Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion IRC
California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools??
Good!
Then maybe they will learn what the gay movement was saying about that
out-dated, prudish institution called marriage back in the 70's when the
nuclear family started to disintegrate.
They didn't think much of life-long fidelity and monogamy either.
#hypocrisy
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You think they'll teach them how rampant promiscuity led to the deaths of 10s of thousands of homosexuals ?
Jul 15, '16, 5:04 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
You think they'll teach them how rampant promiscuity led to the deaths of 10s of thousands of homosexuals ?
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Or that AIDS patient zero was a promiscuous homosexual man who worked as a flight attendant?
I wonder if they'll show the kids the original Cage Aux Folles to reveal what is in store for them if they associate with homosexuals?
Or mention that male homosexuality is the leading cause of death from sexually transmitted diseases?
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Jul 15, '16, 5:21 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne S
How do you defend the revisionist history our kids have had shoved down heir throats for the past forty years?
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Don't let school get in the way of their education. Nurture and
cultivate their innate curiousity to motivate them to seek out
information themselves and seek out other perspectives. Help them
experience the joy of learning something new. Then their knowledge won't
be limited to filtered and selective perspectives.
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Jul 15, '16, 5:23 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearWater
What tragic news.  |
Agreed, but it's the inevitable consequence of government-led
education: they get to call the shots. The current Indian government has
conveniently "deleted" certain important historical figures (including
our first Prime Minister )
from some of their "official" school textbooks, because they don't see
eye-to-eye. It's still not as bad as LGBT history, though. What will
they have to do, write essays on the Stonewall Riots? 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfengr
Better LGBT history than silly, trivial subjects that have no practical application, like Math or Physics or Chemistry......
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And especially biology, an outdated subject which is repugnant to
the truths of the LGBT movement, especially the "T" part of it. 
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Jul 15, '16, 6:43 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady
I guess you would have benefited from this curriculum.
The way I see it, if what you teach your kids can't stand up to factual
information about a large, very relevant social movement, then perhaps
you should reconsider what you're teaching them.
I'm always suspicious of people who don't want knowledge to touch them
or their families. That hinders critical thinking, among other issues.
Even in grade school, I want my kids to learn about different religions,
but I never want them evangelized and I wouldn't allow the latter. |
I'm curious, would you want your children to learn about the Ku Klux Klan and its values in grade, middle and high school?
It too was a very large and powerful social movement that campaigned for political and social reform.
__________________
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Jul 15, '16, 6:50 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
Since LGBT "history" is of rather recent vintage, I suspect that a great deal of it will have to be fabricated.
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It isn't history, It's contributions. You'd be surprised at how many LGTB contributions there are.
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Jul 15, '16, 6:53 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne S
How do you defend the revisionist history our kids have had shoved down heir throats for the past forty years?
Knowledge of actual facts is one thing,but fairy tales is an all together different story.
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Like what? I am really interested.
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Jul 15, '16, 6:56 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
I'm curious, would you want your children to learn about the Ku Klux Klan and its values in grade, middle and high school?
It too was a very large and powerful social movement that campaigned for political and social reform.
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Personally, I would like my kids to be knowledgeable about the
KKK. Why wouldn't I? How do you learn from history if you don't know
history?
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Jul 15, '16, 7:22 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
It isn't history, It's contributions. You'd be surprised at how many LGTB contributions there are.
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What contributions? Yes I am sure that people who engage in
homosexual behavior had made some positive contributions but that has
nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual behavior . Are we going to be
teaching children the contributions of adulterous people?
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Jul 15, '16, 7:29 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
What contributions? Yes I am sure that
people who engage in homosexual behavior had made some positive
contributions but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual
behavior . Are we going to be teaching children the contributions of
adulterous people?
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I thought the LGBT movement wanted equality. That is why it's
difficult to understand why as noted above they want their achievements
attached to their gender/sexual identity.
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Jul 15, '16, 7:35 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
What contributions? Yes I am sure that
people who engage in homosexual behavior had made some positive
contributions but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual
behavior . Are we going to be teaching children the contributions of
adulterous people?
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Because they have made significant contributions and have been in
one of the categories of the LGBT movement. We don't celebrate the
accomplishments because of, but rather in spite of. When we categorize
this group as adulterous, it diminishes them. Wouldn't you agree?
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Jul 15, '16, 7:38 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Because they have made significant
contributions and have been in one of the categories of the LGBT
movement. We don't celebrate the accomplishments because of, but rather
in spite of. When we categorize this group as adulterous, it diminishes
them. Wouldn't you agree?
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Their sexual behavior diminishes them.
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Jul 15, '16, 7:41 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Their sexual behavior diminishes them.
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Isn't that true for heterosexuals too?
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Jul 15, '16, 11:50 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Isn't that true for heterosexuals too?
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No.
Marriage is still a sacrament.
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Jul 15, '16, 11:52 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
What contributions? Yes I am sure that
people who engage in homosexual behavior had made some positive
contributions but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual
behavior . Are we going to be teaching children the contributions of
adulterous people?
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The contributions of adulterers like JFK and MLK are outstanding, in spite of their adultery though, and not because of it.
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Jul 16, '16, 3:58 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
No.
Marriage is still a sacrament.
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Yet certainly adultery committed within a sacramental marriage diminishes the one committing the act.
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Jul 16, '16, 4:03 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
What contributions? Yes I am sure that
people who engage in homosexual behavior had made some positive
contributions but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual
behavior . Are we going to be teaching children the contributions of
adulterous people?
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The contributions of blacks seemingly would have "nothing
whatsoever" to do with their race. Yet we highlight them. The
contributions of women seemingly would have "nothing whatsoever" to do
with their sex. Yet we highlight them. As Good Tidings explained, we do
so in spite of not because of.
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Jul 16, '16, 4:57 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
The contributions of blacks seemingly
would have "nothing whatsoever" to do with their race. Yet we highlight
them. The contributions of women seemingly would have "nothing
whatsoever" to do with their sex. Yet we highlight them. As Good Tidings
explained, we do so in spite of not because of.
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And I am still not sure why we care about these irrelevant
factors. I remember when I was ten years old, they had a section in our
newspaper highlighting women entrepreneurs. I asked my mother why we
care whether a business owner is a man or a woman, the most important
thing is whether what they offer gives the best value relative to the
price. I do business with people, not because of their skin pigmentation
or their chromosomes, but because of the value they bring to the
relationship. My university department is one of the most diverse on
campus and the interesting thing is, 90% of us could care less about
diversity. We just hire the best we can find. We tend to bring other
reading to do during the mandatory affirmative action meetings.
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Jul 16, '16, 4:57 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Isn't that true for heterosexuals too?
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Which is why I mentioned adultery. But then no one is suggesting that schools teach accomplishments of adulterers
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Jul 16, '16, 4:58 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
The contributions of adulterers like JFK and MLK are outstanding, in spite of their adultery though, and not because of it.
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So we teach our students about them do we highlight their adultery?
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Jul 16, '16, 5:01 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
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“a study of the role of contributions” the framework states, as well as
struggles in California from the 1970s to the present day to affirm the
right of gay people to teach and to get married.
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Should do a complete history so kids have a wider scope of what's
going on in the world past and into the future..................
Quote:
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It allows all students to think critically and expansively about how
that past relates to the present and future roles that they can play in
an inclusive and respectful society,”
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As we see because we are interconnected change happens rapidly
today. The question should never be a matter of likes or dislikes but
human respect. All people have a need to be accepted. The refusal of
that simply creates hurt in the end. However, as I was saying, change
happens quick and this all may die just as quick in the USA. So these
children will grow without bias yet understand world implications that
our social experiment in truth may fail.
Course the success of the project also is in how American history is
taught. Consider that all people are prejudice so its very easy for the
teaching to be not inclusive and respectful but jaded.
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Jul 16, '16, 5:07 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Our kids math skills stink, their writing is horrible, but this is where we put more effort?
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Jul 16, '16, 5:10 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
So we teach our students about them do we highlight their adultery?
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Why would we?
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Jul 16, '16, 5:14 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Why would we?
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So what you're saying is that immoral behavior is not something that should be highlighted?
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Jul 16, '16, 5:18 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
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LGBT content will be included in some elementary, middle and high school
grades. In fourth grade, for example, students would learn about “the
emergence of the nation’s first gay rights organizations in the 1950s,”
the framework states, as well as struggles in California from the 1970s
to the present day to affirm the right of gay people to teach and to get
married.
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I don't understand the point of teaching this all stuff in
elementary school. Do most elementary school children even grasp the
concepts of sexuality/sexual preferences?
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Jul 16, '16, 5:19 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
So what you're saying is that immoral behavior is not something that should be highlighted?
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Good point, we should allow children to figure out moral ethics
for themselves with a constitution not based on Christian values in
American History? One might suggest we are already starting out on a
bias lie.
