Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Seems like historical iconoclasm. How many historical monuments do we
destroy? How about Washington, Madison, Jackson? Do we destroy evidence
of Napoleon, Attila, and others? Isis does the same thing with
historical monuments.
May 24, '17, 8:54 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
I tend to think the appropriate thing to do is put these monuments in a
museum or somewhere private where history buffs, etc. can appreciate
them for what they are (art, a commemoration of a historical figure or
historical era, etc.), and where they don't become public "symbols" of
anything, nor are they supported on the public dime.
In a hundred years, cooler heads will prevail and the monument will
still be around to appreciate, rather than destroyed a la ISIS.
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May 24, '17, 9:32 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
I thought the national fabric was an
ideology of government for the people and by the people. If so the
Confederates were the ones fighting for that and the Union fighting
against it. The only reason to root for the Union side is if you value
an all powerful centralized government. That does seem to be the popular
choice these day. But then let's get rid of all the mythology
surrounding the birth of the US since it is the same as the Confederate
cause.
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I think you misunderstood what I mean. Lost Cause is a historical
interpretation put forth by post-bellum historians that tries to paint
the antebellum South and the buildup for war in a certain way. ( http://civil-war-journeys.org/the_lost_cause.htm
) The Confederate government was fighting for a government for the
people and by the people... Are you honestly suggesting that? While its
constitution expressly and explicitly wrote into it clauses that dehumanized large swaths of its population? Let's see what Confederate leaders and politicians have to say about why the war was fought.
Regarding the Confederate government: "Its foundations are laid, its
cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to
the white man; that slavery . . . is his natural and normal condition."
Alexander Stephens - Augusta, Georgia, Daily Constitutionalist, March
30, 1861.
The [North Carolina Standard, in North Carolina Standard, January 17, 1865 noted "it is abolition doctrine . . . the very doctrine which the war was commenced to put down."
"I say, then, that viewed from that standpoint, there is but one single subject of complaint
which Virginia has to make against the government under which we live; a
complaint made by the whole South, and that is on the subject of
African slavery" John B. Baldwin, Augusta County delegate to the
Virginia Secession Convention, March 21, 1861
"Sir, the great question which is now uprooting this Government to its foundation---the great question which underlies all our deliberations here, is the question of African slavery" Thomas F. Goode, Mecklenburg County, Virginia, March 28, 1861, Virginia Secession Convention, vol. II, p. 518
The Lost Cause mythology was developed to try and spin the causes of the
war into something patriotic, philosophic, geographic, and economic
because the CORNERSTONE of the Confederacy was steeped in hypocrisy and
inconsistency between the ideas of natural rights and freedoms, and
chattel slavery. I don't have much sympathy for the "they fought the war
to preserve the state's rights to deny basic human rights and dignity
to an entire class of people."
The Confederacy was, and is, nothing that should be memorialized. As I
said, if the memorial was to Mr. Ryan for his service bringing succor to
soldiers during the war, I'd have no problem with it. This memorial is
clearly designed to celebrate and honor the idea of the Confederacy.
Steeped in the Lost Cause ideology that ran through the era it was
erected.
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May 24, '17, 10:27 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Martin
There are many reasons why people joined
the Confederacy, and slavery is just one. The prominent Confederate
generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, for example, did not join
the Confederacy to protect slavery; they joined to defend their home
state. Their motivations were quite common.
Slavery also existed in the North during the Civil War and ending it was
not a goal of the federal government. It was not until ending it became
useful to rally support and cause a disruption in the Confederate
economy that President Lincoln gave his famous Emancipation Proclamation
(which did not apply to the Union states). Lincoln described his
thought process as follows:
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Hello Bill,
in your opinion, what were the main reasons for the beginning of the civil war?
I am not American although I have heard different thoughts about this topic.
Regards.
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May 25, '17, 2:50 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
I thought the national fabric was an
ideology of government for the people and by the people. If so the
Confederates were the ones fighting for that and the Union fighting
against it. The only reason to root for the Union side is if you value
an all powerful centralized government.
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You imagine yourself the proud slavemaster fighting for his
rights. Your perspective might be rather different if you were the
slave, or the laborer forced to compete with slave labor.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/...;view=fulltext
Quote:
John McMahon of Harmbrook, Pennsylvania telegraphed President Lincoln Aug. 6. 1864:
"Equal Rights & Justice to all white men in the United States
forever. White men is in class number one & black men is in class
number two & must be governed by white men forever.''
