Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
For something like that to be conceivable you need precedent. There isn't any.
Now, if the State forced churches to marry interracial couples after Loving, you'd be on to something. But alas, it isn't so.
The only examples I see brought up (including here at CAF) of "adverse
effects" of Obergefell almost always have to do with a private business
(like the Klein Family and their bakery). But even that doesn't
demonstrate any adverse effects of Obergefell. The perceived problem
there isn't two gay strangers getting married, it's local accommodation
laws. A compromise should be made in those instances, from both parties.
So, again, I can't figure out what it is they're protesting, or why the
trans issue was randomly brought into it. Besides, NOM isn't exactly a
pillar of morality. Aren't they a designated hate group due to their
habit of lying and spreading misleading information?
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They're protesting a U.S. Supreme Court decision they disagree with.
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Jun 22, '16, 6:42 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
So....these people are going to go protest a bunch of strangers who happened to get married over the last twelve months?
It's been a year. The sky hasn't fallen. Just random couples got married. The horror.
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It's like a river back, 1 person no longer takes the time to hold
it up, and they say "see, nothing happened, it's all good" then that
person encourages another person and then another, then they are all
saying "It's been over a year now, the river hasn't flooded the banks,
just people with less needless work." encouraging even more to follow
them, then pretty soon only a handful are trying to hold up the river
bank, and then while weakened, the time comes when she finally
collapses.
A year is certainly not enough time to reap what you have sowed,
especially when you are breaking down the traditional family and
persecuting all those who hold true to marriage and the family.
Looking at the moral decay of society, especially in the west (Abortion,
Same Sex Marriage, Adultery, Fornication, Promiscuity etc etc), all I
ask is be patient. I will try to make poor reparation to Mary for my
sins and the worlds, but it will only hold it out for so long if society
keeps going the way it is going.
God Bless You
Thank you for reading
Josh
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Jun 22, '16, 7:16 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
What a thing to have to defend. Marriage between a man and a woman.  It just shows what we've come to. Things aren't improving at all by any
means. We're severely regressing. In other countries, such as the
places where Mother Teresa visited, where they actually do hard work and
don't have time for all of this playtime, there is poverty, yes, but at
least they seem to have faith and morals. Their worry is enough food,
clothing, shoes on their feet. Think of the starving little African
children. Over here, we worry about which bathroom we should use.
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Jun 23, '16, 1:15 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
For something like that to be conceivable you need precedent. There isn't any.
Now, if the State forced churches to marry interracial couples after Loving, you'd be on to something. But alas, it isn't so.
The only examples I see brought up (including here at CAF) of "adverse
effects" of Obergefell almost always have to do with a private business
(like the Klein Family and their bakery). But even that doesn't
demonstrate any adverse effects of Obergefell. The perceived problem
there isn't two gay strangers getting married, it's local accommodation
laws. A compromise should be made in those instances, from both parties.
So, again, I can't figure out what it is they're protesting, or why the
trans issue was randomly brought into it. Besides, NOM isn't exactly a
pillar of morality. Aren't they a designated hate group due to their
habit of lying and spreading misleading information?
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What was the precedent to try and force Little Sisters of the Poor
to sign a poor so contraception etc. could be given to their employees?
There are people who disagree that Churches would be pressured/forced to
marry same-sex couples, but look for example what the following two
people say:
Quote:
University of Illinois law professor Robin Fretwell Wilson says it’s
possible that institutions will be pressured to give ground on gay
marriage by federal authorities (such as the Internal Revenue Service,
which could take away an institution’s tax-exempt status), state civil
rights commissions or private lawsuits. She notes, for example, that the
federal government now reads its laws against sex discrimination “to
include sexual orientation discrimination, which opens a whole layer of
potential threat” to religious organizations.
And yet she also says it is possible that all sides will “be able to live in peace,” noting a recent compromise in Utah, “where you saw an extension of gay rights in exchange for religious protections.”
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http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-institutions/
Look what Justice John Robert about tax exemption institutions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-gay-marriage/
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Jun 23, '16, 6:51 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh987654321
It's like a river back, 1 person no
longer takes the time to hold it up, and they say "see, nothing
happened, it's all good" then that person encourages another person and
then another, then they are all saying "It's been over a year now, the
river hasn't flooded the banks, just people with less needless work."
encouraging even more to follow them, then pretty soon only a handful
are trying to hold up the river bank, and then while weakened, the time
comes when she finally collapses.
A year is certainly not enough time to reap what you have sowed,
especially when you are breaking down the traditional family and
persecuting all those who hold true to marriage and the family.
