Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20

Apr 20, '16, 9:05 am

gilliam Forum Elder   Join Date: June 11, 2004 Posts: 37,957 Religion: Catholic

Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman will replace Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill http://cnb.cx/1NlnVFY __________________ -gilliam Catholicism is not the religious version of a political ideology

#2   Apr 20, '16, 9:13 am

jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,540 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it!

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 um....why do they have to do this? I thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong...I love the Moses of the Underground Railroad and her story of helping slaves escape to freedom, but is being done to be poltiically correct? Then why don't they replace the $5 bill and put Martin Luther King on it? __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!

#3   Apr 20, '16, 10:23 am

Joe 5859 Forum Elder   Join Date: February 1, 2007 Posts: 20,644 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz um....why do they have to do this? I thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong...I love the Moses of the Underground Railroad and her story of helping slaves escape to freedom, but is being done to be poltiically correct? Then why don't they replace the $5 bill and put Martin Luther King on it? Well, not everything politically correct is necessarily bad. There are definitely political motivations for the change. However, there doesn't seem to me to be a particularly strong reason not to rotate out faces on currency every now and again. It seems a lot less likely that they'd consider replacing Washington and Lincoln. I don't see that happening. But I could see the same happening to Hamilton or Franklin down the line. __________________ Joe (Average Joe Catholic) The Catechesis of the Popes __________________ A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion. –Proverbs 18:2

#4   Apr 20, '16, 10:36 am

JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,253 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education.

#5   Apr 20, '16, 10:38 am

sallybutler Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 3,707 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education. Pretty much all human history is political. __________________ 'Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.' James 1:26

#6   Apr 20, '16, 10:39 am

AnnArbor Regular Member   Join Date: July 6, 2011 Posts: 710 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education. Is that a problem?

#7   Apr 20, '16, 10:52 am

DaveBj Veteran Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 10,650 Religion: Catholic, Tiber Swim Team Class of 2005

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 At least it wasn't sour-faced Susan B. Anthony. Oh, wait, she's still on a coin. __________________ Author of The Children of the Maker, Kindle Edition

#8   Apr 20, '16, 11:05 am

Pat Payne Regular Member   Join Date: January 6, 2010 Posts: 888 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Two thoughts: 1. I can easily lose Jackson. He wasn't exactly a sterling President (Trail of Tears, a temper that was close to Bruce Banner-level in its proportions, the fact that he sincerely regretted not shooting his vice president or hanging his Speaker of the House when he had the chance, etc.) and so replacing him is no skin off my back. 2. Harriet Tubman I can definitely see as a worthy replacement. At any rate, she is head and shoulders above one of the other suggested candidates... Margaret Sanger. If it had been her, I'd never be able to use an ATM again because I'd have wanted to avoid $20s like the plague. __________________ Saint Jude, Pray for us. おぼえていますか　目と目が会った時を おぼえていますか　手と手が触れあった時 それは初めての　愛の旅立ちでした I love you, so

#9   Apr 20, '16, 11:20 am

SyroMalankara Regular Member   Join Date: July 19, 2004 Posts: 4,995 Religion: Syro-Malankara Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I think its a pretty non-controversial choice. Who can argue with Harriet Tubman's worth? In fact, I think the Neo-Nazi's and KKK may have to forgo the use of the $20, hahah.. let's do a minority on each of the bills if it means making them go out of business!

#10   Apr 20, '16, 11:41 am

powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Pat Payne Two thoughts: 1. I can easily lose Jackson. He wasn't exactly a sterling President (Trail of Tears, a temper that was close to Bruce Banner-level in its proportions, the fact that he sincerely regretted not shooting his vice president or hanging his Speaker of the House when he had the chance, etc.) and so replacing him is no skin off my back. 2. Harriet Tubman I can definitely see as a worthy replacement. At any rate, she is head and shoulders above one of the other suggested candidates... Margaret Sanger. If it had been her, I'd never be able to use an ATM again because I'd have wanted to avoid $20s like the plague. No kidding. Jackson was the only President to pay off the national debt - but he did it by closing the 2nd Bank of the United States (which is why it's curious how he's on our currency at all). It's almost like he was put there because Wilson thought that the founder of the modern Dem party should be on our currency somewhere. As for Harriet Tubman replacing him, I have no problems, either. She's actually probably the least controversial of the possible replacements anyway.

#11   Apr 20, '16, 11:53 am

jediliz Regular Member   Join Date: March 20, 2005 Posts: 4,540 Religion: Catholic and Proud of it!

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Pat Payne Two thoughts: 1. I can easily lose Jackson. He wasn't exactly a sterling President (Trail of Tears, a temper that was close to Bruce Banner-level in its proportions, the fact that he sincerely regretted not shooting his vice president or hanging his Speaker of the House when he had the chance, etc.) and so replacing him is no skin off my back. 2. Harriet Tubman I can definitely see as a worthy replacement. At any rate, she is head and shoulders above one of the other suggested candidates... Margaret Sanger. If it had been her, I'd never be able to use an ATM again because I'd have wanted to avoid $20s like the plague. Good point! I would have to go into the bank to get smaller $ to avoid a $20 if it had been Sanger! __________________ A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away! "More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." - Our Lady of Fatima Who will speak for those who have no voice? Life.....what a beautiful choice!

#12   Apr 20, '16, 11:54 am

garn9173 Regular Member   Join Date: August 19, 2011 Posts: 2,164 Religion: Catholic (duh!)

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Only in America can you waste money to change money. __________________ As of 3/22/14: Third Degree Knight Saw it on Twitter during the March For Life: Why am I #prolife AND #progun? Because both policies defend the innocent and protect the weak.

#13   Apr 20, '16, 11:55 am

Siegehammer Junior Member   Join Date: October 22, 2014 Posts: 439

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Harriet Tubman's place in history by any measure is great and powerful and virtuous, and it's right to honori the work she did to free us from slavery. But it's not enough. Putting a black woman's face on money is not going to help the almost half of real-life single black women who have zero or negative wealth. It will not slow down the school-to-prison pipeline that keeps so many of our children from truly knowing freedom. Still, symbolic measures can be Okay. Our relationship with money will always be complex, conflicted and morally ambiguous—and maybe putting the face of the woman who freed us on the thing for which we were enslaved is the realest way to honor the American paradox. But, at the end of the day, it's much less important to put Harriet Tubman's face on those bills than it is to put her great-great-great-grandchildren's hands on more of those bills. The best tribute we can make to Harriet Tubman is if liberate her descendants from the real-life injustices we face today.

#14   Apr 20, '16, 11:58 am

Ojo Feliz Regular Member   Join Date: April 4, 2016 Posts: 719

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education. How much could most Americans tell you about Andrew Jackson, the current $20 bill incumbent? I think Harriet Tubman will be equally well-known.