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Jul 16, '16, 5:29 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady
The way I see it, if what you teach your
kids can't stand up to factual information about a large, very relevant
social movement, then perhaps you should reconsider what you're teaching
them.
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I can see teaching about the movement in context of current
events, as long as no bias pro or con could be attached to it, like you
would teach the issue of immigration, or gun control. There may even be
some here that would trust the public school to teach this factual
without spinning it as a positive. I am simply not one.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
 Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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Jul 16, '16, 5:31 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
So what you're saying is that immoral behavior is not something that should be highlighted?
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What do you know about the immoral behavior of our founding
fathers? Did their escapades hinder their ability to found a new nation?
I don't understand your point.
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Jul 16, '16, 5:35 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
What do you know about the immoral
behavior of our founding fathers? Did their escapades hinder their
ability to found a new nation? I don't understand your point.
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My point is, that if our founding fathers did something important,
what they did is relevant to be discussed. If they did immoral things,
or liked chocolate ice cream, that is not particularly relevant.
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Jul 16, '16, 5:53 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
My point is, that if our founding fathers
did something important, what they did is relevant to be discussed. If
they did immoral things, or liked chocolate ice cream, that is not
particularly relevant.
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I agree with you here.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:00 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Which is why I mentioned adultery. But then no one is suggesting that schools teach accomplishments of adulterers
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Bill Clinton gets more time in your average history book than Abraham Lincoln.....
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Jul 16, '16, 7:23 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
And I am still not sure why we care about these irrelevant factors.
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Because at least with some groups, individuals from them had to
work much harder and deal with far more adversity to actually accomplish
something.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:26 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javan
I don't understand the point of teaching
this all stuff in elementary school. Do most elementary school children
even grasp the concepts of sexuality/sexual preferences?
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My oldest is 8 and by necessity she understands that some men
marry other men while some women marry other women. She understands that
there are sacramental marriages and civil marriages. We encounter
enough gay and lesbian couples that it was necessary to answer her
questions.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:27 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfengr
Better LGBT history than silly, trivial subjects that have no practical application, like Math or Physics or Chemistry......
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The way math, physics, and chemistry is taught by many suggests
these subjects really do not have any practical application. Just ask
students.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:27 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javan
I don't understand the point of teaching
this all stuff in elementary school. Do most elementary school children
even grasp the concepts of sexuality/sexual preferences?
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Where else could children be indoctrinated? It's not like they
would learn about their long history of their gay ancestors at home. My
interest in history led me to spend a lot of my time in retirement on
genealogy. The family trees of LBGT people seem to terminate rather
quickly for some reason.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:29 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
This is why my daughter, who teaches elementary school in California, opted for a much lower salary at a Catholic school.
__________________
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Jul 16, '16, 7:31 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Because at least with some groups,
individuals from them had to work much harder and deal with far more
adversity to actually accomplish something.
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That applies to people from every demographic group. A white boy
from Appalachia who goes on to get a Ph.D in biochemistry likely had to
face discrimination and hardship as well. The question is, of what
relevance is this to anyone? When I patronize a business, I could care
less whether the owner is white, black, male or female. What I care
about is the value proposition. Where can I get the best deal. Same
thing when I hire people, I could care less about their skin
pigmentation or where they were born, but the value proposition that
they bring to the department.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:32 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
My point is, that if our founding fathers
did something important, what they did is relevant to be discussed. If
they did immoral things, or liked chocolate ice cream, that is not
particularly relevant.
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I think at a certain age it is important to learn about
Jefferson's relationship to slavery. Or Washington's. These are complex
human men and it's appropriate to acknowledge that, especially when
considering why slavery was permitted in our nation.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:34 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
That applies to people from every
demographic group. A white boy from Appalachia who goes on to get a Ph.D
in biochemistry likely had to face discrimination and hardship as well.
The question is, of what relevance is this to anyone? When I patronize a
business, I could care less whether the owner is white, black, male or
female. What I care about is the value proposition. Where can I get the
best deal. Same thing when I hire people, I could care less about their
skin pigmentation or where they were born, but the value proposition
that they bring to the department.
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I'm really not interested in having a discussion about why the
claim "I'm color blind" is so very problematic and why women and
minorities experience forms of discrimination that white men, no matter
where they're from, never will. But the internet can correct many myths
about these topics...
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Jul 16, '16, 7:42 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I'm really not interested in having a
discussion about why the claim "I'm color blind" is so very problematic
and why women and minorities experience forms of discrimination that
white men, no matter where they're from, never will. But the internet
can correct many myths about these topics...
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Actually, white men experience forms of discrimination as well. I
have seen less qualified women hired at universities over more qualified
men. For example, I remember one department hired a women primarily to
add "diversity", whatever that means. That woman never could get
promoted to full professor, not because of discrimination, but because
she could not publish even one journal article. She couldn't publish one
article, because she would never even submit anything to a journal. Her
children were grown and out of the house, so she had no excuse for not
submitting anything.
So I am not really interested in people telling me that discrimination against white men never occurs.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:42 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Regardless of how loud the howls from the PC crowd are, one look at high
ranking elected and appointed officials around the US quickly tells us
that America in 2016 is in fact pretty color blind.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:44 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
So I am not really interested in people telling me that discrimination against white men never occurs.
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That's great. Because I didn't.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:44 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Which is why I mentioned adultery. But then no one is suggesting that schools teach accomplishments of adulterers
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They do teach the accomplishments of adulterers like MLK and JFK. They just don't attach the accomplishment to the adultery.
They should do the same for LGBT.
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Jul 16, '16, 7:45 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
That's great. Because I didn't.
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Do you support discrimination?
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Jul 16, '16, 7:47 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Do you support discrimination?
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Jul 16, '16, 7:47 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
Where else could children be
indoctrinated? It's not like they would learn about their long history
of their gay ancestors at home. My interest in history led me to spend a
lot of my time in retirement on genealogy. The family trees of LBGT
people seem to terminate rather quickly for some reason.
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The family trees of LGBT do not terminate as many of them do get
married and have children. Marriage is still pushed rather strongly in
this world.
Jul 16, '16, 7:48 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
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The reason I ask is that there are many people, primarily people
who vote for democrats who are very much in favor of discrimination. Are
you one of those people?
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Jul 16, '16, 7:48 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I'm really not interested in having a
discussion about why the claim "I'm color blind" is so very problematic
and why women and minorities experience forms of discrimination that
white men, no matter where they're from, never will. But the internet
can correct many myths about these topics...
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What about poverty and discrimination which involves all people,
not important today? The UN report clearly puts this myth to rest.
Quote:
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Research indicates that people living in poverty are subjected
increasingly and disproportionately to a range of administrative and
legal policy measures that seek to criminalize, penalize, segregate and
surveil them because of their situation. Such measures include laws that
explicitly target people living in poverty (e.g., laws prohibiting
vagrancy, begging and panhandling), and laws and regulations that are
used disproportionately against people living in poverty (e.g., measures
that prohibit actions such as sleeping, drinking and bathing in public
spaces). The penalization of people living in poverty also occurs in
welfare systems, where discriminatory attitudes translate into unfair
and unequal welfare measures that interfere in the lives of people
living in poverty (e.g., onerous conditionalities, over-policing) and,
through processes of detention, incarceration and institutionalization,
which have a disproportionate detrimental impact on the lives of people
living in poverty. These policies not only fail to address the root
causes of poverty and the multiple deprivations that people living in
poverty face, but also they serve to further increase stigmatization of
and discrimination against the poor, and deepen their social exclusion.
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http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pover...OfPoverty.aspx
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Jul 16, '16, 7:57 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Another reason I'm glad I live in Texas
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Jul 16, '16, 8:04 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
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One of the problems with those who scream the most about
discrimination is that they use little data and when they do, the use it
wrongly. They presume that the daughter of a billionaire faces more
discrimination than a poor white boy from Appalachia. You will never see
them present facts.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:11 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
The reason I ask is that there are many
people, primarily people who vote for democrats who are very much in
favor of discrimination. Are you one of those people?
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Wow, that's quite a generalization. I suppose you can draw whatever conclusions about me you'd like.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:16 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Another reason I'm glad I live in Texas
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__________________
As each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God's varied grace. 1 Peter 4:10
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Jul 16, '16, 8:16 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Wow, that's quite a generalization. I suppose you can draw whatever conclusions about me you'd like.
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I haven't drawn any conclusions. I was just asking a question to
try and understand where you are coming from. You have a problem with
that?
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Jul 16, '16, 8:23 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
I haven't drawn any conclusions. I was
just asking a question to try and understand where you are coming from.
You have a problem with that?
