Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
1.) No third party candidate can win.
2.) Trump vs. Clinton is the worst Presidential Election selection this country has ever faced.
3.) Like him or not, I'll probably vote for Trump, if only because of the Supreme Court.
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May 11, '16, 11:53 am
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by boldlygo
1.) No third party candidate can win.
2.) Trump vs. Clinton is the worst Presidential Election selection this country has ever faced.
3.) Like him or not, I'll probably vote for Trump, if only because of the Supreme Court.
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The Supreme Court is the only real reason to vote for Trump--and
that is big enough. I can't imagine he'd make the same choices Hillary
would.
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May 11, '16, 11:56 am
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert in 99
He has been vocally pro-choice in the
past. He's supposedly (partially) pro-life now, but with his honesty
track record, I won't believe it without proof.
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Convert in 99 this is off topic but I saw in your signature you
asked us to pray for your husband to convert...I am in the same boat. I
pay everyday for his conversion! I will pray for your husband and I ask
you to pray for mine 
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May 11, '16, 12:00 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
Don't be so sure. I have the exact same opinion.
I can't vote for someone as vitriolic, divisive and dismissive of
Americans, our concerns and our neighbors and allies as Trump with such a
patchy record of running his own company into the ground multiple
times.
But on the other side I can't vote for someone as bought and paid for as
Clinton, not to mention grossly irresponsible with national security,
who may end up in FBI custody before it's all said and done.
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You took the words right out of my mouth. There used to be this
old daytime comedy called Green Acres back in the 70s. There was one
sane guy in this town, [Mr. Douglas] and everyone and everything else
was crazy. That is they way I feel sometimes. I think "why am I the only
person who see that these people are not right?" I felt the same way
about Obama. I was pretty amazed at George Bush's command of the English
language! 
Thanks for your post!
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May 11, '16, 12:06 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I will vote for Trump at this point if he ends up being the nominee.
Our country would be better shape in his hands than Hillary's.
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May 11, '16, 12:10 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I just had to share this
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May 11, '16, 12:39 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver927
Trump, because I think there is a chance
he will appoint someone decent to the Supreme Court. With Clinton or
Sanders I think that chance is zero.
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This.
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May 11, '16, 12:41 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Trump is the new Hitler. He is so badly detached from
reality he has yet to admit that his "thousands and thousands of Muslims
in New Jersey" never happened even though it's been proven not to have
occurred. Anyone that screwed up in the head and as racist, bigoted,
jingoistic, and misogynistic is nothing more than a embarrassing hazard
to the health and well being of the whole nation.
He quotes Mussolini and thinks that's okay. His speech patterns and
polemics are nearly identical to those of Hitler (watch anything on
Hitler on the history channel!) He speaks derisively of everyone except
the crowd he's talking to and even condones and encourages violence
against those who oppose and disagree with him. He is refusing to allow
his tax records to be opened for the election. (What is he hiding?) He
attacks his opponents and yet cries foul when they give as good as they
got. Double standard much?
Granted none of this years candidates are very good, but that man will
have us in a shooting war withing a month of taking office and if he is
so hard on Muslims then how long will it be before he comes down on us
Catholics because the Church routinely opposes the immorality and
injustice that the government promotes now.
C'mon people...vote against him.
__________________
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May 11, '16, 12:44 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
My state will surely go for Trump, which gives me the freedom to look
for somebody other than Trump or Clinton in an attempt to send a
message.
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May 11, '16, 12:49 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I dont know if this is a appropriate thread to put this out there, but...
Did you know that Clinton and Trump are both Christian?
Protestant, yes, but christian none the less. Though the same could be said about obama, but im not sure.
Could we pray that they can hear the voice of God and grow closer to him? Would that help or am I being silly again?
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May 11, '16, 12:49 pm
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Junior Member
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Rider
Trump is the new Hitler.
He is so badly detached from reality he has yet to admit that his
"thousands and thousands of Muslims in New Jersey" never happened even
though it's been proven not to have occurred. Anyone that screwed up in
the head and as racist, bigoted, jingoistic, and misogynistic is nothing
more than a embarrassing hazard to the health and well being of the
whole nation.
He quotes Mussolini and thinks that's okay. His speech patterns and
polemics are nearly identical to those of Hitler (watch anything on
Hitler on the history channel!) He speaks derisively of everyone except
the crowd he's talking to and even condones and encourages violence
against those who oppose and disagree with him. He is refusing to allow
his tax records to be opened for the election. (What is he hiding?) He
attacks his opponents and yet cries foul when they give as good as they
got. Double standard much?
Granted none of this years candidates are very good, but that man will
have us in a shooting war withing a month of taking office and if he is
so hard on Muslims then how long will it be before he comes down on us
Catholics because the Church routinely opposes the immorality and
injustice that the government promotes now.
C'mon people...vote against him.
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Are you referring to the violence started by leftists during his
rallies? The same ones supposedly wanting peace and justice for all?
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May 11, '16, 12:58 pm
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Banned
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Rider
Trump is the new Hitler.
He is so badly detached from reality he has yet to admit that his
"thousands and thousands of Muslims in New Jersey" never happened even
though it's been proven not to have occurred. Anyone that screwed up in
the head and as racist, bigoted, jingoistic, and misogynistic is nothing
more than a embarrassing hazard to the health and well being of the
whole nation.
He quotes Mussolini and thinks that's okay. His speech patterns and
polemics are nearly identical to those of Hitler (watch anything on
Hitler on the history channel!) He speaks derisively of everyone except
the crowd he's talking to and even condones and encourages violence
against those who oppose and disagree with him. He is refusing to allow
his tax records to be opened for the election. (What is he hiding?) He
attacks his opponents and yet cries foul when they give as good as they
got. Double standard much?
Granted none of this years candidates are very good, but that man will
have us in a shooting war withing a month of taking office and if he is
so hard on Muslims then how long will it be before he comes down on us
Catholics because the Church routinely opposes the immorality and
injustice that the government promotes now.
C'mon people...vote against him.
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C'mon yourself. Most foreign policy experts agree Hillary is more
hawkish than Trump or Sanders or Obama. People act as though a brash
personality equates to failed foreign intervention after failed foreign
intervention.
If you want to vote against Trump, go ahead and do so - plenty of
reasons, but if your alternative is to tell folks to vote for Hillary,
your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
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May 11, '16, 1:09 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Peterson
I am thinking 3rd Party presently. I am
very interested in the American Solidarity Party. I'll be keeping an eye
on who they come up with. Their platform hits a lot of marks for me.
Progressive and pro-life!
http://www.solidarity-party.org/ |
WOW, I like these guys!
Wish we had some politicians following this platform!
__________________
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May 11, '16, 1:13 pm
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Account Under Review
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Trump might be crazy like a fox. I doubt a
truly insane person would have accomplished all he has accomplished.
Sure, his utterances rankle with many, but he got billions of dollars of
free media exposure out of it, and still does.
If he had raised the same amount of money and put it into the kinds of
rather nasty ads Jeb Bush and his supporters put out, would it have
really been better if Bush, himself, "rose above it all", and didn't
claim to be as nasty as he really was?
Wait until we see what the Dems have to offer in their attack ads. I'll
wager they'll be so mean and so deceptive they'll make your toes curl,
and no "later clarification" either. Trump is just open about doing what
the others do while those others pretend they aren't.
Personally, I find that refreshing.
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Good point. I had not considered that, though I do wish he would
think before he speaks and reduce the amount of time he contradicts
himself.
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May 11, '16, 1:14 pm
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Account Under Review
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFoxtrotNW
I dont know if this is a appropriate thread to put this out there, but...
Did you know that Clinton and Trump are both Christian?
Protestant, yes, but christian none the less. Though the same could be said about obama, but im not sure.
Could we pray that they can hear the voice of God and grow closer to him? Would that help or am I being silly again?
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Not silly at all. 
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May 11, '16, 1:17 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic1954
It is disgusting that after all the
really good contenders we had in the beginning, Donald Trump is turning
out to be the best America has to offer as leader of the Free World. 
Mrs. Clinton, of course, will flush us the rest of the way down in her
first 6mos. I have voted for the third party candidate in the past and
regretted it, because it gave the election to the worst of the worst
running. This time, I am going to hold my nose, vote for The Donald and
wear my rosary beads out begging our Dear Lord to save America from
herself.  |
I'm with you. And what the folks who are going to vote third
party, I have to wonder just what they hope to accomplish by that. That
candidate can not be elected, and history has shown us that a vote like
that only helps the Dems. Perhaps they really prefer Hillary.
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May 11, '16, 1:40 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by esieffe
You took the words right out of my mouth.
There used to be this old daytime comedy called Green Acres back in the
70s. There was one sane guy in this town, [Mr. Douglas] and everyone
and everything else was crazy. That is they way I feel sometimes. I
think "why am I the only person who see that these people are not
right?"
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O/T, but I used to watch that show and get really frustrated because I empathized so with Oliver (Eddie Albert).
There were a couple of serious war heroes on that show, BTW - Eddie
Albert, who already had some movies under his belt and a Hollywood
contract and was too old to be drafted, enlisted at age 34 in the Navy
during WWII. He could have worked safely in the USO, but instead
volunteered to command a landing craft at the invasion of Tarawa. As
Japanese fire decimated the Marine attackers he dropped off on the shore
and left nearly a hundred wounded in the waist-deep water, he
repeatedly returned under heavy fire to pull wounded Marines to safety,
saving more than 40 marines from certain death. He earned the Bronze
Star. Before the war, and before his film career, Albert had toured
Mexico as a clown and high-wire artist with the Escalante Brothers
Circus, but secretly worked for U.S. Army intelligence, photographing
German U-boats in Mexican harbors
Alvy Moore, who played county farm agent Hank Kimball on the show (who
seemed unable to finish a sentence without contradicting himself), was a
Marine who fought at Iwo Jima.
