Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist

Dec 9, '16, 3:20 am

Athanasiy Regular Member   Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic

Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ian-propaganda

#2   Dec 9, '16, 8:42 am

1Lord1Faith Regular Member   Join Date: March 1, 2016 Posts: 1,531 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: "The Kremlin’s bet on marginal right-wing parties has paid off as they have moved into the mainstream. It has pumped out disinformation and propaganda both through its official media channels, such as the RT and Sputnik news networks, and through thousands of paid internet trolls." This part seems important.

#3   Dec 9, '16, 8:51 am

J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,846 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist I've suspected some here. When someone only posts about pro-Russia topics or Trump without ever talking about Catholic teaching or even Christianity in general, my alarm bells go off. To remain charitable I keep my suspicions to myself.

#4   Dec 9, '16, 10:37 am

Blood Angel   Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 434 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist That's like the pot calling the kettle black. The Economist is owned by the Rothschilds.

#5   Dec 9, '16, 10:54 am

MikeFr New Member   Join Date: June 20, 2016 Posts: 29 Religion: Protestant Evangelical

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Blood Angel That's like the pot calling the kettle black. The Economist is owned by the Rothschilds. Can you provide any evidence for your assertion? Thank You. Mike

#6   Dec 9, '16, 11:04 am

1Lord1Faith Regular Member   Join Date: March 1, 2016 Posts: 1,531 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by J_Peterson I've suspected some here. When someone only posts about pro-Russia topics or Trump without ever talking about Catholic teaching or even Christianity in general, my alarm bells go off. To remain charitable I keep my suspicions to myself. I agree with you. I would assume Catholic Answers is aware of that possibility.

#7   Dec 9, '16, 12:04 pm

Hoosier Daddy Forum Master   Join Date: August 13, 2013 Posts: 12,205 Religion: Still Catholic......

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist State of the art but by far second to the American media in terms of propoganda. __________________ --- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts! http://www.catholic-threads.com/

#8   Dec 9, '16, 12:16 pm

Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,719 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by J_Peterson I've suspected some here. When someone only posts about pro-Russia topics or Trump without ever talking about Catholic teaching or even Christianity in general, my alarm bells go off. To remain charitable I keep my suspicions to myself. I have thought the same thing at times. But it is mildly amusing to picture them with little beards and those Trotsky glasses sitting in some pub somewhere with "worker" caps on, same half-empty glass of something or other sitting there all day, holding their cigarettes backwards between their thumb and index finger, putting them down now and then to type some post on a laptop provided by Putin, in between the emails from the Kremlin telling them what to say.

#9   Dec 9, '16, 12:17 pm

Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,719 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy State of the art but by far second to the American media in terms of propoganda.

#10   Dec 10, '16, 4:51 am

Seamus L Senior Member   Join Date: November 22, 2007 Posts: 8,098 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist When we fall for this line of reasoning we play right into the hands of the likes of Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and others of similar mindsets.

#11   Dec 12, '16, 3:10 pm

ATraveller Regular Member   Join Date: December 7, 2016 Posts: 865 Religion: Protestant Christian

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist None of this would be happening if journalists and those in charge were responsible. The years (possibly decades) of smearing those who are against abortions, those who oppose to changing the definition of marriage, and practically anyone who holds a traditional view of social issues and other conservatives. Every time the predominantly liberal media takes a Bible verse out of context, do they seriously believe a practising Christian wouldn't know or look it up? Does anyone really want to tune in or read content that constantly misrepresent or ridicule them? Unfortunately, it does make a lot of Christians and conservatives vulnerable to fake news. I've been fooled before years ago. What I find sad is seeing the traditional news outlets whinging about fake news when they've been doing the same thing but producing it in lower quantities for years and sadder when sites like Vox complain. And if I remember correctly, they never made a big deal over it when sites like the Huffington Post or BuzzFeed peddled fake news. What's sad is they think more smearing of the ordinary Christian or conservative in the West will fix the problem. Frankly it's a genie the liberals or whatever label you like who run most of the media and work in can't put back into the bottle. Any real attempt to do real objective reporting on sensitive issues in the future will not convince many they've changed or worse, it will be perceived as an attempt to lure the victims of their smears back just to smear them again. Any attempt to get the other side's view will be seen as tokenism.