Looking at the moral decay of society, especially in the west (Abortion,
Same Sex Marriage, Adultery, Fornication, Promiscuity etc etc), all I
ask is be patient. I will try to make poor reparation to Mary for my
sins and the worlds, but it will only hold it out for so long if society
keeps going the way it is going.
God Bless You
Thank you for reading
Josh
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Canada has had same sex marriage since 2005. Is there any data you
can point to that will show that it has damaged the country or
marriage? Or do we have to wait centuries before we see the damage?
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Jun 23, '16, 7:10 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
Besides, NOM isn't exactly a pillar of
morality. Aren't they a designated hate group due to their habit of
lying and spreading misleading information?
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I agree with them on that one issue, that God intended marriage as between one man and one woman.
I don't agree with all their beliefs, and I would not attend or support their event in any way.
The thread on this subject from two years ago:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...=890366&page=2
A letter from two years ago opponents urging the Archbishop of San
Francisco not to attend the rally, with quotes from the NOM and other
event supporters:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/aktest-2011...Final_2_pm.pdf
My post from back then on why I wouldn't attend the rally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by signit
Agreed. I wouldn't attend the rally.
The comments from event supporters in the letter in the link are not the
sort of thing that will change hearts and minds toward the Catholic
position (comparison to drug use and incest; gays want to put us in
jail; gays "recruit" young people; comparison to dog marriage). In fact
they could make the situation worse. The minute a "traditional marriage"
supporter brings up the dog marriage argument they get labeled as an
idiot.
If you want to support the Catholic position, how about instead an event
with a Catholic theme? Maybe an event to celebrate Catholic couples,
Catholic parents, Catholic families? A "pro-marriage" rally like this is
not going to do a lot for public opinion.
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Jun 23, '16, 8:53 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Did anybody propose that in the year that
follows the Supreme Court ruling that that would happen? It doesn't
necessarily mean that it was thought it would happen soon, but that in
the future it is not inconceivable that there could be pressure put on
Churches. I remember reading something on the Catholic News Agency
website about Little Sisters of the Poor, the US government and the HHS
mandate and who would of thought the government would be involved in a
lawsuit against Sisters over the issue of contraception etc...
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Finite beat me to it. But there is no precedent for the fear you
have. When interracial marriage was legalized no church was forced to
marry an interracial couple. They still aren't required to do so today.
Most do today because they no longer object, but on the rare occasion a
church does object they're not forced to do so. If anything precedent
should give you a great sense of relief. No church, Catholic or
otherwise, will be forced to allow homosexual marriages, or any other
form of marriage ceremony they object to, if they do not want to do so. 
That said, if these folks want to march and protest Obergfell, that's of
course their right. Just don't expect anything to come of it. Society
has moved on and now supports same sex unions by a pretty significant
margin (last Gallup poll had support at over 61% and opposition down to
37%). And that has been a steady trend favoring increased support.
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Jun 23, '16, 9:35 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
I would say that the "horror" mentioned earlier in the thread is
offending God. Even though society has "moved on" the Lord is "the same
yesterday, today, and forever" - Hebrews 13:8. His design for marriage
has not changed and neither will the Traditions change in His Church -
regardless of what society now approves of.
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Jun 23, '16, 9:47 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by praccath
I would say that the "horror" mentioned
earlier in the thread is offending God. Even though society has "moved
on" the Lord is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" - Hebrews 13:8.
His design for marriage has not changed and neither will the Traditions
change in His Church - regardless of what society now approves of.
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And that's fine. In the Catholic Church, and individual Catholic
Parishes, marriage is and will I suspect always be, between a man and a
woman. No one will force the Church to change that or force Catholic
priests to marry people inside your church's doors that they do not want
to.
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Jun 23, '16, 10:23 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Dear Padres, I hope you are right. The problem remains, however, for
faithful Catholics who are called to defend the Lord's teaching on
marriage for all. In other words, God's plan for marriage applies to all
men and women, not just Catholics.
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Jun 23, '16, 12:34 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
The stalwart warriors of the Sexual Revolution, many of whom
are now in their sixties or older, worked systematically to shipwreck
humanity. By firmly divorcing sex from procreation, the complete
redefinition of marriage became possible, and gender is well on its way
to being abolished. These hippies can now celebrate these
pseudo-achievements as the rest of us contemplate the human cost of a
shattered society.
Many in my generation have grown to distrust anyone over 30. Now, as the
nearly-extinguished torch is passed to us, it is our responsibility to
undo the damage of past generations by resolutely committing ourselves
to rekindle the flame of truth for a culture that is—after nearly half a
century of embracing darkness—desperately ready for light once again.
