Anyone read 1984?
What do you think of Orwell's vision of a disordered 1984 utopia? Do you
see any of these extreme ideas in our society. I am particularly
interested in "The Party's" use of "Newspeak" and it's similarities with
Politically Correct speak in our time.
What do you think?
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"No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true Socialist." Pius XII
Re: Anyone read 1984?
This guy, along with Kurt Vonnegut, are just way overated.
This author was a staunch leftist, who fought with the Communists in
Spain who killed nuns and priests, and believed in some idiosyncratic
form of socialism which he never explained (he never defined what his
ideal society would look like).
He lived at the beginnings of the British Welfare State, under Clement
Atlee, and I don't know if those socialist reforms even satisfied him.
The lasted until Margaret Thatcher.
His books Animal Farm and 1984, are interesting, but he acerbicly
satirized the Church of England in a Clergyman's Daughter novel and
really showed a contempt for Christianity in that novel; he once said in
an essay that he sympathized most with the character of Satan in
Milton's Paradise Lost which he had to read in school.
It sounded like his ideal society was Communist Republican Spain, minus the Soviet agents and troops who were sent to
support the democratically elected communist government in the 1930's,
which he went to fight and die for as a volunteer Spanish Communist
soldier. He described it in his memoir a Homage to Catalonia.
I think you can argue both ways persuasively whether he liked Communism
or hated Communism. From what I read, he hated Stalinist communism, but
wanted a British socialist state. So, he was sort of like George Bernard
Shaw in that regard.
Don't ask me why I read so much of this crank's writings; I guess it was
because some people are under the delusion that he is a great writer
and told me to read his writings. I didn't know there are better books
out there to read.
He is an interesting as political writer his writing style is
entertaining, but I don't think he's a Great Writer; as a Catholic, I
would say his writings are dark and cynical; not good for the soul.
Sep 20, '07, 5:45 pm
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Re: Anyone read 1984?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
This guy, along with Kurt Vonnegut, are just way overated.
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None of the comments that follow support this claim, because none
of them pertain to literary merit, except perhaps the claim that he's
dark and cynical. I would agree that Orwell is not on the level of
someone like Dante or Dostoyevsky, or maybe even Dickens, and that his
lack of hope and the transcendent has a lot to do with that. But he's
still a darn good writer and there's a lot to learn from him.
Edwin
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Sep 20, '07, 5:50 pm
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Re: Anyone read 1984?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rr1213
Frankly, I see "newspeak" to have more in common with the Thirteenth
Rule of St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits than with
today's political correctness nonsense...
Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that
the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides
it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the
Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us
for the salvation of our souls. Because
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...la-spirex.html
In 1984, if the State decreed that "white" was "black" or that "black"
was "white" the people were mandated to use Newspeak to modify their
thinking so as to come into line with the new party line. The
similarities to Loyola's Thirteenth Rule are striking in my opinion.
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I think this passage is trying to express the absolute loyalty that the Jesuits have to the Catholic Church's Magisterium,
its Teaching Authority. I don't think it is similar to trying to
deliberately erase the annals of history or manipulate information and
facts, as the fictional government portrayed in 1984 was doing, if that
is what you're trying to allude to.
I think what Ignatius is trying to express with the white /black analogy
is that a Jesuit's loyalty to the Catholic Church should be so absolute
that if a Jesuit has an opinion about something, and the Catholic
Church of Jesus Christ holds an opinion different from the Jesuit's
opinion, a Jesuit should follow the Churches teaching, because "by the
same Spirit (Holy Spirit) and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments,
our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed."
For example, "Liberation Theology." The hierarchy of the Catholic Church
including Pope John Paul II, the Vicar of Christ on earth, told some of
these Jesuit theologians to tone it down.
That quote does not mean if the Pope said the moon was made of green
cheese, but I know its rock, I now have to see green cheese on the moon.
Don't forget, Jesuits take a vow before God of Obediance for their
order. Obediance is extremely important in religious life; Ignatius is
talking about matters of faith and morals.
The Catholic Church is part of the Kingdom of God; it is not a modern
secular relativist atheistic university where God plays no role in human
thought except maybe off-campus.
There are all sorts of strange and sinister theories about the Jesuits
out there on the net. Some website I once came across while doing some
research on Freemasonry said the current superior of the order rules the
world and other nonsense like that.
Catholicism is not based on faith alone, or reason alone, but a blend of both Faith and Reason.
Also Contarini, when I say George Orwell is overrated, I'm referring to
the ideas expressed in his writings and his status as a thinker. Sorry, I
don't have time to write a 60 page paper, doing in depth literary
analysis with hairsplitting analysis..
I'm just trying to say, just because this man was a novelist and
essayist, I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything he wrote just
because it was published by Harcourt Brace and Company.
Last edited by Dwyer; Sep 20, '07 at 6:06 pm.
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Sep 20, '07, 6:00 pm
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Re: Anyone read 1984?
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini
None of the comments that follow support
this claim, because none of them pertain to literary merit, except
perhaps the claim that he's dark and cynical. I would agree that Orwell
is not on the level of someone like Dante or Dostoyevsky, or maybe even
Dickens, and that his lack of hope and the transcendent has a lot to do
with that. But he's still a darn good writer and there's a lot to learn
from him.
Edwin
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I agree. While the whole idea that any of the methods used by THE
PARTY could be, in reality, successful in granting permanant power, the
methods Orwell imagines are amazingly thorough. I never felt personally
very disturbed until the issue of "what is truth" comes up. He really
got me thinking about the idea that reality of truth may exist only in
one's mind. All the more important the need for God as the touchstone. I
think that this book goes far in saying, at least to me, that without
God there is no truth.
__________________
"No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true Socialist." Pius XII
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Sep 20, '07, 7:43 pm
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Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 2,856
Religion: Catholic (former TEC & UMC)
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Re: Anyone read 1984?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
I think this passage is trying to express the absolute loyalty that the Jesuits have to the Catholic Church's Magisterium,
its Teaching Authority. I don't think it is similar to trying to
deliberately erase the annals of history or manipulate information and
facts, as the fictional government portrayed in 1984 was doing, if that
is what you're trying to allude to.
I think what Ignatius is trying to express with the white /black analogy
is that a Jesuit's loyalty to the Catholic Church should be so absolute
that if a Jesuit has an opinion about something, and the Catholic
Church of Jesus Christ holds an opinion different from the Jesuit's
opinion, a Jesuit should follow the Churches teaching, because "by the
same Spirit (Holy Spirit) and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments,
our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed." ...
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For those of us who don't hold that the Catholic Church is infallible, Ignatius' Thirteenth Rule looks plenty Orwellian.
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Sep 21, '07, 11:37 am
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Join Date: November 2, 2006
Posts: 879
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Anyone read 1984?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rr1213
For those of us who don't hold that the Catholic Church is infallible, Ignatius' Thirteenth Rule looks plenty Orwellian.
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The only way it would be "Orwellian" is if the people had no
choice to believe this. At any time they were free to leave. Our Faith
does not force itself upon anyone. One is called to investigate and form
one's faith. What good would it do the church to physically force
people, priests or laity, to believe?
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"No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true Socialist." Pius XII
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