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Asking someone if she agrees with discrimination sounds
disingenuous, as though you're baiting. I don't know if that's what's
happening, of course, but I'd prefer not to engage with such questions.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:26 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
One of the problems with those who scream
the most about discrimination is that they use little data and when
they do, the use it wrongly. They presume that the daughter of a
billionaire faces more discrimination than a poor white boy from
Appalachia. You will never see them present facts.
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How about a poor black girl from Mississipi and a poor white boy from Appalachia. Who faces more discrimination?
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Jul 16, '16, 8:27 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Asking someone if she agrees with
discrimination sounds disingenuous, as though you're baiting. I don't
know if that's what's happening, of course, but I'd prefer not to engage
with such questions.
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You certainly are not obligated to answer any questions. It is
just that in my work environment, I happen to work with people who are
openly racist and sexist. They are also liberals, the least racist and
sexist people at my place of employment tend to be the conservatives
ones, but we don't hire many of those.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:29 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
You certainly are not obligated to answer
any questions. It is just that in my work environment, I happen to work
with people who are openly racist and sexist. They are also liberals,
the least racist and sexist people at my place of employment tend to be
the conservatives ones, but we don't hire many of those.
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I don't believe discrimination is partisan.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:31 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
You think they'll teach them how rampant promiscuity led to the deaths of 10s of thousands of homosexuals ?
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Telling things like this will be considered hate speech even though there true.
As Pilot said " what is truth" those in power make the truth,
__________________
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashionable".
G.K. Chesterton ILN 1930
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Jul 16, '16, 8:31 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcelle
How about a poor black girl from Mississipi and a poor white boy from Appalachia. Who faces more discrimination?
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I think we cannot make a summary conclusion one way or another. It
would depend on the issues faced by each individual. That is why
blanket proclamations are bad in this area. There are those who
experience discrimination, there can be no doubt about this. Now the
question that can be raised is what is the best way to deal with this
discrimination? I will tell you, that in my opinion, teaching people who
can barely add and subtract the history of LGBT people will not add
much economic value to their lives. The problem is, the math skills of
our high school graduates are atrocious. In my field, we hire foreign
born people because Americans are not available to take those jobs. This
proposal will not help that.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:32 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I don't believe discrimination is partisan.
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Democrats support explicitly discriminatory policies. That is for sure.
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Jul 16, '16, 8:32 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcelle
How about a poor black girl from Mississipi and a poor white boy from Appalachia. Who faces more discrimination?
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How about a gay white fellow or black living in poverty opposed to
one of either making 200G a year? So would you say there's a degree but
not kind of discrimination? Or would you say the empirical proof needs
to be studied.
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ul 16, '16, 7:34 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
That applies to people from every
demographic group. A white boy from Appalachia who goes on to get a Ph.D
in biochemistry likely had to face discrimination and hardship as well.
The question is, of what relevance is this to anyone? When I patronize a
business, I could care less whether the owner is white, black, male or
female. What I care about is the value proposition. Where can I get the
best deal. Same thing when I hire people, I could care less about their
skin pigmentation or where they were born, but the value proposition
that they bring to the department.
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I'm really not interested in having a discussion about why the
claim "I'm color blind" is so very problematic and why women and
minorities experience forms of discrimination that white men, no matter
where they're from, never will. But the internet can correct many myths
about these topics...
Jul 16, '16, 8:49 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
One more question as it appears as an issue also. Whos discriminated
against "more" in poverty the gay female or male? I would say the male
off the top of my head as to me it seems gay females who live in poverty
are more accepted by society than males? Or is the difference only in
degree but not kind?
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Jul 16, '16, 8:52 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
I think we cannot make a summary
conclusion one way or another. It would depend on the issues faced by
each individual. That is why blanket proclamations are bad in this area.
There are those who experience discrimination, there can be no doubt
about this. Now the question that can be raised is what is the best way
to deal with this discrimination? I will tell you, that in my opinion,
teaching people who can barely add and subtract the history of LGBT
people will not add much economic value to their lives. The problem is,
the math skills of our high school graduates are atrocious. In my field,
we hire foreign born people because Americans are not available to take
those jobs. This proposal will not help that.
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I agree.
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Jul 16, '16, 9:04 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
This provides a bit more specific information on what will be taught, though I think many questions still remain:
Quote:
In the new curriculum, LGBT milestones will pop up in history and social
studies lessons multiple times throughout elementary, middle, and high
school. After the initial introduction about diverse families,
fourth-grade students will learn about the emergence of gay rights
advocacy groups in the 1950s and one of the nation’s first openly gay
public officials, Harvey Milk. In eighth grade, students will learn
about traditional gender norms and groups that rebelled against them
when settling out West in the first half of the 20th century.
A more in-depth analysis comes junior year of high school, with a
history curriculum that looks at attempts to weed out gay and lesbian
service members from the military; surveillance of suspected gay and
lesbian government officials in the 1950s; and police raids on gay bars
in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York City in the 1960s. Students
will also learn about the U.S. Supreme Court decision to legalize
same-sex marriage in 2015.
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I think this is interesting:
Quote:
The changes to the state syllabi have been a long time coming. Equality
California cosponsored the Fair, Accurate, Inclusive, and Respectful
(FAIR) Education Act, which was signed into law in 2012. Its
implementation lagged as conservatives argued that it should be each
family’s choice if and how they teach their children about the LGBT
rights movement.
Those complaints appear to have fallen silent. During an hours-long
public forum this week, several families and educators objected to the
ways religious groups were presented in the proposed educational plans,
The Associated Press reports. No one protested the inclusion of the history of LGBT rights.
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http://www.takepart.com/article/2016...lum-california
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Jul 16, '16, 9:10 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I'm really not interested in having a
discussion about why the claim "I'm color blind" is so very problematic
and why women and minorities experience forms of discrimination that
white men, no matter where they're from, never will. But the internet
can correct many myths about these topics...
|
Grace do you support discrimination, thats what we have further
discussed here, your above point? Simply put thats inaccurate above. I
wouldn't say its a failure of reason here it is in itself a bigotry of
reality compounded by the wide gap proposed and then what is the
expectation desired? To be honest and address reality to achieve a
desired expectation is the path we are failing with. The depth of this
gap has a shallow understanding and fails to address the reality
accurately. Imo. But I been saying this all week with bigotry and
racism.
I suppose I can minimize the situation and not make a big deal of it but
thats the problem of it. The truth is many of us are really attempting
to honestly address this issue. Isn't that what we need?
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Jul 16, '16, 9:21 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
Since LGBT "history" is of rather recent vintage, I suspect that a great deal of it will have to be fabricated.
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I am sure that is true. When I worked for a school district we
reviewed books that were supposed to be approved as diversity
selections. Often the LGBT diversity was just taking some historical
figure and making a statement like "since he never married, it is likely
he was gay but not open about it due to the culture of the day". No
evidence, no research, just tag people as "gay" to make it seem like
it's a normal thing. 
__________________
“In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally
recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to
marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must
refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or
application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from
material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area,
everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection." CDF
"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
The picture in my avatar is not a symbol against anyone who may
experience homosexuality - only against using the symbol God gave to
Noah to persecute Christians, promote pornography and pervert the
institution of marriage.
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Jul 16, '16, 9:21 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
Wow, what a lot of hurtful, offensive and
completely erroneous information here. I am gay, I have children. From
the tone of this thread it seems like homosexuals are being demonized as
sick diseased nymphomaniacs who released aids upon the world. Very
Westboro Baptist of everyone here. No wonder the pope asked for am
apology.
Well friends believe it or not I was born, baptized, confirmed and
raised Catholic, and yes taught about mortal sin. But as I grew up,
compassion, reason, and logic kind of opened my eyes and I just happened
to fall in love, as I'd hope everyone does. It's sad that this big
scary self created myth of a "gay agenda" seems to terrify so many on
here, but it shouldn't.
We are all brothers and sisters, sharing this planet, and it gives me
hope and great pride, no pun intended, that my children and yours are
already realizing that it's ok to be gay. I'm so sorry you disagree, and
you have every right to your opinion. But when you use they opinion to
justify your discrimination, fear and yes genuine disdain and hate I see
on here, well friends....take a look in the mirror and all around you.
We're your friends and family.
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If anybody thought that what was going to be taught was history,
most people wouldn't have a problem. The problem is that everybody knows
that what is going to be taught is propaganda. It won't be a balanced
look. Lot's of trivial actors and events will be blown up as glorious
occasions and any opposition will be demonized.
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Jul 16, '16, 9:26 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
Wow, what a lot of hurtful, offensive and
completely erroneous information here. I am gay, I have children. From
the tone of this thread it seems like homosexuals are being demonized as
sick diseased nymphomaniacs who released aids upon the world. Very
Westboro Baptist of everyone here. No wonder the pope asked for am
apology.