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- Pope Francis
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May 11, '16, 1:58 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
I'm with you. And what the folks who are
going to vote third party, I have to wonder just what they hope to
accomplish by that. That candidate can not be elected, and history has
shown us that a vote like that only helps the Dems. Perhaps they really
prefer Hillary.
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There is no "hope to accomplish", I will vote exactly as my
Catholic teaching demands I do; No lying, pro-abortion candidates. If
the rest of the Christian "Sheeple" did likewise we would toss both
parties out on their ears.
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May 11, '16, 2:13 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki
I am in the same strange place. I will
probably vote for Trump but if it is clear that the electoral college
votes for Texas are not in play, I may vote third party to . Austin
Peterson (L) is interesting. He's a Libertarian in the Ron Paul,
pro-life, mold.
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Beside the fact the the official Libertarian Party Platform is for
government to have nothing to do with abortion decisions, here is what
Austin Peterson has on his official website:
Encourage a culture of life, and adoption, and educate
Americans about the “consistent pro-life ethic,” which also means
abolishing the death penalty.
This is truly Libertarian, but it is not exactly forcibly anti-abortion.
It looks like abortion would be "discouraged" through education and
adoption. This is quite different from Ron Paul, who is actually
anti-abortion, and no longer part of the Libertarian Party. So I wonder
if seeing Peterson as a kind of Ron Paul isn't a bit of wishful
thinking? Do you have any recent quotes by Peterson that would indicate
he would actually use the force of law to oppose abortion, in opposition
to his own party's platform?
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May 11, '16, 2:16 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFoxtrotNW
I dont know if this is a appropriate thread to put this out there, but...
Did you know that Clinton and Trump are both Christian?
Protestant, yes, but christian none the less. Though the same could be said about obama, but im not sure.
Could we pray that they can hear the voice of God and grow closer to him? Would that help or am I being silly again?
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Seven years on and statements like this are still being made. 
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May 11, '16, 2:22 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman
My state will surely go for Trump, which
gives me the freedom to look for somebody other than Trump or Clinton in
an attempt to send a message.
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I'm in the same boat. My state is going Clinton for sure (or
Sanders if he's the Democrat). So I'm free to find another candidate to
vote for as a protest. Just not sure if there's any protest candidates
worth voting for either.
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May 11, '16, 2:29 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
The Supreme Court is the only real reason
to vote for Trump--and that is big enough. I can't imagine he'd make
the same choices Hillary would.
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I can imagine he'd make choices just as bad. Trump may be worse
from a Supreme Court nominee standpoint. Trump is both a fiscal and
social liberal. It stands to reason that he would appoint similar
justices that fits his fiscal and socially liberal agenda.
A liberal justice appointed by Clinton would more likely be blocked by
the Republicans than a liberal justice appointed by Trump.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 11, '16, 2:48 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
I'm with you. And what the folks who are
going to vote third party, I have to wonder just what they hope to
accomplish by that. That candidate can not be elected, and history has
shown us that a vote like that only helps the Dems. Perhaps they really
prefer Hillary.
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Nope. We just dislike BOTH Hillary and Trump! We will not give either our vote no matter what!
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May 11, '16, 2:50 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by baliano
There is no "hope to accomplish", I will
vote exactly as my Catholic teaching demands I do; No lying,
pro-abortion candidates. If the rest of the Christian "Sheeple" did
likewise we would toss both parties out on their ears.
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I love your word "sheeple" 
I agree with you!
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May 11, '16, 2:50 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
I can imagine he'd make choices just as
bad. Trump may be worse from a Supreme Court nominee standpoint. Trump
is both a fiscal and social liberal. It stands to reason that he would
appoint similar justices that fits his fiscal and socially liberal
agenda.
A liberal justice appointed by Clinton would more likely be blocked by
the Republicans than a liberal justice appointed by Trump.
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You might be correct, though Trump says he will appoint conservative judges.
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May 11, '16, 2:52 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: April 20, 2007
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimcav
I can see why, I've never seen this thing you call a "Catholic, Pro Life, Socialist"...   |
Actually you have!
Pope Francis! 
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May 11, '16, 2:53 pm
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Veteran Member
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by baliano
There is no "hope to accomplish", I will
vote exactly as my Catholic teaching demands I do; No lying,
pro-abortion candidates. If the rest of the Christian "Sheeple" did
likewise we would toss both parties out on their ears.
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You know, it strikes me that we should of how the Christians lived
during the first few centuries in Rome. They lived among Pagans and
they endured living in a culture that was not unlike our own. No matter
who wins, the nation will continue its drive toward a deepening
Paganism...
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May 11, '16, 3:04 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
You might be correct, though Trump says he will appoint conservative judges.
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He has said a lot of things that he later did a 180 on. I need
more from him before I will commit. The early prognosis after he sealed
the nomination is not promising.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 11, '16, 3:09 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
He has said a lot of things that he later
did a 180 on. I need more from him before I will commit. The early
prognosis after he sealed the nomination is not promising.
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I agree and I think that's why Ryan cannot yet commit.
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May 11, '16, 4:18 pm
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Posts: 15,596
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
Beside the fact the the official
Libertarian Party Platform is for government to have nothing to do with
abortion decisions, here is what Austin Peterson has on his official
website:
Encourage a culture of life, and adoption, and educate
Americans about the “consistent pro-life ethic,” which also means
abolishing the death penalty.
This is truly Libertarian, but it is not exactly forcibly anti-abortion.
It looks like abortion would be "discouraged" through education and
adoption. This is quite different from Ron Paul, who is actually
anti-abortion, and no longer part of the Libertarian Party. So I wonder
if seeing Peterson as a kind of Ron Paul isn't a bit of wishful
thinking? Do you have any recent quotes by Peterson that would
indicate he would actually use the force of law to oppose abortion, in
opposition to his own party's platform? |
No, I don't and I don't think that would be consistent with the
Libertarian party "way". Hey, this is all new to me. I am just trying to
work out what to do with Trump as the nominee and Hillary (or Sanders)
being unthinkable. Ron Paul was my Congressman here in Texas, so it
probably IS wishful thinking to try to see some of his values in others.
__________________
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recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to
marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must
refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or
application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from
material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area,
everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection." CDF
"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
The picture in my avatar is not a symbol against anyone who may
experience homosexuality - only against using the symbol God gave to
Noah to persecute Christians, promote pornography and pervert the
institution of marriage.
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May 11, '16, 4:26 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
From all the posts I have read, it appears you all know each of the candidates personally.
Until this election I didn't really know anything about how a person is
elected president, except to vote at the general election, only found
out that no ones vote counts, only the delegates. Than I happened to
find out that the owner of FOX is actually a Democrat or sometimes he
votes Republican, now I understand the hatred FOX now is promoting. He
backed Rubio at first and now Trump. Before he backed Hillary last time
she ran. He also has given financial backing to both parties.
I wish people would hold judgment until the person has proven they are
not what they claim. We must remember that only a handful of Republican
Senators and Congressmen who ran in their last election promised to stop
Obama Care, reduce the budget etc. and it appears they all lied and
went right along with Obama. We can't make judgments until we actually
see what the new President does.
Also I found it a little odd that some posters say they are converts,
however, have judged Trump who says he has changed his view of abortion,
which to me is a conversion, think we should accept their word that
they have really converted, but not Trumps. Of course I do accept their
word, but feel we shouldn't doubt Trump's word, we all evolve, just as I
have now that I understand the political game and that is what I call
it.
Lets just trust that America will still be blessed by God although the
country has turned its back on Him and He will put in place the best
candidate to be out President.
God Bless
Bernadette
May 19, '16, 6:35 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I'm going to vote for Trump because I don't like Hillary Clinton's (and the Democratic Party in general) position on Abortion.
Plus there is a United States Supreme Court vacancy that needs to be filled.
__________________
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--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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May 19, '16, 10:13 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I feel dejected. It seems like neither the Democrats nor the Republicans really align with Catholic moral teaching.
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May 20, '16, 6:13 am
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
That's not what I said is it?
It's a small small issue anyway but people love to point it out. Like I
stated before, I voted for the original waterboarding administration. So
did lots of people. Do I agree as a Catholic with torture. No. But on
one hand we have enemies who wish to kill us and on the other the
torture of babies on the other side of a two sided election.
I know you wish to debate this. But it is hardly fair given your reluctance to offer your personal choices here....
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I don't remember Bush campaigning about how we needed to
waterboard and go beyond waterboarding in 2000, or 2004. I know McCain
was against it.
Our choice this election is candidate 1 who is pro-choice and holds
morally wrong opinions on many issues, and candidate 2 who is also
pro-choice and holds morally wrong opinions on many issues.
Quote:
Look, Planned Parenthood has done very good work for many, many — for
millions of women,” Trump said in a news conference Tuesday night. “And
I’ll say it, and I know a lot of the so-called conservatives, they say
that’s really … cause I’m a conservative, but I’m a common-sense
conservative.”
Trump said he would not fund Planned Parenthood “as long as you have the
abortion going on,” but noted the “millions of people — and I’ve had
thousands of letters from women — that have been helped.”
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Do pro-life people say things like that? Do women in the thousands
really write Donald Trump about their wonderful experiences at PP?
Why, why, why can't it be categorically said, "No funding, they make a profit every year and don't need funding"
I'm supposed to believe this fellow is pro-life?
Sorry. I can't do it.
I didn't want him as a candidate.
adding this link to an article, I think very good:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standin...my-advice.html
__________________
Jesus, protect and save the unborn.
The Word became flesh, He lived among us, and we
saw His glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the
Father, full of grace and truth.