--Claire Chretien, After Obergefell: Millenial Uprising
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Jun 23, '16, 12:46 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
The stalwart warriors of the
Sexual Revolution, many of whom are now in their sixties or older,
worked systematically to shipwreck humanity. By firmly divorcing sex
from procreation, the complete redefinition of marriage became possible,
and gender is well on its way to being abolished. These hippies can now
celebrate these pseudo-achievements as the rest of us contemplate the
human cost of a shattered society.
Many in my generation have grown to distrust anyone over 30. Now, as the
nearly-extinguished torch is passed to us, it is our responsibility to
undo the damage of past generations by resolutely committing ourselves
to rekindle the flame of truth for a culture that is—after nearly half a
century of embracing darkness—desperately ready for light once again.
--Claire Chretien, After Obergefell: Millenial Uprising
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Hoping that the Millennial generation is going to reverse course
seems a fools errand. There's greater support for SSM among the
Millennial generation than any other group.
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Jun 23, '16, 2:49 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
Hoping that the Millennial generation is
going to reverse course seems a fools errand. There's greater support
for SSM among the Millennial generation than any other group.
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We'll have to see. Their elders have left them a cultural and
moral wasteland. They can choose to further the insanity, live in a new
dark age, or try for restoration. At least the one who wrote the essay
seems intent on restoration.
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Jun 23, '16, 2:59 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
Finite beat me to it. But there is no
precedent for the fear you have. When interracial marriage was legalized
no church was forced to marry an interracial couple. They still aren't
required to do so today. Most do today because they no longer object,
but on the rare occasion a church does object they're not forced to do
so. If anything precedent should give you a great sense of relief. No
church, Catholic or otherwise, will be forced to allow homosexual
marriages, or any other form of marriage ceremony they object to, if
they do not want to do so.
That said, if these folks want to march and protest Obergfell, that's of
course their right. Just don't expect anything to come of it. Society
has moved on and now supports same sex unions by a pretty significant
margin (last Gallup poll had support at over 61% and opposition down to
37%). And that has been a steady trend favoring increased support. |
Why did Justice John Roberts say what he did regarding tax
exemption. There is obviously a real concern that there could be
pressure on religious institutions and he isn't alone in raising issue
the possibility of such pressure....
In a dissenting opinion in 2014 regarding a case in Virginia, Judge Paul Niemeyer said, cited here:
"Loving simply held that race, which is completely unrelated to the
institution of marriage, could not be the basis of marital restrictions.
To stretch Loving’s holding to say that the right to marry is not
limited by gender and sexual orientation is to ignore the inextricable,
biological link between marriage and procreation that the Supreme Court
has always recognized."
A link that I guess had been found until the Obergefell ruling. What changed?
As for polls, it has in the past been said in this Pew article that
polls have "understated" opposition to same-sex marriage and the
Washington Post article says polls above "underestimated" opposition:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...opinion-polls/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...iage-over-sold
So why wouldn't it be the same with polls now?
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Last edited by _Abyssinia; Jun 23, '16 at 3:04 pm.
Reason: Removal and change of some text
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Jun 23, '16, 3:51 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
Hoping that the Millennial generation is
going to reverse course seems a fools errand. There's greater support
for SSM among the Millennial generation than any other group.
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Abortion is a different issue, but this 2010 Gallup article
discusses how Millennials used to be more supportive of abortion being
legal under "any circumstances" and Seniors used to be more supportive
of abortion being "illegal in all circumstances", but the percentage of
Seniors supporting the illegal position has actually decreased and the
percentage of Millennials supporting the illegal position has increased:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/ge...on-narrow.aspx
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Jun 23, '16, 4:06 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Abortion is a different issue, but this
2010 Gallup article discusses how Millennials used to be more supportive
of abortion being legal under "any circumstances" and Seniors used to
be more supportive of abortion being "illegal in all circumstances", but
the percentage of Seniors supporting the illegal position has actually
decreased and the percentage of Millennials supporting the illegal
position has increased: http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/ge...on-narrow.aspx |
As you said, abortion is a different issue. Abortion and SSM have about as much in common as apples and napalm.
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Jun 23, '16, 4:16 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
As you said, abortion is a different issue. Abortion and SSM have about as much in common as apples and napalm.
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According to this author,
they are similar in that neither can be accepted, as both are intrinsic
evils inimical to society. Both will result in permanent conflict.
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Jun 23, '16, 4:20 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
According to this author,
they are similar in that neither can be accepted, as both are intrinsic
evils inimical to society. Both will result in permanent conflict. |
We'll see. I see SSM more along the lines of interracial marriage.
The same things were said about interracial marriage 50 years ago. Now
the idea that it was ever "wrong" just seems ridiculous.
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Jun 25, '16, 7:10 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
As you said, abortion is a different issue. Abortion and SSM have about as much in common as apples and napalm.