Well friends believe it or not I was born, baptized, confirmed and
raised Catholic, and yes taught about mortal sin. But as I grew up,
compassion, reason, and logic kind of opened my eyes and I just happened
to fall in love, as I'd hope everyone does. It's sad that this big
scary self created myth of a "gay agenda" seems to terrify so many on
here, but it shouldn't.
We are all brothers and sisters, sharing this planet, and it gives me
hope and great pride, no pun intended, that my children and yours are
already realizing that it's ok to be gay. I'm so sorry you disagree, and
you have every right to your opinion. But when you use they opinion to
justify your discrimination, fear and yes genuine disdain and hate I see
on here, well friends....take a look in the mirror and all around you.
We're your friends and family.
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I can see how my post on AIDS could have been taken that way and I
apologize for that. Having said that I do not believe but homosexual
should be allowed to marry or adopt children nor do I believe that our
schools should be teaching the accomplishments of homosexuals. I
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Jul 16, '16, 9:29 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Which is why I mentioned adultery. But then no one is suggesting that schools teach accomplishments of adulterers
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Do adulterers have a culture, movement, community? Have they been,
as a group, overtly or covertly discriminated against by mainstream
society? Has society singled them out as a perverted, depraved, subhuman
species? Have they been murdered simply because they are adulterers?
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Jul 16, '16, 9:42 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
Grace do you support discrimination
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Please see this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
thats what we have further discussed here, your above point? Simply put thats inaccurate above.
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Please see this, taking note of the first eight words in particular.
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Jul 16, '16, 9:51 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
Do adulterers have a culture, movement,
community? Have they been, as a group, overtly or covertly discriminated
against by mainstream society? Has society singled them out as a
perverted, depraved, subhuman species? Have they been murdered simply
because they are adulterers?
|
While adulterers are despised enough to be pretty much on their
own, and alienated, before the development of the internet and an the
online community among them that have developed, all the rest of that is
true of adulterers, and adulteresses.
Adulterers are not honored even now.
While the education establishment no longer considers its culture
important enough to teach, and it is therefore been largely forgotten
even by the educators, the Scarlet Letter was an 'A', and not any of the
LBTQ letters that are now a source of price among educators.
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Jul 16, '16, 9:53 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Grace YOU bought the point up.
Thats a meaningless link you posted to the point at hand we arrived at.
I'm not here to break gracepoole stones, quite on the contrary, but to
put our obvious issues in perspective.
Anyway, go on with your conversation but do know my points stand,
period. By all means go on with your thread, I withdraw, your silence is
an acknowledgement itself "oh I didn't think of that"
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Jul 16, '16, 9:54 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
Do adulterers have a culture, movement,
community? Have they been, as a group, overtly or covertly discriminated
against by mainstream society? Has society singled them out as a
perverted, depraved, subhuman species? Have they been murdered simply
because they are adulterers?
|
Adulterers had been murdered throughout history , usually buy
jealous husband. The fact that homosexuals consider themselves a
community is irrelevant as far as whether their "history" should be
taught in our schools
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Jul 16, '16, 10:01 am
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Regular Member
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Posts: 3,891
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
Do adulterers have a culture, movement, community?
|
Ashley Madison comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
Have they been, as a group, overtly or
covertly discriminated against by mainstream society? Has society
singled them out as a perverted, depraved, subhuman species? Have they
been murdered simply because they are adulterers?
|
In Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other Islamic countries, yes. Anne Boleyn was executed for alleged adultery as was Catherine Howard.
One of the differences is that adultery is still almost universally
condemned, even in the LBGT community. You could ask police about the
rate of domestic violence in same sex relationships which is double the
rate for married couples. Many of those incidents occur because of
infidelity.
Saint Paul was pretty even-handed. He managed to condemn all sex outside of marriage in one long sentence:
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do
not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor
boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy
nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of
God.
I Corinthians 6:9-10
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Jul 16, '16, 10:01 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 19, 2013
Posts: 1,690
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTaylor
Grace YOU bought the point up.
Thats a meaningless link you posted to the point at hand we arrived at.
I'm not here to break gracepoole stones, quite on the contrary, but to
put our obvious issues in perspective.
Anyway, go on with your conversation but do know my points stand, period. By all means go on with your thread, I withdraw, your silence is an acknowledgement itself "oh I didn't think of that" |
Only if you are a mind reader.
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Jul 16, '16, 10:05 am
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Regular Member
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
Do adulterers have a culture, movement,
community? Have they been, as a group, overtly or covertly discriminated
against by mainstream society? Has society singled them out as a
perverted, depraved, subhuman species? Have they been murdered simply
because they are adulterers?
|
Good point .
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Jul 16, '16, 10:19 am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: September 14, 2014
Posts: 143
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
My oldest is 8 and by necessity she
understands that some men marry other men while some women marry other
women. She understands that there are sacramental marriages and civil
marriages. We encounter enough gay and lesbian couples that it was
necessary to answer her questions.
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I hadn't thought of it being explained in that way, so thank you for your answer.
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Jul 16, '16, 10:29 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Adulterers had been murdered throughout
history , usually buy jealous husband. The fact that homosexuals
consider themselves a community is irrelevant as far as whether their
"history" should be taught in our schools
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It is not as if adultery is not a capital offense in many countries either.
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Jul 16, '16, 10:53 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: July 25, 2014
Posts: 4,123
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
And you know this how? You're making huge assumptions that are not true.
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Oh,you know it's true, you're just okay with kids being taught gay propaganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
What's your smitten?
|
I'm not aware of owning any smittens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
Ban all mention of any gay person history?
|
As I said, I don't have a problem with teaching history, and if a
gay person had some significant role, it should be acknowledged. For
example, Alan Turing and his role in the development of the modern
computer and in defeating the Nazis.But that's not what we'll get and
you know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
Keep us locked up in the closet?
|
I'm more of the "Does it really matter what these affectionate
people do — so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the
horses!" school of thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
Very ironic saying any opposition will be
demonized since that's what happens here everyday. It would seem to
summer that by holding my husband's hand or kissing him in public I am
committing a mortal sin, a horrible gay act, that dooms me to hell? |
Nobody on these boards has said you are "doomed to hell". And if
they did, a moderator would have deleted the comment as uncharitable,
and likely banned the poster. Don't be such a drama queen.
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Jul 16, '16, 10:54 am
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Regular Member
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Posts: 4,123
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
It is not as if adultery is not a capital offense in many countries either.
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Only for the woman....
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Jul 16, '16, 10:57 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 17, 2014
Posts: 2,440
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
I can see teaching about the movement in
context of current events, as long as no bias pro or con could be
attached to it, like you would teach the issue of immigration, or gun
control. There may even be some here that would trust the public school
to teach this factual without spinning it as a positive. I am simply not
one.
|
Yes. My husband says it's about how they teach it. In fact,
I wouldn't mind if very in-depth history was taught, and the
philosophical movements behind it were also spelled out. (But, I feel
that way about most modern subjects. We've divorced philosophy from
modernity in many current events studies. Learning philosophical history
makes sense out of so many things. When one can trace an idea's
genealogy, now that's powerful.) My husband received education about
LGBT history, but he said it was very neutral. I'm not convinced it will
be neutral going into the future.
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Jul 16, '16, 11:03 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: November 7, 2012
Posts: 7,487
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfengr
Only for the woman....
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And lower class men.
Higher class men can get away with almost anything.
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Jul 16, '16, 11:15 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: December 22, 2008
Posts: 14,260
Religion: Unlisted
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcelle
And lower class men.
Higher class men can get away with almost anything.
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People with power in general have been able to get away with almost anything.
Even powerful women.
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Jul 16, '16, 11:51 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,047
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
We are all brothers and sisters, sharing
this planet, and it gives me hope and great pride, no pun intended, that
my children and yours are already realizing that it's ok to be gay. I'm
so sorry you disagree, and you have every right to your opinion. .
|
Agree, don't agree, school is not the place to promote such opinions.
So teach the content of the character of people and history. There is no reason to mention their bedroom behavior.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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Jul 16, '16, 12:03 pm
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Regular Member
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Posts: 5,628
Religion: Lutheran (ELCA)
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
The fact that homosexuals consider
themselves a community is irrelevant as far as whether their "history"
should be taught in our schools
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You're right. There's all sorts of irrelevant stuff that shouldn't
be taught in history classes. For example, we should teach that these
people built 21 outposts in California between 1769 and 1833 called
"missions" and one of the people who founded some of these "missions"
was named Junipero Serra, but no need to mention the irrelevant
information that he belonged to a community of people called
"Catholics". Who would want to know that?
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Jul 16, '16, 12:10 pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 30, 2007
Posts: 406
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
It's just shocking to think that there are people who have urges and
desires to talk about these topics to little children and children in
their early teens. Very perverted.
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Jul 16, '16, 12:13 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: June 25, 2011
Posts: 7,043
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordHaveMercy
It's just shocking to think that there
are people who have urges and desires to talk about these topics to
little children and children in their early teens. Very perverted.