Lincoln instructed his secretary John Nicolay to reply:
"The President has received yours of yesterday, and is kindly paying
attention to it. As it is my business to assist him whenever I can, I
will thank you to inform me, for his use, whether you are either a white
man or black one, because in either case, you can not be regarded as an
entirely impartial judge. It may be that you belong to a third or
fourth class of yellow or red men, in which case the impartiality of
your judgment would be more apparent."
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May 25, '17, 5:38 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Martin
There are many reasons why people joined
the Confederacy, and slavery is just one. The prominent Confederate
generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, for example, did not join
the Confederacy to protect slavery; they joined to defend their home
state. Their motivations were quite common.
Slavery also existed in the North during the Civil War and ending it was
not a goal of the federal government. It was not until ending it became
useful to rally support and cause a disruption in the Confederate
economy that President Lincoln gave his famous Emancipation Proclamation
(which did not apply to the Union states). Lincoln described his
thought process as follows:
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Thank you for this. I too learned in school that the Civil War was all
about ending slavery. When I met my husband, I learned how much I'd been
taught about the Civil War was not all black and white. Now I believe
that God uses all things for good, and helping to end slavery is a great
good that came out of the Civil War.
There were as many racists in the North as there were in the South.
__________________
"I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper
you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Jerimiah 29:11
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May 25, '17, 6:01 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Martin
There are many reasons why people joined
the Confederacy, and slavery is just one. The prominent Confederate
generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, for example, did not join
the Confederacy to protect slavery; they joined to defend their home
state. Their motivations were quite common.
Slavery also existed in the North during the Civil War and ending it was
not a goal of the federal government. It was not until ending it became
useful to rally support and cause a disruption in the Confederate
economy that President Lincoln gave his famous Emancipation Proclamation
(which did not apply to the Union states). Lincoln described his
thought process as follows:
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Slavery was outlawed in the entire Union in 1865 though.
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May 25, '17, 6:22 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Today it's historical statues, tomorrow it will be our churches...
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May 25, '17, 6:32 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhubarb
I think you misunderstood what I mean.
Lost Cause is a historical interpretation put forth by post-bellum
historians that tries to paint the antebellum South and the buildup for
war in a certain way. ( http://civil-war-journeys.org/the_lost_cause.htm
) The Confederate government was fighting for a government for the
people and by the people... Are you honestly suggesting that? While its
constitution expressly and explicitly wrote into it clauses that dehumanized large swaths of its population? Let's see what Confederate leaders and politicians have to say about why the war was fought. |
Yes, the Confederacy was fought for democracy. The US constitution
also allowed slavery and counted slaves as three fifths as a person for
apportionment. Imperfection doesn't negate the larger goal. If the
Confederacy was wrong because of slavery then so is the US. The War
Between the States was fought between two governments that both had
slaves. So how on earth could the war be about ending slavery?
As for quotes we can mine lots of them. See what Lincoln said about
Blacks. He didn't think them equal to Whites or capable of living with
them. He also stated the war was not to end slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulfromIowa
You imagine yourself the proud
slavemaster fighting for his rights. Your perspective might be rather
different if you were the slave, or the laborer forced to compete with
slave labor.
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What about the poor soldier conscripted to fight? It seems to me
odd to condemn one side in a war because it allowed forced labor when
both sides had slavery and both sides had conscription.
__________________
We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 25, '17, 6:33 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by abucs
Hello Bill,
in your opinion, what were the main reasons for the beginning of the civil war?
I am not American although I have heard different thoughts about this topic.
Regards.
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I don't think the reasons were the same everywhere.
My state is the only one with both a Union and a Confederate monument at
Vicksburg. The legislature passed Articles of Secession and was
admitted to the Confederacy, but was never acknowledged by the Union as
having seceded. There was a reason for that. Confederate recruits from
Missouri could be hanged outright if captured, unlike prisoners of the
eleven states.
Why did Missouri secede? Because it was invaded by the Union. It made
the fatal mistake of trying to remain neutral, which entailed no Union
or Confederate draft in Missouri. Union forces invaded from both
Illinois and Kansas, took the state capitol and dispersed the state
government.
There was little slavery here, and most of it was confined to the
Mississippi and Missouri river valleys. Probably most Missourians did
not favor slavery, but did not favor invasion and martial law either.
Nor did they favor being drafted. (Remember, there were draft riots in
the east as well)
And so, in addition to major battles between "official" forces, guerilla
warfare was rife throughout the state. Reconstruction was one of the
worst imposed on any state. Among the early heroes in the conflict was a
Catholic chaplain to the Confederate forces. During Reconstruction,
some priests who had formerly been chaplains were hanged by the Union
forces.