#15   Apr 20, '16, 12:06 pm

JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,580 Religion: Catholic

Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj At least it wasn't sour-faced Susan B. Anthony. Oh, wait, she's still on a coin. I remember that train wreck. Back then when coffee machines still took quarters, people mistakenly put Susan B, Anthony dollar coins in. They didn't get their coffee and lost a dollar. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."        Apr 20, '16, 12:21 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 When it comes to Harriet Tubman's vision of America vs. the vision that Andrew Jackson had, Harriet's vision is the one that prevails. Andrew Jackson is no doubt a very influential figure who was critical in shaping America. But he was not heroic. Harriet Tubman is much more representative of the views and values of the average America today than Andrew Jackson is. It was therefore not only a politically correct choice to make, but a rationally correct choice to make as well.   #17   Apr 20, '16, 12:22 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by jediliz um....why do they have to do this? I thought it was a joke. Don't get me wrong...I love the Moses of the Underground Railroad and her story of helping slaves escape to freedom, but is being done to be poltiically correct? Then why don't they replace the $5 bill and put Martin Luther King on it? Because Harriet is a twofer Black and a women   #18   Apr 20, '16, 12:23 pm tee_eff_em Forum Master Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 13,761 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj At least it wasn't sour-faced Susan B. Anthony. Oh, wait, she's still on a coin. Not one currently minted, though I suppose they might still be in circulation (if you can call it that). "" tee __________________ THE REPUTATION SYSTEM WANTS TO BE FREE Homestyle Catholic CAF Knights of Columbus group Dominae dominique: Elvis ex aedificio exiit!   #19   Apr 20, '16, 12:42 pm RyanBlack Regular Member   Join Date: June 18, 2010 Posts: 2,948 Religion: Ruthenian Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I'm glad that we're replacing a villain with a hero.   #20   Apr 20, '16, 12:51 pm John Lazarus Regular Member   Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 4,563 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Ojo Feliz How much could most Americans tell you about Andrew Jackson, the current $20 bill incumbent? Well, in 1814 he took a little trip... __________________ "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole." — Vlad II, Voivode of Wallachia   #21   Apr 20, '16, 12:55 pm pnewton Forum Elder   Join Date: June 1, 2004 Posts: 34,025 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 If this is a two-fer on political correctness, is there a two-fer face palm emoticon? I never thought I would envy Canada their queen. __________________ "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus Nooo!! I didn't mean it!   #22   Apr 20, '16, 12:58 pm Burt Macklin   Join Date: June 17, 2013 Posts: 1,152 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Because Harriet is a twofer Black and a women I'm just disappointed they didn't find a black LGBTQ woman, but I suppose a twofer isn't all that bad.   #23   Apr 20, '16, 1:08 pm DaveBj Veteran Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 10,650 Religion: Catholic, Tiber Swim Team Class of 2005 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by John Lazarus Well, in 1814 he took a little trip... Made me *snork* __________________ Author of The Children of the Maker, Kindle Edition   #24   Apr 20, '16, 1:27 pm exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 More than half of the people on the currency are at best scoundrels. It would have been better to remove the war criminals Lincoln and Grant. Jackson had his problems. But he resisted the national bank with good reason. He saved us from its terror and corruption until the tyrant Lincoln came along. It was a tad insulting to his memory to be on this currency but all the same I'd have rather he stayed. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #25   Apr 20, '16, 1:29 pm Seamus L Senior Member   Join Date: November 22, 2007 Posts: 8,071 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Supposedly won't happen till 2030. Anyone could be on it by then. Still I'll Take Old Hickory's accomplishments over anyone else's that's been proposed.   #26   Apr 20, '16, 1:31 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education. You're right; it should have been Hillary Clinton. Well, maybe someday, many years from now.   #27   Apr 20, '16, 1:32 pm poker10 Junior Member   Join Date: June 20, 2010 Posts: 374 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 People in Tennessee will be up in arms about this, where he's considered a hero. But that's about all.   #28   Apr 20, '16, 2:10 pm Ojo Feliz Regular Member   Join Date: April 4, 2016 Posts: 719 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by poker10 People in Tennessee will be up in arms about this, where he's considered a hero. But that's about all. Perhaps they will be mollified that Jackson will still be on the $20 bill. He simply will be residing on the back side of it instead of the front. The backs of other US currency will be changed as well. The intent seems to be to represent more women who influenced US history: Quote: While Hamilton would remain on the $10, and Abraham Lincoln on the $5s, images of women would be added to the back of both — in keeping with Mr. Lew’s intent “to bring to life” the national monuments depicted there. The picture of the Treasury building on the back of the $10 bill would be replaced with a depiction of a 1913 march in support of women’s right to vote that ended at the building, along with portraits of five suffrage leaders: Lucretia Mott, Sojourner Truth, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Alice Paul and Susan B. Anthony, who in more recent years was on an unpopular $1 coin until minting ceased. On the flip side of the $5 bill, the Lincoln Memorial would remain, but as the backdrop for the 1939 performance there of Marian Anderson, the African-American opera star, after she was barred from singing at the segregated Constitution Hall nearby. Sharing space on the rear would be images of Eleanor Roosevelt, the first lady who arranged Anderson’s Lincoln Memorial performance, and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who in 1963 delivered his “I have a dream” speech from its steps. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us...et-tubman.html   #29   Apr 20, '16, 3:34 pm ucfengr Regular Member   Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,110 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Wait until they find out Harriet Tubman was a Republican, who carried a gun.   #30   Apr 20, '16, 3:40 pm BellsMom Junior Member   Join Date: March 9, 2010 Posts: 381 Re: Women Sweep Redesigns of $5, $10 and $20 Bills Its going to be very strange for me to see different faces on my bills. Apr 20, '16, 3:41 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,253 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Burt Macklin I'm just disappointed they didn't find a black LGBTQ woman, but I suppose a twofer isn't all that bad. Give it time.   #32   Apr 20, '16, 3:42 pm ucfengr Regular Member   Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,110 Religion: Catholic Re: Women Sweep Redesigns of $5, $10 and $20 Bills Quote: Originally Posted by didymus NY Times: Yee-hah! Take that, Andrew Jackson, you racist jerk! Jackson was a man of his time, not ours.   #33   Apr 20, '16, 3:45 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Wait until they find out Harriet Tubman was a Republican, who carried a gun. Say it ain't so! Well, she does look tough. My vote is for Eleanor Roosevelt. But I understand both she and MLK are being considered for future bills, if we still have cash by then, or a country.   #34   Apr 20, '16, 4:18 pm sallybutler Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 3,707 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Would that be worse than an adulterer (Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Readhad a common law marriage, not a civil or religious marriage)? __________________ 'Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.' James 1:26   #35   Apr 20, '16, 4:27 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy You're right; it should have been Hillary Clinton. Well, maybe someday, many years from now. Or better yet the wicked witch of the West   #36   Apr 20, '16, 4:27 pm JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,580 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by sallybutler Would that be worse than an adulterer (Benjamin Franklin and Deborah Readhad a common law marriage, not a civil or religious marriage)? Accusations of Benjamin Franklin being unfaithful to his wife are unfounded. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   #37   Apr 20, '16, 4:31 pm sallybutler Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 3,707 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS Accusations of Benjamin Franklin being unfaithful to his wife are unfounded. Jim What part of HE WAS NOT MARRIED do you not get. He had out of wedlock children. __________________ 'Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.' James 1:26   #38   Apr 20, '16, 4:55 pm Stylteralmaldo Veteran Member   Join Date: June 2, 2004 Posts: 9,000 Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite) Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I'm glad Alexander Hamilton remains on the $10.....first secretary of the US Treasury and all My personal preference would be to remove either Lincoln ($5 or penny) or Washington ($1 or quarter) since they have two denominations. Actually, I'd favor them doing away with the penny altogether, but I disgress. __________________ Today, I want to be transformed, whole and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska   #39   Apr 20, '16, 4:59 pm JimR-OCDS Forum Elder   Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 16,580 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by sallybutler What part of HE WAS NOT MARRIED do you not get. He had out of wedlock children. It was a common law marrige Deborah Read m. 1730–1774 Deborah Read Franklin was the spouse of Benjamin Franklin, a prominent inventor, printer, thinker, revolutionary and Founding Father of the United States. He never cheated on her. Jim __________________ "God can not be grasped except through love."   #40   Apr 20, '16, 5:12 pm sallybutler Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 3,707 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS It was common law marriage. He never cheated on her. Jim Perhaps adulterer is the wrong word. Since common law marriages aren't generally recognized until the couple have lived together for some number of years without benefit of clergy, do you consider this behavior to be recommended? If I had a vote, St Seton, Harriet Tubman, St Damien, there are any number of people, male and female who not only contributed to U.S. history, but lived exemplary lives in addition to that contribution. Why can't we have both? __________________ 'Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.' James 1:26   #41   Apr 20, '16, 5:13 pm PPeterson Junior Member   Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 405 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Because Harriet is a twofer Black and a women When you dismiss one of American history's most exceptional examples of courage and self sacrifice because she was black and a woman, you only demonstrate how needed this change is. __________________   #42   Apr 20, '16, 5:29 pm Theo520 Regular Member   Join Date: August 8, 2014 Posts: 5,532 Religion: Christian Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 This made me chuckle. Quote: Premature Exasperation: ABC Frets Over No Woman on Money ABC on Wednesday preemptively offered a blast of liberal outrage over no woman being on the American currency. A couple hours after the Good Morning America story aired, it was announced that Harriet Tubman would replace Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill. Reporter David Wright alerted, “There are glass ceilings and there are paper ceilings, it seems. Here in the U.S., a woman has never been featured on the front of paper money.” Wright complained, “Hamilton the musical may have saved the Alexander Hamilton the indignity with a duel with any number of female patriots.” Offering up an option that didn’t happen, the journalist derided, “The one possible solution put women on the back of the bill. Yeah, that will go over well.” Cokie Roberts, who wrote an op-ed for the New York Times worrying that a woman would have no representation, berated, “You will have another whole generation of girls who have grown up thinking their proper place is the back of the bus.” Saying of Hamilton, she fussed, “It was time for the ten to be updated and everyone was fine with it until there was a musical on Broadway.” In the end, of course, it turns out that the founder of the Democratic Party was removed from the $20 and the pro-Second Amendment abolitionist Tubman was added. __________________ FACTS MATTER!   #43   Apr 20, '16, 6:08 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by PPeterson When you dismiss one of American history's most exceptional examples of courage and self sacrifice because she was black and a woman, you only demonstrate how needed this change is. Too bad she didn't self identify as a man We coulda had a threefer   #44   Apr 20, '16, 6:23 pm sallybutler Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 3,707 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Too bad she didn't self identify as a man We coulda had a threefer That is just rude. Why do we have to denigrate people based on their race, sex, or sexual orientation? What Harriet Tubman did was extremely honorable. And she did it in spite of personal danger. What about her actions and place in American history do you think should not be honored? __________________ 'Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.' James 1:26   #45   Apr 20, '16, 6:27 pm ucfengr Regular Member   Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,110 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Too bad she didn't self identify as a man We coulda had a threefer Doesn't her being a Republican cancel out her being black and a women?      Apr 20, '16, 6:29 pm lemongrass80 Junior Member   Join Date: May 5, 2014 Posts: 236 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Wow. A lot of the comments on this thread are pretty gross. Inclusiveness, diversity, and recognition (especially of acts of incredible bravery) are all things that I support, and therefore I support this move.   #47   Apr 20, '16, 6:31 pm Crossbones Regular Member   Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by lemongrass80 Wow. A lot of the comments on this thread are pretty gross. Inclusiveness, diversity, and recognition (especially of acts of incredible bravery) are all things that I support, and therefore I support this move. Welcome to CAF!   #48   Apr 20, '16, 6:38 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,253 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Perhaps we could put Fr. Junipero Serra on one of the bills, considering his efforts to open missions all up and down California. But if it has to be a woman, there is Elizabeth Ann Seton.   #49   Apr 20, '16, 6:39 pm Tarpeian Rock Regular Member   Join Date: July 17, 2010 Posts: 4,574 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by PPeterson When you dismiss one of American history's most exceptional examples of courage and self sacrifice because she was black and a woman, you only demonstrate how needed this change is. It's not a "dismissal." It's a natural reaction to the political realities and constituencies that needed to be satisfied in this decision. Eleanor Roosevelt - whose service to the world spanned decades - would have been a natural choice, but of course selecting her would have unleashed the floodgates of "white privilege" claims, as our society continues to fragment, and regarding which "E pluribus unum" no longer seems to apply.   #50   Apr 20, '16, 6:43 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,253 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Tarpeian Rock It's not a "dismissal." It's a natural reaction to the political realities and constituencies that needed to be satisfied in this decision. Eleanor Roosevelt - whose service to the world spanned decades - would have been a natural choice, but of course selecting her would have unleashed the floodgates of "white privilege" claims, as our society continues to fragment, and regarding which "E pluribus unum" no longer seems to apply. Yes, and the trouble is, there are only so many political constituencies that can be mollified by modifying the currency.   #51   Apr 20, '16, 6:50 pm PPeterson Junior Member   Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 405 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Too bad she didn't self identify as a man We coulda had a threefer I'm guessing you would disagree with someone who dismissed Ben Franklin as just another dead white male elevated to iconic status by an oppressive patriarchy. Your comments are equally unhinged in the other direction. Honoring "lives of great men" is noble. Harriet Tubman is a true American hero and deserves respect. __________________   #52   Apr 20, '16, 6:56 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Or better yet the wicked witch of the West I always found Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, the more annoying one.   #53   Apr 20, '16, 6:58 pm PPeterson Junior Member   Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 405 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Tarpeian Rock It's not a "dismissal." It's a natural reaction to the political realities and constituencies that needed to be satisfied in this decision. Eleanor Roosevelt - whose service to the world spanned decades - would have been a natural choice, but of course selecting her would have unleashed the floodgates of "white privilege" claims,. Bro, saying Eleanor Roosevelt would have been a natural choice over Harriet Tubman is a little like saying that Al Smith would be a better representation of North American Catholicism than Issac Jouges __________________   #54   Apr 20, '16, 7:02 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Doesn't her being a Republican cancel out her being black and a women? That is a good point!   #55   Apr 20, '16, 7:06 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I always found Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, the more annoying one. She was too sweet for her own good .   #56   Apr 21, '16, 12:13 am Theo520 Regular Member   Join Date: August 8, 2014 Posts: 5,532 Religion: Christian Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Too bad she didn't self identify as a man We coulda had a threefer Hey, she did self identify as a Republican, so she IS a threefer!! __________________ FACTS MATTER!   #57   Apr 21, '16, 3:10 am didymus Veteran Member Radio Club Member   Join Date: April 5, 2005 Posts: 10,387 Religion: Catholic Re: Women Sweep Redesigns of $5, $10 and $20 Bills Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Jackson was a man of his time, not ours. NOT an excuse and I'm sick of hearing it. Pres. Obama is pro-abortion, do we give him a pass because "he's a product of his time"? __________________ It's not hoarding if it's BOOKS.   #58   Apr 21, '16, 4:49 am ucfengr Regular Member   Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,110 Religion: Catholic Re: Women Sweep Redesigns of $5, $10 and $20 Bills Quote: Originally Posted by didymus NOT an excuse and I'm sick of hearing it. Pres. Obama is pro-abortion, do we give him a pass because "he's a product of his time"? If I was judging him from 200 years in the future, I wouldn't give him a pass, just as I'm not giving Jackson a pass, but I hope I would be cognizant of the cultural differences between that future time and the current time and try to judge him by those standards rather than mine. It's like people who call Abraham Lincoln a racist. By the standards of his time he was rather enlightened.   #59   Apr 21, '16, 5:07 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Women Sweep Redesigns of $5, $10 and $20 Bills Quote: Originally Posted by didymus NOT an excuse and I'm sick of hearing it. Pres. Obama is pro-abortion, do we give him a pass because "he's a product of his time"? Evidently the many many Catholics who voted for him did   #60   Apr 21, '16, 7:05 am jtauke Regular Member   Join Date: January 2, 2015 Posts: 1,242 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Harriet Tubman? People are going to look at the bill and say who is that? The currency is now to be used for political education. If people don't know who she is, then our educational system has failed....miserably.     Apr 21, '16, 6:45 pm Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I am glad that Margaret Sanger is not on currency.   #92   Apr 21, '16, 6:52 pm DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,071 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 I am glad that Margaret Sanger is not on currency. Was she being considered?   #93   Apr 21, '16, 7:02 pm Joseph3 Banned   Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by DeniseNY Was she being considered? I think some people wanted her on the bill as a feminist.   #94   Apr 21, '16, 7:03 pm gracepoole Senior Member   Join Date: June 25, 2011 Posts: 7,041 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by DeniseNY Was she being considered? This is the group that (I think) started the whole "movement": http://www.womenon20s.org/campaign And apparently, Sanger was one of the options available for voting: http://www.womenon20s.org/results   #95   Apr 21, '16, 7:03 pm DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,071 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by gracepoole This is the group that (I think) started the whole "movement": http://www.womenon20s.org/campaign And apparently, Sanger was one of the options available for voting: http://www.womenon20s.org/results Thank you.   #96   Apr 21, '16, 7:09 pm powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer Jackson stood against the Banksters and Biddle's National Federal Bank (i.e., what eventually became the Federal Reserve and Federal Reserve Banks decades later in c. 1913) which is also probably another reason why they want to efface him off the bill. I'm not exactly sure but I think the Jacksonian Democracy movement finally granted the right to vote to all white males in the United State, regardless if they owned any property. Before you had to own a certain amount of property in some of the states in order to vote. I'm probably wrong, but I like to take a guess. Jackson was the founder of the modern Democratic Party. He founded the Party as a breakaway from the Jeffersonian Republicans (often called the Democratic-Republican Party), which Democrats often see as the "true" successor of the Jeffersonian Republicans (and why Party dinners for Democrats are called "Jefferson-Jackson Dinners"). What remained of the Jeffersonian Republicans became the Whig Party; about 30 years later, the Whigs would fracture - with some going into the Democratic Party (especially in the South), some creating the short-lived "No-Nothing" Party and the rest founding the GOP, all primarily due to Whigs' inability to win Presidential elections (the Whigs only won 2 elections between 1828 and 1856, both of them by retired military heroes - who both died shortly after inauguration). The Whigs were so ineffectual that they only had one unifying element in their platform - hatred of Jackson and his Party. Regardless, what spurned on the split was the election of 1824. In 1824, four separate candidates ran for President from the Jeffersonian Republicans (only one man, John Calhoun, ran for Vice President). One of the candidates was Jackson. The second candidate was John Quincy Adams. Speaker of the House Henry Clay was the third candidate, and I don't remember the fourth. All four candidates were ostensibly from the same Party, as at that time, the only Party in town was the Jeffersonian Republicans (the Federalists died out after the War of 1812). Anyway, no man won a majority of electoral votes, so the election was thrown to the House of Representatives. Jackson had won the most electoral votes, but the election would be decided by Henry Clay - who came in fourth place and thus was ineligible for the House vote. Henry Clay twisted arms and convinced the House to proclaim John Quincy Adams as President, as he felt that JQAdams was the least objectionable candidate. Of course, Jackson cried foul, as he not only had received more electoral votes than anyone else, but he had the most popular votes by far. Jackson used this "defeat" to rally his supporters, most of whom were just barely gaining the right to vote, and created the Democratic Party. One of his first actions in creating the Democratic Party was to innovate the Party convention. And even though today we see conventions usually as unnecessary appendages, they were originally created to give the constituents of a Party more of a voice in nominating a Presidential ticket and determining what, exactly, the Party would stand for. So Jackson instituted huge (for the time) democratic reforms in election politics. But as a politician himself, Jackson was extremely vindictive. Around the time of the 1828 election, Jackson's wife died. He blamed stress from the vicious campaign that his opponents ran against him. He never forgave his opponents, instituting the "spoils system" of government in which only the most devoted of his supporters would be appointed to cabinet posts (one of his most famous quotes, which he stole from Julius Caesar, was "To the victor belong the spoils"). And he ruled with an iron fist. He neglected Supreme Court orders (thus the "Trail of Tears"). He convinced Congress to do an early reauthorization of the Second Bank of the US (originally authorized by Jefferson), only so that he could veto it, thus disbanding the bank. He was so loathed by his opposition that they called him "King Andrew" - a not-so-subtle comparison of him with England's former King George III. He did fight against seperatist opposition, now called the "Nullification Crisis". Yet had he been more willing to work with his opposition, the Nullification Crisis probably would not have happened in the first place. In other words, though Jackson was a war hero and instituted important reforms in election politics, his character was probably the worst of Obama mixed with the worst of Trump, without the money.   #97   Apr 21, '16, 7:38 pm Belshazzar Regular Member   Join Date: September 22, 2013 Posts: 663 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer It's pretty bad when the decision about which dollar bill note denomination gets changed is based on the popularity of a Broadway musical. Why not issue two different types of $20s: one with Jackson and one with Tubman. That way, Jackson is not demoted. For what it's worth, the Jackson $20 will still be legal tender even after the Tubman series are to be introduced. They won't be disappearing anytime soon.   #98   Apr 21, '16, 7:52 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,253 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 No matter whose image is on it, I would appreciate a currency that holds its value, rather than steadily diminishing in value as mandated by the Federal Reserve. But that's not likely.   #99   Apr 22, '16, 3:41 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,622 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 If she were alive today, she would be one of the biggest advocates of the Second Amendment. Does he know that Harriet Tubman was a Republican? Harriet Tubman, of course, ran an operation to help slaves escape the South. She's a renowned figure in American history. She was a Republican because back then the Republican Party was the party anti-slavery, and nothing ever changed other than the Democrats co-opted it. Democrats have always been the party of slavery. They were always the party of Jim Crow, the party of segregation. The Ku Klux Klan was a Democrat Party military branch. The Democrats Lester Maddox, George Wallace, all these guys in the South, the segregationists -- J. William Fulbright -- they were the segregationists, they were the racists. Harriet Tubman was a Republican. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #100   Apr 22, '16, 5:17 am Seamus L Senior Member   Join Date: November 22, 2007 Posts: 8,071 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Both parties have changed significantly since then, so it's a baseless argument. The Democratic party is now the party of Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, etc.   #101   Apr 22, '16, 8:34 am tomarin Senior Member   Join Date: April 25, 2007 Posts: 7,538 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Seamus L Both parties have changed significantly since then, so it's a baseless argument. The Democratic party is now the party of Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, etc. The Republican party began as an abolitionist party, if I'm not mistaken, and so it's not surprising that a black American would be a Republican in that era. __________________ If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137   #102   Apr 22, '16, 9:14 am Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS If she were alive today, she would be one of the biggest advocates of the Second Amendment. Does he know that Harriet Tubman was a Republican? Harriet Tubman, of course, ran an operation to help slaves escape the South. She's a renowned figure in American history. She was a Republican because back then the Republican Party was the party anti-slavery, and nothing ever changed other than the Democrats co-opted it. Democrats have always been the party of slavery. They were always the party of Jim Crow, the party of segregation. The Ku Klux Klan was a Democrat Party military branch. The Democrats Lester Maddox, George Wallace, all these guys in the South, the segregationists -- J. William Fulbright -- they were the segregationists, they were the racists. Harriet Tubman was a Republican. And Harriet Tubman's politics matter why?   #103   Apr 22, '16, 10:34 am meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS If she were alive today, she would be one of the biggest advocates of the Second Amendment. Does he know that Harriet Tubman was a Republican? Harriet Tubman, of course, ran an operation to help slaves escape the South. She's a renowned figure in American history. She was a Republican because back then the Republican Party was the party anti-slavery, and nothing ever changed other than the Democrats co-opted it. Democrats have always been the party of slavery. They were always the party of Jim Crow, the party of segregation. The Ku Klux Klan was a Democrat Party military branch. The Democrats Lester Maddox, George Wallace, all these guys in the South, the segregationists -- J. William Fulbright -- they were the segregationists, they were the racists. Harriet Tubman was a Republican. It is more than likely, however, that today Harriet Tubman would be a Democrat, not a Republican. That is because the Republican Party has changed just as much as the Democratic Party.   #104   Apr 22, '16, 10:51 am Monkey1976 Regular Member   Join Date: May 1, 2007 Posts: 2,427 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is more than likely, however, that today Harriet Tubman would be a Democrat, not a Republican. That is because the Republican Party has changed just as much as the Democratic Party. Yeah, I'm sure she'd be just fine with unrestricted abortion on demand, calls to change religious beliefs, same-sex "marriage", encouragement of a cheap labor force via illegal immigration, a culture of welfare dependence...   #105   Apr 22, '16, 1:22 pm DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,071 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I think what political party to which she would belong today is irrelevant. Considering what she did in her lifetime, I think this was a good choice.        Apr 22, '16, 2:45 pm Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by DeniseNY I think what political party to which she would belong today is irrelevant. Considering what she did in her lifetime, I think this was a good choice. Exactly. Her politics, or politics of today, really have nothing to do with her suitability to be on currency. She was an amazing woman, of great strength and courage during a deplorable time in our nation's history. The more people that know about her, the better.   #107   Apr 22, '16, 2:57 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is more than likely, however, that today Harriet Tubman would be a Democrat, not a Republican. That is because the Republican Party has changed just as much as the Democratic Party. So a woman who risked her life saving black lives would join a party that promotes the killing of 400,000 black children a year?   #108   Apr 22, '16, 4:21 pm powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob So a woman who risked her life saving black lives would join a party that promotes the killing of 400,000 black children a year? Who knows. Most of the "Black Lives Matter" activists are pro-abortion Democrats.   #109   Apr 22, '16, 9:02 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 I doubt there would be an American anywhere in Harriet Tubman's time who would be fine with the slaughter of the unborn, or the politics of the Democratic party in general. Such is 'progress'. When it comes to universal freedom, the Republican party is consistent today with its roots. Harriet Tubman typifies the kind of values, and the individual Independence, and making one;s own way in life, and taking care of your own self that made Harriet Tubman heroic in the first place.   #110   Apr 22, '16, 9:24 pm powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 I doubt there would be an American anywhere in Harriet Tubman's time who would be fine with the slaughter of the unborn, or the politics of the Democratic party in general. Such is 'progress'. When it comes to universal freedom, the Republican party is consistent today with its roots. Harriet Tubman typifies the kind of values, and the individual Independence, and making one;s own way in life, and taking care of your own self that made Harriet Tubman heroic in the first place. There actually were people in Harriet Tubman's time that had abortions - it was actually the early feminists (Susan B. Anthony and others) who pushed to make abortion illegal, due to it being a tool used by men to facilitate oppression of women. Ironic that their successors would push for the re-legalization of abortion, calling childbearing the ultimate oppression. Still, we should leave which Party Tubman would have belonged to today out of the conversation. It's counterproductive. Ever since LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, most African Americans - who had previously been staunchly with the GOP - joined the Dem Party. And most of the so-called "Southern Democrats" joined the GOP. It's quite possible that Tubman would be as sick of today's politics as a large percentage of us are. But it's irrelevant. She was - and remains today - an American icon; one of the best representatives of an ordinary American woman doing extraordinary things to help her family, other escaped slaves, her community, and her country.   #111   Apr 22, '16, 9:36 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by powerofk There actually were people in Harriet Tubman's time that had abortions - it was actually the early feminists (Susan B. Anthony and others) who pushed to make abortion illegal, due to it being a tool used by men to facilitate oppression of women. Ironic that their successors would push for the re-legalization of abortion, calling childbearing the ultimate oppression. Still, we should leave which Party Tubman would have belonged to today out of the conversation. It's counterproductive. Ever since LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, most African Americans - who had previously been staunchly with the GOP - joined the Dem Party. And most of the so-called "Southern Democrats" joined the GOP. It's quite possible that Tubman would be as sick of today's politics as a large percentage of us are. But it's irrelevant. She was - and remains today - an American icon; one of the best representatives of an ordinary American woman doing extraordinary things to help her family, other escaped slaves, her community, and her country. With insinuations flying that the Republican party has changed, and have become the racist Democatic party of old, with the Southern strategy and all, it is very much part of the conservation to recognize that the Republican party remains today, as in the time of Lincoln and Harriet Tubman, the party that believes in the freedom of the individual and the empowerment of individuals to make their own way in life. That is who Harriet Tubman was, and that typifies the Republican party of today much more than what the Democratic party has progressed into.   #112   Apr 23, '16, 4:35 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 With insinuations flying that the Republican party has changed, and have become the racist Democatic party of old, with the Southern strategy and all, it is very much part of the conservation to recognize that the Republican party remains today, as in the time of Lincoln and Harriet Tubman, the party that believes in the freedom of the individual and the empowerment of individuals to make their own way in life. That is who Harriet Tubman was, and that typifies the Republican party of today much more than what the Democratic party has progressed into.   #113   Apr 23, '16, 9:38 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 With insinuations flying that the Republican party has changed, and have become the racist Democatic party of old, with the Southern strategy and all, it is very much part of the conservation to recognize that the Republican party remains today, as in the time of Lincoln and Harriet Tubman, the party that believes in the freedom of the individual and the empowerment of individuals to make their own way in life. That is who Harriet Tubman was, and that typifies the Republican party of today much more than what the Democratic party has progressed into. I disagree. The Republican Party has always been the party of Northern big business. They have managed to convince a lot of fiscal and social conservatives that they represent them. But they don't. Lincoln himself was so against self determination that he made war on the South. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #114   Apr 23, '16, 9:47 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo I disagree. The Republican Party has always been the party of Northern big business. They have managed to convince a lot of fiscal and social conservatives that they represent them. But they don't. Lincoln himself was so against self determination that he made war on the South. What about the self determination of 4.5 million held in cruel bondsge? BTW the Soutb started the War   #115   Apr 23, '16, 9:58 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob What about the self determination of 4.5 million held in cruel bondsge? BTW the Soutb started the War Well that was not a purpose of the war so it is irrelevant to Lincoln and his war. The North had slaves before, during, and after the war. We could find all sorts of justifications for making war on the South if all we needed to do was point out some perceived injustice. For instance women and most men couldn't vote. But they would all be equally irrelevant as they were not a cause of the war and would just be ex post facto justifications. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #116   Apr 23, '16, 6:17 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo I disagree. The Republican Party has always been the party of Northern big business. They have managed to convince a lot of fiscal and social conservatives that they represent them. But they don't. Lincoln himself was so against self determination that he made war on the South. I don't have any problem with Lincoln or businesses of the northeast frankly. I am satisfied enough that there have been powerful forces in America that have seen fit to to try to limit and finally dismantle the kind of social system that created a caste system in a democracy based on individual freedom. There is something heroic in that, and there is something heroic in Harriet Tubman aligning herself with these people in order to destroy that slave caste system that people like Andrew Jackson shad aligned themselves with. And the Republicans are a national party that serves as the path for people who are social and fiscal conservatives. Social and fiscal conservatives are not being hoodwinked by the party. Social and fiscal conservatives ARE the party. There is no place for such people in the Democratic party. To try to promote conservative values using the Democratic party as a platform would be to be hoodwinked.   #117   Apr 23, '16, 6:25 pm SWolf   Join Date: December 30, 2013 Posts: 1,980 Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 I doubt there would be an American anywhere in Harriet Tubman's time who would be fine with the slaughter of the unborn, or the politics of the Democratic party in general. Such is 'progress'. Abortion was common in the civil war era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion Quote: Despite bans enacted on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, access to abortion continued, as the disguised advertisement of abortion services, abortion-inducing devices, and abortifacient medicines in the Victorian era would seem to suggest.[71] Apparent print ads of this nature were found in both the United States,[72] the United Kingdom,[6] and Canada.[73] A British Medical Journal writer who replied to newspaper ads peddling relief to women who were "temporarily indisposed" in 1868 found that over half of them were in fact promoting abortion.[6]   #118   Apr 23, '16, 6:32 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Vices are common enough in any era. The difference is that the Democratic party has made what was once considered a vice carried out in the dark and banned and controlled into a virtue that 'ennobles and frees' women from 'male patriarchal oppression'.   #119   Apr 23, '16, 6:39 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 The vice of slavery is common enough in our own era too. The difference is that what was once considered to be virtuous and a source of esteem and pride by American elites is now considered a vice and is deplored as criminal activity globally. No person of any prestige whatsover would want people to know that he is a slave-owner. Harriet Tubman will now be a recognizable face to represent that history of how that complete turn-around in global public morality on slavery changed not just America, but changed the world.   #120   Apr 24, '16, 6:05 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo Well that was not a purpose of the war so it is irrelevant to Lincoln and his war. The North had slaves before, during, and after the war. We could find all sorts of justifications for making war on the South if all we needed to do was point out some perceived injustice. For instance women and most men couldn't vote. But they would all be equally irrelevant as they were not a cause of the war and would just be ex post facto justifications. The north did not make war on the south. The South seceded from the Union and then attacked the north . After being attacked The north went to war to preserve the union. The south seceded to protect the institution of slavery One need only read the articles of secession of the rebelling sates to see this. Lincoln is probably the greatest president the United States ever had. I know this statement disturbs greatly neo-Confederates and those who hang on to the lost cause mythology. Let's be crystal clear about one thing- the brutal enslavement of the 4.5 million people is not some "perceived " injustice .        Apr 24, '16, 6:06 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by SWolf Abortion was common in the civil war era. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion Oh my gosh! Are you saying people broke the law in the 1860s?   #122   Apr 24, '16, 8:59 am powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Oh my gosh! Are you saying people broke the law in the 1860s? Actually, IIRC, abortion was quite legal in the 1860s, at least before "quickening". It was the feminists of the late 1800s that worked to make abortion illegal in the first place.   #123   Apr 24, '16, 9:30 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob The north did not make war on the south. The South seceded from the Union and then attacked the north . After being attacked The north went to war to preserve the union. The south seceded to protect the institution of slavery One need only read the articles of secession of the rebelling sates to see this. Lincoln is probably the greatest president the United States ever had. I know this statement disturbs greatly neo-Confederates and those who hang on to the lost cause mythology. Let's be crystal clear about one thing- the brutal enslavement of the 4.5 million people is not some "perceived " injustice . I don't disagree with what you wrote. I would point out the attack was on a Northern military unit that refused to abandon a position in South Carolina territory. My point was the North did not fight the war to end slavery. So The fact of slavery in the South, and North, is really irrelevant to the war cause of the North. While some masters were brutal not all were. The use of 'perceived' was to cover any ex post facto justification based on a claim of injustice. Lincoln as the greatest president disturbs anyone aware of the facts, not the propaganda, and who values limited government, self determination or the principles underlying the United States. Also, Lincoln was a pure opportunist. I'm not sure why you'd think him the greatest president but that is getting off track. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #124   Apr 24, '16, 9:42 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo I don't disagree with what you wrote. I would point out the attack was on a Northern military unit that refused to abandon a position in South Carolina territory. My point was the North did not fight the war to end slavery. So The fact of slavery in the South, and North, is really irrelevant to the war cause of the North. While some masters were brutal not all were. The use of 'perceived' was to cover any ex post facto justification based on a claim of injustice. Lincoln as the greatest president disturbs anyone aware of the facts, not the propaganda, and who values limited government, self determination or the principles underlying the United States. Also, Lincoln was a pure opportunist. I'm not sure why you'd think him the greatest president but that is getting off track. How does a US mlitary facility become NC property? The Civil War had nothing to do with limiting Govt or States rights-the only right the Souterners went to war over was the right to is. Slavrs   #125   Apr 24, '16, 9:54 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob How does a US mlitary facility become NC property? The Civil War had nothing to do with limiting Govt or States rights-the only right the Souterners went to war over was the right to is. Slavrs I said a military unit in SC territory. It's like how if Iran had a military unit in the US today everyone would have a problem with that. If they refused to abandon their position they'd probably be attacked. It wouldn't matter if the Iranian unit was on Iranian property. You keep saying the same thing but not addressing what I said. All I said was the North didn't prosecute the war to free slaves. The South might have wanted to keep slaves but so did the Union sates that had slaves before, during, and after the war. The South didn't want war they wanted to peacefully go their own way as is the right proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. The Union didn't want to let them go hence the war. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #126   Apr 24, '16, 10:43 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo I said a military unit in SC territory. It's like how if Iran had a military unit in the US today everyone would have a problem with that. If they refused to abandon their position they'd probably be attacked. It wouldn't matter if the Iranian unit was on Iranian property. You keep saying the same thing but not addressing what I said. All I said was the North didn't prosecute the war to free slaves. The South might have wanted to keep slaves but so did the Union sates that had slaves before, during, and after the war. The South didn't want war they wanted to peacefully go their own way as is the right proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence. The Union didn't want to let them go hence the war. The South seceded over slavery . The union went to war to maintain the union. Without slavery there would've been no war . Regardless of how you try to spin it the south started the war by attacking a United States military institution   #127   Apr 24, '16, 10:56 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob The South seceded over slavery . The union went to war to maintain the union. Without slavery there would've been no war . Regardless of how you try to spin it the south started the war by attacking a United States military institution Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, although the I would dispute slavery being the only issue. I'm saying simply the Union did not fight the war to end slavery. Is it your claim that they did? If so what is the basis of that conclusion? __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #128   Apr 24, '16, 11:10 am meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, although the I would dispute slavery being the only issue. I'm saying simply the Union did not fight the war to end slavery. Is it your claim that they did? If so what is the basis of that conclusion? When I was in high school in New York several decades ago, I learned what you are saying, that slavery was not the only issue or even the major issue that resulted in the War Between the States, as Southerners like to call it. There was even the notion of the "happy slave" at that time. And I learned that Lincoln was not really anti-slavery. Later, however, I believe most historians concurred that slavery was the major, if not the only, issue that precipitated the Civil War. I'm not sure about the views of Southern historians today, though.   #129   Apr 24, '16, 11:54 am Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, although the I would dispute slavery being the only issue. I'm saying simply the Union did not fight the war to end slavery. Is it your claim that they did? If so what is the basis of that conclusion? Slavery was the only issue that could morally and politically justify war of brother against brother. Of course northerners and northern businessmen, and even Lincoln were all far from saints. I doubt that Ms Tubman reached the level of sainthood either. That hardly matters. People themselves, Harriet Tubman even, did not fight to enrich northern businessmen, or for Lincoln;s legacy. Ordinary people fought because the point in Christian history arrived when slavery became recognized as an affront to the values of American freedom, an affront to the declaration that all men are born with inherent rights, and an affront to God himself. That is all that matters.   #130   Apr 24, '16, 12:49 pm exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy When I was in high school in New York several decades ago, I learned what you are saying, that slavery was not the only issue or even the major issue that resulted in the War Between the States, as Southerners like to call it. There was even the notion of the "happy slave" at that time. And I learned that Lincoln was not really anti-slavery. Later, however, I believe most historians concurred that slavery was the major, if not the only, issue that precipitated the Civil War. I'm not sure about the views of Southern historians today, though. Some slaves were happy at least by their own testimonial in the slave narratives. Some of this was no doubt due to the fact that sudden, unplanned for emancipation had its own set of problems. My issue is with the unfair one sided narrative. It shouldn't be necessary to defend a position by excluding evidence and inventing explanations which is my view of the typical defense of the Union cause. It is a very speculative affair to say why anyone does anything let alone why people 150 years ago did something. I just don't know of any evidence the Union prosecuted the war to end slavery and lots of evidence to the contrary. Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 Slavery was the only issue that could morally and politically justify war of brother against brother. So none of the classic reasons for war are possible? I don't know of any other war between groups formerly united politically where 'slavery' is even suggested as a cause. Putting aside pure speculation we have the actual words of the Union. Those words said that the war wasn't being fought to end slavery but to preserve the Union. I guess we just dismiss that? __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #131   Apr 24, '16, 1:05 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo So none of the classic reasons for war are possible? I don't know of any other war between groups formerly united politically where 'slavery' is even suggested as a cause. Putting aside pure speculation we have the actual words of the Union. Those words said that the war wasn't being fought to end slavery but to preserve the Union. I guess we just dismiss that? The reason that the Union was threatened in the first place was on the issue of slavery. It doesn't mean that there were not possibly other factors at play. It would be surprising if there were not. It brings to mind a bit of fir first Gulf war where Bush I justified going to war against Iraq because Iraq's actions against Kuwait threatened the oil supply. When that did not bring the American people to their fee, suddenly their were stories all over the press about Iraqi soldiers raping the Fililipina maids of Kuwait. This is what motivated people to consider that war was justified. In the case of Kuwait, the stories of rape turned out to be largely fabricated. In terms of the Civil War, the existence of race slavery and a race-based caste system were real enough. In both cases, it was American belief in the integrity of the individual and the right to all people to life, liberty and happiness that brought people to the point where they desired to take up arms. The existence of slavery was real enough, and the secession of the Confederacy was sufficient to bring the issue to a head. This was sufficient enough cause for people to wage war brother against brother. All other reasons, while no doubt interesting, are otherwise exercises for academics and wonks.   #132   Apr 24, '16, 1:30 pm exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,719 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl1958 It brings to mind a bit of fir first Gulf war where Bush I justified going to war against Iraq because Iraq's actions against Kuwait threatened the oil supply. When that did not bring the American people to their fee, suddenly their were stories all over the press about Iraqi soldiers raping the Fililipina maids of Kuwait. This is what motivated people to consider that war was justified. In the case of Kuwait, the stories of rape turned out to be largely fabricated. In terms of the Civil War, the existence of race slavery and a race-based caste system were real enough. In both cases, it was American belief in the integrity of the individual and the right to all people to life, liberty and happiness that brought people to the point where they desired to take up arms. The existence of slavery was real enough, and the secession of the Confederacy was sufficient to bring the issue to a head. This was sufficient enough cause for people to wage war brother against brother. All other reasons, while no doubt interesting, are otherwise exercises for academics and wonks. You're really proving my point. Aggressors make up stories to support their cause. They claim some moral high ground. In the case of the War Between the States this is an ex post facto claim since, again, Lincoln specifically said he was not interested in ending slavery and fighting to preserve the union. When the war did in some way become about slavery, after the Emancipation Procolomation in 1863 which did not free slaves in the Union, there were draft riots in NYC. The enlightened Yankees started lynching Blacks. They didn't seem so eager to go fight to end slavery. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #133   Apr 24, '16, 3:03 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo You're really proving my point. Aggressors make up stories to support their cause. They claim some moral high ground. In the case of the War Between the States this is an ex post facto claim since, again, Lincoln specifically said he was not interested in ending slavery and fighting to preserve the union. When the war did in some way become about slavery, after the Emancipation Procolomation in 1863 which did not free slaves in the Union, there were draft riots in NYC. The enlightened Yankees started lynching Blacks. They didn't seem so eager to go fight to end slavery. I don't think I am proving your point at all. I have always been fully open to the fact that neither Lincoln nor the North in general were saints. But slavery was central to the reasons that the war could be fought in the first place, and destroying slavery was central to the reasons that the South seceded in the first place, central to the reason that an army could be raised to fight that secession. Slavery was the hot topic of the day, and for good reason. Christendom was having a moral reawakening in that era, and a new consciousness was emerging in which it was fully recognized that when it comes humanity, we are alway of equal importance and equal worth to God. It is universally acknowledged now that the fighting to end slavery is the high moral ground.   #134   Apr 24, '16, 3:09 pm powerofk Regular Member   Join Date: May 22, 2013 Posts: 1,806 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo You're really proving my point. Aggressors make up stories to support their cause. They claim some moral high ground. In the case of the War Between the States this is an ex post facto claim since, again, Lincoln specifically said he was not interested in ending slavery and fighting to preserve the union. When the war did in some way become about slavery, after the Emancipation Procolomation in 1863 which did not free slaves in the Union, there were draft riots in NYC. The enlightened Yankees started lynching Blacks. They didn't seem so eager to go fight to end slavery. Here's the thing: South Carolina seceded as soon as it was obvious that Lincoln was elected President - three full months before he was even sworn in as President. Why? Because the new Republican Party (which had only been created 4 years prior) was adamantly against slavery, and SC (along with other Southern states) worried that Lincoln would quickly move to abolish the practice. Lincoln himself was more in favor of simply not letting the practice of slavery spread to new territories, figuring that the practice would extinguish itself if not allowed to continue to spread. Now, before the Civil War, slavery had dominated US politics since the drafting of the Constitution - and even beforehand, really, as the Northwest Territory (the area north of the Ohio River, west of the Appalachian mountains, and east of the Mississippi; what would become the states of Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin and the northeastern part of Minnesota) was chartered as having no legal slavery. The framers of the Constitution wrestled over whether slavery would be legal at all; then when it was decided to punt the issue to the future, argued over how slaves would count toward taxation and representation, settling to compromise the matter at 5 slaves = 3 free persons. The Missouri Compromise of 1820, the 1850 Compromise, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and the Dred Scott decision all concerned slavery. By the time the 1850 Compromise was passed, it was obvious that a civil war was probably inevitable. Why? Because every time the issue came up again in Congress, the South demanded more - threatening secession if they didn't get their way. And the proclaimations of secession specifically stated that slavery was not only a right, but a Divine mandate. Regardless of all this, Lincoln originally fought the Civil War to preserve the Union. He didn't want to abolish slavery at the time because he didn't want to lose the border states (Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, and Deleware). But eventually, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation to cripple the Confederacy.   #135   Apr 24, '16, 4:16 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by exnihilo You're really proving my point. Aggressors make up stories to support their cause. They claim some moral high ground. In the case of the War Between the States this is an ex post facto claim since, again, Lincoln specifically said he was not interested in ending slavery and fighting to preserve the union. When the war did in some way become about slavery, after the Emancipation Procolomation in 1863 which did not free slaves in the Union, there were draft riots in NYC. The enlightened Yankees started lynching Blacks. They didn't seem so eager to go fight to end slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation was issued in September 1862 . As has been pointed out numerous times the south was the aggressor -they started the war . Lincoln did not free the slaves in the north because he had no constitutional power to do so. He freed the slaves jn the rebellious states under the doctrine that they were participating in the southern war effort and accordingly were contrabands of war. It is for this reason that once black regiment started to form in the north they were referred to as "contrabands"     Apr 26, '16, 10:22 am Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Treasury to announce that Hamilton will remain on the $10, Harriet Tubman to be on the $20 Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS No evidence that the Republican Party has changed as you suggest. Merely an unbacked up assertion. The ideals behind the Republican party remain the same, those being the sanctity of individual rights and individual freedoms superseding identity markers such as skin color and sex/sex orientation. The question is whether if Harriet Tubman was born 150 later in America whether she would still hold fast to those ideals of Republicanism which she allied herself with during her lifetime, or whether she would now see more advantage in Identity politics which stress the primacy of identity markers. Who really knows?