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I don't think the plan is to teach children about homosexual sex in these lessons.
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Jul 16, '16, 1:22 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: July 15, 2011
Posts: 4,506
Religion: I'm a Software Engineer :) 😊
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We are all human
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfengr
As I said, I don't have a problem with
teaching history, and if a gay person had some significant role, it
should be acknowledged. For example, Alan Turing and his role in the
development of the modern computer and in defeating the Nazis.But that's
not what we'll get and you know it.
|
I'm going to go a bit off topic for a bit.
As a computer science major we heard much about him; his contributions
were far more than just in the area of cryptology. At some point in a
discussion on his life we were told he had to choose between chemical
castration or imprisonment because male homosexual acts were considered a
criminal offense in Great Britain (female homosexuality was not
criminalized). We were not told what to think about it.
On one hand I am inclined to think that attitudes then and now are much
different. But on the other hand I still hear comments including those
within these forums that seem to suggest some of those old attitudes are
still alive within some people ; there's been a lot said about gays
within these forums and elsewhere that seems to be said without love.
It also seems to be a frequent occurrence that the way things are
described about homosexuals here is done in a way to imply other
negative things. More than once when a school has decided to tell the
students that families come in different configurations and has any
family pictured/illustrated with same sex parents here that is often
presented as "This school is teaching kids about homosexual activities!"
When I go find the materials in question there's no mention of sex or
sexuality. Only pictures of families.
In discussions which involve a gay couple raising a kid (especially if
the people raising the child are male) it's been described that "The
child is being abused!" When I've pressed to know what abuses are
thought to be occurring I finally got replies saying that those involved
thought a child not having parents of the opposite sex were abused.
From the frequent encounters of someone using the worst possible wording
that they can after a while I started to find some of the expressions
of concern to be disingenuous. It also has me questioning if some of the
people that have made declarations on the value of truth really value
it.
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Jul 16, '16, 1:55 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: October 14, 2008
Posts: 9,846
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
By bringing attention to a gay person's personal life and behavior, we
are actually bringing harm up to the cause of gay people in general.
Perhaps I am wrong, yet it seems gay people want to be treated as
equals, so why would they want their orientation to be part of their
history? Why would they want to be looked upon as a separate group that
is far different than the majority?
Also, while there is no doubt at all that people in the GLTQ community,
over time, have made contributions, and some of them were quite great;
however, if we start down this path, then we can end in a damaging
tit-for-tat about all of the contributions heterosexuals have made, or
this group made, or that group made, rather than what humans did.
In other words, if we go this way, then all history books should be
re-written to include sections for every group, including a massive
section about all the amazing things straight people did--and then, the
obvious question surfaces--did those straight people accomplish those
great historical things because they were straight, or because they
could? Also, if they did accomplish those great deeds because of their
"straightness," then doesn't that mean being straight will lead to more
greater deeds (since most great deeds were done by straight people)?
Do we really want to go down these paths and open up those questions,
because if we do, then we have to be honest and say the overwhelming
majority of great historical deeds were done by straight people, which
means people might then conclude that "straight is great!"
When any group chooses to separate themselves from the full body of
humanity, they unwittingly diminishing their own message. If John or
Jane Doe does X, it should not matter if they were gay or straight--it
should matter that they were human beings who made a great
contributions. In other words, they were people who did great things,
they were not their sins, they were not their orientation, they were
people who did great things.
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Jul 16, '16, 2:02 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,953
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strydersroom
...I'm calling for compassion, empathy, respect and at least tolerance for those you seem to despise so much.
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I'm calling for you to stop judging me and falsely accusing me of despising gay people.
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Jul 16, '16, 2:15 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,953
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Asking someone if she agrees with
discrimination sounds disingenuous, as though you're baiting. I don't
know if that's what's happening, of course, but I'd prefer not to engage
with such questions.
|
stinkcat_14 was asking if you support discrimination affirmative action.
10 people apply for a job (because they need money to pay their bills
and put food on the table for their family) but 9 of those people wont
get the job because they are...not gay, not women, not the right skin
color, not sufficiently irreligious, not transgender, etc.
Was that the type of discrimination you were talking about earlier that so-called "white men" will never experience?
Anyway you declined to answer stnkcat's question so we will just have to wonder.
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Jul 16, '16, 2:37 pm
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Moderator
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Join Date: June 26, 2005
Posts: 32,570
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
MODERATOR REMINDER
Stop talking about each other
Charitably discuss the issues, not each other
__________________
Robert Bay, Moderator
Never let evil talk pass your lips; say only the good things men need to
hear, things that will really help them. (Ephesians 4:29)
Moderator direction can be appealed by sending an email to: forumadmin@catholic.com
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Jul 16, '16, 3:19 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: November 4, 2014
Posts: 5,628
Religion: Lutheran (ELCA)
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
By bringing attention to a gay person's
personal life and behavior, we are actually bringing harm up to the
cause of gay people in general. Perhaps I am wrong, yet it seems gay
people want to be treated as equals, so why would they want their
orientation to be part of their history? Why would they want to be
looked upon as a separate group that is far different than the majority?
Also, while there is no doubt at all that people in the GLTQ community,
over time, have made contributions, and some of them were quite great;
however, if we start down this path, then we can end in a damaging
tit-for-tat about all of the contributions heterosexuals have made, or
this group made, or that group made, rather than what humans did.
In other words, if we go this way, then all history books should be
re-written to include sections for every group, including a massive
section about all the amazing things straight people did--and then, the
obvious question surfaces--did those straight people accomplish those
great historical things because they were straight, or because they
could? Also, if they did accomplish those great deeds because of their
"straightness," then doesn't that mean being straight will lead to more
greater deeds (since most great deeds were done by straight people)?
Do we really want to go down these paths and open up those questions,
because if we do, then we have to be honest and say the overwhelming
majority of great historical deeds were done by straight people, which
means people might then conclude that "straight is great!"
When any group chooses to separate themselves from the full body of
humanity, they unwittingly diminishing their own message. If John or
Jane Doe does X, it should not matter if they were gay or straight--it
should matter that they were human beings who made a great
contributions. In other words, they were people who did great things,
they were not their sins, they were not their orientation, they were
people who did great things.
|
So do you think that when we talk about the history of Jazz, for
example, it shouldn't be mentioned that this form of music originated in
the African American community in New Orleans? According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
|
Jazz is a music genre that originated from African American communities
of New Orleans in the United States during the late 19th and early 20th
centuries. It emerged in the form of independent traditional and popular
musical styles, all linked by the common bonds of African American and
European American musical parentage with a performance orientation.
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz
So should we just say that this form of music called Jazz was first made
by certain human beings no different from other human beings, certainly
no different from any white community in the US? Isn't it possible that
it originated in that particular African American community because of
something about that community and the people in it?
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Jul 16, '16, 3:23 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,953
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
I can't think of anything which prevents me from enjoying jazz music.
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Jul 16, '16, 3:28 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: November 4, 2014
Posts: 5,628
Religion: Lutheran (ELCA)
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion IRC
I can't think of anything which prevents me from enjoying jazz music.
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We can all enjoy jazz music, but could jazz music have originated
and been invented in any white community in 19th and early 20th century
America?
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Jul 16, '16, 3:34 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,953
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
I expect that educators (LGBTQIA historians) will want our children to
have a basic understanding of the glossary of terms. University of
California Davis.
http://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated/glossary.html
Warning - Parental Advisory.
The above website contains adult concepts of sexuality which may not be
appropriate for children/minors (who cannot give informed consent).
|
Jul 16, '16, 3:36 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: June 26, 2005
Posts: 10,555
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
We can all enjoy jazz music, but could
jazz music have originated and been invented in any white community in
19th and early 20th century America.
|
Why not? How do you know it wasn't? Detroit was not the only car
manufacturing town a hundred years ago. Things can have multiple
origins.
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Jul 16, '16, 3:47 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: April 1, 2013
Posts: 1,953
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
They say that history is always written by the victors.
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Jul 16, '16, 4:45 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: December 22, 2008
Posts: 14,260
Religion: Unlisted
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
So do you think that when we talk about
the history of Jazz, for example, it shouldn't be mentioned that this
form of music originated in the African American community in New
Orleans? According to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz
So should we just say that this form of music called Jazz was first made
by certain human beings no different from other human beings, certainly
no different from any white community in the US? Isn't it possible that
it originated in that particular African American community because of
something about that community and the people in it? |
I think that Jazz music was very much a expression of the culture
from which it arose. The same can be said about the River Dance, and any
number of similar phenomena.
Now there are many pertinent cultural phenomena that arose from gay
culture too, such as earrings for men, and really super thin 'boyish'
super models that are much more the ideal of beauty of the homosexual
culture than they are of the way that heterosexual men sense beauty.