At Vicksburg, the First Missouri (Union) was opposite the First Missouri
(Confederate) across the trenches during that siege. Both paused for a
short time while brothers from each side met in "no man's land" to
exchange letters to family. The Confederate brother, it is said, gave
all his money to the Union brother because the Confederate brother had
no way to get it to their mother who was in need.
Things like that gave the conflict an aspect that were far, far from
whether some rich family in St. Louis or New Madrid had a handful of
slaves or not. And to a southerner, remembrance is about the tragedy as
well as the heroism. The Confederate Missouri Brigade was the most
decorated unit of either side, and why? Because their situation was more
desperate. If captured they would be hanged as "traitors" not held or
exchanged as prisoners of war like the others. Slavery is no more
central to that than it was to those brothers from their respective
"First Missouris" at Vicksburg.
And it is, indeed, about a certain degree of defiance. To many, the
confederate battle flag says "you don't own me". It's the antithesis of
"I own you".
Just as an aside, our state flag is a "stealth" rebel flag too. It's the
flag of the old Missouri State Guard, which became the flag of the
Confederate "First Missouri" when the State Guard went over to the
Confederacy. But it doesn't stand for slavery, and never did.
Finally, at the time the war started, Missouri was almost entirely
inhabited by people who had come from other southern states and still
had family in those states. There was a kinship aspect to it as well.
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May 25, '17, 6:35 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusaderbear
Today it's historical statues, tomorrow it will be our churches...
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"Fear always works!" - mayor Bellwether.
But after a little rational thought we see that there is no logical
connection between taking down statues erected by the government and
taking down churches.
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May 25, '17, 6:42 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10gr8kids
Now I believe that God uses all things for good, and helping to end slavery is a great good that came out of the Civil War.
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Maybe. But slavery would have died out eventually. Realistically
it probably wouldn't have lasted much longer. A problem with how it
ended in the US is lots of people died. Also the former slaves were
emancipated unprepared, into a hostile environment, and used as tools
for retribution by the unjust victors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffsmurf
Slavery was outlawed in the entire Union in 1865 though.
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Slavery was outlawed in the North only with the passage of the
13th amendment. Most of the former Confederate states voted for the
13th. Delaware and New Jersey, Union states, voted against it.
__________________
We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 25, '17, 7:17 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tis Bearself
I tend to think the appropriate thing to
do is put these monuments in a museum or somewhere private where history
buffs, etc. can appreciate them for what they are (art, a commemoration
of a historical figure or historical era, etc.),
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Meanwhile in a Museum in a suburb south of Atlanta....
http://www.ajc.com/news/local/with-c...liC0z4opJ3GTI/
A Henry County commissioner requested a few months ago that a local Civil War museum remove its Confederate flags.
But without that symbol, the Nash Farm Battlefield and Museum announced
that it can’t conduct its mission properly and will close June 1.
In a Facebook post, the museum’s directors cited the request by District
2 Commissioner Dee Clemmons that all Confederate flags be removed from
the museum, in addition to the gift shop, “in an effort not to offend
anyone.”
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May 25, '17, 7:28 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, etc are next because they were 'evil' slave owners.
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Owning slaves is evil isn't it?
I couldn't care less if they take down all Confederate monuments.
I used to live in Richmond VA and you should have seen the uproar from
the southern sympathizers when the prospect of placing Arthur Ashe on
Monument Avenue along side the confederate "heroes" was put forward.
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May 25, '17, 8:49 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
The Taliban and Isis are destroying monuments and vestiges of cultures
in the Middle East that run counter to their worldview. In the US,
leftists want to remove monuments that commemorate events that shaped
our heritage, essentially erasing history. How can we hold a national
discussion of issues if we can't acknowledge or examine intelligently
what has actually happened? These simple-minded historical revisionists
want to force their two-dimensional views on a society that was built on
complex issues by people who were not simpletons, but heirs of a
classical education and tradition.
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May 25, '17, 9:02 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus
These simple-minded historical
revisionists want to force their two-dimensional views on a society that
was built on complex issues by people who were not simpletons, but
heirs of a classical education and tradition.
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I'm not sure what's so complex about the issues involved...
One group of people who lived off the unpaid forced labor of another
group thought that the Federal Government might pass laws to make it
more difficult to keep doing that, so they tried to leave the Union.
The Union didn't want them to leave, so they used armed force to prevent that from happening.
Did I miss anything?
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May 25, '17, 9:08 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringil
Owning slaves is evil isn't it?
I couldn't care less if they take down all Confederate monuments.
