Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up

Jun 28, '16, 3:47 pm

AFerri48 Regular Member   Join Date: October 21, 2015 Posts: 894 Religion: Catholic

Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/op...o-wake-up.html Some tidbits... "Surprise, surprise. Workers in Britain, many of whom have seen a decline in their standard of living while the very rich in their country have become much richer, have turned their backs on the European Union and a globalized economy that is failing them and their children" "Could this rejection of the current form of the global economy happen in the United States? You bet it could. During my campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination, I’ve visited 46 states. What I saw and heard on too many occasions were painful realities that the political and media establishment fail even to recognize. In the last 15 years, nearly 60,000 factories in this country have closed, and more than 4.8 million well-paid manufacturing jobs have disappeared. Much of this is related to disastrous trade agreements that encourage corporations to move to low-wage countries." "Let’s be clear. The global economy is not working for the majority of people in our country and the world. This is an economic model developed by the economic elite to benefit the economic elite. We need real change." "We need to fundamentally reject our “free trade” policies and move to fair trade. Americans should not have to compete against workers in low-wage counties who earn pennies an hour. We must defeat the Trans-Pacific Partnership. We must help poor countries develop sustainable economic models." "The notion that Donald Trump could benefit from the same forces that gave the Leave proponents a majority in Britain should sound an alarm for the Democratic Party in the United States. Millions of American voters, like the Leave supporters, are understandably angry and frustrated by the economic forces that are destroying the middle class."

#2   Jun 28, '16, 4:05 pm

jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,541 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it!

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up says the man that wants to tax the "super rich" to death (90% is what I heard) to reduce the debt, and that would include corporations, driving them even MORE off shore....causing the loss of jobs... __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!

#3   Jun 28, '16, 4:50 pm

jeannetherese Regular Member   Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 3,598 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz says the man that wants to tax the "super rich" to death (90% is what I heard) to reduce the debt, and that would include corporations, driving them even MORE off shore....causing the loss of jobs... Not that the super rich were out with picks and shovels making their own wealth; more likely, you (or some 3rd world worker) was making it for them. I'd take Bernie over Hillary any day of the week. If he was pro-life, he just might have taken the election .

#4   Jun 28, '16, 5:02 pm

Avdima Junior Member   Join Date: June 8, 2013 Posts: 259 Religion: In search of...

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz says the man that wants to tax the "super rich" to death (90% is what I heard) to reduce the debt, and that would include corporations, driving them even MORE off shore....causing the loss of jobs... The biggest period of economic growth in the US has been when the top marginal tax rate was 90%.

#5   Jun 28, '16, 5:32 pm

Thom18 Regular Member   Join Date: January 8, 2016 Posts: 796 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz says the man that wants to tax the "super rich" to death (90% is what I heard) to reduce the debt, and that would include corporations, driving them even MORE off shore....causing the loss of jobs... And didn't he say he wants to abolish private charity? Back when he was a socialist mayor?

#6   Jun 28, '16, 5:34 pm

Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,710 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Avdima The biggest period of economic growth in the US has been when the top marginal tax rate was 90%. I think one man actually paid it, though. Nobody else.

#7   Jun 28, '16, 5:35 pm

Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up I voted for Bernie. I would again. But I have to say I feel with each passing day he is becoming less relevant. He ran a terrific campaign. But the page has turned. Hillary Clinton received millions more votes and either she or Donald Trump is going to be President. On the issues alone, I would have been voting for Hillary Clinton over Trump regardless of what Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren did. But Sen Warren is making it very clear to Bernie supporters that Hillary Clinton is far better than Trump. That said, here are reasons why you can't compare Brexit with the upcoming US election. US voters will be considering a multitude of issues as well as Donald Trump's character and preparedness for the office he is seeking. Just the other day even the Senate leader from Trump's own party wouldn't say if he was qualified. Also in the US we have the Electoral College and then there is the demographics of the very diverse electorate. According to the CIA World Factbook, the British population was more than 87% white in 2011. Other estimates put the ratio at higher than 90%. Meanwhile, a Pew survey from earlier this year found that the U.S. electorate in 2016 will be the country's most racially and ethnically diverse ever. More than 30% of eligible voters will come from a racial or ethnic minority group. The white vote is expected to make up 69% of eligible voters, down from 71% in 2012. For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric, victory will likely have to come from securing a large portion of a diminishing slice of the electoral pie. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/politi...-donald-trump/ __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)

#8   Jun 28, '16, 6:04 pm

PaulfromIowa Senior Member   Join Date: September 7, 2012 Posts: 6,088 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Democrats do need to wake up, but not in the way Mr. Sanders thinks. They need to quit promoting the violent abortion of innocent children. Nothing else an abortion advocate says can be believed or taken seriously. An abortion advocate's mind is so warped morally that he cannot be trusted.

