Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup

Jul 16, '16, 11:20 pm

Dwyer Regular Member Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic

Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: The head of the Turkish Religious Affairs Directorate, Mehmet Gormez, Orthodox Christian Patriarch Bartholomew I and Hakham Bashi (Chief Rabbi) Ishak Haleva on Saturday issued a joint declaration condemning the coup. “From wherever and whomever it comes, terror and violence cannot be displayed as a legitimate thing and it cannot be supported,” their statement said, adding that “those who have faith within them cannot approve any killing, as murdering a human being is no different than murdering the whole humanity” . . . Rabbi Haleva was the deputy to Rabbi David Asseo for seven years and became the new Hakham Bashi after his death in 2002. As a 7-year-old, he came with his father to Istanbul from Edirne, near Turkey’s western border with Bulgaria and Greece, to study in a Jewish school. As a teenager he studied in a yeshiva in Israel to become a rabbi. According to his acquaintances, Haleva was a prankster in his youth, and he still maintains a humorous, informal manner, peppering his words with folksy Hebrew and Turkish sayings. http://www.jewishpress.com/news/brea...up/2016/07/17/ More on the Hakham Bashi (Chief Rabbi of Turkey): Quote: Hakham Bashi (Ottoman Turkish: حاخامباشی‎, Turkish: Hahambaşı, IPA: [hɑˈhɑm bɑˈʃɯ]) is the Turkish name for the Chief Rabbi of the nation's Jewish community. In the time of the Ottoman Empire it was also used for the chief rabbi of a particular region of the empire, such as Syria or Iraq, though the Hakham Bashi of Constantinople was considered overall head of the Jews of the Empire . . . Because of the size and nature of the Ottoman state, containing a far greater part of the diaspora then any other, the position of Hakham Bashi has been compared to that of the Jewish Exilarch. In the Ottoman Empire, and as such, the Hakham Bashi was the closest thing to an overall Exilarchal authority among Jewry everywhere in the Middle East in early modern times. They held broad powers to legislate, judge and enforce the laws among the Jews in the Ottoman Empire and often sat on the Sultan's divan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakham_Bashi __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)

#2   Jul 17, '16, 12:32 am

adamhovey1988 Regular Member Join Date: February 12, 2015 Posts: 3,745 Religion: Christian-Catholic (Latin), my religion IS my relationship

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer http://www.jewishpress.com/news/brea...up/2016/07/17/ More on the Hakham Bashi (Chief Rabbi of Turkey): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakham_Bashi Good! It needs their condemnation! It is my understanding that civilians were killed in this, and shedding of innocent blood is NEVER justified. __________________ Check out my apologetics channel, subscribe if you'd like https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9E...tsEcLVRezZT9pA My blog http://adamcharleshovey.blogspot.com

#3   Jul 17, '16, 8:04 am

Tim_D Regular Member Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by adamhovey1988 Good! It needs their condemnation! It is my understanding that civilians were killed in this, and shedding of innocent blood is NEVER justified. Just wait until the blood starts flowing when Erdogan starts taking revenge on those who tried to oust him and then maneuvers to tighten and secure his position. He is an Islamist who is rolling back the liberal reforms of Ataturk back in the 1920s that put Turkey on the path to becoming a modern country. With Erdogan in power, his sympathies for ISIS and his hatred for the Kurds, you can expect Turkey to slip back into a being more militant. Also, don't be surprised if Hagia Sophia, which Ataturk turned from a mosque into a museum, becomes an active mosque again under Erdogan and his like minded brethren. They are already preaching the call to prayer from the minarets that were added to Hagia Sophia. It's too bad the coup failed.

#4   Jul 17, '16, 9:11 am

meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,627 Religion: Jewish

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Just wait until the blood starts flowing when Erdogan starts taking revenge on those who tried to oust him and then maneuvers to tighten and secure his position. He is an Islamist who is rolling back the liberal reforms of Ataturk back in the 1920s that put Turkey on the path to becoming a modern country. With Erdogan in power, his sympathies for ISIS and his hatred for the Kurds, you can expect Turkey to slip back into a being more militant. Also, don't be surprised if Hagia Sophia, which Ataturk turned from a mosque into a museum, becomes an active mosque again under Erdogan and his like minded brethren. They are already preaching the call to prayer from the minarets that were added to Hagia Sophia. It's too bad the coup failed. Although I do not condone violence and the shedding of innocent blood, I agree with your sentiments about Erdogan.

