3:54 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockerfan
Isn't the Dome of the Rock built over the
sight believed to be where Abraham offered Isaac to God? I would think
that might be an impediment.
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The truth is that no one is sure exactly where the Temple and,
especially, the Holy of Holies stood. All Jews are still morally
prohibited from entering the Temple Mount for fear that they may tread
where the Holy of Holies stood. It is still considered to be sanctified
ground.
Undoubtably, the Dome of the Rock would have to go.
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Nov 7, '16, 7:17 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
Are you seriously suggesting that you desire a return of burnt offerings to God?
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Yes of course! Of course as Christians, we want/desire the return
of burnt offerings to G-d! G-d commanded us to bring the daily burnt
offering in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem for all eternity. Just in case
if you don't know, the Book of Revelation and prophet Ezekiel talks
about how there will be a Temple standing in New Jerusalem after the
second coming of Christ in the future. It also talks about how there
will be daily burnt offering in that Temple in heaven. If it is so
above, why not also here below? Of course, the atonement of sins has
been completed once and for all. But the purpose of the daily offering
today is to:
1) Serving a a memorial for Christ's perfect sacrifice
2) Carrying out G-d's eternal commandment which commands us to bring an offering.
G-d is the same yesterday, today, and for all eternity. As G-d commanded
us to build the Temple yesterday, we need the Temple today, where G-d's
presence LITERALLY dwells.
"“If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a
male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of
meeting, that he may be accepted before the Lord." -Leviticus 1:3-
__________________
ב״ה
"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
-Isaiah 2:3-
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Nov 7, '16, 7:45 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7777
Yes of course! Of course as Christians, we want/desire the return of burnt offerings to G-d!
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As Catholics, we certainly do not desire such a thing. The
sacrifice of the Mass is sufficient for salvation, not the burning of
animals. If God is satisfied with the sacrifice of His own Son, then
what use would He have of burnt offerings?
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Nov 7, '16, 7:53 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Ive heard the property sharing arrangement theory mentioned here and there. I think its very possible it will happen.
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Nov 7, '16, 8:00 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
As Catholics, we certainly do not desire
such a thing. The sacrifice of the Mass is sufficient for salvation, not
the burning of animals. If God is satisfied with the sacrifice of His
own Son, then what use would He have of burnt offerings?
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Of course, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the final sacrifice
that has redeemed us. The sacrifice in the Holy Temple is now merely
symbolic which is no longer valid in terms of salvation. But now the
thing is that the fact that the burnt sacrifices are symbolic is the key
point. The daily sacrifice still acts as a reminder of Christ's
sacrifice. Whenever we look at the daily sacrifice done at the Holy
Temple, we are to remember the crucifixion of G-d's one and only son,
our L-rd, Jesus Christ. What use would He have of burnt offerings? Well,
ask yourself why G-d decided to continue the sacrifice in the Temple in
Heaven in the future? The saints of the early days still went to the
Temple regularly. They never went around stopping people from entering
the Temple just because of Christ's sacrifice. They acknowledged the
importance of the Holy Temple and gathered there daily, for it is the
house of prayer for all people, of all nations, for all eternity.
"Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They
broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere
hearts," -Acts 2:46-
__________________
ב״ה
"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
-Isaiah 2:3-
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Nov 7, '16, 8:14 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekle
Ive heard the property sharing arrangement theory mentioned here and there. I think its very possible it will happen.
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There is no "property sharing arrangement." Do you honestly think
that the muslims who control the Temple Mount are going to allow a
Jewish presence? Besides, as I have pointed out before, according to the
Rabbis of Israel Jews are morally forbidden by the Torah to enter the
Temple Mount.
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Nov 7, '16, 8:22 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7777
Of course, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ
is the final sacrifice that has redeemed us. The sacrifice in the Holy
Temple is now merely symbolic which is no longer valid in terms of
salvation. But now the thing is that the fact that the burnt sacrifices
are symbolic is the key point. The daily sacrifice still acts as a
reminder of Christ's sacrifice. Whenever we look at the daily sacrifice
done at the Holy Temple, we are to remember the crucifixion of G-d's one
and only son, our L-rd, Jesus Christ. What use would He have of burnt
offerings? Well, ask yourself why G-d decided to continue the sacrifice
in the Temple in Heaven in the future? The saints of the early days
still went to the Temple regularly. They never went around stopping
people from entering the Temple just because of Christ's sacrifice. They
acknowledged the importance of the Holy Temple and gathered there
daily, for it is the house of prayer for all people, of all nations, for
all eternity.
"Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They
broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere
hearts," -Acts 2:46- |
It is with most sincere apologies that I suggest that you are very
wrong about the role that the Temple plays/played in the life of
Christians. Not being Catholic, you do not understand that the sacrifice
of the Mass is THE act of atonement now. It is the perpetuation of
Christ's sacrifice each and every time that Mass is celebrated. It is
the supreme offering of the Son to the Father. And by partaking through
the Eucharist, we have eternal life in us. Why would God be pleased with
the burnt offering of a sheep when He has His Son as an offering? Also,
the gospel speaks of how the curtain in the Temple was torn in two when
Christ died. The significance of this is that the Temple offerings were
no longer efficacious since the old testament and the new were
completed in the death and resurrection of Christ. The early Christians
still met in the Temple because it was their custom to do so. The were,
after all, still Jewish. If the Temple was so important in the life of
the early Christians as you suggest, then why wasn't there a call or
attempt by the early Christians to rebuild the Temple after its
destruction?
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Nov 8, '16, 4:18 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
It is with most sincere apologies that I
suggest that you are very wrong about the role that the Temple
plays/played in the life of Christians. Not being Catholic, you do not
understand that the sacrifice of the Mass is THE act of atonement now.
It is the perpetuation of Christ's sacrifice each and every time that
Mass is celebrated. It is the supreme offering of the Son to the Father.
And by partaking through the Eucharist, we have eternal life in us. Why
would God be pleased with the burnt offering of a sheep when He has His
Son as an offering? Also, the gospel speaks of how the curtain in the
Temple was torn in two when Christ died. The significance of this is
that the Temple offerings were no longer efficacious since the old
testament and the new were completed in the death and resurrection of
Christ. The early Christians still met in the Temple because it was
their custom to do so. The were, after all, still Jewish. If the Temple
was so important in the life of the early Christians as you suggest,
then why wasn't there a call or attempt by the early Christians to
rebuild the Temple after its destruction?
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Of course, as a non-Catholic, I might not fully understand
Catholic doctrines and beliefs. But I grew up surrounded by Catholic
friends and due to their invitation, I have attended Catholic masses
often for the past 5 years. I still visit Catholic churches and pray if I
have any chance. I think I have a relatively profound knowledge of
Catholic doctrines, even more than most of my Catholic friends. Now I
never said that G-d was pleased with animal offerings and I made it
pretty clear in previous posts that Christ's sacrifice was the final
sacrifice. If it was the saints' custom to meet in the Temple, shouldn't
also be our custom too? Don't we want to learn from their lives? Aren't
they supposed to be role models for us? Also, we always say that we
want to live like Christ and follow his footstep. But doesn't Jesus's
custom involve meeting in the Temple and offering sacrifices? Indeed,
the burnt offering no longer pleases G-d nor does it even atone our sins
anymore. But the purpose of the next Holy Temple will be a "memorial"
sort of thing. Even in heaven, the Bible states that there will be a
Temple standing in the heaven where everyone will continue to bring
burnt offerings and there will be this whole Melchizedek priesthood
thing.
Now, are you seriously insisting that you are against reconstruction of
G-d's Temple and instead, you'd rather leave some pagan religion's
mosque standing right in the heart of G-d's city, Jerusalem?
__________________
ב״ה
"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
-Isaiah 2:3-
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Nov 8, '16, 7:34 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7777
If it was the saints' custom to meet in
the Temple, shouldn't also be our custom too? Don't we want to learn
from their lives? Aren't they supposed to be role models for us?
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The Temple was destroyed in 70AD. The early Christians who met in
the Temple were still Jews and they did it because it was part of their
heritage and tradition. We do not hear of Christians in other parts of
the world traveling to worship in the Temple. Nor do we have writings
from the early church fathers speaking of the necessity or the tradition
of meeting in the Temple or of their desire to see the Temple rebuilt.