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May 20, '16, 7:37 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
I don't remember Bush campaigning about
how we needed to waterboard and go beyond waterboarding in 2000, or
2004. I know McCain was against it.
Our choice this election is candidate 1 who is pro-choice and holds
morally wrong opinions on many issues, and candidate 2 who is also
pro-choice and holds morally wrong opinions on many issues.
Do pro-life people say things like that? Do women in the thousands
really write Donald Trump about their wonderful experiences at PP?
Why, why, why can't it be categorically said, "No funding, they make a profit every year and don't need funding"
I'm supposed to believe this fellow is pro-life?
Sorry. I can't do it.
I didn't want him as a candidate.
adding this link to an article, I think very good:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standin...my-advice.html |
Doesn't the bible exhort us to "...put not your faith in
princes..."? It's foolish to expect politicians to be on all fours with
my particular beliefs. They will never be.
In the upcoming election, there is a clear choice, in my opinion. Here's
Trump who opposes abortion except for the three exceptions of rape,
incest and life of the mother. He also has named some excellent
candidates for the Supreme Court.
On the other hand, there's Hillary Clinton who supports abortion on
demand, "changing my religion", and who will unquestionably appoint
pro-abortion justices to the Supreme Court, or worse. Remember that her
husband appointed Ginzburg who believes twelve year olds should be able
legally to consent to sex. Her record includes a war against Libya,
handing over countries to terrorists, gun running, handing billions of
dollars to Iran and selling political influence to the likes of Russia,
Saudi Arabia and Qatar, among others.
And some think there's nothing to choose between them?
Do I find myself voting "against" candidates more than "for" them? Yes I
do. If I don't oppose the evil of a Hillary Clinton, then I'm
responsible for the consequences of that failure.
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May 20, '16, 7:41 am
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Forum Elder
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Posts: 36,710
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex H
I feel dejected. It seems like neither the Democrats nor the Republicans really align with Catholic moral teaching.
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Of course not. No political party ever does. But some are more
against Catholic moral teaching than others. When Obama persecutes the
Little Sisters of the Poor because they don't want to be instrumental in
providing contraceptives and abortifacients for their workers and
themselves, and when Hillary Clinton tells us we'll need to "change our
religious beliefs" to fit her agenda on abortion, then it's pretty clear
one ought to be extremely dejected if Clinton wins this election if one
does not vote against her and for her only serious adversary.
Trump wasn't my first choice. He was my fourth choice. But I would vote for a fifth or sixth in order to defeat Hillary Clinton.
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May 20, '16, 8:51 am
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Posts: 8,025
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Please tell us what your interpretation
of what Bishop Kincanis's interview is and where such an interpretation
is backed up by any other member of the Magestrium. I dont see where he
has contradicted any of the quotes and documents we have provided on
this issue.
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I don't have an interpretation. I have his own words and Bishop
Kicanas is a member of the magesterium as much as the member(s) that you
quote. Here again are his own words:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm
So since you see no contradiction, then I will just assume you agree
with the bishop when he says voting decisions are never easy and the
decision is not a slam dunk. That the voter must weigh issues (plural)
as well as consider the character of the candidate and what one thinks a
candidate can actually do to affect society. And that you agree with
Bishop Kicanas when he said as well that he is sure there isn't a
consensus among the bishops on whether a pro-choice vote amounts to
formal cooperation.
I'm a voter. I've done these things. Weighed the many issues. Considered
character and the potential effects on society. And I personally have
concluded I am not at all impressed with having a character with the
temperament and personality of a Donald Trump, the presumptive
Republican nominee, as Commander in Chief. I also don't think a 3rd
party candidate can affect society as much since they are not going to
be elected President.
I respect everyone's right to vote according to their own informed minds
and consciences and to even vote for someone who has no chance of being
President or not voting at all.
I just personally though am now going to choose between one of those 2
candidates actually having a chance to be our next President. Because I
once voted 3rd party in a major statewide executive branch race and of
the 2 major candidates, the one I least wanted, ended up winning by just
a mere percentage point. 3% of us voted 3rd party enough to have
possibly swung the election the other way. So after that, I myself just
can't bring myself to risk being part of Donald Trump moving from his
Manhattan Penthouse to the White House. I know my conscience could not
live with myself if I did. And to my mind, voting for him or 3rd party
or not voting would do just that. But again, I respect those who see it
differently and who plan to vote 3rd party or not at all.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 9:03 am
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Veteran Member
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Posts: 9,000
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
...I once voted 3rd party in a major
statewide executive branch race and of the 2 major candidates, the one I
least wanted, ended up winning by just a mere percentage point.....
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The only time (in my mind) that one should vote 3rd party rather
than the two major candidates is if you see little to no difference
between the two majors.
I see very little difference between the two myself as neither seems
able to tell the truth consistently....and I'm not talking 'typical
politically motivated' liars. Both of the majors have serious
truth-speak problems.
It really does boil down to the devil you know vs. the devil you don't know. (figuratively speaking of course - I hope  ).
The one I know (Clinton), I can't vote for in good conscience given her
known demonic stances. The one I don't know (Trump) scares me based (in
part) on the seemingly demonic rhetoric he uses. I get the whole
difficult choice thing.
The one I don't know has a slight edge to 3rd party for me at this point
in the process. May God save us from disaster this election cycle. I
hope it's not too late for the nation.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 20, '16, 9:20 am
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Forum Elder
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Posts: 36,710
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
I don't have an interpretation. I have
his own words and Bishop Kicanas is a member of the magesterium as much
as the member(s) that you quote. Here again are his own words:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm
So since you see no contradiction, then I will just assume you agree
with the bishop when he says voting decisions are never easy and the
decision is not a slam dunk. That the voter must weigh issues (plural)
as well as consider the character of the candidate and what one thinks a
candidate can actually do to affect society. And that you agree with
Bishop Kicanas when he said as well that he is sure there isn't a
consensus among the bishops on whether a pro-choice vote amounts to
formal cooperation.
I'm a voter. I've done these things. Weighed the many issues. Considered
character and the potential effects on society. And I personally have
concluded I am not at all impressed with having a character with the
temperament and personality of a Donald Trump, the presumptive
Republican nominee, as Commander in Chief. I also don't think a 3rd
party candidate can affect society as much since they are not going to
be elected President.
I respect everyone's right to vote according to their own informed minds
and consciences and to even vote for someone who has no chance of being
President or not voting at all.
I just personally though am now going to choose between one of those 2
candidates actually having a chance to be our next President. Because I
once voted 3rd party in a major statewide executive branch race and of
the 2 major candidates, the one I least wanted, ended up winning by just
a mere percentage point. 3% of us voted 3rd party enough to have
possibly swung the election the other way. So after that, I myself just
can't bring myself to risk being part of Donald Trump moving from his
Manhattan Penthouse to the White House. I know my conscience could not
live with myself if I did. And to my mind, voting for him or 3rd party
or not voting would do just that. But again, I respect those who see it
differently and who plan to vote 3rd party or not at all. |
Some people support Hillary Clinton and we knew that a long time ago.
You have given us quotes from the USCCB that do not support your
position that Catholics can pick and choose which moral choices they
wish to make; an attitude essential to voting for Hillary Clinton. The
snippet from Bp. Kicanas doesn't support it either, it's just limited by
the scope of the questions he's asked.
It's not supported by the Popes, or any bishop. Quite the contrary. And
there should be no surprise to that, because that position is the heart
and soul of moral relativism; something many sects accept, but which the
Catholic Church vehemently does not.
The Church's actual position is that abortion is an intrinsic and grave
evil; that we cannot support candidates who promote it UNLESS the
opposing candidate promotes an equally grave and intrinsic evil or a
greater one.
Nothing could be more clear. Trump proposes banning abortion except in
the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. Not good because the
Church teaches those exceptions are wrong, and we should regard them as
wrong. But Hillary Clinton promotes abortion on demand; that is,
abortion in all cases. Additionally, Trump proposes prolife Supreme
Court justices while Hillary Clinton proposes pro-abortion justices.
Ultimately, the Supreme Court that long ago imposed abortion on demand
on the populace is the only power that can remove it.
If one's conscience tells one that he may support the greater evil for
the sake of a lesser one, then if his particular religion tells him
that's how conscience is properly formed, then he ought to follow his
own religion if he thinks it's the church founded by Christ. But it's
not the way a Catholic should form his conscience. Not at all.
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May 20, '16, 9:38 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: March 30, 2010
Posts: 26,098
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Hillary pretending to be more responsible with her finger on the nuclear
button after 1-million a year of the innocent isn't much of an
argument, thats 4X the amount of Japan and yearly. Further after her
handling of national security with a private server, I cant see where
the illusion of trust favors Hillary to any degree in fact highest
unfavorable rating and due to trust. She's a deeply flawed person who we
should keep out of the white house with her human rights record. She's
no friend of the human race.
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May 20, '16, 9:53 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: May 23, 2004
Posts: 28,254
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Never Hillary.
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May 20, '16, 9:57 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylteralmaldo
The only time (in my mind) that one
should vote 3rd party rather than the two major candidates is if you see
little to no difference between the two majors.
I see very little difference between the two myself as neither seems
able to tell the truth consistently....and I'm not talking 'typical
politically motivated' liars. Both of the majors have serious
truth-speak problems.
It really does boil down to the devil you know vs. the devil you don't know. (figuratively speaking of course - I hope ).
The one I know (Clinton), I can't vote for in good conscience given her
known demonic stances. The one I don't know (Trump) scares me based (in
part) on the seemingly demonic rhetoric he uses. I get the whole
difficult choice thing.