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No, owning slaves is not intrinsically evil. But if you think it
is and everything associated with it should be torn down then let's
demolish Georgetown, the White House, and the Capitol. It seems a bit
silly to tear down monuments to men but keep the product of their work.
If you reduce the men to a single aspect to condemn them then why not
all their works as well?
It seems we are more than happy to benefit from what we call immoral
works. Maybe the iconoclasm makes us feel better about that? We can feel
morally superior condemning long dead men. We can pour out righteous
anger on them. We have to because we have no intention of giving up the
immoral things they did if they benefit us.
__________________
We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 25, '17, 9:22 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus
The Taliban and Isis are destroying
monuments and vestiges of cultures in the Middle East that run counter
to their worldview. In the US, leftists want to remove monuments that
commemorate events that shaped our heritage, essentially erasing
history. How can we hold a national discussion of issues if we can't
acknowledge or examine intelligently what has actually happened? These
simple-minded historical revisionists want to force their
two-dimensional views on a society that was built on complex issues by
people who were not simpletons, but heirs of a classical education and
tradition.
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Then place the monuments in a museum dedicated the that
__________________
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"tough love thy neighbor as thyself. Get your own loaves and fishes!"- Stephen Colbert
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May 25, '17, 10:07 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
"Fear always works!" - mayor Bellwether.
But after a little rational thought we see that there is no logical
connection between taking down statues erected by the government and
taking down churches.
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Well, there is a concept called the proverbial "slippery slope" which is
often used in civil discussion on both sides of the political spectrum.
The main issue I was concerned about, however, with the monument was
whether or not if someone in our society disagrees or is offended by a
statue, sign, or symbol, they have the right to vandalize the statue,
sign, or symbol.
Someone stated [For] these very specific symbols, in this context? Yes.”
The problem is, this opens up a can of worms.
I wonder if that forum member would exonerate person X, hypothetically
speaking, if he or she vandalized a sign advertising a strip club
because strip clubs exploit women sexually and financially.
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--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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May 25, '17, 10:24 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechieGuy
I'm not sure what's so complex about the issues involved...
One group of people who lived off the unpaid forced labor of another
group thought that the Federal Government might pass laws to make it
more difficult to keep doing that, so they tried to leave the Union.
The Union didn't want them to leave, so they used armed force to prevent that from happening.
Did I miss anything?
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Missed quite a bit. Seceding was not an easy thing for many. I
have already spoken of Missouri, which was given no choice. In Arkansas,
which is practically in my back yard, the first time secession came up,
the legislature rejected it. Later, when it became apparent that
Arkansas was to be occupied by federal troops and its citizens be
subject to the draft, the legislature did pass articles of secession.
Slavery was not important to a number of states that seceded, but it was
a "Either you're with us or against us" choice from the Union
standpoint. The Union's hand was pretty heavy in all of that.
Today we don't think of states in the same way people did then. I think
it was historian Shelby Foote who opined that the only states that
really wanted the war were Massachusetts and South Carolina. I think
there is a lot of truth in that.
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May 25, '17, 10:37 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
Well, there is a concept called the
proverbial "slippery slope" which is often used in civil discussion on
both sides of the political spectrum.
The main issue I was concerned about, however, with the monument was
whether or not if someone in our society disagrees or is offended by a
statue, sign, or symbol, they have the right to vandalize the statue,
sign, or symbol.
Someone stated [For] these very specific symbols, in this context? Yes.”
The problem is, this opens up a can of worms.
I wonder if that forum member would exonerate person X, hypothetically
speaking, if he or she vandalized a sign advertising a strip club
because strip clubs exploit women sexually and financially.
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I was responding to Crusaderbear who had different concerns from
yours. As to your specific concerns, I agree with you. It is very
problematic to approve of private individuals undertaking the
destruction of symbols they personally find offensive. However there is a
big difference between that and a legitimate authority deciding to
remove a symbol that they own for the same reason.
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May 25, '17, 1:02 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhubarb
My initial reaction was "Good, Confederate monuments are a stain on our national fabric."
But then I saw he was a priest and I wasn't about to denigrate a man who
was trying to minister to soldiers - even if those soldiers were
fighting for abhorrent reasons. But then I looked into his poems and
this monument. He isn't being memorialized for selflessly giving of
himself to soothe the men during combat.
He is being memorialized for his contribution to the "Lost Cause"
mythology in his poems that was popular post-bellum. So I'm going to go
with my initial reaction. Good. Confederate monuments are a stain on our
national fabric.
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Taking down confederate monuments does not change history much as
you would like it to. IMO better they be left to posterity that this
should never happen again. One can choose what to be offended by, many
are offended by everything. And far too many spend their time looking
for things to be offended by.