#5   Jul 17, '16, 9:15 am

Tim_D Regular Member Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Although I do not condone violence and the shedding of innocent blood, I agree with your sentiments about Erdogan. I just read an article that the suggestion is floating around that Erdogan was behind the coup attempt in order to solidify his position. "The country’s justice minister confirmed that as many as 6,000 people, ranging from commanders to civil servants, have been detained over the incident." He's already worked against the media and judges who do not do his bidding. Sad.

#6   Jul 17, '16, 10:40 am

John Lazarus Regular Member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Posts: 4,563

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D I just read an article that the suggestion is floating around that Erdogan was behind the coup attempt in order to solidify his position. "The country’s justice minister confirmed that as many as 6,000 people, ranging from commanders to civil servants, have been detained over the incident." He's already worked against the media and judges who do not do his bidding. Sad. He purged about 3000 judges from the judiciary, and his popularity has boomed. Even if he wasn't behind it, it may end up being his "Reichstag fire." __________________ "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole." — Vlad II, Voivode of Wallachia

#7   Jul 17, '16, 12:27 pm

Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,710 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Ataturk posited that the army would be the guardian of secular democratic government in Turkey. He knew well how societies composed of Muslims have a tendency toward theocratic authoritarianism as a supposed cure for their society's ills. I don't think there is any serious doubt that Erdogan intends to take Turkey back to an Islamist theocratic state. He also knew the army was the guardian of secular democratic government, which is why he purged the army of its secular-minded officers some time ago. Apparently the concept has not completely died within the armed forces, but it looks like it wasn't strong enough to succeed. Erdogan's seeming success it putting down the revolt is a tragedy. Possibly the Orthodox and Jewish leaders are whistling in the dark. I'm sure it's hazardous, as a religious minority, to seem to be in opposition to Islamist rule in an Islamic country.

#8   Jul 17, '16, 3:57 pm

7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,837 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Ataturk posited that the army would be the guardian of secular democratic government in Turkey. He knew well how societies composed of Muslims have a tendency toward theocratic authoritarianism as a supposed cure for their society's ills. I don't think there is any serious doubt that Erdogan intends to take Turkey back to an Islamist theocratic state. He also knew the army was the guardian of secular democratic government, which is why he purged the army of its secular-minded officers some time ago. Apparently the concept has not completely died within the armed forces, but it looks like it wasn't strong enough to succeed. Erdogan's seeming success it putting down the revolt is a tragedy. Possibly the Orthodox and Jewish leaders are whistling in the dark. I'm sure it's hazardous, as a religious minority, to seem to be in opposition to Islamist rule in an Islamic country. I agree. I think many are walking on eggshells. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139

#9   Jul 17, '16, 11:42 pm

Athanasiy Regular Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Ataturk posited that the army would be the guardian of secular democratic government in Turkey. He knew well how societies composed of Muslims have a tendency toward theocratic authoritarianism as a supposed cure for their society's ills. I don't think there is any serious doubt that Erdogan intends to take Turkey back to an Islamist theocratic state. He also knew the army was the guardian of secular democratic government, which is why he purged the army of its secular-minded officers some time ago. Apparently the concept has not completely died within the armed forces, but it looks like it wasn't strong enough to succeed. Erdogan's seeming success it putting down the revolt is a tragedy. Possibly the Orthodox and Jewish leaders are whistling in the dark. I'm sure it's hazardous, as a religious minority, to seem to be in opposition to Islamist rule in an Islamic country. Imagine to what chaos Turkey could turn? There might be a protracted war and devastation. The Kurds have long been waiting for an opportunity. There is a part of Turkey which is hardly controlled by Erdogan's government. Dreamers of changes often dream of one and all is wrapped completely different for the suffering people. The worst thing on this earth is a protracted war and devastation in which innocent people are suffering, and after the change of regime can get much worst life and far worse existence... Last edited by Athanasiy; Jul 17, '16 at 11:54 pm.