The one I don't know has a slight edge to 3rd party for me at this point
in the process. May God save us from disaster this election cycle. I
hope it's not too late for the nation. |
I understand. I don't know about Trump but as for myself, I do see
differences between the 2 parties today on many issues. Including but
not limited to healthcare for the sick, economic issues and the growing
income disparity between rich and poor and middle class, climate change
and it's affects on God's environment, guns and others.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 10:07 am
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 9,000
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
I understand. I don't know about Trump
but as for myself, I do see differences between the 2 parties today on
many issues. Including but not limited to healthcare for the sick,
economic issues and the growing income disparity between rich and poor
and middle class, climate change and it's affects on God's environment,
guns and others.
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Unfortunately, Clinton has proven she doesn't really care about the issues you detail here.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Trump does either - he's just
unproven (and thus has a slight edge for me this election cycle - so
far).
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 20, '16, 10:07 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Some people support Hillary Clinton and we knew that a long time ago.
You have given us quotes from the USCCB that do not support your
position that Catholics can pick and choose which moral choices they
wish to make; an attitude essential to voting for Hillary Clinton. The
snippet from Bp. Kicanas doesn't support it either, it's just limited by
the scope of the questions he's asked.
It's not supported by the Popes, or any bishop. Quite the contrary. And
there should be no surprise to that, because that position is the heart
and soul of moral relativism; something many sects accept, but which the
Catholic Church vehemently does not.
The Church's actual position is that abortion is an intrinsic and grave
evil; that we cannot support candidates who promote it UNLESS the
opposing candidate promotes an equally grave and intrinsic evil or a
greater one.
Nothing could be more clear. Trump proposes banning abortion except in
the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. Not good because the
Church teaches those exceptions are wrong, and we should regard them as
wrong. But Hillary Clinton promotes abortion on demand; that is,
abortion in all cases. Additionally, Trump proposes prolife Supreme
Court justices while Hillary Clinton proposes pro-abortion justices.
Ultimately, the Supreme Court that long ago imposed abortion on demand
on the populace is the only power that can remove it.
If one's conscience tells one that he may support the greater evil for
the sake of a lesser one, then if his particular religion tells him
that's how conscience is properly formed, then he ought to follow his
own religion if he thinks it's the church founded by Christ. But it's
not the way a Catholic should form his conscience. Not at all.
|
If you're referring to me, actually it couldn't have been that
long because I voted for Bernie Sanders. But anyway if such an
interpretation of Catholic teaching in regard to voting is indeed the
way you and a majority of others here describe it, then it's good I no
longer practice because I will have lost faith in such an authority on
earth. As I don't believe for a minute that Jesus wants me to vote
solely on abortion. And ignore a multitiude of other issues and the
character and temperament of a candidate.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 10:56 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
If you're referring to me, actually it
couldn't have been that long because I voted for Bernie Sanders. But
anyway if such an interpretation of Catholic teaching in regard to
voting is indeed the way you and a majority of others here describe it,
then it's good I no longer practice because I will have lost faith in
such an authority on earth. As I don't believe for a minute that Jesus
wants me to vote solely on abortion. And ignore a multitiude of other
issues and the character and temperament of a candidate.
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Being reasonably cognizant of forum rules, I try to avoid directly
addressing any poster other than in responding to something posed
directly to me. Best to speak generally regarding most things.
But let's think about this for a moment. Whatever reasons you have for
not practicing Catholicism are your own, and I am making no inquiry into
them. But let's say, for example, that Hillary Clinton proposed
euthanizing all Americans on their 65th birthday because the Medicare
and Social Security systems are hopelessly insolvent, which they are. If
she did that, you would not say "..I don't believe for a minute that
Jesus wants me to vote solely on killing all 65-year-olds.." You would
never even question that any issue is equally grave or as intrinsically
evil as the euthanasia proposal and wouldn't dream of supporting that
candidate because of the imagined "character" or temperament of the
opponent. You would instantly reject Hillary Clinton on that basis alone
and vote for her opponent even if you didn't like his "character and
temperament". Moreover, you would be appalled that any candidate would
ever even propose such a thing.
In Catholic teaching, the unborn are to be regarded as human beings, the
same as are the 65-year-olds. Now, some belief systems do not accept
that. Some, in addition to Catholics, do accept it. Christian protestant
Fundamentalists largely do too.
It is only because of that rejection of the belief that the unborn are
human beings that keeps far more people from recoiling in horror from
Hillary Clinton than do. Same with Bernie Sanders, who is every bit as
pro-abortion as Clinton is.
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May 20, '16, 11:27 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I just saw this and was astonished by
it. Clinton is telling Californians that their votes in the California
primary won't matter because she has already won the nomination. Might
be true, but what an incredibly foolish thing to say to voters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-a...tml?yptr=yahoo
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May 20, '16, 11:32 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
I find this particular presidential choice very disappointing.
I, have voted since 1988. This will be the first time I'm voting third party.
I am also considering becoming a registered Independent, and not a Republican.
I was a Republican for life issues. The Republicans want Trump? I don't
think the life issues mattered much. There were candidates who actually
were prolife with prolife backgrounds.
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I suspect that the Republican party will loose a significant
number of members this year, especially among the pro-life crowd. You
simply do not relegate a top priority to a secondary check box without
consequences.
Quote:
| Our choice this election is candidate 1 who is pro-choice and holds
morally wrong opinions on many issues, and candidate 2 who is also
pro-choice and holds morally wrong opinions on many issues.
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One of the two agreed to say some pro-life things this year, after
his pollsters told him he should. Have you actually heard him talk
about this issue. It is so funny. You can hear the reluctance in his
voice, as opposed to his enthusiasm when discussing Mexicans or Muslims.
PS - While this is not about your post, I would like to mention, lest we
forget, Hillary Clinton is not mentioned in any Church teaching. The
idea that voting for her is contrary to Catholic doctrine is always an
opinion that requires at lease some predicating premise, also not found
in Catholic doctrine. Only one Bishop has said there are no
circumstances under which someone like her could receive a Catholic
vote, in contradiction to those bishops that assembled Faithful
Citizenship, btw. The Catholic position for voting for her is painfully
thin, due to her grave evil, but not impossible.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
 Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 11:35 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Being reasonably cognizant of forum
rules, I try to avoid directly addressing any poster other than in
responding to something posed directly to me. Best to speak generally
regarding most things.
But let's think about this for a moment. Whatever reasons you have for
not practicing Catholicism are your own, and I am making no inquiry into
them. But let's say, for example, that Hillary Clinton proposed
euthanizing all Americans on their 65th birthday because the Medicare
and Social Security systems are hopelessly insolvent, which they are. If
she did that, you would not say "..I don't believe for a minute that
Jesus wants me to vote solely on killing all 65-year-olds.." You would
never even question that any issue is equally grave or as intrinsically
evil as the euthanasia proposal and wouldn't dream of supporting that
candidate because of the imagined "character" or temperament of the
opponent. You would instantly reject Hillary Clinton on that basis alone
and vote for her opponent even if you didn't like his "character and
temperament". Moreover, you would be appalled that any candidate would
ever even propose such a thing.
In Catholic teaching, the unborn are to be regarded as human beings, the
same as are the 65-year-olds. Now, some belief systems do not accept
that. Some, in addition to Catholics, do accept it. Christian protestant
Fundamentalists largely do too.
It is only because of that rejection of the belief that the unborn are
human beings that keeps far more people from recoiling in horror from
Hillary Clinton than do. Same with Bernie Sanders, who is every bit as
pro-abortion as Clinton is.
|
Well although I wouldn't agree that the solvency of Social
Security is hopeless, we can at least agree that indeed there is not a
consensus among faiths, including among Christians, on abortion, on
zygotes, embryos, and fetuses, on matters such as ensoulment and on the
potential development of a human person, on personhood rights and
women's reproductive rights. Not nearly to the extent that there is on
65 yr olds. Not even close and with no other issue even remotely
comparing. For some that might even be all the more reason under civil
law to respect a woman's right to choose as theirs and hers religious
freedom dictates.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 11:42 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Maybe this is a bit off topic, but I just
saw this and was astonished by it. Clinton is telling Californians that
their votes in the California primary won't matter because she has
already won the nomination. Might be true, but what an incredibly
foolish thing to say to voters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-a...tml?yptr=yahoo |
I'm a Bernie supporter. He has done phenomenally well. Far better
than I even expected. I think probably better than even he thought
possible. But she has won over 3 million more votes than Bernie. She is
going to be the nominee. 
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ote_count.html
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 11:45 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
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Yes, I know that.
What amazes me isn't that. It's that she would tell voters in California
that their voting in their primary will be pointless because she has it
won.
True or not, it's arrogant and offensive.
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May 20, '16, 11:57 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: April 20, 2007
Posts: 8,587
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
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May 20, '16, 11:58 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
Well although I wouldn't agree that the
solvency of Social Security is hopeless, we can at least agree that
indeed there is not a consensus among faiths, including among
Christians, on abortion, on zygotes, embryos, and fetuses, on matters
such as ensoulment and on the potential development of a human person,
on personhood rights and women's reproductive rights. Not nearly to the
extent that there is on 65 yr olds. Not even close and with no other
issue even remotely comparing. For some that might even be all the more
reason under civil law to respect a woman's right to choose as theirs
and hers religious freedom dictates.
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I don't think anybody disagrees that SS is insolvent and that
without some kind of major fix it will hit the wall. But that wasn't my
point anyway.
You apparently agree with me that some churches do not regard the unborn
as human persons. That being the case, some of them would not consider
abortion an intrinsic evil. Unfortunate, maybe, but not evil.
You seem agree with me that the Catholic Church does so regard them and
that it regards abortion, therefore, as intrinsically evil.
That has been my point all along. It may not be contrary to some
Christian sect or other to think abortion is just "one of many" issues
like apparent temperament of a candidate. But in Catholicism, it can't
be thought of in that way.