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Justice John Roberts said
in his Obergefell dissent, "There will be consequences to shutting down
the political process on an issue of such profound public significance.
Closing debate tends to close minds."
In Obergefell, you had a sweeping ruling which applies to all 50 US
states, that hindered the debate on legalisation and the issue of the
meaning of marriage, what marriage is, and the consequences for
children, families and religious liberty.
In Roe v Wade there also was a sweeping majority ruling.
Of course the debate goes on, but by the Supreme Court making such a sweeping ruling, it has consequences. It's curious that Justice Ginsburg has criticised Roe v Wade... in a manner which I think could be applied also to Obergefell.
Such terrible rulings by the Supreme Court, in Roe v Wade and Obergefell...
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Jun 25, '16, 9:00 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
"The main point to be understood here is that legalized
abortion, like slavery for an earlier generation, is a public policy
that cannot be accepted or allowed to remain in place. It must
imperatively be fought against even if efforts to do so prove
unsuccessful, even if defeats are suffered time and time again. The
fight cannot be abandoned.
. . . Like abortion, like slavery for that matter, gay marriage is not a
public policy which serious people with formed consciences can approve
or acquiesce in. Rather, it represents yet another instance where what
the law may prescribe—and thus claim to “settle”—once again must be
opposed and actively fought against by all just and lawful means. Gay
marriage won’t be settled as a public policy because it can’t be settled
on the liberal terms it presupposes."
Source
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Jun 25, '16, 4:35 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
It's interesting to me that, less than a year later, the Obergefell
decision (and same sex marriage, generally) is not a campaign issue at
all for the Republican Party. I mean, I guess the Supreme Court
appointments by the next President covers it a bit, but very very few
national Republican politicians are willing to say they are all for overturning Obergefell - they seem to know that such a stance would get no real play in the general election.
I think most Republican leaders are glad the issue is decided. The GOP
autopsy that was performed after 2012 delved deep into the reality that
younger voters do not cotton to the Republican Party's stance on social
issues - it's a genuine barrier to entry for them. Our youth are our
future.
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Jun 25, '16, 4:48 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
It's interesting to me that, less than a
year later, the Obergefell decision (and same sex marriage, generally)
is not a campaign issue at all for the Republican Party. I mean, I guess
the Supreme Court appointments by the next President covers it a bit,
but very very few national Republican politicians are willing to say
they are all for overturning Obergefell - they seem to know that such a stance would get no real play in the general election.
I think most Republican leaders are glad the issue is decided. The GOP
autopsy that was performed after 2012 delved deep into the reality that
younger voters do not cotton to the Republican Party's stance on social
issues - it's a genuine barrier to entry for them. Our youth are our
future.
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Marriage equality is basically a settled issue.
The GOP autopsy after 2012 stated that their party needed to be more
inclusive and needed to do more to court minority voters. They've done
the opposite.
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Jun 25, '16, 5:15 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan2
Marriage equality is basically a settled issue.
The GOP autopsy after 2012 stated that their party needed to be more
inclusive and needed to do more to court minority voters. They've done
the opposite.
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Same-sex marriage is settled in the same way Roe v Wade is
settled, in that a ruling by that court has come down and made it
lawful... but they doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. Roe v
Wade is still in place over forty years later... but it's future is
questionable, to say the least. Not only can public opinion change but
justices on the Supreme Court can change and Obergefell could one day be
overturned. It may seem supremely unlikely to some that that could
happen with Obergefell, but there may be supporters of Roe v Wade who
thought it was inconceivable that Roe v Wade could be overturned within
their lifetime... they may not be so sure of that possibility anymore.
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Jun 25, '16, 5:19 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan2
Marriage equality is basically a settled issue.
The GOP autopsy after 2012 stated that their party needed to be more
inclusive and needed to do more to court minority voters. They've done
the opposite.
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And they really blew that too. The Sanders voters have a lot in
common with the Trump voters, but the GOP doesn't want to admit the
Trump voters dominate the party, much less shift their positions to
attract the Sanders voters. They may very well lose a Presidential
election that should be theirs to win.
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Jun 25, '16, 5:56 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Fewer than 300 people participated in this march today. So, NOM's
assertions of "countless people" opposing Obergefell is beyond spin --
it's either delusion or mendacity, take your pick.
The point is, NOM has never had much support from the general
public, and what it had has been steadily bleeding away. Americans are
fine with recognition of same-sex marriages -- there have been
increasingly strong majorities that think they should be recognized over
the past several years. (Gallup is reporting 61% as of early May of
this year.)
As for the legal foundation for the decision in Obergefell, apparently
NOM's copy of the US Constitution is missing the 14th Amendment. Or
maybe they just don't understand that "all persons" does, in fact, means
all persons.