#10   Jul 18, '16, 3:14 am

hasantas Regular Member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Just wait until the blood starts flowing when Erdogan starts taking revenge on those who tried to oust him and then maneuvers to tighten and secure his position. He is an Islamist who is rolling back the liberal reforms of Ataturk back in the 1920s that put Turkey on the path to becoming a modern country. With Erdogan in power, his sympathies for ISIS and his hatred for the Kurds, you can expect Turkey to slip back into a being more militant. Also, don't be surprised if Hagia Sophia, which Ataturk turned from a mosque into a museum, becomes an active mosque again under Erdogan and his like minded brethren. They are already preaching the call to prayer from the minarets that were added to Hagia Sophia. It's too bad the coup failed. If someone do not approve politics of Erdoğan so should not they organize a poitical party and campaign through politics? Most of people vote for Erdoğan which prove that he is on the right way. Yes Erdoğan may have some faults but generally he is good. He has no any sympathy for ISIS. Kurds have some propblems in Turkey and I think Turks and goverment should retrieval that issue as soon as possible otherwise it will harm Turkey very much. Erdoğan tried too much to advance in issue but unfortunately the process ceased. The most unfortunate point is that the group which attempt coup is Islamic! I think that group should act in politics but they must not use Islam for their politic goals. I know the importance of Hagia Sophia for Christians but that is interest in Turkish goverment. After drawing back of Ottoman most of Mosques got destroyed in Europe. Will Europeans build those Mosques back?

#11   Jul 18, '16, 1:20 pm

Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Just wait until the blood starts flowing when Erdogan starts taking revenge on those who tried to oust him and then maneuvers to tighten and secure his position. He is an Islamist who is rolling back the liberal reforms of Ataturk back in the 1920s that put Turkey on the path to becoming a modern country. With Erdogan in power, his sympathies for ISIS and his hatred for the Kurds, you can expect Turkey to slip back into a being more militant. Also, don't be surprised if Hagia Sophia, which Ataturk turned from a mosque into a museum, becomes an active mosque again under Erdogan and his like minded brethren. They are already preaching the call to prayer from the minarets that were added to Hagia Sophia. It's too bad the coup failed. He's on track to make that happen. He's considering bringing back the death penalty. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/18/europe...oup/index.html Hundreds if not thousands have been arrested and accused of treason including 1/3 of the entire military command.

#12   Jul 18, '16, 1:27 pm

Cider Regular Member Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2007 Posts: 4,817

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup You thought there was ever a chance that they wouldn't? Look at the consequences if they appeared to be supporting it.

#13   Jul 18, '16, 1:30 pm

Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Cider You thought there was ever a chance that they wouldn't? Look at the consequences if they appeared to be supporting it. Well their path into the EU ends if they do.

#14   Jul 18, '16, 1:38 pm

Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup They should support the coup if they want to stop oppression from the semi-fascist government of Turkey.