Elective abortion, in Catholicism, is an intrinsic evil; something
that's gravely evil all the time and every time because it is the
willful taking of an innocent human life, just like shooting all elderly
would be. One must oppose a candidate who espouses it unless his/her
opponent espouses an equal or greater evil. Hard to find a evil greater
than killing a million human beings annually, and certainly there is
none in this election.
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May 20, '16, 12:01 pm
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Senior Member
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
Yes, I know that.
What amazes me isn't that. It's that she would tell voters in California
that their voting in their primary will be pointless because she has it
won.
True or not, it's arrogant and offensive.
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I simply find it truthful and honest. I've even heard Clinton
people saying it is fine for Senator Sanders to remain in the race still
and I imagine those Californians who wish to still vote for him, will,
as will those who wish to support Hillary, will do so. But at the same
time it is time for Bernie supporters, I believe, to accept that we ran a
good race. Be proud of Bernie and what he stands for. But beyond the
time to accept that Hillary has won and that as she says, we have far
more that unites us against the Republicans than divides us. And take
Bernie's cue as well and heed his words that he actually has a very
steep climb of any hope to surpass SOS Clinton in even pledged
delegates. And like I said she has received over 3 million more votes.
And take the cue from Senator Sanders that as he repeatedly has said, he
will do everything he can to keep someone like Donald Trump from ever
becoming President of the United States.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 12:07 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert in 99
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I'm really not all that shocked on this website. Just because I've
found posters here lean heavily Republican no matter who it is with the
R after his name. And not only on social issues but other issues as
well.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 12:14 pm
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Forum Master
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert in 99
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Me too. To me I'm surprised it's that high. I'd say for a religious forum this one leans left politically.
Actually with Romney being so #nevertrump. And Glenn freaking out I
wonder what the Mormon position is on Mormon forums( if they exist)....
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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May 20, '16, 12:32 pm
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Senior Member
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
I don't think anybody disagrees that SS
is insolvent and that without some kind of major fix it will hit the
wall. But that wasn't my point anyway.
You apparently agree with me that some churches do not regard the unborn
as human persons. That being the case, some of them would not consider
abortion an intrinsic evil. Unfortunate, maybe, but not evil.
You seem agree with me that the Catholic Church does so regard them and
that it regards abortion, therefore, as intrinsically evil.
That has been my point all along. It may not be contrary to some
Christian sect or other to think abortion is just "one of many" issues
like apparent temperament of a candidate. But in Catholicism, it can't
be thought of in that way.
Elective abortion, in Catholicism, is an intrinsic evil; something
that's gravely evil all the time and every time because it is the
willful taking of an innocent human life, just like shooting all elderly
would be. One must oppose a candidate who espouses it unless his/her
opponent espouses an equal or greater evil. Hard to find a evil greater
than killing a million human beings annually, and certainly there is
none in this election.
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Yes Catholicism has things spelled out in black and white and I
know it is a source of great peace and comfort for many in their faith
walks. And then there are other believers who may prefer some gray and
an open lid to the box along their routes when it comes to understanding
God and on matters of faith and morals. We're all striving for the same
ultimate destination though.
Catholicism actually has though a host of intrinsic evils on the list
beyond the couple of favorites frequently discussed on CAF.
Torture and racism, targeting noncombatants in acts of war, treating
workers as a mere means to an end, subjecting workers to inhumane living
conditions. treating the poor as disposable are all examples of some of
the others included.
But it's all in the much debated bishops' citizenship guide. But then
the more I see in the very long bishops' guide, the greater
understanding I have as to why Bishop Kicanas may have said voting
decisions are never easy and it is not a slam dunk. Even the Pope has
said he doesn't understand counting non negotiables on fingers. And as
I've heard Cardinal Wuerl say, there is a whole package to the Catholic
faith.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 12:41 pm
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Senior Member
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Posts: 8,025
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Me too. To me I'm surprised it's that high. I'd say for a religious forum this one leans left politically.
Actually with Romney being so #nevertrump. And Glenn freaking out I
wonder what the Mormon position is on Mormon forums( if they exist)....
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Really? You actually think CAF leans left? Do a search and see who
won political polls on CAF 4 yrs ago. Primary polls and then for the
general. I haven't gone back before that but I wouldn't expect the
results would be much different. More likely the trend in the generals
would have been Bush over Kerry for instance. And I only need to see all
the negativity towards the Clintons and Obamas and John Kerry and Joe
Biden and Nancy Pelosi to know where the majority of posters on this
forum lean politically. And I certainly don't find it leaning left.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 12:49 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,160
Religion: Still Catholic......
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
Really? You actually think CAF leans
left? Do a search and see who won political polls on CAF 4 yrs ago. Hint
: Maybe you know if you were here. But his last name started with an
"R" and he also had an "R" next to his name. I haven't gone back before
that but I wouldn't expect the results would be much different. More
likely the trend would have been Bush over Kerry for instance. And I
only need to see all the negativity towards the Clintons and Obamas and
John Kerry and Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi to know where the majority of
posters on this forum lean politically. And I certainly don't find it
leaning left.
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I think for a religious forum of a religion that would not align
itself with the "left" of Americas politics that yes, caf is left of
other religious forums. Not saying it isn't on the right end of the
spectrum. Just that in comparison there seems to be a lot more
expression of liberal ideas here than in other forums. Religiously and
politically.
Over the last few years ss"m" has been debated quite a lot on this forum
where there should not really be long threads about such a closed
issue. Start s thread on a leftist issue and you will get quite a lot of
support. I've also noticed far left posters stick around longer than
far right posters. Not that there are many of either though.
It's like saying Hannity is left of beck who is left of savage..... It's
all true, and they are all on the right. Caf is the Hannity of the
religious forum world.....
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
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May 20, '16, 12:51 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Defending Trump "supporters" (quotes intentional)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Convert in 99
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I understand the reaction. Let me put this in perspective. If we
go back to February, March and even April. Donald Trump had very few
supporters here, far less than the general population. Most Catholics
here are conservative, true, but they are more pro-life than
conservative. A totally solid pro-life liberal would likely change the
landscape here, have this same people holding their nose for Trump,
holding their nose a voting for that social liberal. As Catholics, we
should vote for the poor and innocent, not what best suits our bank
account. Most of the people do this.
The only reason Trump is receiving so much support now is, quite frankly, Hillary Clinton. If Trump is is a triple ,
then Clinton should rate four, for her consistent and unwavering
support and promotion of abortion. This is such a serious evil, worse
than slavery and on par with genocide, that her position on it is not
only morally indefensible, it makes it very difficult to justify voting
for her. No other candidate running but Trump would have even made her
worthy of consideration, in my opinion.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 12:55 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 15, 2007
Posts: 6,724
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Me too. To me I'm surprised it's that high. I'd say for a religious forum this one leans left politically.
Actually with Romney being so #nevertrump. And Glenn freaking out I
wonder what the Mormon position is on Mormon forums( if they exist)....
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Left? Seriously? This is a very conservative forum.
__________________
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4
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May 20, '16, 12:57 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 15, 2007
Posts: 6,724
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
I think for a religious forum of a
religion that would not align itself with the "left" of Americas
politics that yes, caf is left of other religious forums. Not saying it
isn't on the right end of the spectrum. Just that in comparison there
seems to be a lot more expression of liberal ideas here than in other
forums. Religiously and politically.
Over the last few years ss"m" has been debated quite a lot on this forum
where there should not really be long threads about such a closed
issue. Start s thread on a leftist issue and you will get quite a lot of
support. I've also noticed far left posters stick around longer than
far right posters. Not that there are many of either though.
It's like saying Hannity is left of beck who is left of savage..... It's
all true, and they are all on the right. Caf is the Hannity of the
religious forum world.....
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Still confused. Catholicism is not naturally "right" or "left". But this forum is undoubtedly pretty far "right."
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4
May 20, '16, 12:57 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 9,000
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMC
Left? Seriously? This is a very conservative forum.
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I think what he's saying is that from a 'religious' website standpoint, this forum is further 'left' than most.
From a 'Catholic' website standpoint, it certainly leans more conservative than liberal.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 20, '16, 1:00 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
I don't remember Bush campaigning about
how we needed to waterboard and go beyond waterboarding in 2000, or
2004. I know McCain was against it.
Our choice this election is candidate 1 who is pro-choice and holds
morally wrong opinions on many issues, and candidate 2 who is also
pro-choice and holds morally wrong opinions on many issues.
Do pro-life people say things like that? Do women in the thousands
really write Donald Trump about their wonderful experiences at PP?
Why, why, why can't it be categorically said, "No funding, they make a profit every year and don't need funding"
I'm supposed to believe this fellow is pro-life?
Sorry. I can't do it.
I didn't want him as a candidate.
adding this link to an article, I think very good:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standin...my-advice.html |
The appointment of one and possibly three Supreme Court justices
will shape our country for decades. Yes trump is a new convert to the
pro life movement who perhaps does not have all his feet wet yet. But I
would think this promise to nominate pro life judges should factor into
any vote. Hillary or trump will win. I'll vote for the guy who has the
reasonable chance to advance the pro life agenda. Even if he isn't pro
life enough.
Again, I'd love to hear the name of a perfect Catholic candidate.....
This mysterious "third" or 223rd party that seems to have so much moral
support from conservatives....
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
|
May 20, '16, 1:00 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
Torture and racism, targeting noncombatants in acts of war.
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Hillary has advocated the torture and killing of noncombatants here whole career.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 1:24 pm
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Senior Member
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Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
Hillary has advocated the torture and killing of noncombatants here whole career.
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Well maybe not her whole career.
"One thing we know that does not work is offensive, inflammatory
rhetoric that demonizes all Muslims," she said, adding, "Another thing
we know that does not work, based on lots of empirical evidence, is
torture."