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Jun 25, '16, 6:24 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Same-sex marriage is settled in the same
way Roe v Wade is settled, in that a ruling by that court has come down
and made it lawful... but they doesn't mean it's always going to be that
way. Roe v Wade is still in place over forty years later... but it's
future is questionable, to say the least. Not only can public opinion
change but justices on the Supreme Court can change and Obergefell could
one day be overturned. It may seem supremely unlikely to some that that
could happen with Obergefell, but there may be supporters of Roe v Wade
who thought it was inconceivable that Roe v Wade could be overturned
within their lifetime... they may not be so sure of that possibility
anymore.
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Roe v Wade will not be overturned, nor will Obergfell. The GOP is
incapable of winning at the national level. The Electoral College
strongly favors the Democratic Party, and that will only increase with
the changing demographics. Yes, Supreme Court justices can change their
mind, as Justice Kennedy has shown.
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Jun 25, '16, 8:27 pm
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Prayer Warrior
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan2
Roe v Wade will not be overturned, nor
will Obergfell. The GOP is incapable of winning at the national level.
The Electoral College strongly favors the Democratic Party, and that
will only increase with the changing demographics. Yes, Supreme Court
justices can change their mind, as Justice Kennedy has shown.
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No offence, but regardless of the demographics or electoral
college, for you to say with such certainty that they won't be
overturned, is far-fetched. It is completely possible that both will be
overturned.
__________________
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Jun 25, '16, 8:30 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
No offence, but regardless of the
demographics or electoral college, for you to say with such certainty
that they won't be overturned, is far-fetched. It is completely possible that both will be overturned.
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Possible but not likely.....
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Jun 25, '16, 8:59 pm
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Posts: 8,030
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Abortion is a different issue, but this
2010 Gallup article discusses how Millennials used to be more supportive
of abortion being legal under "any circumstances" and Seniors used to
be more supportive of abortion being "illegal in all circumstances", but
the percentage of Seniors supporting the illegal position has actually
decreased and the percentage of Millennials supporting the illegal
position has increased: http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/ge...on-narrow.aspx |
It's 2016 Abyssinia.
43 yrs since Roe was decided and after decades of marches.
And still only 16% take the position that in all cases abortion should be illegal.
And among adults under age 30, 62% say abortion should be legal in all
or most cases. That's actually the highest percentage of all the age
groups. Although majorities in all age groups also say abortion should
be legal in all or most cases.
66% of white mainline Protestants, 54% of Catholics and a similar
percentage of black Protestants say abortion should be legal in all or
most cases.
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/04/08/p...on-abortion-2/
Younger adults also are less likely to view abortion as an important
issue. 62% of Americans ages 18 to 29 say it is not that important
compared with other issues.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/
And as others have already stated last month Gallup found 61% approval for same sex couples marrying.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/191645/am...ains-high.aspx
And that's up from just 3 mos ago when Pew found 55% approve and only 37% opposed.
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/c...-gay-marriage/
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
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Jun 25, '16, 9:01 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
Possible but not likely..... |
Exactly.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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Jun 25, '16, 9:42 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy Noe
It's 2016 Abyssinia.
43 yrs since Roe was decided and after decades of marches.
And still only 16% take the position that in all cases abortion should be illegal.
And among adults under age 30, 62% say abortion should be legal in all
or most cases. That's actually the highest percentage of all the age
groups. Although majorities in all age groups also say abortion should
be legal in all or most cases.
66% of white mainline Protestants, 54% of Catholics and a similar
percentage of black Protestants say abortion should be legal in all or
most cases.
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/04/08/p...on-abortion-2/
Younger adults also are less likely to view abortion as an important
issue. 62% of Americans ages 18 to 29 say it is not that important
compared with other issues.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-abortion/
And as others have already stated last month Gallup found 61% approval for same sex couples marrying.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/191645/am...ains-high.aspx
And that's up from just 3 mos ago when Pew found 55% approve and only 37% opposed.
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/c...-gay-marriage/ |
Regarding polls on same-sex marriage. The Pew Research Center has
an article on the website from a while back saying that polls may be
"understating" opposition to same-sex marriage: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...opinion-polls/
On the abortion issue, 81% of abortion clinics have closed since 1991.
Abortion restriction after abortion restriction is being passed in
state legislatures and signed into law. Abortion rates continue to
decline. There is article after article from abortion supporters saying
abortion rights is loosing. I'd say pro-life people are seeing many
wins, although there is a long way to go and challenges remain.