#12   Dec 12, '16, 4:26 pm

JW55 Regular Member   Join Date: August 24, 2008 Posts: 790 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy State of the art but by far second to the American media in terms of propoganda. Very true. It is no secret that Russia uses propaganda. What country doesn't? However, apparently it is a secret to many that American media uses it all the time, as well. We have the left in MSNBC and the neo-con right with Fox, with an assortment of in between. Everyone choses their own verbal poison. After all if you saw it on TV it is true, right? Our entertainment we zombify ourselves with on TV, radio, newspapers, etc has done a remarkable job tainting our moral codes be it on abortion, same sex marriage, etc. It has the ability to project everyone who doesn't agree with their view as a bigot or racist or any number of other slurs intended to shame the viewer into accepting their viewpoint. We need to wake up and realize we are not immune to propaganda in this country. It is rampant. If you don't wake up, you can join the lemmings over the cliff. You can't believe everything you read and view. Traffic goes both ways.

#13   Dec 12, '16, 4:38 pm

Hoosier Daddy Forum Master   Join Date: August 13, 2013 Posts: 12,205 Religion: Still Catholic......

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JW55 Very true. It is no secret that Russia uses propaganda. What country doesn't? However, apparently it is a secret to many that American media uses it all the time, as well. We have the left in MSNBC and the neo-con right with Fox, with an assortment of in between. Everyone choses their own verbal poison. After all if you saw it on TV it is true, right? Our entertainment we zombify ourselves with on TV, radio, newspapers, etc has done a remarkable job tainting our moral codes be it on abortion, same sex marriage, etc. It has the ability to project everyone who doesn't agree with their view as a bigot or racist or any number of other slurs intended to shame the viewer into accepting their viewpoint. We need to wake up and realize we are not immune to propaganda in this country. It is rampant. If you don't wake up, you can join the lemmings over the cliff. You can't believe everything you read and view. Traffic goes both ways. Absolutely. I can't believe the left that is crying foul over some misinformation doesn't see that it will comeback to bite them. It is funny though seeing every liberal sounding like the conservatives have been sounding for years. "A biased media with an agenda taints its stories and employs social engineering on a public it wishes to influence disguising it as news!" The audacity! __________________ --- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts! http://www.catholic-threads.com/

#14   Dec 12, '16, 5:00 pm

Zzyzx Road Regular Member   Join Date: October 30, 2013 Posts: 825 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy Absolutely. I can't believe the left that is crying foul over some misinformation doesn't see that it will comeback to bite them. It is funny though seeing every liberal sounding like the conservatives have been sounding for years. "A biased media with an agenda taints its stories and employs social engineering on a public it wishes to influence disguising it as news!" The audacity! Look at the motives of those who are screaming and stamping their feet about the Russian propaganda affecting the election. They're the same people who wanted to go to war in Syria a few years back when Assad allegedly used chemical weapons: a claim that turned out to be faked. Having remembered the fake intelligence regarding WMD's in Iraq a decade before, the American people said no, we are not falling for that again, we don't want to go to war there. That reaction shocked Obama and his henchmen in Congress, so they had to throttle back their plans for escalation in Syria. Now the neocon saber rattlers are back again and they have the mainstream media on their side. Clinton was going to rubberstamp what they wanted, but she lost the election. I mostly do not trust Trump in general, but I definitely do not want a war and I'd much rather Trump talked with Putin than let the saber rattling dominate the environment. If that makes me a Russian lover in the eyes of the neocons, I do not care. Better that than a war that could easily go off the rails and become WW3. __________________ For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. --John 3:17