#9   Jun 28, '16, 6:21 pm

Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz says the man that wants to tax the "super rich" to death (90% is what I heard) to reduce the debt, and that would include corporations, driving them even MORE off shore....causing the loss of jobs... Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top marginal rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close. Really, he's just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country. Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too. Edit: I see that Avdima beat me to it.

#10   Jun 28, '16, 6:25 pm

Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner I think one man actually paid it, though. Nobody else. Income distribution was a lot less unequal back then -- the gap between working people and the rich (with a few exceptions) was much, much smaller. Yes, today more people would hit that top tax bracket, that's almost certainly true.

#11   Jun 28, '16, 6:39 pm

stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,555 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner I think one man actually paid it, though. Nobody else. Can you link the source of that claim?

#12   Jun 28, '16, 6:47 pm

ManOnFire Regular Member   Join Date: January 16, 2010 Posts: 2,339 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top marginal rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close. Really, he's just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country. Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too. Edit: I see that Avdima beat me to it. Or maybe the romanticism of the Baby Boom age was the Motivation for dads to work hard to put food on the table to prevent their kids from starving. The new progressives see no need for population growth or God. Try raising taxes to 90% and see what it does to the Motivation of a declining native born population. They'll want to have even less kids. But then that's part of the plan.

#13   Jun 28, '16, 7:14 pm

Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by ManOnFire Or maybe the romanticism of the Baby Boom age was the Motivation for dads to work hard to put food on the table to prevent their kids from starving. The new progressives see no need for population growth or God. Try raising taxes to 90% and see what it does to the Motivation of a declining native born population. They'll want to have even less kids. But then that's part of the plan. Once again, Sanders isn't talking about raising taxes to 90%. He's advocating an increase in the top marginal rate, and only that, to 90% (or somewhere in that neighborhood). I hear a lot of claims that people will be less motivated to work if taxes increase. I think to make that case, you'd have to show that people were lazier and unmotivated in times when we've had (much) higher tax rates. So go ahead. Make the case.

#14   Jun 28, '16, 8:56 pm

ManOnFire Regular Member   Join Date: January 16, 2010 Posts: 2,339 Religion: Catholic

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Once again, Sanders isn't talking about raising taxes to 90%. He's advocating an increase in the top marginal rate, and only that, to 90% (or somewhere in that neighborhood). I hear a lot of claims that people will be less motivated to work if taxes increase. I think to make that case, you'd have to show that people were lazier and unmotivated in times when we've had (much) higher tax rates. So go ahead. Make the case. I already did make the case. Having a large family during the Eisenhower years was enough for mom to stay home to raise kids while the population exploded. The native population is not only no longer exploding, it's shrinking. Only immigration is growing the population. Rand Paul mentioned during the debates how the boom messed with the economy.