Just in 2014, over half of the abortion clinics that closed were in blue states, according to the Guttmacher Institute: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...liberal-states
As for some of the polls you cited, take the language of "legal in all
or most cases." "Most cases", it seems to me, could mean different
things to different people. If you asked each person what they meant by
"'most cases" you may find out that actually their support for abortion
is more restrictive than you may believe beforehand. When you look at
the polls that actually ask people whether they support specific
restrictions that is more insightful, frankly, because it tells you more
specifically what people actually support or or don't support when it
comes to abortion.
Discussed in the following article, is a Marist/Knights of Columbus poll
which found 81% support abortion being limited to first three months: http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/01/...ortion-limits/
Yet you will be able to find a poll that says most support Roe v Wade.
This seems like a contradiction, unless many people don't understand Roe
v Wade very well. This is why specificity is so valuable in polling on
abortion.
The Marist/Knights of Columbus poll also found the majority of
Millenials support a more restrictive view on abortion and the
restrictions are detailed in above article.
__________________
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Last edited by _Abyssinia; Jun 25, '16 at 10:00 pm.
Jun 26, '16, 3:58 am
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Posts: 4,541
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan2
Roe v Wade will not be overturned, nor
will Obergfell. The GOP is incapable of winning at the national level.
The Electoral College strongly favors the Democratic Party, and that
will only increase with the changing demographics. Yes, Supreme Court
justices can change their mind, as Justice Kennedy has shown.
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I bet slave owners were hoping the same for the Dred Scot decision....yet it was overruled with the 13th Amendment.
__________________
A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away!
"More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason."
- Our Lady of Fatima
Who will speak for those who have no voice?
Life.....what a beautiful choice!
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Jun 26, '16, 6:49 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediliz
I bet slave owners were hoping the same for the Dred Scot decision....yet it was overruled with the 13th Amendment.
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Yes, overruled by the same type of progressive justices that gave
us Roe v Wade and Obergfell. More evidence that the arc of history is
moving away from reactionary policies.
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Jun 26, '16, 6:51 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
No offence, but regardless of the
demographics or electoral college, for you to say with such certainty
that they won't be overturned, is far-fetched. It is completely possible
that both will be overturned.
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No offense taken. You're entitled to your opinion. 
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Jun 26, '16, 6:55 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
I wonder if NOM consider this protest a success. TENS of people showed up!
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Jun 26, '16, 7:30 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
I wonder if NOM consider this protest a success. TENS of people showed up!
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As one headline put it, "National Organization for Marriage's 'March for Marriage' in DC Is a Total Dud"
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...is_a_total_dud
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Jun 26, '16, 8:05 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
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Quite a good testament to the general consensus on the issue these days: "Who cares?"
It's been a year. The sky hasn't fallen (much to the disappointment of some) 
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Jun 26, '16, 8:27 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finite
I wonder if NOM consider this protest a success. TENS of people showed up!
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Numbers I've seen for attendance for the March for Marriage last year were between 5000 and 15000. (By the way March for Life got a turnout estimate of around " 10000"
in 1987, now it has hundreds of thousands in turnout in recent
marches). I'm not sure what has happened with March for Marriage this
year in regards to turnout but thousands of people marched last year.
Perhaps there was a a breakdown this year in terms of getting the word
out to people. I'm not sure.
By the way, even if you take the polls as they, (and I think there are probably reasons to doubt them based on what Pew Research Center
have said about the "understating" of opposition, but take the numbers
as they are... If you extrapolate those numbers out, surely it means
tens of millions of Americans remain opposed to same-sex marriage even
with the numbers from the most recent polls. So whether they turn up to
March, or not, there are still a LOT of people that oppose same-sex
marriage in America.
__________________
Human Life International helps to build the culture of life in more than "100 countries". Please help their mission: https://www.hli.org
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Jun 26, '16, 4:03 pm
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Posts: 1,766
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan2
Marriage equality is basically a settled issue.
The GOP autopsy after 2012 stated that their party needed to be more
inclusive and needed to do more to court minority voters. They've done
the opposite.
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This is just one of the many reasons that Republicans will lose again this fall.
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Jun 26, '16, 4:09 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Same-sex marriage is settled in the same
way Roe v Wade is settled, in that a ruling by that court has come down
and made it lawful... but they doesn't mean it's always going to be that
way. Roe v Wade is still in place over forty years later... but it's
future is questionable, to say the least. Not only can public opinion
change but justices on the Supreme Court can change and Obergefell could
one day be overturned. It may seem supremely unlikely to some that that
could happen with Obergefell, but there may be supporters of Roe v Wade
who thought it was inconceivable that Roe v Wade could be overturned
within their lifetime... they may not be so sure of that possibility
anymore.
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I like you a great deal, A, and respect your personal stance.
Clearly these issues are important to you and you have considered them
in great depth.
But it's an absolute fantasy to think that Roe or Obergefell is going away. MOO, given respectfully.