#15   Jul 18, '16, 1:39 pm

7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,837 Religion: Catholic

Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 He's on track to make that happen. He's considering bringing back the death penalty. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/18/europe...oup/index.html Hundreds if not thousands have been arrested and accused of treason including 1/3 of the entire military command. I thought 6-10, 000 had been rounded up. where would they hold them all? __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139  Jul 18, '16, 1:48 pm Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows I thought 6-10, 000 had been rounded up. where would they hold them all? In warehouses apparently?   #17   Jul 18, '16, 11:24 pm Athanasiy Regular Member Join Date: February 16, 2007 Posts: 1,918 Religion: Roman-Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Turkey can say ''goodbye'' to the visa-free regime with EU, thanks to Erdogan   #18   Jul 19, '16, 7:31 am Cider Regular Member Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2007 Posts: 4,817 Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Well their path into the EU ends if they do. huh? The thread is about religious leaders statements against the attempted coup. They have no power over joining the EU.   #19   Jul 19, '16, 7:34 am Cider Regular Member Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2007 Posts: 4,817 Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas If someone do not approve politics of Erdoğan so should not they organize a poitical party and campaign through politics? Most of people vote for Erdoğan which prove that he is on the right way. Yes Erdoğan may have some faults but generally he is good. He has no any sympathy for ISIS. Kurds have some propblems in Turkey and I think Turks and goverment should retrieval that issue as soon as possible otherwise it will harm Turkey very much. Erdoğan tried too much to advance in issue but unfortunately the process ceased. The most unfortunate point is that the group which attempt coup is Islamic! I think that group should act in politics but they must not use Islam for their politic goals. I know the importance of Hagia Sophia for Christians but that is interest in Turkish goverment. After drawing back of Ottoman most of Mosques got destroyed in Europe. Will Europeans build those Mosques back? Are you serious? That's your defense of the actions done to the Hagia Sophia? Those people did this, so we can do it to. That's the type of excuse a 5 year old gives.   #20   Jul 19, '16, 7:34 am Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Cider huh? The thread is about religious leaders statements against the attempted coup. They have no power over joining the EU. Not necessarily, but please go back a page and read the progression of the thread discussion.   #21   Jul 19, '16, 12:26 pm hasantas Regular Member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 They should support the coup if they want to stop oppression from the semi-fascist government of Turkey. People in Turkey have very certain opinions that USA support coup. But USA claim to support democracy! Why do you have double standard? If goverment is wrong so people know how they can abolish that goverment. The elections is most right way.   #22   Jul 19, '16, 12:33 pm Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas People in Turkey have very certain opinions that USA support coup. But USA claim to support democracy! Why do you have double standard? If goverment is wrong so people know how they can abolish that goverment. The elections is most right way. I think what you're seeing is that in some areas democracy has led people to elect governments that from a certain perspective are repressive and even dangerous, particularly when they're Islamist. It's frankly a bit confusing from a western perspective to elect a government that would work to roll back reforms and basic freedoms that many in the west and other parts of the world hold so dear. Edrogan's government is seen to an extent to be one of those types of governments in some circles, hence you see some in the west that were torn on who to support in the recent coup. That said, officially the US supported the legitimately elected government of Turkey just as the local religious leaders did.   #23   Jul 19, '16, 12:47 pm hasantas Regular Member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 I think what you're seeing is that in some areas democracy has led people to elect governments that from a certain perspective are repressive and even dangerous, particularly when they're Islamist. It's frankly a bit confusing from a western perspective to elect a government that would work to roll back reforms and basic freedoms that many in the west and other parts of the world hold so dear. Edrogan's government is seen to an extent to be one of those types of governments in some circles, hence you see some in the west that were torn on who to support in the recent coup. That said, officially the US supported the legitimately elected government of Turkey just as the local religious leaders did. Was Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt repressive? I think it was dangerous because it do not obey to western powers! US in the begining did not support legitimately elected goverment. You can look at the first statement. When it understood that coup would fail so US said that the legitimately elected goverment should be supported.   #24   Jul 19, '16, 12:54 pm Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Was Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt repressive? I think it was dangerous because it do not obey to western powers! US in the begining did not support legitimately elected goverment. You can look at the first statement. When it understood that coup would fail so US said that the legitimately elected goverment should be supported. In many places in the west and Middle East, yes it was seen as repressive. When it's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state," that is seen as repressive in the west. We value the idea of religion and the state being separate.   #25   Jul 19, '16, 1:20 pm qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 In many places in the west and Middle East, yes it was seen as repressive. When it's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state," that is seen as repressive in the west. We value the idea of religion and the state being separate. That's not quite correct. We value the state not impinging on the freedom of free exercise of religion in the public square. __________________ Christine   #26   Jul 19, '16, 1:25 pm Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce That's not quite correct. We value the state not impinging on the freedom of free exercise of religion in the public square. Well as part of that we value one religion not imposing its views on the other members of society through the state as much as possible. Because to do so impinges on the free exercise you mention.   #27   Jul 19, '16, 1:29 pm qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Well as part of that we value one religion not imposing its views on the other members of society through the state as much as possible. Because to do so impinges on the free exercise you mention. Yes, you are right. Just wanted to clarify the Constitution does not call for "separation" of church and state. __________________ Christine   #28   Jul 19, '16, 1:41 pm Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce Yes, you are right. Just wanted to clarify the Constitution does not call for "separation" of church and state. Well effectively it does since religious involvement with the state tends to lead to the a fore mentioned impingement. Regardless, we don't support the idea of de facto theocracy, which is what Islamists like the Muslim brotherhood's ultimate goal would be based on their own stated intentions.   #29   Jul 19, '16, 3:02 pm Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas People in Turkey have very certain opinions that USA support coup. But USA claim to support democracy! Why do you have double standard? If goverment is wrong so people know how they can abolish that goverment. The elections is most right way. The USA is against fascism and oppression, even when it is democratically elected.   #30   Jul 19, '16, 3:45 pm Tim_D Regular Member Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas I know the importance of Hagia Sophia for Christians but that is interest in Turkish goverment. After drawing back of Ottoman most of Mosques got destroyed in Europe. Will Europeans build those Mosques back? Europe was Christian before the muslim invasions that began in the 7th century. Any destruction of mosques in Europe was done as repatriation back to the Christian faith. There is no moral imperative to rebuild any of them. Hagia Sophia was a place of Christian worship that extended back nearly to ancient times. There is a moral and ethical responsibility to give it back to those to whom it belongs by virtue of an unbroken succession of faith. I don't get it; the Blue Mosque isn't far away, is larger and in better shape than Hagia Sophia. Why is it necessary to use Sophia as a mosque? Jul 19, '16, 3:47 pm Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Europe was Christian before the muslim invasions that began in the 7th century. Any destruction of mosques in Europe was done as repatriation back to the Christian faith. There is no moral imperative to rebuild any of them. Hagia Sophia was a place of Christian worship that extended back nearly to ancient times. There is a moral and ethical responsibility to give it back to those to whom it belongs by virtue of an unbroken succession of faith. I don't get it; the Blue Mosque isn't far away, is larger and in better shape than Hagia Sophia. Why is it necessary to use Sophia as a mosque? One word... symbolism. Hagia Sophia being made secular was a strong symbol of the secularization of Turkey. Resuming use as a mosque would be an equally potent symbol of Edrogan's seeming desire to roll back secularization.   #32   Jul 20, '16, 4:58 am hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce That's not quite correct. We value the state not impinging on the freedom of free exercise of religion in the public square. Everything is belong to God. Is there anything which is not creature of God? All people are cterature of God so God organise puclic area. You have so doubts as if God wish people to get trouble. The laws of God make it easy and more worthwile and light for both the life on the world and life to come. That is why followers of Muhammad are called Muslims(people who submit laws of God). But it seems the religious laws conflict with comfort of worldly pleasures. Do not forget nobody will stand for ever on the world. The actual life is the life to come. So we should organize our life according to it.   #33   Jul 20, '16, 5:14 am hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Europe was Christian before the muslim invasions that began in the 7th century. Any destruction of mosques in Europe was done as repatriation back to the Christian faith. There is no moral imperative to rebuild any of them. Hagia Sophia was a place of Christian worship that extended back nearly to ancient times. There is a moral and ethical responsibility to give it back to those to whom it belongs by virtue of an unbroken succession of faith. I don't get it; the Blue Mosque isn't far away, is larger and in better shape than Hagia Sophia. Why is it necessary to use Sophia as a mosque? It was symbol of conquest. There are enough Churchs in Turkey for Christians. Muslims do not destroy Churchs.   #34   Jul 20, '16, 8:54 am Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Everything is belong to God. Is there anything which is not creature of God? All people are cterature of God so God organise puclic area. You have so doubts as if God wish people to get trouble. The laws of God make it easy and more worthwile and light for both the life on the world and life to come. That is why followers of Muhammad are called Muslims(people who submit laws of God). But it seems the religious laws conflict with comfort of worldly pleasures. Do not forget nobody will stand for ever on the world. The actual life is the life to come. So we should organize our life according to it. Which God? There in lies the problem. I presume you're referring to the Muslim God, but what of those that don't believe in your God? Why should they have to submit themselves to Muslim law? What if Muslim law is contrary to what their own religion believes? Heck, what if they're Muslim but have a different interpretation of Muslim law?   #35   Jul 20, '16, 1:33 pm qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas It was symbol of conquest. There are enough Churchs in Turkey for Christians. Muslims do not destroy Churchs. http://shoebat.com/2014/01/24/muslim...tian-churches/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kJn-ZP7QSA Do you want more? __________________ Christine   #36   Jul 20, '16, 1:38 pm qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Everything is belong to God. Is there anything which is not creature of God? All people are cterature of God so God organise puclic area. You have so doubts as if God wish people to get trouble. The laws of God make it easy and more worthwile and light for both the life on the world and life to come. That is why followers of Muhammad are called Muslims(people who submit laws of God). But it seems the religious laws conflict with comfort of worldly pleasures. Do not forget nobody will stand for ever on the world. The actual life is the life to come. So we should organize our life according to it. Yes, everything belongs to God. Christians follow Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity. Christians believe in free will. Forced belief is not true belief. US Constitution allows people to freely choose whether or not to believe. The US Constitution allows people to freely worship in the public area. In the US, people are free to be Muslim, Christian, or any number of religions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edc4NNggj-w __________________ Christine   #37   Jul 20, '16, 3:23 pm hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Which God? There in lies the problem. I presume you're referring to the Muslim God, but what of those that don't believe in your God? Why should they have to submit themselves to Muslim law? What if Muslim law is contrary to what their own religion believes? Heck, what if they're Muslim but have a different interpretation of Muslim law? Creator of universe is unique. There is an absolute union in universe which prove that Creator is one. Muslim know that People of Book's God is one and unique God who Muslim call Allah. I do not say every one should submit Muslim law. Christians should perform their religion and faith in every part of life. That should not be restricted because of secularism. You have prejudice for Islam which point that you do not know Islam. Every one is free to interpret religion and it is usual.   #38   Jul 20, '16, 3:30 pm hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce Yes, everything belongs to God. Christians follow Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity. Christians believe in free will. Forced belief is not true belief. US Constitution allows people to freely choose whether or not to believe. The US Constitution allows people to freely worship in the public area. In the US, people are free to be Muslim, Christian, or any number of religions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edc4NNggj-w Ha forced belief! Can you say anything which conflict with Church? But you must be very free! Do you believe that there is a police for every one to make he/she believer? People can see the fact in belief of Islam.   #39   Jul 20, '16, 3:32 pm Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Ha forced belief! Can you say anything which conflict with Church? But you must be very free! Do you believe that there is a police for every one to make he/she believer? People can see the fact in belief of Islam. Yes. We can. That's what freedom of religion entails. We can run counter to your faith and even our own if we so choose.   #40   Jul 20, '16, 3:37 pm Tim_D Regular Member   Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas It was symbol of conquest. There are enough Churchs in Turkey for Christians. Muslims do not destroy Churchs. Oh? If there are enough churches for Christians in Turkey then there are bound to be more than enough mosques for muslims. A symbol of conquest, indeed. I guess that we can say that any mosque destroyed in Europe was done as a "symbol of conquest," yes? Also, muslims do destroy churches. It is far too easy to find examples of it.   #41   Jul 20, '16, 3:50 pm hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce http://shoebat.com/2014/01/24/muslim...tian-churches/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kJn-ZP7QSA Do you want more? There may be individual cases because of political issues but generally Muslims do not destroy Churchs. In Qur'an it is said that name of God is mentioned in Churchs: 40- [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right – only because they say, “Our Lord is Allah.” And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. al-Hajj(22)   #42   Jul 20, '16, 6:49 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,492 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas It was symbol of conquest. There are enough Churchs in Turkey for Christians. Muslims do not destroy Churchs. There certainly are, because there are hardly any Christians left in Turkey after the main remaining groups that were mainly Christian strangely vanished from Turkey around about the time of the end of the WW2. I have heard they were relocated among other shall we say 'interesting' claims.   #43   Jul 20, '16, 7:31 pm Tim_D Regular Member   Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian There certainly are, because there are hardly any Christians left in Turkey after the main remaining groups that were mainly Christian strangely vanished from Turkey around about the time of the end of the WW2. I have heard they were relocated among other shall we say 'interesting' claims. At the end of World War I, Christians made up 50% of Constantinople. Today, less than 2%. If muslims are so accommodating, then why the decrease?   #44   Jul 21, '16, 2:44 am hasantas Regular Member   Join Date: February 13, 2014 Posts: 1,420 Religion: İslam Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D At the end of World War I, Christians made up 50% of Constantinople. Today, less than 2%. If muslims are so accommodating, then why the decrease? 50 % of Istanbul were Christians! Where from did you take that?   #45   Jul 21, '16, 3:40 am JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,492 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Possibly from the Ottoman official census for 1914 which lists roughly half the inhabitants of Istanbul for 1914 as Greek or Armenian. Most of them went on an extended vacation after that oddly enough.      Jul 21, '16, 4:34 am Tim_D Regular Member   Join Date: July 1, 2015 Posts: 2,889 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Much like Bethlehem, which used to have a sizable Christian community that has now been depleted to single digits. So much for islamic accommodation.   #47   Jul 21, '16, 6:34 am Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian Possibly from the Ottoman official census for 1914 which lists roughly half the inhabitants of Istanbul for 1914 as Greek or Armenian. Most of them went on an extended vacation after that oddly enough. Something tells me that little nugget isn't well disseminated in modern education in some corners of the world.   #48   Jul 21, '16, 6:51 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D Much like Bethlehem, which used to have a sizable Christian community that has now been depleted to single digits. So much for islamic accommodation. This is more due to Israeli policies. There is a fence around Bethlehem similar to the Berlin Wall. Christians are lumped with Muslims, as both are classified as Arabs, unfortunately, and suffer as a result of Arab violence. Arabs in the Palestinian area have vowed to wipe out Israel and perform many violent and terrorist attacks against Israelis. I was there in 2014 and have seen it myself. We couldn't go to Cana because an Arab attacked the police with a knife and the Arab was killed. The Arabs retaliated by setting cars on fire. Then another Arab attacked and killed a man in the metro station in Jerusalem by running his car into the crowd. This two incidents happened within the 12 days I was there. There are many, many similar incidents like these going on constantly. __________________ Christine   #49   Jul 21, '16, 6:55 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Ha forced belief! Can you say anything which conflict with Church? But you must be very free! I freely choose to follow the tenets of my Catholic faith. This is very liberating for me! Quote: Originally Posted by hasantas Do you believe that there is a police for every one to make he/she believer? People can see the fact in belief of Islam. Not sure what you mean by the above statement. I have read that there are forced conversions in many parts of the Muslim world. There is the famously sad incident of the 30 men beheaded in Libya for refusing to convert. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...ans-Libya.html __________________ Christine   #50   Jul 21, '16, 4:42 pm JharekCarnelian Forum Elder   Join Date: April 14, 2008 Posts: 30,492 Religion: Catholic Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Something tells me that little nugget isn't well disseminated in modern education in some corners of the world. Something tells me you are likely right. I've had this discussion before and been told a 'few Christians who were 'troublesome' were 'relocated' and other er, interesting takes on this subject.   #51   Jul 21, '16, 9:26 pm Darryl1958 Forum Master   Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 14,260 Religion: Unlisted Re: Turkish Chief Rabbi, Muslim, Christian Leaders Condemn Coup Quote: Originally Posted by Tim_D At the end of World War I, Christians made up 50% of Constantinople. Today, less than 2%. If muslims are so accommodating, then why the decrease? Those numbers don't lie. Neither do the number of Churches destroyed in Iraq, that have been brushed off as a few cases. Ask the Copts to see if these numbers are outliers. There will always be excuses as to why we still ought to think of Islam as the modrate Religion of Peace though. Everybody is still on the Apology Tour train.