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Last edited by mary bobo; May 25, '17 at 1:15 pm.
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May 25, '17, 1:16 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
No, owning slaves is not intrinsically evil.
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Really? Because the Catichism from the Vatican website seems to say differently. To whit:
2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any
reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to
the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and
exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It
is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to
reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of
profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian
slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother,
. . . both in the flesh and in the Lord."194
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May 25, '17, 1:18 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
Taking down confederate monuments does
not change history much as you would like it to. IMO better they be left
to posterity that this should never happen again. One can choose what
to be offended by, many are offended by everything. And far too many
spend their time looking for things to be offended by.
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It's not a matter of changing history. It's a matter of changing
what we as a society give honor and glory too. History books have plenty
to say about the history.
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May 25, '17, 3:23 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Missed quite a bit. Seceding was not an
easy thing for many. I have already spoken of Missouri, which was given
no choice. In Arkansas, which is practically in my back yard, the first
time secession came up, the legislature rejected it. Later, when it
became apparent that Arkansas was to be occupied by federal troops and
its citizens be subject to the draft, the legislature did pass articles
of secession.
Slavery was not important to a number of states that seceded, but it was
a "Either you're with us or against us" choice from the Union
standpoint. The Union's hand was pretty heavy in all of that.
Today we don't think of states in the same way people did then. I think
it was historian Shelby Foote who opined that the only states that
really wanted the war were Massachusetts and South Carolina. I think
there is a lot of truth in that.
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From:
http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.ne...x?entryID=1275
Quote:
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Slaves lived in every county and in both rural and urban settings in
antebellum Arkansas. Historian Orville Taylor estimated that roughly one
in four white Arkansans either owned slaves or lived in families that
did. Many more probably benefited from slavery, however, as leasing
slaves was not an uncommon practice. Although slavery clearly touched
the lives of many white Arkansans, most slave owners possessed only a
few slaves. The largest number of slaves were the property of the owners
of large plantations in the state’s lowlands, particularly in the rich
valley and delta lands along the state’s waterways. A relatively large
slave holding would have been ten slaves, a work force valued at about
$9,000 on the average in 1859, an amount equal to approximately $200,000
in 2002. By 1860, seventy-three percent of slaves were on plantations
and farms of that size. They were owned, however, by only about
twenty-six percent of the state’s slave owners. Elisha Worthington of
Chicot County was the state’s largest slave owner, holding more than 500
slaves on the eve of the Civil War.
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Like I said - slave-owners fighting to preserve slavery.
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May 25, '17, 3:32 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
I thought the national fabric was an
ideology of government for the people and by the people. If so the
Confederates were the ones fighting for that and the Union fighting
against it. The only reason to root for the Union side is if you value
an all powerful centralized government. That does seem to be the popular
choice these day. But then let's get rid of all the mythology
surrounding the birth of the US since it is the same as the Confederate
cause.
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There is a moral limit on "government for the people and by the
people" and that is when such a government violates God-given Natural
Law, which was clearly happening with Slavery.
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May 25, '17, 5:04 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechieGuy
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If your citation is accurate, it means 3/4 of the white population
did not own slaves or have a family member who did. Are we really
expected to believe 3/4 of the population undertook privation, desertion
of family, and the risk of a terrible death in order to benefit the
other 1/4? And in most counties in Arkansas, it was significantly fewer
than 1/4.
And the cost is interesting. If ten slaves would (at today's dollar)
cost $20,000 each, as your article suggests, that's a lot of money in
the almost cashless economy of a good part of the state at the time. A
great deal of the state of Arkansas is in the Ozarks. In my part of the
Ozarks, which is about 30 miles from Arkansas, whiskey served as the
trade medium because the great majority of the population had no cash at
all. The local "banker" was the miller, who ground farmers' grain for a
percentage of the grain, which he distilled into the whiskey that was
used in lieu of money.
Imaginably, slave owners fought to preserve slavery, but the great
majority of Arkansans had no stake in it at all and no prospect of it.
At the Ark. secession convention in March, 1861, the convention voted
against secession and agreed to adjourn until a statewide referendum
could be held the following August. But before the referendum, Lincoln
called for troops from all of the states in the Union. The convention
was then reconvened and the delegates voted for secession because
calling for Arkansas troops to fight against other southern states was
considered an abuse of federal power.
Undoubtedly, a minority of the convention delegates felt they were
preserving slavery. But slavery's preservation was not what changed the
majority's opposition to secession.
The relationship of states to the federal government just wasn't thought of in the same way then as it is now.