#15   Dec 12, '16, 5:10 pm

JW55 Regular Member   Join Date: August 24, 2008 Posts: 790 Religion: Catholic

Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr Can you provide any evidence for your assertion? Thank You. Mike Your inquiry was in reference to another poster, not mine, but: I was not familiar with the Economist or its ownership, positions or anything about it, However out of curiosity I decided to look. Here is a Wikipedia link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ec...t#cite_note-12, you can read it for yourself as to their position both socially and economically. it also identifies ownership interests if you want to pursue that. Here is a paragraph taken from the narrative on that page. The Economist takes an editorial stance of classical and economic liberalism which is supportive of free trade, globalisation, free immigration and cultural liberalism (such as supporting legal recognition for same-sex marriage or drug liberalization). The publication has described itself as "a product of the Caledonian liberalism of Adam Smith and David Hume."[18] It targets highly educated readers and claims an audience containing many influential executives and policy-makers.[19] The publication's CEO described this recent global change, which was first noticed in the 1990s and accelerated in the beginning of the 21st century, as a "new age of Mass Intelligence."[20][21] Make your own decisions if you want to accept their viewpoint. I'm not going to be a follower of line of thought.      Dec 12, '16, 5:47 pm MikeFr New Member   Join Date: June 20, 2016 Posts: 29 Religion: Protestant Evangelical Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist I'm a long time subscriber to The Economist. While I certainly don't agree with everything they say, they are very good at reporting on the entire world economy each week. And when they use the word "Liberal" they are not referring to the colloquial version of today but rather the classical version, i.e., freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and also sometimes used to describe countries that have democratic governments and hold free elections. Also, even though they have that bias (which they freely acknowledge), they don't hew to any party line, criticizing and praising both progressive and conservative points of view. When they criticized Barack Obama for something shortly after his election, many Americans couldn't believe that a media outlet would do that to their "messiah". They are a completely secular publication and so they don't comment at all on moral issues. That is where I differ with them, especially when they don't factor those into their analysis. Blessings, Mike   #17   Dec 12, '16, 6:04 pm JW55 Regular Member   Join Date: August 24, 2008 Posts: 790 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr I'm a long time subscriber to The Economist. While I certainly don't agree with everything they say, they are very good at reporting on the entire world economy each week. And when they use the word "Liberal" they are not referring to the colloquial version of today but rather the classical version, i.e., freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and also sometimes used to describe countries that have democratic governments and hold free elections. Also, even though they have that bias (which they freely acknowledge), they don't hew to any party line, criticizing and praising both progressive and conservative points of view. When they criticized Barack Obama for something shortly after his election, many Americans couldn't believe that a media outlet would do that to their "messiah". They are a completely secular publication and so they don't comment at all on moral issues. That is where I differ with them, especially when they don't factor those into their analysis. Blessings, Mike Mike- Do you not view same-sex marriage as a "moral" issue? As a Catholic, I certainly do.   #18   Dec 12, '16, 7:35 pm ManOnFire Regular Member   Join Date: January 16, 2010 Posts: 2,339 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Yes, but we have CNpravdaN, CBpravdaS, NBpravdaC, ABpravdaC, and Saturday Night Pravda Live to mislead our people from the truth, like they did with this election cycle, so there's that. __________________ Before making up your mind, consider the true motivations of the source.   #19   Dec 12, '16, 8:05 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr Can you provide any evidence for your assertion? Thank You. Mike Quote: Lynn Forester de Rothschild, Lady de Rothschild (born Lynn Forester; July 2, 1954) is an American-British businesswoman who is the chief executive officer of E.L. Rothschild, a holding company she owns with her third husband, Sir Evelyn Robert de Rothschild, a member of the Rothschild family.[1] The company manages investments in The Economist Group, owner of The Economist magazine, Congressional Quarterly and the Economist Intelligence Unit, E.L. Rothschild LP, a leading independent wealth management firm in the United States, as well as real estate, agricultural and food interests.[2] She publicly supports many politicians including Hillary Clinton.[3] She also rallies for a political movement called Inclusive Capitalism. She led the Conference of Inclusive Capitalism in London in 2014[4] and 2015 and founded the Coalition for Inclusive Capitalism . . . Rothschild is actively involved in policy and social issues, including micro-finance and women's rights. In 2006, she was appointed as a member of the UN Advisors Group on Inclusive Financial Services.[citation needed] She serves as Chairman of the Board for the American Patrons of the Tate Gallery, FAI, and the International Advisory Board of Columbia University School of Law.[9] In addition, she serves as a Trustee of the ERANDA Foundation (a Rothschild family foundation), the Outward Bound Trust, the Alfred Herrhausen Society of International Dialogue of Deutsche Bank and the Global Commercial Microfinance Consortium Advisory Board of Deutsche Bank.