Now if the inventor of the light bulb or the combine was of a certain
sexual orientation, how would that be anything like Jazz music. Would
there be something about light bulbs of filling granaries that would
make a person's sexuality pertinent to the discovery?
The purpose of history should not to be any form of nationalistic chest
thumping, even if the nations in the current model of history happen to
be identity groups rather than German or English or Serbian. The purpose
of history ought to be presenting children an accounting of the past as
unbiased as possible
Nationalistic chest-thumping has never really turned out very well for anybody,as any student of history could tell you.
And, those who do not learn from their history are condemned to repeat
it. Dividing people according to identity groups is not learning the
lessons from history, but merely repeating the failed policies of our
past.
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Jul 16, '16, 6:39 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: October 14, 2008
Posts: 9,846
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
So do you think that when we talk about
the history of Jazz, for example, it shouldn't be mentioned that this
form of music originated in the African American community in New
Orleans? According to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz
So should we just say that this form of music called Jazz was first made
by certain human beings no different from other human beings, certainly
no different from any white community in the US? Isn't it possible that
it originated in that particular African American community because of
something about that community and the people in it? |
I believe that when we think of humans as being X communities or Y
communities, we are often creating reasons for division. The X
community might come to think they are somehow superior to the Y
community, or vice versa. If, however, we say this person or that person
did X in history, then it takes a lot of the division creating fuel
away. There is no reason not to note the conditions surrounding the
development of Jazz, yet we must tread carefully because if we stretch
that too far, we again create reasons for divisions.
Every person, no matter their race or gender, is created in the image
and likeness of God. It is from that base that we must look at all
people--only when can see that truth in every person will we see less
division.
Again, where does this sort of thing stop? If LGBT contributions are to
be noted in some special way in history books (rather than just
accurately recording certain contributions by certain humans), then why
should there be entire volumes dedicated to straight people
contributions, of other groups?
How does any of that help lessen the divisions we see today?
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Jul 16, '16, 7:04 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 19, 2013
Posts: 1,690
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Re: We are all human
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien
I'm going to go a bit off topic for a bit.
As a computer science major we heard much about him; his contributions
were far more than just in the area of cryptology. At some point in a
discussion on his life we were told he had to choose between chemical
castration or imprisonment because male homosexual acts were considered a
criminal offense in Great Britain (female homosexuality was not
criminalized). We were not told what to think about it.
On one hand I am inclined to think that attitudes then and now are much
different. But on the other hand I still hear comments including those
within these forums that seem to suggest some of those old attitudes are
still alive within some people ; there's been a lot said about gays
within these forums and elsewhere that seems to be said without love.
It also seems to be a frequent occurrence that the way things are
described about homosexuals here is done in a way to imply other
negative things. More than once when a school has decided to tell the
students that families come in different configurations and has any
family pictured/illustrated with same sex parents here that is often
presented as "This school is teaching kids about homosexual activities!"
When I go find the materials in question there's no mention of sex or
sexuality. Only pictures of families.
In discussions which involve a gay couple raising a kid (especially if
the people raising the child are male) it's been described that "The
child is being abused!" When I've pressed to know what abuses are
thought to be occurring I finally got replies saying that those involved
thought a child not having parents of the opposite sex were abused.
From the frequent encounters of someone using the worst possible wording
that they can after a while I started to find some of the expressions
of concern to be disingenuous. It also has me questioning if some of the
people that have made declarations on the value of truth really value
it.
|
Thank you for this post. I think it is both profound and sincere.
I, too, have wondered about the people who say they value truth and
don't seem to grasp the truth that some are so desperately trying to
convey. God bless you.
|
Jul 16, '16, 11:06 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: September 25, 2014
Posts: 1,073
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion IRC
I expect that educators (LGBTQIA
historians) will want our children to have a basic understanding of the
glossary of terms. University of California Davis. http://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated/glossary.html
Warning - Parental Advisory.
The above website contains adult concepts of sexuality which may not be
appropriate for children/minors (who cannot give informed consent). |
Some of it is actually funny:
"Womyn/Womxn: some womyn spell the word with a “y” or an “x”
as a form of empowerment to move away from the “men” in the
“traditional” spelling of women
Ursula: Some lesbians, particularly butch dykes, also participate
in Bear culture referring to themselves with the distinct label
Ursula."
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Jul 16, '16, 11:28 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: September 25, 2014
Posts: 1,073
Religion: Catholic
|
|
Re: We are all human
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingSapien
I'm going to go a bit off topic for a bit.
As a computer science major we heard much about him; his contributions
were far more than just in the area of cryptology. At some point in a
discussion on his life we were told he had to choose between chemical
castration or imprisonment because male homosexual acts were considered a
criminal offense in Great Britain (female homosexuality was not
criminalized). We were not told what to think about it.
On one hand I am inclined to think that attitudes then and now are much
different. But on the other hand I still hear comments including those
within these forums that seem to suggest some of those old attitudes are
still alive within some people ; there's been a lot said about gays
within these forums and elsewhere that seems to be said without love.
It also seems to be a frequent occurrence that the way things are
described about homosexuals here is done in a way to imply other
negative things. More than once when a school has decided to tell the
students that families come in different configurations and has any
family pictured/illustrated with same sex parents here that is often
presented as "This school is teaching kids about homosexual activities!"
When I go find the materials in question there's no mention of sex or
sexuality. Only pictures of families.
In discussions which involve a gay couple raising a kid (especially if
the people raising the child are male) it's been described that "The
child is being abused!" When I've pressed to know what abuses are
thought to be occurring I finally got replies saying that those involved
thought a child not having parents of the opposite sex were abused.
From the frequent encounters of someone using the worst possible wording
that they can after a while I started to find some of the expressions
of concern to be disingenuous. It also has me questioning if some of the
people that have made declarations on the value of truth really value
it.
|
The story of Turing's last years is sad but also complicated as
was Oscar Wilde's. There was a burglary of Turing's residence in 1952
admitted by his young partner at the time that the thief was a friend of
his. There was treachery by the partners of both Turing and Wilde that
has a more than a whiff of carelessness about it, if not some
self-destruct. There were plenty of goofy psycho treatments back then
not only for homosexuality, like lobotomy and electric shocks for
hyperactivity or even those who didn't fit in with society (re: the
actress Fannie Farmer).
The point about those who shout the loudest and countries that penalize
homosexuality the most, they are the biggest hypocrites because as in
Afghanistan, it is rife. They are covering up what they themselves are
doing and finding scapegoats.Truly tolerant people do not have a habit
of persecuting others for their mistakes, or try to change others.
The other issue you mentioned is far more pertinent and explosive, that
of dismantling the family. After so many millennia of imprinting by male
and female, here we are ready to jump in and change things without any
knowledge of their consequences. You see, if this were truly scientific,
studies would be made before depriving children of one male or female
parent. As the results are coming in, these new sorts of "families" are
disasters in every way. The children score lower on tests, have more
substance abuse, are confused about their own sexuality and are sad that
they lost one biological parent, if not two.
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Jul 17, '16, 4:10 am
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Forum Elder
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Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 34,047
Religion: Catholic
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
By bringing attention to a gay person's
personal life and behavior, we are actually bringing harm up to the
cause of gay people in general. Perhaps I am wrong, yet it seems gay
people want to be treated as equals, so why would they want their
orientation to be part of their history?
|
I think the answer is clear. They do not want to be treated as
equals. The continuing push for acceptance, then promotion is necessary,
as like the Shakers, they can on "procreate" by recruitment. Biology
will not make it possible for this movement to be maintained, much less
grow, without reaching to children and recruiting them at an early age.
The problem here, and the reason this may lead to the downfall of
America, is that biology is unchanged. Push homosexuality too much and a
substantial section of our future is never born.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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Jul 17, '16, 4:30 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton
I think the answer is clear. They do not
want to be treated as equals. The continuing push for acceptance, then
promotion is necessary, as like the Shakers, they can on "procreate" by
recruitment. Biology will not make it possible for this movement to be
maintained, much less grow, without reaching to children and recruiting
them at an early age.
The problem here, and the reason this may lead to the downfall of
America, is that biology is unchanged. Push homosexuality too much and a
substantial section of our future is never born.
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There may well be a backlash for overdoing it. Already biology is
protesting judging by the high rates of awful diseases contracted. This
will be like all of a sudden making the connection between smoking and
lung cancer. Then the sheep will baa in the opposite direction.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:01 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion IRC
stinkcat_14 was asking if you support discrimination affirmative action.
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No, I was asked whether I support discrimination. You may interpret that differently, as many stinkcat, but words have meaning.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:04 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
I believe that when we think of humans as being X communities or Y communities, we are often creating reasons for division.