Last edited by Ridgerunner; May 25, '17 at 5:15 pm.
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May 25, '17, 5:22 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
If your citation is accurate, it means
3/4 of the white population did not own slaves or have a family member
who did. Are we really expected to believe 3/4 of the population
undertook privation, desertion of family, and the risk of a terrible
death in order to benefit the other 1/4? And in most counties in
Arkansas, it was significantly fewer than 1/4.
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The 3/4 didn't look at it as just benefiting the 1/4, they had a
tremendous stake in Slavery. It was part of their identity. It meant
that no matter how poor they were, there was a group of people to whom
they were superior. It is a well-known social phenomenon that is
verified by everyday experience.
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May 25, '17, 5:58 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
The 3/4 didn't look at it as just
benefiting the 1/4, they had a tremendous stake in Slavery. It was part
of their identity. It meant that no matter how poor they were, there was
a group of people to whom they were superior. It is a well-known social
phenomenon that is verified by everyday experience.
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Is it?
Non slave-owning whites had no stake in it and did not identify with it.
And slaves not infrequently lived as well or better than poor whites.
If an average slave really did cost $20,000 in today's money (and I
recall reading that a fit, young, male slave cost about five times that)
the slave owner was careful to keep him well nourished and alive,
something of which poor whites had no guarantee.
It is also a well-known social phenomenon that the poor often resent the rich.
Ever see a minie ball? It's soft lead and about 50 cal. If one hit you
anywhere it would tear your body apart. Everybody knew that, and yet the
soldiers stood shoulder to shoulder within easy range of their
opposites and fired round after round of minie balls at each other. It's
a wonder any of them lived. And, of course, there were cannon that
either exploded as a bomb or blew shrapnel or grapeshot like a giant
shotgun, tearing men to pieces. And, of course, one had to leave one's
family for an extended period, eat short rations, face scurvy, typhus
and other dread diseases of overcrowding, not be able to support one's
family in a subsistence economy,
And we're expected to believe men undertook that so they could feel superior to blacks that belonged to rich men?
No. Most of the yeoman farmers who were the bulk of the Confederate
armies fought because they were drafted or because they believed their
own freedom was at stake.
Or, as in my state's case, because the Union army invaded, shot citizens
on the streets of St. Louis, imprisoned members of the Missouri State
Guard, dissolved the legislature by force of arms, and commissioned
guerilla and bandit Jim Lane to invade from the west.
Remember, In March, 1861, Arkansas delegates voted against secession,
wanting to be neutral in the conflict. In April, Gen Nathaniel Lyon
began recruiting and arming Republican Unionist forces in St. Louis in
defiance of the state government of Missouri, which wished to remain
neutral. In May, Arkansas' delegates reversed themselves and voted for
secession.
It was not about Arkansans wanting to "feel superior" to blacks. They
could see neutrality was not an option open to them. They could either
fight against other southerners or against northerners. There was no way
out of that choice.
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May 25, '17, 6:16 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolicitorPirate
So I'm not American, but from what I
understand, aren't confederate symbols basically symbols glorifying
slavers? Why on earth would you want them to begin with?
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Yes. The war was fought because the south wanted to expand slavery
into new territories, and played victim when facing any obstacle to
this. Anyone who tells you otherwise is engaging in questionable
revisionism.
The fact that individual southerners had different personal reasons for
fighting, or that northerners were also racist does nothing to change
the fundamental reality that it was a war started by the confederacy to
preserve and expand slavery.
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May 25, '17, 6:22 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhubarb
Really? Because the Catichism from the Vatican website seems to say differently. To whit:
2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any
reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to
the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and
exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It
is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to
reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of
profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian
slave "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother,
. . . both in the flesh and in the Lord."194
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It would be a reversal of teaching to categorically say all slavery is intrinsically evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
There is a moral limit on "government for
the people and by the people" and that is when such a government
violates God-given Natural Law, which was clearly happening with
Slavery.
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OK. But if so both sides were more than happy to enslave people
under the name conscription. I can't get my head around the morality of
forcing people to fight and die so that other people won't be forced to
do work which doesn't typically risk their life. If that was even the
motivation which it wasn't.
__________________
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fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 26, '17, 4:56 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Mitch Landrieu cover all this quite nicely in a recent speech.
https://youtu.be/j81MkNgnXuY
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May 26, '17, 5:55 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
The so called abolition of slavery just produced a more insidious evil called segregation..
https://segregation-usa.jimdo.com/
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May 26, '17, 6:41 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
I love how they say the flag and monuments should be placed in a muesum and then want them kicked out of the muesum as well....