"Many intelligence, military and law enforcement experts have attested
to this fact. It also puts our own troops and increasingly our own
civilians at greater risk," Clinton said.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...torture-count/
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 1:27 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 5, 2005
Posts: 17,398
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
The appointment of one and possibly three
Supreme Court justices will shape our country for decades. Yes trump is
a new convert to the pro life movement who perhaps does not have all
his feet wet yet. But I would think this promise to nominate pro life
judges should factor into any vote. Hillary or trump will win. I'll vote
for the guy who has the reasonable chance to advance the pro life
agenda. Even if he isn't pro life enough.
Again, I'd love to hear the name of a perfect Catholic candidate.....
This mysterious "third" or 223rd party that seems to have so much moral
support from conservatives....
|
One specific candidate has profited from a very liberal
interpretation of eminent domain. His main self proclaimed strength is
his business savvy and expertise. Hmm, will he be really willing to
appoint conservative judges when doing so will affect his business
practices negatively? Or is he going to "negotiate" the nomination
process.
Again, there were stronger prolife candidates. The voting for lesser
evil didn't seem to matter much. That's how come he's the candidate.
__________________
Jesus, protect and save the unborn.
The Word became flesh, He lived among us, and we
saw His glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the
Father, full of grace and truth.
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May 20, '16, 1:31 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 12,160
Religion: Still Catholic......
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
I don't remember Bush campaigning about
how we needed to waterboard and go beyond waterboarding in 2000, or
2004. I know McCain was against it.
Our choice this election is candidate 1 who is pro-choice and holds
morally wrong opinions on many issues, and candidate 2 who is also
pro-choice and holds morally wrong opinions on many issues.
Do pro-life people say things like that? Do women in the thousands
really write Donald Trump about their wonderful experiences at PP?
Why, why, why can't it be categorically said, "No funding, they make a profit every year and don't need funding"
I'm supposed to believe this fellow is pro-life?
Sorry. I can't do it.
I didn't want him as a candidate.
adding this link to an article, I think very good:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standin...my-advice.html |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
One specific candidate has profited from a
very liberal interpretation of eminent domain. His main self proclaimed
strength is his business savvy and expertise. Hmm, will he be really
willing to appoint conservative judges when doing so will affect his
business practices negatively? Or is he going to "negotiate" the
nomination process.
Again, there were stronger prolife candidates. The voting for lesser
evil didn't seem to matter much. That's how come he's the candidate.
|
Luckily I think trump is going to win. So those people who abstain
from voting will have the benefits of the pro life appointees. And the
moral high ground to rail against him. I know many people who never vote
who enjoy this position.....
__________________
--- Better to be slapped with the Truth than kissed with a lie--------- Russian Proverb
Hey, Visit my wife's site and buy yourself some spiffy T shirts!
http://www.catholic-threads.com/
|
May 20, '16, 1:52 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Luckily I think trump is going to win. So
those people who abstain from voting will have the benefits of the pro
life appointees. And the moral high ground to rail against him. I know
many people who never vote who enjoy this position.....
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They can also enjoy the position of having to explain to their
children and grandchildren why they didn't oppose the killing of unborn
children when they had the chance.
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May 20, '16, 2:22 pm
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Join Date: May 8, 2005
Posts: 48,606
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMC
Still confused. Catholicism is not naturally "right" or "left". But this forum is undoubtedly pretty far "right."
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If one considers opposition to abortion, mandated contraception
and homosexual marriage being " to be to the right "you are correct. It
is unfortunate that the Democrat party has so embraced the culture of
death that their is no place other than"the right" for Faithful
Catholics to go
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May 20, '16, 3:31 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: May 15, 2010
Posts: 1,086
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
But knowing that a majority of Catholics are democrats I'm not surprised. Tell me, who is your candidate?
|
That was once true for historical reasons, and it's partially true
now for demographic reasons, but it's not as true in any event as it
once was.
This year, 2016, Pew states that 37% of Catholics are GOP or lean GOP,
and that 44% are Democratic or lean Democratic. The Democrats have
gained 7% with Catholics since 2012, when they were nearly equal. Why
that is, I'm not sure, but Trump's style may have something to do with
it. 19% of Catholic are independent.
I can believe that as I've been all three. I was a Democrat while young
when a Democrat in my state didn't have to be hostile to life. I
switched to independent when it became clear that you had to be a social
liberal and support some extreme things to remain in the Democratic
Party and I couldn't accept that. Most of the other Democrats in my
state did the same thing, or went GOP. I ultimately joined the GOP. I'm
thinking of going back to independent as there are a lot of things about
the GOP here I cannot support, but then I wouldn't get to vote in our
primary.
Catholics were Democrats, we have to accept, as we came from immigrant
groups, by and large, whom the Democrats favored with patronage. We
stayed there for historical reasons and because we conceive of the
Democrats of being the party of the poor and the working class, but we
really ought to rethink it. To a large extent, the Democratic Party has
become the party of the highly urban, formerly Protestant, white upper
middle class/lower upper class, and its focus reflects that. Not much of
a place left for people who, for example, are blue collar, but
sincerely Catholic, and maybe hunt and fish, which would have been a lot
of Democrats in my state. We don't have much of a home in the GOP
either.
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May 20, '16, 3:47 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 9,000
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36
...will he be really willing to appoint
conservative judges when doing so will affect his business practices
negatively? Or is he going to "negotiate" the nomination process....
|
This is an excellent point and something I struggle with regarding
Trump. It seems to me that it is likely that he will 'negotiate' the
nomination process, if not on the Scalia nomination (which may very
likely be a pro-life choice), but may not remain consistent with the
next choice (most likely Ginsberg due to her advanced age) which
unfortunately might not move the needle on the life issue.
With that said, while Trump will likely negotiate his nominee (though it
could result in multiple pro-life justices when all is said and done),
Clinton will have a litmus test for her nominees to ensure that they
will uphold Roe v. Wade.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole
and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with
Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska
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May 20, '16, 3:58 pm
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Banned
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Join Date: March 17, 2016
Posts: 2,137
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
It annoys me to see all these Catholics who think that Donald Trump is too liberal. He is not
liberal. He is a conservative populist. This is similar to Vladimir
Putin of Russia. Both Trump and Putin want to defend the unborn.
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May 20, '16, 4:00 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
Well maybe not her whole career.
"One thing we know that does not work is offensive, inflammatory
rhetoric that demonizes all Muslims," she said, adding, "Another thing
we know that does not work, based on lots of empirical evidence, is
torture."
|
I was referring to the children still in the womb, not Muslims. Surely their torture and killing concerns all people of faith.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
|
May 20, '16, 4:09 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
They can also enjoy the position of
having to explain to their children and grandchildren why they didn't
oppose the killing of unborn children when they had the chance.
|
This is wrong on so many levels. It pre-judges others most of all. Taking a moral stand contrary to the conscience of another person is not wrong. How you assume that one who votes (in this case for anyone other than Trump) does not oppose abortion?
I have no problem explaining my position to my children now.
Heck, I can explain the positions of others from a Catholic moral
standpoint. The Catholic Church does not condemn me for it, nor does
God. Why must I face judgmental condemnation from Catholics here?
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 4:19 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: September 10, 2006
Posts: 36,710
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman
That was once true for historical
reasons, and it's partially true now for demographic reasons, but it's
not as true in any event as it once was.
This year, 2016, Pew states that 37% of Catholics are GOP or lean GOP,
and that 44% are Democratic or lean Democratic. The Democrats have
gained 7% with Catholics since 2012, when they were nearly equal. Why
that is, I'm not sure, but Trump's style may have something to do with
it. 19% of Catholic are independent.
I can believe that as I've been all three. I was a Democrat while young
when a Democrat in my state didn't have to be hostile to life. I
switched to independent when it became clear that you had to be a social
liberal and support some extreme things to remain in the Democratic
Party and I couldn't accept that. Most of the other Democrats in my
state did the same thing, or went GOP. I ultimately joined the GOP. I'm
thinking of going back to independent as there are a lot of things about
the GOP here I cannot support, but then I wouldn't get to vote in our
primary.
Catholics were Democrats, we have to accept, as we came from immigrant
groups, by and large, whom the Democrats favored with patronage. We
stayed there for historical reasons and because we conceive of the
Democrats of being the party of the poor and the working class, but we
really ought to rethink it. To a large extent, the Democratic Party has
become the party of the highly urban, formerly Protestant, white upper
middle class/lower upper class, and its focus reflects that. Not much of
a place left for people who, for example, are blue collar, but
sincerely Catholic, and maybe hunt and fish, which would have been a lot
of Democrats in my state. We don't have much of a home in the GOP
either.
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I left the Dem party because of abortion, but never became anything else.
One small correction. In 2012, most white Catholics voted Repub. The Hispanics made the difference.
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May 20, '16, 4:34 pm
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Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
This is wrong on so many levels. It pre-judges others most of all. Taking a moral stand contrary to the conscience of another person is not wrong. How you assume that one who votes (in this case for anyone other than Trump) does not oppose abortion?
I have no problem explaining my position to my children now.
Heck, I can explain the positions of others from a Catholic moral
standpoint. The Catholic Church does not condemn me for it, nor does
God. Why must I face judgmental condemnation from Catholics here?
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I do not condemn you. I do not prejudge you.
I condemn actions that are clearly wrong, and characterize them in the
ways they can only be characterized. Not opposing evil=not opposing
evil. Supporting an intrinsic evil=supporting an intrinsic evil. Not
hard.
Neither do I accept the concept of absolute primacy of conscience.
That's not Catholic, it's relativism for which I think we can thank
Protestantism. We are assumed to have well-informed consciences,
consistent with the teachings of the Church, not just consciences.
And I don't think any of us can ever assert that God does not condemn
any number of things we do. Doesn't the bible say "...even the just man
falls seven times a day"? Better to admit it even when we don't like
doing it.