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Or we could simply recognize the uniqueness of X communities and Y
communities without thinking of ourselves and how the accomplishments
of others might supposedly diminish us.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:18 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
No, I was asked whether I support discrimination. You may interpret that differently, as many stinkcat, but words have meaning.
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Words do have meaning, but there is no particular reason why we
should your definition of discrimination. Until we get an agreed upon
definition of discrimination, it makes much of our discussions of
racism, sexism and other isms rather limited because our definitions are
rather subjective. You might disagree with my definition of
discrimination, but that doesn't make my definition wrong, it just means
that you don't like it. Of course, nobody is required to like anything.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:20 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Words do have meaning, but there is no
particular reason why we should your definition of discrimination. Until
we get an agreed upon definition of discrimination, it makes much of
our discussions of racism, sexism and other isms rather limited because
our definitions are rather subjective. You might disagree with my
definition of discrimination, but that doesn't make my definition wrong,
it just means that you don't like it. Of course, nobody is required to
like anything.
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If your definition isn't in the OED, then yes, it's wrong.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:24 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
If your definition isn't in the OED, then yes, it's wrong.
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Who has deemed them the ultimate authority?
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Jul 17, '16, 7:28 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Who has deemed them the ultimate authority?
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The Oxford English Dictionary? Um, the entire civilized world.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:30 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
The Oxford English Dictionary? Um, the entire civilized world.
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Source? Let's see your data on this one. I am an empiricist. Of
course, two hundred years ago the entire civilized world thought slavery
was appropriate, so we cannot use majority rule to determine the truth.
Not that we have ever had a vote to deem the OED infallible.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:48 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Source? Let's see your data on this one. I
am an empiricist. Of course, two hundred years ago the entire civilized
world thought slavery was appropriate, so we cannot use majority rule
to determine the truth. Not that we have ever had a vote to deem the OED
infallible.
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A PhD in English Language and Literature. That's my source. And I
can't think of one person in the field of English language that would
say otherwise.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:53 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
I think that Jazz music was very much a
expression of the culture from which it arose. The same can be said
about the River Dance, and any number of similar phenomena.
Now there are many pertinent cultural phenomena that arose from gay
culture too, such as earrings for men, and really super thin 'boyish'
super models that are much more the ideal of beauty of the homosexual
culture than they are of the way that heterosexual men sense beauty.
Now if the inventor of the light bulb or the combine was of a certain
sexual orientation, how would that be anything like Jazz music. Would
there be something about light bulbs of filling granaries that would
make a person's sexuality pertinent to the discovery?
The purpose of history should not to be any form of nationalistic chest
thumping, even if the nations in the current model of history happen to
be identity groups rather than German or English or Serbian. The purpose
of history ought to be presenting children an accounting of the past as
unbiased as possible
Nationalistic chest-thumping has never really turned out very well for anybody,as any student of history could tell you.
And, those who do not learn from their history are condemned to repeat
it. Dividing people according to identity groups is not learning the
lessons from history, but merely repeating the failed policies of our
past.
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Interesting point, I guess they should just tell them the pilgrims
were just people, who met other people when they moved here. The civil
war was fought by people against other people over, uh, reasons. Best
not to mention the Indian Wars because I don't see how you can talk
about that without mentioning race.
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Jul 17, '16, 7:56 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
A PhD in English Language and Literature.
That's my source. And I can't think of one person in the field of
English language that would say otherwise.
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Nobody has deemed humanities PhDs and the ultimate arbiter of
definitions. Especially in areas the delve into the economic realm, such
as discrimination. As you are probably aware, humanities PhDs are
woefully ignorant when it comes to economics. Just think of all those
who work as permanent adjuncts and somehow think they are being
discriminated against. They have a lot to learn when it comes to
economics.
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Jul 17, '16, 8:01 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Nobody has deemed humanities PhDs and the
ultimate arbiter of definitions. Especially in areas the delve into the
economic realm, such as discrimination. As you are probably aware,
humanities PhDs are woefully ignorant when it comes to economics. Just
think of all those who work as permanent adjuncts and somehow think they
are being discriminated against. They have a lot to learn when it comes
to economics.
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We're talking about how language is defined. And yes, PhD's in
English language (and the OED) are experts in this study. It's certainly
your choice to disagree. But you won't find many learned people who
will champion such a choice.
BTW, do you know what the Oxford English Dictionary is?
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Jul 17, '16, 8:02 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Nobody has deemed humanities PhDs and the
ultimate arbiter of definitions. Especially in areas the delve into the
economic realm, such as discrimination. As you are probably aware,
humanities PhDs are woefully ignorant when it comes to economics. Just
think of all those who work as permanent adjuncts and somehow think they
are being discriminated against. They have a lot to learn when it comes
to economics.
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Would you be so kind as to list YOUR sources.
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Jul 17, '16, 8:48 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
If we cannot even agree words mean what they clearly mean, I mean,
c'mon. If you don't like OED, then fine, us Merriam-Webster, Cambridge,
or the On-line dictionary. There's no real difference in this case.
"Discrimination", in this context has a clear meaning, regardless of the
specific dictionary used.
__________________
"Then the
King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
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Jul 17, '16, 8:58 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
So do you think that when we talk about
the history of Jazz, for example, it shouldn't be mentioned that this
form of music originated in the African American community in New
Orleans? According to Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz
So should we just say that this form of music called Jazz was first made
by certain human beings no different from other human beings, certainly
no different from any white community in the US? Isn't it possible that
it originated in that particular African American community because of
something about that community and the people in it? |
African American is a culture (actually a subset of cultures) -not an extra-marital sex act.
Of course it's important to talk about cultural influences. But it's not
important what kind of sex they were having in the privacy of their own
bedrooms.
__________________
According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman's opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God's.
Tiber Swim Team - Class of 2001
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Jul 17, '16, 9:36 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Or we could simply recognize the
uniqueness of X communities and Y communities without thinking of
ourselves and how the accomplishments of others might supposedly
diminish us.
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George Washington was great for what he did, and not because he was straight and white.
Martin Luther King Jr. was great because of what he did, not because he was black and straight.
Both men are people to look up to in terms of what they did.
Until we see humanity and Christ in everyone, there will continue t be divisions among us.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:41 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Would you be so kind as to list YOUR sources.
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What sources would you like?
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Jul 17, '16, 10:42 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
George Washington was great for what he did, and not because he was straight and white.
Martin Luther King Jr. was great because of what he did, not because he was black and straight.
Both men are people to look up to in terms of what they did.
Until we see humanity and Christ in everyone, there will continue t be divisions among us.
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How do you view Frederick Douglass, who ran away from those who
owned him, fashioned a new life for himself, and became an educated man
despite all odds? Should he be applauded for this? Or should he be
viewed as any other person who becomes educated?
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Jul 17, '16, 10:42 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
We're talking about how language is
defined. And yes, PhD's in English language (and the OED) are experts in
this study. It's certainly your choice to disagree. But you won't find
many learned people who will champion such a choice.
BTW, do you know what the Oxford English Dictionary is?
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There are plenty of learned people who view affirmative action as
discrimination. Why would I not know what the Oxford English dictionary
is?
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Jul 17, '16, 10:48 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
How do you view Frederick Douglass, who
ran away from those who owned him, fashioned a new life for himself, and
became an educated man despite all odds? Should he be applauded for
this? Or should he be viewed as any other person who becomes educated?
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Some people clearly overcome adversity. For others, such as
Hillary, the only adversity she overcame was being married to a
philanderer. Of course, part of the reason she is where she is, is
because of that philanderer. She went to elite schools, so it is not
like she pulled herself up by her bootstraps. She claimed she was broke
at one point, but that broke person happened to buy a million dollar
house. In the case of Hillary, pointing out that she is a woman adds
nothing to the narrative.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:49 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
There are plenty of learned people who
view affirmative action as discrimination. Why would I not know what the
Oxford English dictionary is?
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If you know what the OED is, then you know it's the collected
etymology of every word in the English language. It identifies the
origins and evolution of every word. If your own personal definition of
discrimination isn't in it, that means there's an issue with your
definition.
As for affirmative action being discrimination, one does not literally
mean the other. You might make an argument that affirmative action is
discriminatory but it's illegitimate to say that discrimination and
affirmative action are interchangeable terms. They're not. Of course, I
don't know why affirmative action would be a topic for this thread,
which is about LGBT history being taught in California schools.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:49 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
How do you view Frederick Douglass, who
ran away from those who owned him, fashioned a new life for himself, and
became an educated man despite all odds? Should he be applauded for
this? Or should he be viewed as any other person who becomes educated?
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He should be seen as a man who was oppressed and had the courage to take action.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:50 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Some people clearly overcome adversity.