The Confederate Battle flag is not the flag of the Confederate States of
America....it is the flag of the soldiers and it is flown in honor of
then who fought and died for their home against what they saw as a
foreign invasion. Even the US Supreme Court refused toprosecute
Jefferson because there was a good chance they would loose since the law
appeared to be on the Confederate's side.
Keep in mind also that many of the statues being removed such as General
Lee, Longstreet, and Forrest were actually leading members in the
South's early civil rights movement...but that doesn't fit into the
narrative so just ignore the historical facts.
When many from the North and some for the South fought for and against
slavery many did not. I have ancestors on bith sides. Most Southerners
fought to defend their homes and most northerners fought to preserve the
Union.
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May 26, '17, 6:50 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Martin
There are many reasons why people joined the Confederacy, and slavery is just one.
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There were also many reasons people joined the national socialist
party in Germany, but it doesn't mean we should embrace the idea of
monuments to that organization in German cities.
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May 26, '17, 6:58 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesucated
There were also many reasons people
joined the national socialist party in Germany, but it doesn't mean we
should embrace the idea of monuments to that organization in German
cities.
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If you are going to run with that argument then we need to get rid
of monuments or names of almost everyone before probably about 1990. I
mean if the Confederates were like Nazis then surely Lincoln was with
his White supremacy. In more recent times, as Jesse Owens pointed out,
FDR didn't acknowledge him whereas Hitler did. Bush I used Willie Horton
ads in his campaign. You're going to have to destroy most of US
history.
__________________
We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 26, '17, 7:29 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Confederate symbols, monuments coming down, Rainbow flags, mosques going up, and it won't stop there.
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May 26, '17, 7:41 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
It would be a reversal of teaching to categorically say all slavery is intrinsically evil.
.
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Is the Catechism in error then?
I find your posts on this issue to be disturbing.
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May 26, '17, 7:50 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringil
Is the Catechism in error then?
I find your posts on this issue to be disturbing.
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I don't know if it is in error. If it is saying slavery is
intrinsically evil then that would seem to be a change of doctrine. It
would be like saying capital punishment is intrinsically evil. If
doctrine can't change then a change in teaching couldn't occur. Or if
doctrine can change then we've got a serious problem.
What exactly disturbs you?
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We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton
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May 26, '17, 7:51 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
We had Popes who were slave owners. Were they guilty of violating a catechism that was written after they were long gone ?
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May 26, '17, 8:17 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
We had Popes who were slave owners. Were they guilty of violating a catechism that was written after they were long gone ?
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I'm no historian, but it has been my understanding that slavery as
practiced in southern Europe (and for a time in Louisiana) was very
different from Anglo Saxon chattel slavery.
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May 26, '17, 8:26 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
I'm no historian, but it has been my
understanding that slavery as practiced in southern Europe (and for a
time in Louisiana) was very different from Anglo Saxon chattel slavery.
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Slavery is essentially owning the labor of another. All slavery
has this aspect. Chattel slavery was by far the most common. This simply
means you can buy and sell a slave. Roman slavery which existed at the
time of Christ was chattel slavery. I'm not sure when it died out.
Serfdom which is generally viewed as a type of slavery seems not very
different from the modern state. You are taxed because you occupy a
piece of land by some higher power. But like you I don't claim any
expertise in the mater.
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We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One
fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to
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May 26, '17, 8:33 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhubarb
My initial reaction was "Good, Confederate monuments are a stain on our national fabric."
But then I saw he was a priest and I wasn't about to denigrate a man who
was trying to minister to soldiers - even if those soldiers were
fighting for abhorrent reasons. But then I looked into his poems and
this monument. He isn't being memorialized for selflessly giving of
himself to soothe the men during combat.
He is being memorialized for his contribution to the "Lost Cause"
mythology in his poems that was popular post-bellum. So I'm going to go
with my initial reaction. Good. Confederate monuments are a stain on our
national fabric.
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Yeah, vandalizing graves, that's really hitting out at the 'man',
cool brother, once you have spray painted enough graves of people who
politics or ideology you disliked utopia will no doubt descend upon us.
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May 26, '17, 8:49 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
Confederate symbols, monuments coming down, Rainbow flags, mosques going up, and it won't stop there.
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And those things are all necessarily related? I have no problem
with removing Confederate symbols (although I don't care that much) but I
dont like Rainbow flags.
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May 26, '17, 8:52 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnihilo
I don't know if it is in error. If it is saying slavery is intrinsically evil then that would seem to be a change of doctrine.
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It can be looked at as a development in doctrine, which has occurred on many topics.