#15   Jun 28, '16, 10:42 pm

PseuTonym Regular Member   Join Date: December 9, 2013 Posts: 1,101

Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric Laws that aren't actually enforced are rhetoric. They are empty words. Why not auction off 100,000 US passports to citizens of Japan? I mean auction in the sense of selling them to the highest bidders who are eligible. I say "who are eligible" because there would have to be some restrictions, such as not selling the passports to citizens of Japan who have been convicted of serious crimes. That would generate revenue. Of course, there would then be bait for people who oppose Trump: anti-Japanese sentiment based on events in World War Two. However, why should there be sentiments against people who faced military conscription? Maybe the US government should work with other members of the UN to create a new international agency that will help people who don't want to become soldiers and who face threats from governments that want to force military service. Also, how can one talk about tolerance and forgiveness while maintaining a grudge against an entire nation-state that happens to be an ally of the US?      Jun 28, '16, 11:10 pm CaptFun Regular Member   Join Date: May 26, 2010 Posts: 4,998 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Wake up or ... Go to sleep. Either one.   #17   Jun 29, '16, 7:37 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top marginal rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close. Really, he's just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country. Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too. Edit: I see that Avdima beat me to it. Thanks for this. During the primary, I remember having to explain to a Trump supporter who clearly had no clue about what a marginal tax rate is, that Bernie was not proposing to tax all their income at 90%. And that person's income is such that actually no portion of it at all would even fall in the top bracket anyway. As you stated a top marginal rate of 90% is not even close to taxing all their income at 90%. Far from it. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #18   Jun 29, '16, 7:57 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top marginal rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close. Really, he's just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country. Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too. Edit: I see that Avdima beat me to it. Except he is not suggesting we return to the deduction and tax credit system we had during the Eisenhower years. Nor is he suggesting a return to income averaging, the repealing of passive loss rules, repealing at risk rules or implementing any other number of tax benefits that deeply mitigated the 90% rate.   #19   Jun 29, '16, 7:58 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jeannetherese Not that the super rich were out with picks and shovels making their own wealth; more likely, you (or some 3rd world worker) was making it for them. I'd take Bernie over Hillary any day of the week. If he was pro-life, he just might have taken the election . I think he and his supporters, including me, believe that he is pro-life by his stance on economics, education, healthcare, immigration, environment, incarceration, etc..   #20   Jun 29, '16, 8:05 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,710 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Thanks for this. During the primary, I remember having to explain to a Trump supporter who clearly had no clue about what a marginal tax rate is, that Bernie was not proposing to tax all their income at 90%. And that person's income is such that actually no portion of it at all would even fall in the top bracket anyway. As you stated a top marginal rate of 90% is not even close to taxing all their income at 90%. Far from it. Only Trump supporters are vague on what marginal rates are? Some troubling aspects of Clinton's tax plan are: -Lowering the exemption from the "death tax" from the present 5million to 3.5 million. While either seems like a lot to some, there are a lot of people with estates of 3.5 million. For farmers, ranchers and small business owners, it means sale of the asset, so the family can't have it anymore. -Capping itemized deductions to 28%. The ability to deduct income is very important to business start-ups. Oftentimes it's the only thing that makes it possible. -Modest increase of the tax on super-high earners is almost certainly illusory, because they always find a way to avoid it. -It, combined with her spending plan, still produces a net deficit. The only really comforting aspect of her spending/taxation plans are that she probably doesn't really intend the benefit parts that compose most of the spending increases. What really needs to the thought about in all of this is who is most able to buy her. Anybody whose fortunes are going to be determined by the most likely buyer of Hillary Clinton will do well under her presidency. If your life is determined by the losers in the bidding, you'll lose too. So, if your employer is Goldman Sachs or Walmart, or an importer of foreign oil, you'll probably gain. If your employer is the rival of either of the first two or a domestic competitor of the middle eastern oil producers, you'll probably lose.   #21   Jun 29, '16, 8:17 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Only Trump supporters are vague on what marginal rates are? Some troubling aspects of Clinton's tax plan are: -Lowering the exemption from the "death tax" from the present 5million to 3.5 million. While either seems like a lot to some, there are a lot of people with estates of 3.5 million. For farmers, ranchers and small business owners, it means sale of the asset, so the family can't have it anymore. -Capping itemized deductions to 28%. The ability to deduct income is very important to business start-ups. Oftentimes it's the only thing that makes it possible. -Modest increase of the tax on super-high earners is almost certainly illusory, because they always find a way to avoid it. -It, combined with her spending plan, still produces a net deficit. The only really comforting aspect of her spending/taxation plans are that she probably doesn't really intend the benefit parts that compose most of the spending increases. What really needs to the thought about in all of this is who is most able to buy her. Anybody whose fortunes are going to be determined by the most likely buyer of Hillary Clinton will do well under her presidency. If your life is determined by the losers in the bidding, you'll lose too. So, if your employer is Goldman Sachs or Walmart, or an importer of foreign oil, you'll probably gain. If your employer is the rival of either of the first two or a domestic competitor of the middle eastern oil producers, you'll probably lose. Basically her tax plan nails the middle class while having little impact on the "rich" who's itemized deductions and exemptions are already limited. When they ask John Dillinger why he robbed banks he answered "because that where the money is" That is the same reason all tax reforms disparately impact the middle class.   #22   Jun 29, '16, 8:21 am jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,541 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it! Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes I think he and his supporters, including me, believe that he is pro-life by his stance on economics, education, healthcare, immigration, environment, incarceration, etc.. except he IS not pro life on the MOST important issue: The life of the unborn child in the womb. That child represents the future of america. Voting for someone who is in favor of tearing that child apart piece by piece and then suctioning their tiny body out...or just tearing apart piece by piece...or even worse....prematurely delivering the child deliberately breech position so they can puncture the head and suck out the brains....that is one of the sins that cry out to heaven for Vengeance. __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!   #23   Jun 29, '16, 8:49 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz except he IS not pro life on the MOST important issue: The life of the unborn child in the womb. That child represents the future of america. Voting for someone who is in favor of tearing that child apart piece by piece and then suctioning their tiny body out...or just tearing apart piece by piece...or even worse....prematurely delivering the child deliberately breech position so they can puncture the head and suck out the brains....that is one of the sins that cry out to heaven for Vengeance. I hear you and why can't the pro-lifer politicians who control both the Congress and the Senate and the numerous Pro-Life Presidents do anything about it? And if by voting Trump, a tentacle of Mammon god, CAPITALISM, who in my honest opinion is responsible for all evil in the world, is going to solve the issue???   #24   Jun 29, '16, 8:51 am Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Bernie Sanders wants to create a socialist state in America. I would not listen to his advice. He is proposing what Our Lady of Fatima warned about.   #25   Jun 29, '16, 8:59 am jeannetherese Regular Member   Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 3,598 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes I think he and his supporters, including me, believe that he is pro-life by his stance on economics, education, healthcare, immigration, environment, incarceration, etc.. While I share in their concern for those issues, one must be alive in order to enjoy the benefits of economic, education and healthcare programs and of changes in immigration, environmental or incarceration programs. They are very important, but I tend to associate them with quality of life, rather than as prerequisites for life itself.   #26   Jun 29, '16, 9:03 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Bernie Sanders wants to create a socialist state in America. I would not listen to his advice. He is proposing what Our Lady of Fatima warned about. Please do tell what OUR LADY OF FATIMA warned about that has something to do with a socialist state? Donald Trump is proposing something that is evil, CAPITALISM and the worship of Mammon, where everything and everyone is objectified to be Capitalized on....   #27   Jun 29, '16, 9:14 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jeannetherese While I share in their concern for those issues, one must be alive in order to enjoy the benefits of economic, education and healthcare programs and of changes in immigration, environmental or incarceration programs. They are very important, but I tend to associate them with quality of life, rather than as prerequisites for life itself. There aren't pro-life or pro birth progressive Democrats enough to push this issue to transform Sanders politics. His wife is Catholic and how I wish she'd be more influencial on this issue.   #28   Jun 29, '16, 9:16 am Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes Please do tell what OUR LADY OF FATIMA warned about that has something to do with a socialist state? Donald Trump is proposing something that is evil, CAPITALISM and the worship of Mammon, where everything and everyone is objectified to be Capitalized on.... Our Lady of Fatima said that Russia would spread her error throughout the world. Russia was becoming socialist at the time.   #29   Jun 29, '16, 9:56 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,555 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Only Trump supporters are vague on what marginal rates are? Some troubling aspects of Clinton's tax plan are: -Lowering the exemption from the "death tax" from the present 5million to 3.5 million. While either seems like a lot to some, there are a lot of people with estates of 3.5 million. For farmers, ranchers and small business owners, it means sale of the asset, so the family can't have it anymore. The family could always take out a loan to pay the estate tax. If a $5 million business could not support such a loan, then those assets really ought to be in the hands of someone more capable anyway. Personally, if given a choice between the estate tax and the income tax, I would prefer the estate tax. Taxes paid when I am dead are always less painful than taxes I pay when I am alive. I also think it is better to teach one's kids to fish rather than give them a fish. Quote: -Capping itemized deductions to 28%. The ability to deduct income is very important to business start-ups. Oftentimes it's the only thing that makes it possible. Itemized deductions are not business deductions. Quote: -Modest increase of the tax on super-high earners is almost certainly illusory, because they always find a way to avoid it. -It, combined with her spending plan, still produces a net deficit. The only really comforting aspect of her spending/taxation plans are that she probably doesn't really intend the benefit parts that compose most of the spending increases. What really needs to the thought about in all of this is who is most able to buy her. Anybody whose fortunes are going to be determined by the most likely buyer of Hillary Clinton will do well under her presidency. If your life is determined by the losers in the bidding, you'll lose too. So, if your employer is Goldman Sachs or Walmart, or an importer of foreign oil, you'll probably gain. If your employer is the rival of either of the first two or a domestic competitor of the middle eastern oil producers, you'll probably lose. I think anyone's tax proposals are always going to be significantly changed before they are enacted. Even Reagan's 86 tax reforms had a lot of special interest giveaways in them.   #30   Jun 29, '16, 10:02 am Zzyzx Road Regular Member   Join Date: October 30, 2013 Posts: 817 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Bernie is pushing more globalism. In that respect, not much difference from Hillary. 90% marginal tax rate with limits on deductions to mitigate it will cause most people in that bracket to not work so hard. Why work hard for that extra $10k if I'm only going to keep $1k? Worse yet, the top marginal rate in California is already 13.3%. So a Californian who finds himself in the 90% tax bracket will end up paying 103.3% of each additional dollar of income in taxes. That will go over real well, can we say hello to capital flight? __________________ For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. --John 3:17     Jun 29, '16, 10:15 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Our Lady of Fatima said that Russia would spread her error throughout the world. Russia was becoming socialist at the time. Russia's error is not so much on its adaptation style of governance but what THE LADY OF FATIMA was insinuating was Russia's adoption of ATHEISM. Sanders Socialism is far from being atheistic. His political views is rooted from,"DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU."   #32   Jun 29, '16, 1:03 pm Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes Russia's error is not so much on its adaptation style of governance but what THE LADY OF FATIMA was insinuating was Russia's adoption of ATHEISM. Sanders Socialism is far from being atheistic. His political views is rooted from,"DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU." Bernie Sanders' socialism is still secular and materialistic.   #33   Jun 29, '16, 5:50 pm holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Bernie Sanders' socialism is still secular and materialistic. I think you can say that to all countries' form of government and IMHO USA would become even more secular and materialistic if Trump is elected.   #34   Jun 29, '16, 6:03 pm stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,555 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes I think you can say that to all countries' form of government and IMHO USA would become even more secular and materialistic if Trump is elected. Secular and materialistic is not necessarily bad by itself.   #35   Jun 29, '16, 6:19 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up He'll go back to the Senate room floor / Aye and he won't bother us no more. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #36   Jun 29, '16, 6:46 pm Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Bernie Sanders wants to create a socialist state in America. I would not listen to his advice. He is proposing what Our Lady of Fatima warned about. Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist.   #37   Jun 29, '16, 7:08 pm Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist. A social democrat is a socialist.   #38   Jun 29, '16, 7:21 pm Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by holyreyes Please do tell what OUR LADY OF FATIMA warned about that has something to do with a socialist state? Donald Trump is proposing something that is evil, CAPITALISM and the worship of Mammon, where everything and everyone is objectified to be Capitalized on.... He also says he likes waterboarding a lot but doesn't think it's tough enough. Something tougher? Torture is an intrinsic evil. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #39   Jun 29, '16, 7:22 pm Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist. Exactly. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #40   Jun 29, '16, 7:27 pm jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,541 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it! Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist. And how do you pay for the "free" tuition???? With higher taxes. Those professors won't work for free. Progressive tax code is keyword for MORE taxes on those evil rich (and more on the middle class, too) __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!   #41   Jun 29, '16, 7:58 pm Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 A social democrat is a socialist. OK, whatever you say. I think, around here, the word "socialist" is used to mean "anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan." I mean, you'd call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let's not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all. And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican. But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain't it.   #42   Jun 29, '16, 8:01 pm Inisfallen Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2013 Posts: 1,474 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz And how do you pay for the "free" tuition???? With higher taxes. Those professors won't work for free. Yes. Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz Progressive tax code is keyword for MORE taxes on those evil rich (and more on the middle class, too) Yes. Well, actually, it's not "code." It's pretty up front about it. Look, if in some alternate universe Bernie Sanders got elected and got his program through both houses and signed it into law, my taxes would go up. Possibly substantially. That's fine. I would consider it money well spent. My "right" not to be taxed does not trump the rights of my brothers and sisters to health care and education. Or their right not to have their lives and retirements destroyed by the casino capitalists of Wall Street.   #43   Jun 30, '16, 5:52 am jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,541 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it! Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up You want affordable college? I went to a community college instead of the big university. Smaller classes, less tuition. And no hookup culture or fraternities/sororities. I don't want taxes raised because the government is not who is supposed to pay for these things. Jesus told US to care for the poor, not have Caesar (the government) do it. Bernie would probably make Americans pay for abortion, like Hilary wants us to. Sorry, but the man is a nut who has no understanding of economics ($15 an hour minimum wage would put a lot of small businesses OUT OF BUSINESS and you do know the cost of living increases.....like food, etc? As for single payer insurance, I don't trust the government who is deeply in debt to handle health insurance. __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!   #44   Jun 30, '16, 8:28 am holyreyes Junior Member   Join Date: January 25, 2014 Posts: 104 Religion: Catholic(Universal) Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz And how do you pay for the "free" tuition???? With higher taxes. Those professors won't work for free. This issue is so miniscule... Let me throw some more to make it sounds more socialistic. Free Education, Universal Healthcare, Food and Shelter(basic necessities)for everyone in the country and anyone in the world so that they become the best version of themselves to be able to contribute well. All of these can be easilly done if the wealth of the nation is shifted away from expensive military, incarceration, foreign interests, rich entitlements, tax free for the rich to those basic necessities.   #45   Jun 30, '16, 8:36 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Only Trump supporters are vague on what marginal rates are? I don't recall saying that. Just that the one I had to explain it to was. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis) Jun 30, '16, 8:39 am Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen OK, whatever you say. I think, around here, the word "socialist" is used to mean "anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan." I mean, you'd call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let's not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all. And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican. But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain't it. I would never call Richard Nixon a socialist. He was very anti-socialist. Franklin Roosevelt wasn't even that far-left either.   #47   Jun 30, '16, 8:40 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen OK, whatever you say. I think, around here, the word "socialist" is used to mean "anyone to the left, even by one inch, of Ronald Reagan." I mean, you'd call Richard Nixon a socialist, right? He proposed national health insurance and the negative income tax. And let's not even get started on Lyndon Johnson, what with Medicare and Medicaid and all. And Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Made Lenin look like a Republican. But in the rest of the world, the word has a specific and generally understood meaning. And Bernie Sanders ain't it. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #48   Jun 30, '16, 8:41 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Yes. Yes. Well, actually, it's not "code." It's pretty up front about it. Look, if in some alternate universe Bernie Sanders got elected and got his program through both houses and signed it into law, my taxes would go up. Possibly substantially. That's fine. I would consider it money well spent. My "right" not to be taxed does not trump the rights of my brothers and sisters to health care and education. Or their right not to have their lives and retirements destroyed by the casino capitalists of Wall Street. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #49   Jun 30, '16, 8:47 am Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Bernie Sanders needs to wake up, socialism is a dead end and the proof is Venezuela. The socialists in charge down there continue to get everything they need, while the average person is waiting on line for toilet paper. TOILET PAPER! Yes it's true, Bernie's utopian socialist dream ends up like that. Remember, socialism is for the people, not the socialists.   #50   Jun 30, '16, 8:49 am Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist. He's not advocating nationalizing industries - yet! But that is where it will eventually lead.   #51   Jun 30, '16, 8:52 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz I don't want taxes raised because the government is not who is supposed to pay for these things. Jesus told US to care for the poor, not have Caesar (the government) do it. Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can't possibly get the job done alone. Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to "Caesar". __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #52   Jun 30, '16, 8:55 am Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Well, not exactly. He has advocated raising the top marginal rate to 90% or thereabouts, which is not the same as taxing the rich at a 90% rate on all their income. Not even close. Really, he's just advocating a return to the tax code of the Eisenhower years, which were pretty good years for this country. Guess that makes Eisenhower a socialist too. Edit: I see that Avdima beat me to it. Yeah, and in those years our nation had a monopoly on making just about everything and the world was buying. Japan had not yet ramped up it's post war industrial base and China resurgence was a long time off in the future. We were the top dog in the world - militarily and economically - we didn't owe anyone anything, while today we are a debtor nation with stagnant wages for the working man. One cannot compare those years with what is happening today.   #53   Jun 30, '16, 9:01 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,710 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can't possibly get the job done alone. Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to "Caesar". There are so many distortions in the healthcare industry, that I don't know how anybody could possibly know whether private charity could deal with care for the poor or not. Some distortions are caused by government (e.g., mandatory discounts for Medicaid and Medicare and shifting emphases on reimbursement) some are caused by industry (e.g., "well worker effect") some by insurers (provider discount agreements) and some by the industry itself (e.g. less than optimal utilization of NPs because of reimbursement differentials, overutilization of "computer diagnosis", "gold plating"). Some distortions are caused by combinations.   #54   Jun 30, '16, 9:09 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,710 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Adonia Yeah, and in those years our nation had a monopoly on making just about everything and the world was buying. Japan had not yet ramped up it's post war industrial base and China resurgence was a long time off in the future. We were the top dog in the world - militarily and economically - we didn't owe anyone anything, while today we are a debtor nation with stagnant wages for the working man. One cannot compare those years with what is happening today. A person might in some ways. Shortly after the war, the U.S. imported a lot of things marked "Made in Occupied Japan". Lots of them were toys, fireworks, etc; things that were not terribly well made, were very labor-intensive, and were dirt cheap. I recall seeing a toy car that was made of a Spam can. You could see the labeling on the inside of the car. Quality goods were largely made here, and they were very generously made, but pricey compared to comparable but shoddier goods now. So one thing that has happened is that we have turned to low labor cost sources for goods of lower quality and worse materials. I'm not sure we have gained a lot. I recall reading that Sweden is a somewhat difficult place to which to export because of its emphasis on "kvalitet" (quality). Yes, a sweater in Sweden is more expensive, but it's very well made, and made in Sweden. I'm not sure there is much advantage to the consumer in buying three sweaters from Bangladesh if the one Swedish sweater will outlast them all.   #55   Jun 30, '16, 10:56 am Adonia Banned   Join Date: November 6, 2005 Posts: 1,245 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can't possibly get the job done alone. Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to "Caesar". Unfortunately, the government role comes with a lot of strings - just ask the Little Sisters of the Poor. I think Jesus would have been totally against a government role, the idea that some bureaucrat has your best interests at heart is ridiculous. Secular governments support secular things - like funding groups such as Planned Parenthood - and Jesus would have been aghast at collaborating with such an evil.   #56   Jun 30, '16, 5:02 pm Little Sheep Regular Member   Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe I voted for Bernie. I would again. But I have to say I feel with each passing day he is becoming less relevant. He ran a terrific campaign. But the page has turned. Hillary Clinton received millions more votes and either she or Donald Trump is going to be President. On the issues alone, I would have been voting for Hillary Clinton over Trump regardless of what Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren did. But Sen Warren is making it very clear to Bernie supporters that Hillary Clinton is far better than Trump. That said, here are reasons why you can't compare Brexit with the upcoming US election. US voters will be considering a multitude of issues as well as Donald Trump's character and preparedness for the office he is seeking. Just the other day even the Senate leader from Trump's own party wouldn't say if he was qualified. Also in the US we have the Electoral College and then there is the demographics of the very diverse electorate. According to the CIA World Factbook, the British population was more than 87% white in 2011. Other estimates put the ratio at higher than 90%. Meanwhile, a Pew survey from earlier this year found that the U.S. electorate in 2016 will be the country's most racially and ethnically diverse ever. More than 30% of eligible voters will come from a racial or ethnic minority group. The white vote is expected to make up 69% of eligible voters, down from 71% in 2012. For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric, victory will likely have to come from securing a large portion of a diminishing slice of the electoral pie. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/politi...-donald-trump/ Bernie has not wound down his campaign with power and strength and that actually surprises me, Sy. Maybe he's just exhausted.   #57   Jul 1, '16, 8:03 am Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Adonia Unfortunately, the government role comes with a lot of strings - just ask the Little Sisters of the Poor. I think Jesus would have been totally against a government role, the idea that some bureaucrat has your best interests at heart is ridiculous. Secular governments support secular things - like funding groups such as Planned Parenthood - and Jesus would have been aghast at collaborating with such an evil. I understand the Catholic faithful believe differently but I don't know that for sure at all. What I do know is Jesus cared so much about the sick. So as far as I know, He might not have objected to uniform healthcare for all employed women. Some women do need contraceptives prescribed for medical conditions. And PP provides women healthcare services as well. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #58   Jul 1, '16, 4:47 pm SuperLuigi Forum Elder   Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,580 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe I voted for Bernie. I would again. But I have to say I feel with each passing day he is becoming less relevant. He ran a terrific campaign. But the page has turned. Hillary Clinton received millions more votes and either she or Donald Trump is going to be President. On the issues alone, I would have been voting for Hillary Clinton over Trump regardless of what Bernie or even Elizabeth Warren did. But Sen Warren is making it very clear to Bernie supporters that Hillary Clinton is far better than Trump. That said, here are reasons why you can't compare Brexit with the upcoming US election. US voters will be considering a multitude of issues as well as Donald Trump's character and preparedness for the office he is seeking. Just the other day even the Senate leader from Trump's own party wouldn't say if he was qualified. Also in the US we have the Electoral College and then there is the demographics of the very diverse electorate. According to the CIA World Factbook, the British population was more than 87% white in 2011. Other estimates put the ratio at higher than 90%. Meanwhile, a Pew survey from earlier this year found that the U.S. electorate in 2016 will be the country's most racially and ethnically diverse ever. More than 30% of eligible voters will come from a racial or ethnic minority group. The white vote is expected to make up 69% of eligible voters, down from 71% in 2012. For Trump, who has alienated large swaths of minority voters with his immigration rhetoric, victory will likely have to come from securing a large portion of a diminishing slice of the electoral pie. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/politi...-donald-trump/ Yes, yes. We know that some liberals believe that ethnic minorities will carry the water for them in this vision of demographic destiny even as their party fully embraces the culture of death. Yet in 2014 the GOP did very well even in deep blue states. Also, some polls show Trump drawing numbers of minorities that would shock some people. Ultimately, they don't want to live in a 3rd world banana republic either. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #59   Jul 1, '16, 4:52 pm SuperLuigi Forum Elder   Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,580 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: =Sy Noe;14009839]Individuals and faith based groups are certainly called to and can certainly do what they can to care for the poor. But the need is so great that I will never for a minute believe that Jesus would turn down a government role. With the needs of the population of the 21st century, and the costs of surgeries and the many other things those in need and the sick need, individuals alone can't possibly get the job done alone. Remember, Jesus and his Followers saw things holositically, not just based on initial appearance. Government roles are appealing to people because they are often quick and easy, even if it yields terrible fruits. Quote: Also see Matt 22:21 and Mk 12:17 in regard to "Caesar". As has been said before, I believe this means that in the end, "all things belong to God." It does mean the state gets to soak the rich and hard-working under the guise of "helping" people in order to get their own perks. To some extent, the operative word is scandal, and there is a passage in the Gospel about John the Baptist confronting the elites on this matter. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #60   Jul 1, '16, 4:54 pm SuperLuigi Forum Elder   Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,580 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Inisfallen Oh, please. We're all a little too quick to throw the word "socialism" around (Sen. Sanders is too, unfortunately). He's not advocating nationalizing industries, or the dictatorship of the proletariat, or anything like that. He is advocating a more progressive tax code, and single-payer national health insurance (not health care), and free or inexpensive higher education at public colleges and universities, and sensible regulation of the financial industry. All of which are things that are done routinely in every other developed nation in the world, and all things that make eminent sense, things that we desperately need. It would be more accurate to describe him as a social democrat than a socialist. None of these plans are financially feasible. The only reason why many other First World nations are afforded universal health care and free college is because everyone knows (even if they won't admit it) they are protected by the US military. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   Jul 1, '16, 6:33 pm Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,030 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by SuperLuigi Yes, yes. We know that some liberals believe that ethnic minorities will carry the water for them in this vision of demographic destiny even as their party fully embraces the culture of death. Yet in 2014 the GOP did very well even in deep blue states. Also, some polls show Trump drawing numbers of minorities that would shock some people. Ultimately, they don't want to live in a 3rd world banana republic either. 2014 was a midterm. Many people don't vote in those. Among black voters in this election, Trump is at 1% in this recent poll. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.2692639 And Hillary had a healthy 8 pt lead recently in FL. Clinton’s Florida lead is based on her popularity with non-whites (72 percent to 15 percent over Trump) and among voters who believe she’s “better prepared (60-31),” “more intelligent (53-33)” and has “higher moral standards (47-36),” Quinnipiac found. http://nypost.com/2016/06/21/hillary...-state-voters/ I know Republicans are hanging their caps on OH and PA. But without FL it will still be difficult. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #62   Jul 1, '16, 7:46 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders: Democrats Need to Wake Up Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe 2014 was a midterm. Many people don't vote in those. Among black voters in this election, Trump is at 1% in this recent poll. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.2692639 And Hillary had a healthy 8 pt lead recently in FL. Clinton’s Florida lead is based on her popularity with non-whites (72 percent to 15 percent over Trump) and among voters who believe she’s “better prepared (60-31),” “more intelligent (53-33)” and has “higher moral standards (47-36),” Quinnipiac found. http://nypost.com/2016/06/21/hillary...-state-voters/ I know Republicans are hanging their caps on OH and PA. But without FL it will still be difficult. Three reasons Hillary supporters shouldn't get too confident F B I