May 20, '16, 4:45 pm
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
This is wrong on so many levels. It pre-judges others most of all. Taking a moral stand contrary to the conscience of another person is not wrong. How you assume that one who votes (in this case for anyone other than Trump) does not oppose abortion?
I have no problem explaining my position to my children now.
Heck, I can explain the positions of others from a Catholic moral
standpoint. The Catholic Church does not condemn me for it, nor does
God. Why must I face judgmental condemnation from Catholics here?
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You appear to advancing the" Primacy of Conscience" fallacy The Church categorically rejects this :
1745 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our
path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into
practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross.
We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his
conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn
himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance
and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already
committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility.
This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is
true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through
the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable
for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others,
enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of
autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her
teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source
of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral
subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil
committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an
evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the
errors of moral conscience.
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for
charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good
conscience and sincere faith."60
The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups
turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards
of moral conduct.61
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May 20, '16, 5:28 pm
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Forum Elder
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
You appear to advancing the" Primacy of Conscience" fallacy The Church categorically rejects this
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You know what does not appear in the Catechism? The word
"fallacy" or any thing that contradicts one bit what I said. Do you know
what does appear? "A human being must always obey the certain judgment
of his conscience. " Note the period at the end of the sentence. In the
context above, I must obey my conscience or, " If he were deliberately
to act against it, he would condemn himself. "
Your quote is a passage I have read dozens of times and follow to the
best of my ability. It is a teaching of the Church. If I said one thing
contrary to this teaching, please point it out, I have pointed out that
the Catechism does not call it a fallacy.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 5:33 pm
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Prayer Warrior
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
You know what does not appear in the
Catechism? The word "fallacy" or any thing that contradicts one bit what
I said. Do you know what does appear? "A human being must always obey
the certain judgment of his conscience. " Note the period at the end of
the sentence. In the context above, I must obey my conscience or, " If
he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. "
Your quote is a passage I have read dozens of times and follow to the
best of my ability. It is a teaching of the Church. If I said one thing
contrary to this teaching, please point it out, I have pointed out that
the Catechism does not call it a fallacy.
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Note the emphasis on a well formed conscience and the statement
that a person who does not avail himself of Church teaching is
responsible for any evil they support. .Ones conscience is not a get out
of jail free card
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May 20, '16, 5:43 pm
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Junior Member
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Posts: 141
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Trump. A third party vote for someone who doesn't have a chance or
non-vote is a vote for Hillary Clinton. I wouldn't be able to live with
that. At least voting for Trump would make me feel I did what I could to
prevent a currently confirmed - pro-abortion-on-demand candidate from
winning.
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May 20, '16, 5:47 pm
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Forum Elder
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
I do not condemn you. I do not prejudge you.
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That's good to know.
When it comes to Catholic teaching, I like to go to the Catechism first.
I am quite aware of what is says about the role of the conscience. I am
fully aware of the sin that can be incurred in deliberate indifference
in informing this conscience, or by deliberate self-deception. I am not
referring those that do that. I am referring only to Catholics that
strive to follow the teaching of the Church, and to learn more about
that teaching.
Moral theology is really being put to the test this election.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 5:49 pm
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Forum Elder
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Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieT
Trump. A third party vote for someone who doesn't have a chance or non-vote is a vote for Hillary Clinton.
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Are you saying that if someone who might vote for Hillary Clinton
were to vote for a third party, that they are also somehow still voting
for Hillary Clinton?
Can you show your math?
I say this because this slogan will appear many times this year. It is factually and logically inaccurate.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 5:51 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: April 20, 2007
Posts: 8,587
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy
Luckily I think trump is going to win. So
those people who abstain from voting will have the benefits of the pro
life appointees. And the moral high ground to rail against him. I know
many people who never vote who enjoy this position.....
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That's some very hopeful thinking! Everybody I knew had similar high hopes the past two elections. And we got Obama both times.
If Hillary wins, which is the likely case, then I won't have to feel
guilty having voted for Trump, because I won't have voted for him.
For me: No Hillary. No Trump.
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May 20, '16, 5:55 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 12, 2012
Posts: 15,735
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
Are you saying that if someone who might
vote for Hillary Clinton were to vote for a third party, that they are
also somehow still voting for Hillary Clinton?
Can you show your math?
I say this because this slogan will appear many times this year. It is factually and logically inaccurate.
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It's just a mind game that they use to mess with you, make you feel guilty.
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May 20, '16, 5:57 pm
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Forum Master
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Had read this yesterday and saw it more at depth today.
To paraphrase former Secretary of State bob gates who was in Bush and obamas cabinet, did not speak of Trump.
Trump, well what I can I say.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-fir...151530691.html
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May 20, '16, 7:10 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
Are you saying that if someone who might
vote for Hillary Clinton were to vote for a third party, that they are
also somehow still voting for Hillary Clinton?
Can you show your math?
I say this because this slogan will appear many times this year. It is factually and logically inaccurate.
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Did you mean if someone would vote for Hillary instead of Trump
but votes 3rd party, that they are helping Trump by not voting for
Hillary? Or in reverse, if they would otherwise vote for Trump and not
Hillary among the only 2 with a chance of being the next POTUS and they
vote 3rd party instead, that they then are helping Hillary by not voting
for Trump? Maybe ask Democrats if it's mathematically possible that
just enough Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush in a 2 person
race to secure him FL and saved the nation and the world from 8 yrs of
George Bush. I seem to remember Republicans not long ago fearing a 3rd
party run by Trump against their nominee and now more recently if I
heard right, the RNC chairman saying a 3rd party run against Trump would
be disastrous for the party's chances of taking the WH in the fall.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 20, '16, 7:39 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 15, 2007
Posts: 6,724
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
If one considers opposition to abortion,
mandated contraception and homosexual marriage being " to be to the
right "you are correct. It is unfortunate that the Democrat party has so
embraced the culture of death that their is no place other than"the
right" for Faithful Catholics to go
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No, I mean generally politically to the right. Most posters here
advocate limited government, conservative fiscal policies,
individualism, and other right-leaning positions. Politically speaking,
this is a very conservative forum.
__________________
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4
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May 20, '16, 9:30 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
Did you mean if someone would vote for
Hillary instead of Trump but votes 3rd party, that they are helping
Trump by not voting for Hillary?
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No. I said that such statements are inaccurate.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 20, '16, 9:55 pm
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Regular Member
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Posts: 1,433
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I think the support for Trump in the poll given his public statements shows a disordered sense of priorities.
__________________
 The Gates of Hell are near the bottom, the Church is on top of the rock (Matthew 16:18).
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May 20, '16, 11:20 pm
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Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Saint Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense
against the wickedness and snares of the devil, may God rebuke him, we
humbly pray. And do you, O' Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of
God thrust into Hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who prowl
about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen
__________________
 Married autumn 2009
 Spring 2011
 Sumer 2012
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May 21, '16, 2:47 am
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Join Date: March 25, 2007
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggly Giraffe
Saint Michael, the archangel, defend us
in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the
devil, may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do you, O' Prince of the
Heavenly host, by the power of God thrust into Hell Satan and all the
other evil spirits who prowl about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen
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__________________
As each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God's varied grace. 1 Peter 4:10
May 21, '16, 10:26 am
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
I personally loathe it when religion and politics "mix," but I don't
ever see that going away anytime in the near future. Still, I have been
very fortunate in my own religious life in that I have never attended
churches that were "political" (ie. interested in telling me how to
vote).
That said, I found this article very interesting: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/c...ty_of_god.html.
Like many Christians, my religious beliefs inform my voting habits and
they always have and Clinton's Christianity is one of the things that
has always drawn me to her as a public person and a politician.
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May 21, '16, 10:44 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 19, 2013
Posts: 1,690
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
I personally loathe it when religion and
politics "mix," but I don't ever see that going away anytime in the near
future. Still, I have been very fortunate in my own religious life in
that I have never attended churches that were "political" (ie.
interested in telling me how to vote).
That said, I found this article very interesting: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/c...ty_of_god.html.
Like many Christians, my religious beliefs inform my voting habits and
they always have and Clinton's Christianity is one of the things that
has always drawn me to her as a public person and a politician. |
Yes,it's a very interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
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May 21, '16, 11:35 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: May 15, 2010
Posts: 1,086
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieT
Trump. A third party vote for someone who doesn't have a chance or non-vote is a vote for Hillary Clinton.
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I'm hearing that a lot, but I wonder if in the American system, that's true.
My state is overwhelmingly Republican, and Trump will win here as even
though a large number of people who are turned off by him will vote for
him. Clinton will not take this state's electoral votes.
In that situation (which I admit only applies to a few states), would a
person have the moral option of voting for neither or for a third party
candidate, assuming that a third party candidate more closely fit their
views. Indeed, in this circumstance, which is quite rare, perhaps that'd
be the better option, as it might serve to send a bit of a message.
What I can't quite grasp is how Catholics, such as at least one
"liberal" Catholic commentator I see in the Catholic press, can seem to
be so solidly behind Hillary Clinton as that means they are backing, in
effect, positions we would not be able to seemingly morally support. So
this equation is easier, I think, in the GOP side than the Democratic
side.
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May 21, '16, 11:40 am
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Regular Member
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Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
I personally loathe it when religion and
politics "mix," but I don't ever see that going away anytime in the near
future. Still, I have been very fortunate in my own religious life in
that I have never attended churches that were "political" (ie.
interested in telling me how to vote).
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How can it be that religion and politics do not mix? If we are
sincere in our Faith, that must inform everything we do, and that would
mix it by default. Additionally, as religion addresses the big
questions, life, death, peace, war, it has to mix. For a religious
person, its impossible not to consult the aspects of your faith on most
serious issues. To separate religion from politics is to suggest, in
effect, that religion is solely an internal matter that we need not act
upon, which I know is now what you are advocating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
Like many Christians, my religious
beliefs inform my voting habits and they always have and Clinton's
Christianity is one of the things that has always drawn me to her as a
public person and a politician.