Basically, the Temple was not an important part of the lives of the
early Christians. You are giving far to much significance to it than it
deserves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7777
Now, are you seriously insisting that you
are against reconstruction of G-d's Temple and instead, you'd rather
leave some pagan religion's mosque standing right in the heart of G-d's
city, Jerusalem?
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As a Catholic who has access to the sacraments of the Church, I
see absolutely no reason or merit in a reconstruction of the Temple and
the resumption of burnt offerings. Honestly, the thought of a modern,
first-world nation resuming animal sacrifice is appalling to me. Also, I
would rather leave the Dome of the Rock standing than instigate the
third world war by destroying something that is significant for over 1
billion people in the world.
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Nov 8, '16, 7:49 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
The Temple was destroyed in 70AD. The
early Christians who met in the Temple were still Jews and they did it
because it was part of their heritage and tradition. We do not hear of
Christians in other parts of the world traveling to worship in the
Temple. Nor do we have writings from the early church fathers speaking
of the necessity or the tradition of meeting in the Temple or of their
desire to see the Temple rebuilt. Basically, the Temple was not an
important part of the lives of the early Christians. You are giving far
to much significance to it than it deserves.
As a Catholic who has access to the sacraments of the Church, I see
absolutely no reason or merit in a reconstruction of the Temple and the
resumption of burnt offerings. Honestly, the thought of a modern,
first-world nation resuming animal sacrifice is appalling to me. Also, I
would rather leave the Dome of the Rock standing than instigate the
third world war by destroying something that is significant for over 1
billion people in the world.
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I agree with you on the last part. Not so much the one before.
The Dome must be respected, but we ought not judge a millennial religion by our modern squeamishness about animals.
A priest I wholly trust once said that GOD instituted animal sacrifice
because His people would otherwise be tempted into animal worship, like
all their neighbors. In a world careening into nature worship once
again, it could be that animal sacrifices are needed more than ever.
The Holy Temple would not be built unless an unprecedented peace allowed
it to stand next to the Dome, or if due to war or natural catastrophe
the Dome were no longer standing.
ICXC NIKA
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Nov 8, '16, 7:57 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
In a world careening into nature worship once again, it could be that animal sacrifices are needed more than ever.
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You've got to be joking. Do you think that a resurrection of
organized animal sacrifice would move mankind forward? Perhaps the
descendants of the Aztecs could resume their human sacrifices with
convicted criminals. Who knows? It could be needed more than ever. 
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Nov 8, '16, 8:03 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
A priest I wholly trust once said that
GOD instituted animal sacrifice because His people would otherwise be
tempted into animal worship, like all their neighbors.
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And Moses allowed divorce because the Hebrews were a stiff-necked
people. Jesus, however, reasserted the intended permanency of marriage.
Christ said that His blood was the blood of the "everlasting covenant." I
seriously doubt that He would ascribe any merit to the sprinkled blood
of animal sacrifice.
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Nov 8, '16, 8:08 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
A priest I wholly trust once said that
GOD instituted animal sacrifice because His people would otherwise be
tempted into animal worship, like all their neighbors. In a world
careening into nature worship once again, it could be that animal
sacrifices are needed more than ever.
The Holy Temple would not be built unless an unprecedented peace allowed
it to stand next to the Dome, or if due to war or natural catastrophe
the Dome were no longer standing.
ICXC NIKA
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I 100% agree with you. Yes, the Dome should be respected but I'm
pretty sure that G-d is about to rebuild the Holy Temple very soon (I
mean like VERY SOON). It is also true that G-d instituted animal
sacrifice because or else, we would be tempted into animal worship, like
the Golden Calf Incident long ago in the time of Moses. I agree with
you that we need animal sacrifices more than ever as the world is truly
indeed turning to the bad side filled with idolatry worship. I'm pretty
sure G-d will somehow eradicate the Dome before the reconstruction of
the Holy Temple. Let us pray that G-d will hasten the reconstruction of
the Holy Temple in the heart of Jerusalem, the center of the world.