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Jun 26, '16, 4:10 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 4, 2016
Posts: 1,766
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegehammer
Fewer than 300 people participated in
this march today. So, NOM's assertions of "countless people" opposing
Obergefell is beyond spin -- it's either delusion or mendacity, take
your pick.
The point is, NOM has never had much support from the general
public, and what it had has been steadily bleeding away. Americans are
fine with recognition of same-sex marriages -- there have been
increasingly strong majorities that think they should be recognized over
the past several years. (Gallup is reporting 61% as of early May of
this year.)
As for the legal foundation for the decision in Obergefell, apparently
NOM's copy of the US Constitution is missing the 14th Amendment. Or
maybe they just don't understand that "all persons" does, in fact, means
all persons.
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Yep.
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Jun 26, '16, 5:33 pm
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Join Date: March 8, 2016
Posts: 1,968
Religion: Catholic
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
I'm not sure what has happened with March
for Marriage this year in regards to turnout but thousands of people
marched last year. Perhaps there was a a breakdown this year in terms of
getting the word out to people. I'm not sure.
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That march was before the Obergefell decision. No point marching against marriage equality anymore.
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Jun 26, '16, 5:46 pm
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Banned
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
I wish I could go protest the decision. It was the worst decision in the
Supreme Court's history. It made a radical attempt to redefine American
culture. Today marks one year since the decision was handed down. I
remember crying for the future of the country I loved on that day. I
call June 26th "Northern Treachery Day" because the Yankee federal
government forced same-sex marriage on the whole Union. It was very
unjust. We are still standing strong against it though.
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Jun 27, '16, 10:12 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Numbers I've seen for attendance for the March for Marriage last year were between 5000 and 15000. (By the way March for Life got a turnout estimate of around " 10000" in 1987, now it has hundreds of thousands in turnout in recent marches). I'm
not sure what has happened with March for Marriage this year in regards
to turnout but thousands of people marched last year. Perhaps there was a a breakdown this year in terms of getting the word out to people. I'm not sure.
By the way, even if you take the polls as they, (and I think there are probably reasons to doubt them based on what Pew Research Center
have said about the "understating" of opposition, but take the numbers
as they are... If you extrapolate those numbers out, surely it means
tens of millions of Americans remain opposed to same-sex marriage even
with the numbers from the most recent polls. So whether they turn up to March, or not, there are still a LOT of people that oppose same-sex marriage in America. |
What's happened is that in the intervening year people are coming
to realize that same sex marriage has no impact on their lives. And as a
result they no longer oppose it. And the opposition has been steadily
shrinking in the last year as more and more people come to that
realization. Legal marriage between two people of the same sex has no
impact on traditional marriage. It has no impact on their churches or
their religious leaders since they're not obligated to officiate same
sex marriages. For most people it's a complete non-issue now that it's
legal.
This protest flaming out is just the end result of the sky not falling in the last year. Nothing has changed unless you're gay.
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Jun 27, '16, 11:11 am
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
I humbly have to say that I don't understand the claim to similarity
between inter-racial marriage and our current definition. (Which is
what, anyways?) Maybe it's more accurate to say that I think the
similarities are very superficial. Skin-deep, pardon the expression.
I'm still hammering this out. Yes, I am a product of my time, but if I
ask myself how I would have felt about inter-racial marriage, I don't
think the problems would have been so great. You have a man, and a
woman, who most likely have children. Problems would have been more
practical than fundamental. Actually, I feel somewhat confident, based
on my understanding of the humanity of the unborn, that I wouldn't have
been opposed to inter-racial marriage, and would have been opposed to
slavery, or at the very least chattel slavery and their miserable
conditions. If location doesn't determine the ethical nature of ending a
human life or saying we have ownership over someone, then likewise
skin-color isn't a fundamental issue when it comes to marriage. Those
are superficial qualities. However, I just happen to think that
child-bearing is not a superficial or arbitrary quality, and that
glorifying reproductive technologies in order to strong-arm nature is,
actually, a pretty terrible idea. Bluntly, biology does matter. Again,
pardon the pun.
Before I gave birth, I remember thinking that those old fuddy-duddies
who said marriage was about children were just that; crusty
fuddy-duddies. After I gave birth, I turned to my husband one day and
said, "Those crusty old men are right! Marriage is about children!"
Never thought I'd feel that way.
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Jun 27, '16, 12:33 pm
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Posts: 5,291
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCEL
I humbly have to say that I don't
understand the claim to similarity between inter-racial marriage and our
current definition. (Which is what, anyways?) Maybe it's more accurate
to say that I think the similarities are very superficial. Skin-deep,
pardon the expression.