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I do not doubt that Clinton is a Christian (a Methodist, I
believe) but I'm straining to think of an example how that's obviously
displayed itself in her public role. Can you cite to one?
I can certainly think of at least one Democrat in recent years, Jimmy
Carter, who was obviously Christian. I'm sure that Clinton is a
Christian, but when I think of her, I don't think of her as displaying
obvious Christianity. Perhaps, however, I'm in error. I'll note that I
don't think of Trump that way either, and I've been fairly amazed by how
the "Evangelical Vote" has seemingly gone his way.
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May 21, '16, 12:51 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 4, 2016
Posts: 1,766
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman
How can it be that religion and politics
do not mix? If we are sincere in our Faith, that must inform everything
we do, and that would mix it by default. Additionally, as religion
addresses the big questions, life, death, peace, war, it has to mix. For
a religious person, its impossible not to consult the aspects of your
faith on most serious issues. To separate religion from politics is to
suggest, in effect, that religion is solely an internal matter that we
need not act upon, which I know is now what you are advocating.
I do not doubt that Clinton is a Christian (a Methodist, I believe) but
I'm straining to think of an example how that's obviously displayed
itself in her public role. Can you cite to one?
I can certainly think of at least one Democrat in recent years, Jimmy
Carter, who was obviously Christian. I'm sure that Clinton is a
Christian, but when I think of her, I don't think of her as displaying
obvious Christianity. Perhaps, however, I'm in error. I'll note that I
don't think of Trump that way either, and I've been fairly amazed by how
the "Evangelical Vote" has seemingly gone his way.
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I'm not saying one's religion shouldn't inform one's political decisions - clearly, it does
do that for almost every religious person I know. What I am saying is
that I don't want my Church entering the muck of politics or telling me
what I should vote for or how I should vote. My church is about bigger,
more important things than that. Good faith Christians can arrive at
different positions and decisions when it comes to political questions.
That much is clear.
As for Hillary - I have followed her in detail for years. She does not
wear an easy, neat as a bow faith on her sleeve; instead, she's down in
the muck, willing to smell like the sheep. She is faith in action.
Hillary Clinton is cut from the same cloth as Christian woman I have
admired my whole life - she is faithful, persevering, slow to anger,
patient, kind and courageous. She has spent her adult life working
tirelessly for children - particularly children who live in poverty -
and she takes seriously the call to look out for the least of these.
She also does talk (honestly and openly and beautifully) about her
Christianity and her faith when asked, but I've always been more moved
by actions than words when it comes to all of that stuff.
Out of pure laziness, I won't type out all the efforts she has led to
make the world a better place than she found it - it's at the fingertips
of anyone who wishes to explore it.
I loved Jimmy Carter as well. For me, both Carter and Clinton are role
models, but Clinton, as a woman, speaks to me more personally. This
political season has not been difficult for me because I've known from
the beginning that she is the best choice to serve as our country's next
President. I understand that others are having a tougher time of it in
2016.
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May 21, '16, 3:30 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
I personally loathe it when religion and
politics "mix," but I don't ever see that going away anytime in the near
future. Still, I have been very fortunate in my own religious life in
that I have never attended churches that were "political" (ie.
interested in telling me how to vote).
That said, I found this article very interesting: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/c...ty_of_god.html.
Like many Christians, my religious beliefs inform my voting habits and
they always have and Clinton's Christianity is one of the things that
has always drawn me to her as a public person and a politician. |
FWIW the Catholic bishops say in their Faithful Citizenship guide:
7. In this statement, we bishops do not intend to tell Catholics for
whom or against whom to vote. Our purpose is to help Catholics form
their consciences in accordance with God's truth. We recognize that the
responsibility to make choices in political life rests with each
individual in light of a properly formed conscience, and that
participation goes well beyond casting a vote in a particular election.
What then occurs, well, I guess one only needs to read CAF for the ongoing debate.
Anyway, Little Sheep, I just wanted to join Good Tidings in thanking you for posting that interesting article.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 21, '16, 3:36 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: March 30, 2010
Posts: 26,098
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
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Like many Christians, my religious beliefs inform my voting habits
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Like all of us and frankly its rather a stretch to assume
democrats even represent christian or Catholic at all. What is the
paradigm of like points for this comparison as I am very interested in
the debate?
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May 21, '16, 4:09 pm
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Prayer Warrior
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
FWIW the Catholic bishops say in their Faithful Citizenship guide:
7. In this statement, we bishops do not intend to tell Catholics for
whom or against whom to vote. Our purpose is to help Catholics form
their consciences in accordance with God's truth. We recognize that the
responsibility to make choices in political life rests with each
individual in light of a properly formed conscience, and that
participation goes well beyond casting a vote in a particular election.
What then occurs, well, I guess one only needs to read CAF for the ongoing debate.
Anyway, Little Sheep, I just wanted to join Good Tidings in thanking you for posting that interesting article.
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Of course the Church does not tell us who to vote for But they Do make
it clear support of what issues disqualify a candidate from receiving a
Catholics vote ,The teaching is quite clear for those who take the time
to seek it out -or read this thread
I have found when discerning Catholc teaching it is best to turn to the
Magestrium rather than articles on secular new sites-especially those
that support abortion unwuvocsbly
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May 21, '16, 4:24 pm
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Prayer Warrior
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
Like all of us and frankly its rather a
stretch to assume democrats even represent christian or Catholic at all.
What is the paradigm of like points for this comparison as I am very
interested in the debate? |
It is generally my experience when people are concerned about
religion and politics getting mixed up is they are having a hard time
reconciling their religion with their politics. This is especially true
of Catholics trying to rationalize their votes for pro abortion
candidates
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May 21, '16, 8:35 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Of course the Church does not tell us who
to vote for But they Do make it clear support of what issues disqualify
a candidate from receiving a Catholics vote ,The teaching is quite
clear for those who take the time to seek it out -or read this thread
I have found when discerning Catholc teaching it is best to turn to the
Magestrium rather than articles on secular new sites-especially those
that support abortion unwuvocsbly
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If they're telling Catholics a single issue disqualifies a
candidate, in this case Hillary Clinton, and the only other person with
any chance at all of becoming the next President of the United States is
Donald Trump and he apparently is not disqualified from the looks of
this CAF poll, that is all I need to know about the majority of posters
on this site and their politics.
As to sites that support abortion, I must live a very sheltered life
because I'm trying to think of a single soul who I know who supports
abortion. I know some people who respect a woman's right to choose based
on her own religious beliefs and who understand as Little Sheep's
article points out, the complexities of honoring the sacredness of a
woman's life and rights and balancing them with the unborn. But I can't
think of anyone I know who actually favors abortion.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 21, '16, 8:42 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
Like all of us and frankly its rather a
stretch to assume democrats even represent christian or Catholic at all.
What is the paradigm of like points for this comparison as I am very
interested in the debate? |
It's not a stretch for me at all but then I'll never be one whose
Christianity is so focused primarily on denying women the right to an
abortion when her beliefs allow some legal choice and denying gay
rights.
Gosh my Christian focus is so much more. And Little Sheep's article was
so good in it's reach. As it spoke of tolerance, racism, the greed that
can spring from excess capitalism, social justice, economic justice to
just to name a few.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 21, '16, 8:59 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 4, 2016
Posts: 1,766
Religion: Episcopalian
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
..... I must live a very sheltered
life because I'm trying to think of a single soul who I know who
supports abortion. I know some people who respect a woman's right to
choose based on her own religious beliefs ..... But I can't think of anyone I know who actually favors abortion.
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I couldn't agree more, Sy. Thank you. The rhetoric is stupefying.
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May 21, '16, 9:03 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
It's not a stretch for me at all but then
I'll never be one whose Christianity is so focused primarily on denying
women the right to an abortion when her beliefs allow some legal choice
and denying gay rights.
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I agree that our focus needs to be broader, but I cannot let this
illogical statement go unanswered. What does here belief have to do with
her rights? Would you also say that those who believe, or believed, in
slavery should have the right to own other people? Or that those who
believe the husband should have the right to mutilate is daughter's
genitalia, rape his wife and, if needed, perform an honor killing on his
wife, should have that right because he belief allows this as his
right?
This is the fallacy in being personally against abortion, but not wanting to impose your beliefs on others.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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May 21, '16, 9:19 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,025
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
I agree that our focus needs to be
broader, but I cannot let this illogical statement go unanswered. What
does here belief have to do with her rights? Would you also say that
those who believe, or believed, in slavery should have the right to own
other people? Or that those who believe the husband should have the
right to mutilate is daughter's genitalia, rape his wife and, if needed,
perform an honor killing on his wife, should have that right because he
belief allows this as his right?
This is the fallacy in being personally against abortion, but not wanting to impose your beliefs on others.
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Sorry but I don't mix all those issues into one bowl. There is
much more consensus today in regard to slavery and rape and many other
issues you wish to throw into the fruit bowl. With regard to abortion
there is much less consensus. Even among Christians.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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May 21, '16, 10:03 pm
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,028
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Catholic.com presidential poll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
With regard to abortion there is much less consensus. Even among Christians.
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Besides the logical fallacy that truth is a matter of consensus, I
propose that there is very little lack of consensus among all of
Christendom that abortion is the taking of an innocent life. There is
only lack of consensus on whether such taking of innocent human life
should be illegal. Personally, I question the faith of anyone where
convenience is elevated over life. I agree abortion is not the only
topic, but anyone who thinks taking life can be acceptable does not
follow the the teaching of Jesus who said such people deserve a
millstone tied around their neck and that they be cast into the sea.
It is not theology but sin that has cause Christian diversity in this area.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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