Blessings,
__________________
ב״ה
"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
-Isaiah 2:3-
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Nov 8, '16, 8:15 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
You've got to be joking. Do you think
that a resurrection of organized animal sacrifice would move mankind
forward? Perhaps the descendants of the Aztecs could resume their human
sacrifices with convicted criminals. Who knows? It could be needed more than ever. |
The organized animal sacrifice DID move the mankind forward in the
time of the Old Testament. G-d is the same today, yesterday, and
tomorrow. Therefore, I do believe that the resurrection of burnt
offerings will change the course of human history upside down, and it
will give positive impact even to the Christendom.
P.S. I don't even know why you are comparing some random pagan religion with the L-rd of Hosts because it's not even related.
__________________
ב״ה
"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of
the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the
word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
-Isaiah 2:3-
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Nov 8, '16, 8:20 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
You've got to be joking. Do you think
that a resurrection of organized animal sacrifice would move mankind
forward? Perhaps the descendants of the Aztecs could resume their human
sacrifices with convicted criminals. Who knows? It could be needed more than ever. |
Well no, killing of human beings is moving faster than the Central
Americans ever dreamed, at the same time that we are being taught to
worship animals and the earth once again.
ICXC NIKA
Nov 8, '16, 8:22 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
And Moses allowed divorce because the
Hebrews were a stiff-necked people. Jesus, however, reasserted the
intended permanency of marriage.
Christ said that His blood was the blood of the "everlasting covenant." I
seriously doubt that He would ascribe any merit to the sprinkled blood
of animal sacrifice.
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He would not. But Judaism doesn't currently hold to Him. And it is they who would rebuild the Temple.
ICXC NIKA
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Nov 8, '16, 8:30 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
If the Temple were to be rebuilt and if it was determined
that the burnt offerings should be resumed, are there any provision for
who would carry out such offerings? Is anyone able to trace their
descent to the Levites and Aaron still?
And I'd hardly call such burnt offerings pagan. They are part of our
faith, even if no longer applicable, necessary, or efficacious.
__________________
As for me, to be near God is my good, to make the Lord God my refuge. (Ps 73:28)
Last edited by Wesrock; Nov 8, '16 at 8:45 am.
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Nov 8, '16, 10:31 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Well no, killing of human beings is
moving faster than the Central Americans ever dreamed, at the same time
that we are being taught to worship animals and the earth once again.
ICXC NIKA
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Very small fringe groups who describe themselves as "pagan" are
hardly teaching us to worship animals and the earth. That is a very poor
reason to resume something as archaic as animal sacrifice.
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Nov 8, '16, 10:35 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7777
G-d is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
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And yet, as Christians, we believe that many laws of the Old
Testament are no longer necessary. Do you also advocate strict adherence
to the old laws or is it enough that the early Church decided them to
be unnecessary?
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Nov 8, '16, 11:09 am
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
And yet, as Christians, we believe that
many laws of the Old Testament are no longer necessary. Do you also
advocate strict adherence to the old laws or is it enough that the early
Church decided them to be unnecessary?
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Again, who are we Hallmark post-Christians to tell Judaism what not to do?
There are those who consider circumcision "archaic", after all.
ICXC NIKA
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Nov 8, '16, 12:17 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
Again, who are we Hallmark post-Christians to tell Judaism what not to do?
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I was replying to Jonathan7777, who said that he is a Christian
and is very aware of Catholic doctrine. I find it curious that as a
Christian he desires a return to an ancient, archaic form of worship
particular to a sect for whom the new covenant rules, laws and doctrines
do not apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEddie
There are those who consider circumcision "archaic", after all.
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Circumcision is not required by the Christian/Catholic faith.
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Nov 8, '16, 4:51 pm
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Re: Israeli Chief Rabbi (Ashkenazi): Rebuild Jewish Temple but Keep Muslim Shrines Too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_D
I was replying to Jonathan7777, who said
that he is a Christian and is very aware of Catholic doctrine. I find it
curious that as a Christian he desires a return to an ancient, archaic
form of worship particular to a sect for whom the new covenant rules,
laws and doctrines do not apply.
Circumcision is not required by the Christian/Catholic faith.
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No, but it is required for Jews and Muslims and just as I would be
irked if either group attempted to tell me what was required in my
faith I would expect they would be irked in return were I to tell them
what was required in theirs.
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