[9] She also sits on the board of the McCain Institute.[15] She is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (USA), Chatham House (UK), the Institute for Strategic Studies (UK), the International Advisory Council of Asia House (UK), and the Foreign Policy Association (USA).[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_F...child#Politics I saw Lady de Rothschild on CNN Tonight on July 26, 2016 being interviewed by Don Lemon and expressing her support for Hillary Clinton: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1607/26/cnnt.01.html __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #20   Dec 12, '16, 8:45 pm Tomdstone Banned   Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 11,614 Religion: other Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JW55 I was not familiar with the Economist or its ownership, positions or anything about it, As far as Russia is concerned, the Economist is certainly slanted against the present government of Russia.   #21   Dec 12, '16, 11:09 pm Hoosier Daddy Forum Master   Join Date: August 13, 2013 Posts: 12,205 Religion: Still Catholic...... Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr I'm a long time subscriber to The Economist. While I certainly don't agree with everything they say, they are very good at reporting on the entire world economy each week. And when they use the word "Liberal" they are not referring to the colloquial version of today but rather the classical version, i.e., freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and also sometimes used to describe countries that have democratic governments and hold free elections. Also, even though they have that bias (which they freely acknowledge), they don't hew to any party line, criticizing and praising both progressive and conservative points of view. When they criticized Barack Obama for something shortly after his election, many Americans couldn't believe that a media outlet would do that to their "messiah". They are a completely secular publication and so they don't comment at all on moral issues. That is where I differ with them, especially when they don't factor those into their analysis. Blessings, Mike If you can't identify and dismiss or accept the agenda it's hard to make the argument that it's fair and balanced. I prefer my propoganda out in the open so I can factor it in. Defending the economist as evenhanded only means they have tricked you. __________________ --- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts! http://www.catholic-threads.com/   #22   Dec 12, '16, 11:15 pm Hoosier Daddy Forum Master   Join Date: August 13, 2013 Posts: 12,205 Religion: Still Catholic...... Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Journalism has gone away from the notion of fact finding. They are now the engineers of society. A society that cannot define the fact of male or female.... When we extend them the unrealistic credibility of unbiased reporting we expect them to deny thier humanness. When they say "trust me" they are the serpent. Russian, American, British, to Al Jazeera. It's social engineering and propoganda. I wish to believe it used to be different. But I'm starting to think it never was. __________________ --- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts! http://www.catholic-threads.com/   #23   Dec 13, '16, 12:24 pm MikeFr New Member   Join Date: June 20, 2016 Posts: 29 Religion: Protestant Evangelical Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist They are a completely secular publication and so they don't comment at all on moral issues. That is where I differ with them, especially when they don't factor those into their analysis. Blessings, Mike Mike- Do you not view same-sex marriage as a "moral" issue? As a Catholic, I certainly do. Of course I do. I also view abortion as evil. That is why I don't vote for Democrats. I know there are pro-life democrats - but at the national level the party clearly supports abortion (and same sex marriage). That is why I said what I did above. I would also say there many Roman Catholics who have pro choice stands on abortion. Even those who are very active in their parish. I know that this is not accepted by the Church - but most Catholics I've met & discussed politics with are pro-choice. I recognize that I certainly haven't met all Catholics and that there must be many who oppose abortion. But that is one of the reasons I am hesitant about converting - so many are pro-choice that I have met. As for being "tricked" by the Economist magazine, I fully recognize their bias, including their saying that the most effective way to reduce abortions is by more contraception. I get that. All media has bias. Conservatives (of which I am one) need to recognize that Fox News, Breitbart, the National Review and other conservative news media have bias as well. And the conservative "worship" of Donald Trump as the "messiah" is also biased. It is very pronounced in Fundamental Protestant churches including my own. So yes - I certainly view same sex marriage and abortion rights as morally wrong. That is why I said concerning the Economist that I differ from them in the area of moral issues. Mike   #24   Dec 13, '16, 4:57 pm JW55 Regular Member   Join Date: August 24, 2008 Posts: 790 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr They are a completely secular publication and so they don't comment at all on moral issues. That is where I differ with them, especially when they don't factor those into their analysis. Blessings, Mike Mike- Do you not view same-sex marriage as a "moral" issue? As a Catholic, I certainly do. Of course I do. I also view abortion as evil. That is why I don't vote for Democrats. I know there are pro-life democrats - but at the national level the party clearly supports abortion (and same sex marriage). That is why I said what I did above. I would also say there many Roman Catholics who have pro choice stands on abortion. Even those who are very active in their parish. I know that this is not accepted by the Church - but most Catholics I've met & discussed politics with are pro-choice. I recognize that I certainly haven't met all Catholics and that there must be many who oppose abortion. But that is one of the reasons I am hesitant about converting - so many are pro-choice that I have met. As for being "tricked" by the Economist magazine, I fully recognize their bias, including their saying that the most effective way to reduce abortions is by more contraception. I get that. All media has bias. Conservatives (of which I am one) need to recognize that Fox News, Breitbart, the National Review and other conservative news media have bias as well. And the conservative "worship" of Donald Trump as the "messiah" is also biased. It is very pronounced in Fundamental Protestant churches including my own. So yes - I certainly view same sex marriage and abortion rights as morally wrong. That is why I said concerning the Economist that I differ from them in the area of moral issues. Mike In reference to your discussion about Catholics who are pro choice. I would say that if they are truly pro choice they are not expressing the teachings of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, as it is with many religions, because someone professes to be a "Catholic" doesn't mean they practice the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a cafeteria where we get to choose what we want and reject the rest. if you in anyway are considering converting to Catholicism please do not be deterred by those who do not adhere to the Church's teachings. The teachings of the Church are definitely anti-abortion and fully Pro-life. A lot of times people who say they are Catholics may have been born into the church but haven't been to Mass in years.   #25   Dec 13, '16, 4:59 pm MikeFr New Member   Join Date: June 20, 2016 Posts: 29 Religion: Protestant Evangelical Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist I agree with you. I realize there are many Catholics who stand behind the Churches' teachings. I didn't intend to criticize the entire Church.   #26   Dec 13, '16, 5:30 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist I see along with the naughty old Russians that other popular black hat of choice the naughty old ZIonists have now started popping up on the thread. One imagines a giant room somewhere filled with people stroking white cats and pictures of Russia and Israel and people going, 'Bwah-ha-ha, soon all our enemies will be crushed'.   #27   Dec 15, '16, 11:25 am Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by ManOnFire Yes, but we have CNpravdaN, CBpravdaS, NBpravdaC, ABpravdaC, and Saturday Night Pravda Live to mislead our people from the truth, like they did with this election cycle, so there's that. While you are making a rhetorical point, comparing Soviet Pravda a complete mouthpiece of the USSR - a paper which even supported Hitler at one point (at a time Hitler agreed to give Russia half of Poland and all of Finland) - to your mainstream channels is insulting to the millions of victims of Communism and demeans their holy memory and on the other hand is totally and factually untrue. And this from someone who has lots of sympathy for the conservatives in the US who want to get rid of abortion, protect marriage and so on, and so dislikes the silliness that CNN et all broadcast.   #28   Dec 15, '16, 12:14 pm RCinMT Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 781 Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by J_Peterson I've suspected some here. When someone only posts about pro-Russia topics or Trump without ever talking about Catholic teaching or even Christianity in general, my alarm bells go off. To remain charitable I keep my suspicions to myself. From the other side, I've suspected several plants of George Soros style social activism here. However, they do talk about Christ and the Church....but in warped terms that try to deceive.   #29   Dec 15, '16, 12:16 pm RCinMT Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 781 Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir While you are making a rhetorical point, comparing Soviet Pravda a complete mouthpiece of the USSR - a paper which even supported Hitler at one point (at a time Hitler agreed to give Russia half of Poland and all of Finland) - to your mainstream channels is insulting to the millions of victims of Communism and demeans their holy memory and on the other hand is totally and factually untrue. And this from someone who has lots of sympathy for the conservatives in the US who want to get rid of abortion, protect marriage and so on, and so dislikes the silliness that CNN et all broadcast. I think there's some evidence that, indeed, CNN is a tool of the Democratic National Committee. I can turn on the news coverage every night and see several outlets ignoring important stories or promoting only one view point.   #30   Dec 15, '16, 1:26 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir While you are making a rhetorical point, comparing Soviet Pravda a complete mouthpiece of the USSR - a paper which even supported Hitler at one point (at a time Hitler agreed to give Russia half of Poland and all of Finland) - to your mainstream channels is insulting to the millions of victims of Communism and demeans their holy memory and on the other hand is totally and factually untrue. And this from someone who has lots of sympathy for the conservatives in the US who want to get rid of abortion, protect marriage and so on, and so dislikes the silliness that CNN et all broadcast. Quite a few media outlets supported Hitler prior to WW2, some right-wing, some centrist and some left-wing. Not surprisingly they and many individuals who supported Adolf and co. swept that under the carpet very quickly indeed as conditions changed. Even Winston Churchill spoke glowingly of his social programmes and his rebuilding of Germany a few years prior to the war.      