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May 26, '17, 9:05 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
Confederate symbols, monuments coming down, Rainbow flags, mosques going up, and it won't stop there.
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No,it won't. I think things like the monument in New York City to Fr.
Francis Duffy will become a target for purging soon given the strong
LGBT political muscle in NY - can't have a monument to a Catholic priest
can we, given the Church's teaching and the growing opinion that
Biblical values = 'hate speech." Actually, it's surprising that the ACLU
hasn't gone after it already. Then there are all those crosses and
Stars of David in military cemeteries; there have already been court
cases on those.
May 26, '17, 9:07 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus L
Confederate symbols, monuments coming down, Rainbow flags, mosques going up, and it won't stop there.
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Why are mosques chucked in there?
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May 26, '17, 9:43 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarpeian Rock
No,it won't. I think things like the
monument in New York City to Fr. Francis Duffy will become a target for
purging soon given the strong LGBT political muscle in NY - can't have a
monument to a Catholic priest can we, given the Church's teaching and
the growing opinion that Biblical values = 'hate speech." Actually, it's
surprising that the ACLU hasn't gone after it already. Then there are
all those crosses and Stars of David in military cemeteries; there have
already been court cases on those.
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Still don't see what taking down Confederate monuments and putting
up Rainbow flags and mosques all have to do with each other. Those are
all quite disparate things.
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May 26, '17, 2:26 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Why are mosques chucked in there?
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Mosques are scary.
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May 26, '17, 4:13 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Why are mosques chucked in there?
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Because of their links to a religion that is fundamentally incompatible with Western civilization.
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May 26, '17, 8:50 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Why are mosques chucked in there?
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Because they trigger the snowflakes that think freedom of religion means freedom of Christianity.
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May 27, '17, 11:37 am
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by starshiptrooper
Because of their links to a religion that is fundamentally incompatible with Western civilization.
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So the west has become civilized now? Good heavens the things you miss when you don't pay attention as you get older.
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May 27, '17, 1:31 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
Still don't see what taking down
Confederate monuments and putting up Rainbow flags and mosques all have
to do with each other. Those are all quite disparate things.
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A civil war museum just shut down. Without the Confederate flags, it is difficult to explain what took place.
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May 27, '17, 1:47 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
this is complicated by the fact that obviously racial slavey is wrong
yet this priest was serving the confederacy. it's like a priest chaplain
serving the nazis i suppose--not sure that happened.
the church will always be on the "wrong side" of things, not necessarily
to support a cause as much as the people, who in this case likely
weren't completely culpable in serving the confederacy. they probably
didn't have a choice. same with the chaplains who served in
iraq--clearly an unjustified war. but this monument is more about
honoring the confederacy if anything and probably should be removed.
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May 27, '17, 2:03 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
that monument is a disgrace--needs to be removed after looking at
it--too bad they used a priest's service to give legitimacy to the
confederacy.
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May 27, '17, 2:33 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
another complexity it this situation is that by in large, catholics
faced more discrimination in with the abolitionists and protestants in
the north than at times in the south--Jefferson Davis received a crown
of thorns from the pope!
though he didn't support the confederacy, but he sympathized with thier
cause somewhat because he was prisoner in the vatican because of a
similar nationalization that was also occurring across europe at that
time. jefferson davis's children attended catholic schools.
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May 27, '17, 4:21 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10gr8kids
Thank you for this. I too learned in school that the Civil War was all about ending slavery. When I met my husband, I learned how much I'd been taught about the Civil War was not all black and white. Now I believe that God uses all things for good, and helping to end slavery is a great good that came out of the Civil War.
There were as many racists in the North as there were in the South.
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It pretty much was, racially speaking...
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May 27, '17, 4:35 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Slavery opponent Henry Clay hit's the nail on the head regarding America after the abolition of slavery http://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/750.html
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May 27, '17, 4:47 pm
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Re: Monument dedicated to Confederate poet-priest vandalized
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
And those things are all necessarily
related? I have no problem with removing Confederate symbols (although I
don't care that much) but I dont like Rainbow flags.
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The problem is if we are going to use a subjective argument for
vandalism against legal property, we can defend defacing abortion
clinic, destroying floats in gay pride parades, and a host of other
things we find distasteful.
This attitude runs contrary to Church teachings. For some, I realize the
confederacy represents the worst thing in the history of the world.
That is frankly neither here nor there with regard to destroying
legitimate property.
Unless you believe we should be able to destroy or deface ANYTHING we
find distasteful, but that will leave a lot of Catholic Church's okay
for vandalism.
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