I'm still hammering this out. Yes, I am a product of my time, but if I
ask myself how I would have felt about inter-racial marriage, I don't
think the problems would have been so great. You have a man, and a
woman, who most likely have children. Problems would have been more
practical than fundamental. Actually, I feel somewhat confident, based
on my understanding of the humanity of the unborn, that I wouldn't have
been opposed to inter-racial marriage, and would have been opposed to
slavery, or at the very least chattel slavery and their miserable
conditions. If location doesn't determine the ethical nature of ending a
human life or saying we have ownership over someone, then likewise
skin-color isn't a fundamental issue when it comes to marriage. Those
are superficial qualities. However, I just happen to think that
child-bearing is not a superficial or arbitrary quality, and that
glorifying reproductive technologies in order to strong-arm nature is,
actually, a pretty terrible idea. Bluntly, biology does matter. Again,
pardon the pun.
Before I gave birth, I remember thinking that those old fuddy-duddies
who said marriage was about children were just that; crusty
fuddy-duddies. After I gave birth, I turned to my husband one day and
said, "Those crusty old men are right! Marriage is about children!"
Never thought I'd feel that way.
|
Different reactions from different people I guess. After my wife
gave birth I didn't have any kind of revelation that THIS is what our
marriage was about. Our daughter is a wonderful gift from above, don't
get me wrong about that. But she'd have been a wonderful gift from above
regardless, but our marriage is still something between us defined by
our love for each other, not our love for or the presence of our
daughter.
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Jun 27, '16, 12:37 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 991
Religion: RC
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
What's happened is that in the
intervening year people are coming to realize that same sex marriage has
no impact on their lives. And as a result they no longer oppose it. And
the opposition has been steadily shrinking in the last year as more and
more people come to that realization. Legal marriage between two people
of the same sex has no impact on traditional marriage. It has no impact
on their churches or their religious leaders since they're not
obligated to officiate same sex marriages. For most people it's a
complete non-issue now that it's legal.
This protest flaming out is just the end result of the sky not falling in the last year. Nothing has changed unless you're gay.
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Or own a bakery.
__________________
My conscience said whatever I posted is fine for a Catholic. Don't violate my conscience, bro.
"God take away your alms. For as you live by charity, so do I by war,
and to me it is as genuine a vocation as yours.” – Sir John Hawkwood
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Jun 27, '16, 12:57 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSpade
Or own a bakery.
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Even that hasn't really changed. You were obligated to not
discriminate at your bakery before Obergefell, and you're obligated to
not discriminate after Obergefell.
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Jun 27, '16, 3:39 pm
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padres1969
Different reactions from different people
I guess. After my wife gave birth I didn't have any kind of revelation
that THIS is what our marriage was about. Our daughter is a wonderful
gift from above, don't get me wrong about that. But she'd have been a
wonderful gift from above regardless, but our marriage is still
something between us defined by our love for each other, not our love
for or the presence of our daughter.
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I'm not slamming your own experience, just further commenting on
mine. The presence of our son has changed the dynamic of our love. Made
it richer. Now it's bigger than us. It's the thinking behind the
communion of saints, really, as well as the Trinity.
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Jun 28, '16, 4:29 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 1,517
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Re: March for Marriage to protest Obergefell decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Regarding polls on same-sex marriage. The
Pew Research Center has an article on the website from a while back
saying that polls may be "understating" opposition to same-sex marriage:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...opinion-polls/
On the abortion issue, 81% of abortion clinics have closed since 1991.
Abortion restriction after abortion restriction is being passed in
state legislatures and signed into law. Abortion rates continue to
decline. There is article after article from abortion supporters saying
abortion rights is loosing. I'd say pro-life people are seeing many
wins, although there is a long way to go and challenges remain.
Just in 2014, over half of the abortion clinics that closed were in blue states, according to the Guttmacher Institute: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...liberal-states
As for some of the polls you cited, take the language of "legal in all
or most cases." "Most cases", it seems to me, could mean different
things to different people. If you asked each person what they meant by
"'most cases" you may find out that actually their support for abortion
is more restrictive than you may believe beforehand. When you look at
the polls that actually ask people whether they support specific
restrictions that is more insightful, frankly, because it tells you more
specifically what people actually support or or don't support when it
comes to abortion.
Discussed in the following article, is a Marist/Knights of Columbus poll
which found 81% support abortion being limited to first three months: http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/01/...ortion-limits/
Yet you will be able to find a poll that says most support Roe v Wade.
This seems like a contradiction, unless many people don't understand Roe
v Wade very well. This is why specificity is so valuable in polling on
abortion.
The Marist/Knights of Columbus poll also found the majority of
Millenials support a more restrictive view on abortion and the
restrictions are detailed in above article. |
What percent want to restrict abortion in all cases?
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