Dec 15, '16, 2:02 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by RCinMT I think there's some evidence that, indeed, CNN is a tool of the Democratic National Committee. I can turn on the news coverage every night and see several outlets ignoring important stories or promoting only one view point. Please re-read what I said. Even if CNN is biased pro-Clinton, as is pretty obvious, this does not make them on par with Soviet Pravda in any reasonably comparable way. This type of rhetoric not only makes your argument look ridiculous because of a drama queen/cry wolf approach but also is a reason why the left is not popular any more, they took political correctness to extremes and started labeling right wing people as KKK and the like. Unless CNN is supporting a regime which murdered tens if hundreds of millions of people, it's pointless to compare then to Pravda, you know. As said, it demeans real victims of Communism.   #32   Dec 15, '16, 2:10 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian Quite a few media outlets supported Hitler prior to WW2, some right-wing, some centrist and some left-wing. Not surprisingly they and many individuals who supported Adolf and co. swept that under the carpet very quickly indeed as conditions changed. Even Winston Churchill spoke glowingly of his social programmes and his rebuilding of Germany a few years prior to the war. Pravda was a paper which first hated Hitler, then loved him, then took a 180 degree turn all for political gain in a most blatant way. This is merely one very blatant example. They later even removed the pages where NSDAP was hailed as glorious and so on after Hitler turned on the Soviets. To say that some measure of support occurred in some other papers of Hitler before his plans were known and before he started WW2 is to downplay this tremendously and makes one wonder why you'd do that. Why defend the indefensible? Note that the Soviet-Nazi alliance was not the only thing Pravda spun as positive. Furthermore, many Communist movements/papers were supportive of Hitler because of orders from Moscow. Last edited by Tenofovir; Dec 15, '16 at 2:26 pm.   #33   Dec 15, '16, 2:17 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir Pravda was a paper which first hated Hitler, then loved him, then took a 180 degree turn all for political gain in a most blatant way. This is merely one very blatant example. They later even removed the pages where NSDAP was hailed as glorious and so on after Hitler turned on the Soviets. To say that some measure of support occurred in some other papers of Hitler before his plans were known and before he started WW2 is to downplay this tremendously and makes one wonder why you'd do that. Why defend the indefensible? It was merely pointed out for comparison, other news outlets also spoke just as glowingly about him as did Pravda and then did the same trick of trying to erase that or silence people who pointed it out by lambasting them or ridiculing them. That was my sole motivation in making that comparison. If you have something to say concerning my posts please state it openly and candidly and not via veiled accusations.   #34   Dec 15, '16, 2:20 pm RCinMT Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2016 Posts: 781 Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian Quite a few media outlets supported Hitler prior to WW2, some right-wing, some centrist and some left-wing. Not surprisingly they and many individuals who supported Adolf and co. swept that under the carpet very quickly indeed as conditions changed. Even Winston Churchill spoke glowingly of his social programmes and his rebuilding of Germany a few years prior to the war. Churchill never supported Hitler. He marveled at the accomplishments of the German people under Hitler but he did not support Hitler. No, that's patently false.   #35   Dec 15, '16, 2:27 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by RCinMT Churchill never supported Hitler. He marveled at the accomplishments of the German people under Hitler but he did not support Hitler. No, that's patently false. Supported is perhaps somewhat strong but I would imagine had Hitler stopped with the union of Austria and Germany and reclaiming some ceded territory it is likely Churchill and the other western leaders would have rubbed along with him. Grumbling all the way no doubt, but they would have managed somehow. Opinion on Churchill in my own nation is rather different than in the US or Britain, many there see him as just another imperialist conqueror who was not afraid of issuing threats to use methods which would have killed thousands of civilians there and he is seen in a rather less positive light in Ireland than Britain as a result. I view him as been morally ambiguous like all such major figures of his ilk, however the degree to which they are morally ambiguous varies drastically and Churchill is certainly nearer to the positive end of the spectrum of morality than Hitler or any of the other WW2 dictators. There are some in their own localized fashion I would judge as actually more barbaric than Hitler but who fortunately lacked the capacity to enact evils of the magnitude he did, although some of them working with the Third Reich did quite enough damage as it was.   #36   Dec 15, '16, 2:30 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian It was merely pointed out for comparison, other news outlets also spoke just as glowingly about him as did Pravda and then did the same trick of trying to erase that or silence people who pointed it out by lambasting them or ridiculing them. That was my sole motivation in making that comparison. As said they did not, not after he already started the war. Non Soviet supported/Communist papers did not, not in the mainstream. In fact the left was more pro-Hitler and the mainstream was never as pro-Hitler as you suggest. The point I was making was not specifically about Hitler but how contrasting the propaganda Pravda was putting out was, how blatant. For years the NSDAP was portrayed as evil, and then just to get Finland and a chunk of Poland Soviet Russians made Hitler and the Nazis into a good alternative ideology to Communism. Quote: If you have something to say concerning my posts please state it openly and candidly and not via veiled accusations. I asked a question why you drew such parallels. Maybe you're just not familiar with the evils of the Soviet Union and their official mouthpiece. I can understand that.   #37   Dec 15, '16, 2:40 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir As said they did not, not after he already started the war. Non Soviet supported/Communist papers did not, not in the mainstream. In fact the left was more pro-Hitler and the mainstream was never as pro-Hitler as you suggest. I asked a question why you drew such parallels. Maybe you're just not familiar with the evils of the Soviet Union and their official mouthpiece. I can understand that. My grandfather-in-law was a Colonel in the Soviet military. His wife was a Captain in the same military. My brother-in-law served in the Russian military for some years and my mother-in-law is an ardent communist of Russian and Ukrainian heritage. Does that fully answer your question as to how familiar I am with the Soviet Union. I lived in Russia myself for some time at one point, I regard the Soviet Union as not any more 'evil' than the USA. However I am well aware we are supposed to think it was to suit the narrative of 'goodies' versus 'baddies' that is foisted upon in a simplistic manner.   #38   Dec 15, '16, 2:50 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian My grandfather-in-law was a Colonel in the Soviet military. His wife was a Captain in the same military. My brother-in-law served in the Russian military for some years and my mother-in-law is an ardent communist of Russian and Ukrainian heritage. Does that fully answer your question as to how familiar I am with the Soviet Union. I lived in Russia myself for some time at one point, I regard the Soviet Union as not any more 'evil' than the USA. However I am well aware we are supposed to think it was to suit the narrative of 'goodies' versus 'baddies' that is foisted upon in a simplistic manner. Well I would say you are terribly mistaken. The Soviet Union was responsible for oppression of millions, wars of aggression and murder of millions of people, their own and others. They deployed nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe and some of their plans included the sacrifice of millions of East Germans and Poles in an attack and retaliatory nuclear strike by the West. Sadly many people were brainwashed or benefited from being part of the Soviet apparatus. Add in the intellectual property theft by Soviet Russia from America and promotion of Marxism in the US, well I dunno, but call me not pro-Soviet. As someone who lived under Soviet oppression and whose relatives did not belong to Soviet aligned parties nor were functionaries I would have to say those were not happy times, not as happy as for colonels in the Soviet military-- once Stalin's purges ended of course. I would say that America, while not being perfect (nobody is), was a far, far better alternative.   #39   Dec 15, '16, 2:56 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir Well I would say you are terribly mistaken. The Soviet Union was responsible for oppression of millions, wars of aggression and murder of millions of people, their own and others. They deployed nuclear weapons in Eastern Europe and some of their plans included the sacrifice of millions of East Germans and Poles in an attack and retaliatory nuclear strike by the West. Sadly many people were brainwashed or benefited from being part of the Soviet apparatus. Add in the intellectual property theft by Soviet Russia from America and promotion of Marxism in the US, well I dunno, but call me not pro-Soviet. As someone who lived under Soviet oppression and whose relatives did not belong to Soviet aligned parties nor were functionaries I would have to say those were not happy times, not as happy as for colonels in the Soviet military-- once Stalin's purges ended of course. I would say that America, while not being perfect (nobody is), was a far, far better alternative. My grandfather-in-law joined the Russian military after serving as a partisan which he did due to having witnessed the results of the Nazis invading the area of Russia he lived in which was on the border of Russia and the Ukraine. That invasion cost him the majority of his family, I would say therefore he was due any happiness he attained later in life. He was a quiet and modest man who was stubborn about what he believed but never rude and always tolerant of another point of view if explained calmly to him. Any plans the west had with regards to the nuclear warfare also inevitably called for the potential sacrifice of millions if you did not support the govt who ruled you then inevitably your likely to have felt oppressed, just as my father and grandfather in Ireland would have felt the same way with regards to the British. Imperialism tends to breed such situations.   #40   Dec 15, '16, 2:57 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist While the Russians have decades of experience, from Tsarist, through Soviet times and beyond, in propaganda, I don't think they contributed in any significant sense to Trump's election. Part of the Russian propaganda lies in it trying to portray itself as better than what it is.   #41   Dec 15, '16, 3:03 pm Tenofovir Regular Member   Join Date: April 27, 2010 Posts: 2,949 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian My grandfather-in-law joined the Russian military after serving as a partisan which he did due to having witnessed the results of the Nazis invading the area of Russia he lived in which was on the border of Russia and the Ukraine. That invasion cost him the majority of his family, I would say therefore he was due any happiness he attained later in life. He was a quiet and modest man who was stubborn about what he believed but never rude and always tolerant of another point of view if explained calmly to him. But the Soviets were allied with Hitler prior to Germany's invasion of Russia, which arguably was pre-emptive as Stalin was massing offensive troops on the German-Soviet border. Quote: Any plans the west had with regards to the nuclear warfare also inevitably called for the potential sacrifice of millions if you did not support the govt who ruled you then inevitably your likely to have felt oppressed, just as my father and grandfather in Ireland would have felt the same way with regards to the British. Imperialism tends to breed such situations. Soviet offensive plans my friend and plans no free citizen of any Eastern Bloc country would agree, we did not want Communism or to spread it to Europe. Soviet union even lied to their vassals in earlier denying they deployed ICBMs to Eastern Europe. Yup, "felt" oppressed, because being in a totalitarian state, where the Church was attacked and infiltrated by Soviet spies and you had virtually no freedoms at all, was just feeling. The evils Nazi Germany perpetrated on Russia do not justify Soviet Russian evils perpetrayed on their own people, nor those of their neighbours whom they attacked and occupied mercilessly, especially as your in laws were allied with Hitler for several years. The British oppression of Ireland can't be compared to the show trials, executions and murders and Siberia send offs of tens of thousands of people who in some way opposed or were unlucky enough to be bourgeois or be relatives of pre-war soldiers or intelligentsia. It's a pity you think this way. And it's sad that while you support this ideology because your loved ones were Communists, you disregard people who were not part of that establishment and who could not choose otherwise. Anyway, you're welcome to your inaccurate and biased opinion, it's just not correct.   #42   Dec 15, '16, 3:09 pm M-Dent Regular Member   Join Date: January 2, 2006 Posts: 3,645 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir While the Russians have decades of experience, from Tsarist, through Soviet times and beyond, in propaganda, I don't think they contributed in any significant sense to Trump's election. Part of the Russian propaganda lies in it trying to portray itself as better than what it is. I am convinced the Kremlin had no impact. Even if they were behind some of these intrusions. It seems many in the media, celebrities and pundits are still floundering as to explain how this election happened - it may be as simple as a large portion of Americans; 1. Want to test an outsider that views things from a business perspective. 2. Burned out on political correctness and social tensions. Plus, many of those mentioned above hold their opinions in too high of value. A large majority don't care if Lady Gaga or Bruce Springsteen are stumping for their worldview. __________________ Michael --- Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Pope John Paul II   #43   Dec 15, '16, 3:16 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist [quote]The British oppression of Ireland can't be compared to the show trials, executions and murders and Siberia send offs of tens of thousands of people who in some way opposed or were unlucky enough to be bourgeois or be relatives of pre-war soldiers or intelligentsia./QUOTE] Ah the game of MOPEry, a game I am familiar with in Ireland, a game played all to well there and for far too long.   #44   Dec 17, '16, 3:04 pm Paganus Regular Member   Join Date: October 12, 2006 Posts: 630 Religion: Rigid Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Tenofovir The evils Nazi Germany perpetrated on Russia do not justify Soviet Russian evils perpetrayed on their own people, nor those of their neighbours whom they attacked and occupied mercilessly, especially as your in laws were allied with Hitler for several years. Somebody ought to get rid of them both. I can't believe we're just sitting on our hands while Europe is divided between National Socialism and International Socialism.   #45   Dec 18, '16, 10:30 am JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,526 Religion: Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by Paganus Somebody ought to get rid of them both. I can't believe we're just sitting on our hands while Europe is divided between National Socialism and International Socialism. Nice use of dry humour Feb 14, '17, 1:05 am Athanasiy Regular Member   Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Rules out the window: the Trump and Putin era. More uncertainty? More disruption? https://hromadskeradio.org/programs/...ore-disruption When the shooting gets close, Gleb, in eastern Ukraine, hides in a room with no windows. https://www.facebook.com/camanpour/v...0/?pnref=story Serhii Plokhii, one of the most prominent historians working on Ukrainian and Post Soviet history today, teaches in the Ukrainian Studies department at Harvard. Over the last decade and a half he has emerged as one of the premiere explainers of Ukrainian History to Anglophone readers, for which he has been showered with accolades and awards. http://odessareview.com/dialogue-his...erhii-plokhii/   #47   Feb 14, '17, 1:28 am Saints Alive Regular Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: September 10, 2012 Posts: 1,240 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Quote: Originally Posted by MikeFr Can you provide any evidence for your assertion? Thank You. Mike The Wikipedia article says it's owned by four families iirc. One of which is the Rothschild.   #48   Feb 16, '17, 12:35 pm Athanasiy Regular Member   Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist Fake News, Fake Ukrainians: How a Group of Russians Tilted a Dutch Vote By ANDREW HIGGINS FEB. 16, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/w...=fb-share&_r=0   #49   Feb 23, '17, 4:55 am Athanasiy Regular Member   Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic Re: Russian propaganda is state-of-the-art again. The Economist ''Russian Defense Ministry Creates Propaganda Force'' (The Moscow Times) https://themoscowtimes.com/news/russ...da-force-57247