For others, such as Hillary, the only adversity she overcame was being
married to a philanderer. Of course, part of the reason she is where she
is, is because of that philanderer. She went to elite schools, so it is
not like she pulled herself up by her bootstraps. She claimed she was
broke at one point, but that broke person happened to buy a million
dollar house. In the case of Hillary, pointing out that she is a woman
adds nothing to the narrative.
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Your post didn't respond to my questions.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:52 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
If you know what the OED is, then you
know it's the collected etymology of every word in the English language.
It identifies the origins and evolution of every word. If your own
personal definition of discrimination isn't in it, that means there's an
issue with your definition.
As for affirmative action being discrimination, one does not literally
mean the other. You might make an argument that affirmative action is
discriminatory but it's illegitimate to say that discrimination and
affirmative action are interchangeable terms. They're not. Of course, I
don't know why affirmative action would be a topic for this thread,
which is about LGBT history being taught in California schools.
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I never said that affirmative action and discrimination are
interchangeable terms. Affirmative action is a subset of discrimination.
It is an example of discrimination to be sure, but it is not the
totality of discrimination and I never claimed as much.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:53 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Your post didn't respond to my questions.
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I was just expanding on what you said.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:53 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
He should be seen as a man who was oppressed and had the courage to take action.
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Is it important to know why or how he was oppressed? Taking
"black" away from his narrative seems to me to greatly diminish his
personal story and experiences. And I don't believe that keeping it in
his narrative does anything to diminish anyone else's personal story and
experiences.
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Jul 17, '16, 10:57 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
I never said that affirmative action and
discrimination are interchangeable terms. Affirmative action is a subset
of discrimination. It is an example of discrimination to be sure, but
it is not the totality of discrimination and I never claimed as much.
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You asked whether I agree with discrimination. You did not ask
whether I agree with affirmative action. You might imagine my confusion,
then, when you wrote, "The reason I ask is that there are many people,
primarily people who vote for democrats who are very much in favor of
discrimination. Are you one of those people?" How might I possibly know
to what you were "really" referring here? And you might further imagine
how your questions appear disingenuous.
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Jul 17, '16, 11:25 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Is it important to know why or how he was
oppressed? Taking "black" away from his narrative seems to me to
greatly diminish his personal story and experiences. And I don't believe
that keeping it in his narrative does anything to diminish anyone
else's personal story and experiences.
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The problem that I see is when we take individual instances and
apply them to the whole population. Frederick Douglas was oppressed, I
don't think that anyone can dispute that. On the other hand, nobody can
give a coherent argument that Hillary Clinton has ever experienced
oppression of any kind. She is from the privileged class and all her
life she lived a life of privilege. So if she gets elected, mentioning
that she is the first woman president is not going to add anything to
the narrative, because she never overcame any adversity to get to the
position.
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Jul 17, '16, 11:50 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
The problem that I see is when we take
individual instances and apply them to the whole population. Frederick
Douglas was oppressed, I don't think that anyone can dispute that. On
the other hand, nobody can give a coherent argument that Hillary Clinton
has ever experienced oppression of any kind. She is from the privileged
class and all her life she lived a life of privilege. So if she gets
elected, mentioning that she is the first woman president is not going
to add anything to the narrative, because she never overcame any
adversity to get to the position.
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Why is HRC now part of this conversation?
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Jul 17, '16, 11:55 am
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Why is HRC now part of this conversation?
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Why not? I think she is a good counterexample to those who scream
the most about "diversity", whatever that means. There is a narrative
among promoters of so called "diversity", that if you are a member of a
particular group, that means you are oppressed. Hillary is an excellent
counter example to the diversity narrative. There is no evidence that
she has been oppressed or discriminated against, so her gender adds
nothing to the discussion. Hillary has just as much right to be in this
conversation as Frederick does.
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Jul 17, '16, 12:02 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
The problem that I see is when we take individual instances and apply them to the whole population.
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Are there then examples of individuals in the LGBT community who should be celebrated as such?
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Jul 17, '16, 12:04 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Are there then examples of individuals in the LGBT community who should be celebrated as such?
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Who would you suggest?
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Jul 17, '16, 12:09 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Who would you suggest?
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I don't know enough about LGBT history to suggest anyone. But if
there is a difference between individuals and groups and if there are
exceptions like Douglass who should be celebrated as an individual
black, this indicates that there may in fact be individual LGBT members
who should be celebrated, as well.
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Jul 17, '16, 12:17 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I don't know enough about LGBT history to
suggest anyone. But if there is a difference between individuals and
groups and if there are exceptions like Douglass who should be
celebrated as an individual black, this indicates that there may in fact
be individual LGBT members who should be celebrated, as well.
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So should the sexual behavior of anybody who has accomplished
something be disclosed only that of homosexuals? For interest why aren't
we told about Frederick Douglass's sexual behavior?
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Jul 17, '16, 12:35 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
I don't know enough about LGBT history to
suggest anyone. But if there is a difference between individuals and
groups and if there are exceptions like Douglass who should be
celebrated as an individual black, this indicates that there may in fact
be individual LGBT members who should be celebrated, as well.
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Even though nobody can come up with someone that ought to be
celebrated, the state of California in its infinite wisdom as decided
that they ought to be celebrated anyway
Of course, nobody bothers to ask the question of what is the cost of all
this silliness. The cost is, our kids cannot add and subtract, they
cannot write a coherent sentence and these proposals do nothing to solve
that problem. But people some people will feel good about themselves,
who cares if we lose our competitive position in the world, it is just
important to make a minority of people feel good about themselves.
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Jul 17, '16, 12:42 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Even though nobody can come up with
someone that ought to be celebrated, the state of California in its
infinite wisdom as decided that they ought to be celebrated anyway
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While I am not expert in this area and can't make suggestions,
that doesn't mean these people don't exist. It isn't "nobody," then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Of course, nobody bothers to ask the
question of what is the cost of all this silliness. The cost is, our
kids cannot add and subtract, they cannot write a coherent sentence and
these proposals do nothing to solve that problem. But people some people
will feel good about themselves, who cares if we lose our competitive
position in the world, it is just important to make a minority of people
feel good about themselves.
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Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...all minorities. There are individuals
within these communities who should be celebrated. Their successes
against significant odds make all of humanity richer. What if we took
the approach suggested above when it came to someone like Douglass? How
sad that the world would be deprived of his story.
As for focusing on the fundamentals in school, of course this should
happen. Yet I'd give up our competitive edge against other countries in a
heartbeat if doing so meant we'd be raising truly empathetic,
charitable children.
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Jul 17, '16, 12:52 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
While I am not expert in this area and
can't make suggestions, that doesn't mean these people don't exist. It
isn't "nobody," then.
Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...all minorities. There are individuals within
these communities who should be celebrated. Their successes against
significant odds make all of humanity richer. What if we took the
approach suggested above when it came to someone like Douglass? How sad
that the world would be deprived of his story.
As for focusing on the fundamentals in school, of course this should
happen. Yet I'd give up our competitive edge against other countries in a
heartbeat if doing so meant we'd be raising truly empathetic,
charitable children.
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What is the evidence that these types of courses create
empathetic, charitable children? We have been an empathetic, charitable
country for years and we never had these types of classes.
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Jul 17, '16, 12:57 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
What is the evidence that these types of
courses create empathetic, charitable children? We have been an
empathetic, charitable country for years and we never had these types of
classes.
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For how many years have we been "an empathetic, charitable
country" toward ethnic minorities and gay people? It seems to me the
opposite has been the historical case, in which each wave of immigrants
was treated quite cruelly.
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Jul 17, '16, 1:07 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
The problem that I see is when we take
individual instances and apply them to the whole population. Frederick
Douglas was oppressed, I don't think that anyone can dispute that. On
the other hand, nobody can give a coherent argument that Hillary Clinton
has ever experienced oppression of any kind. She is from the privileged
class and all her life she lived a life of privilege. So if she gets
elected, mentioning that she is the first woman president is not going
to add anything to the narrative, because she never overcame any
adversity to get to the position.
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The fact that out of 44 presidents so far in the history of the
US, not one has ever been a woman speaks for itself about the continuing
struggle of women for equality. Most women in the US still get paid
less for the same amount of work as a man. So for Hillary to become the
first woman president would indeed be a milestone in the history of our
country.
But this thread is about LGBT people, and many of them have been
oppressed. Until 2003 (only 13 years ago) when the Supreme Court struck
down sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas, homosexual activity was still a crime in a number of states, even in the privacy of one's home.
Moreover, the LGBT community is a real community with a history and a
culture. The Stonewall Inn in New York City was the site of an important
event in LGBT history and in US history and has appropriately been
designated a national monument.
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Jul 17, '16, 1:07 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy
For how many years have we been "an
empathetic, charitable country" toward ethnic minorities and gay people?
It seems to me the opposite has been the historical case, in which each
wave of immigrants was treated quite cruelly.
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The problem that I see is that people take examples of extreme
cases and use them to make inferences about the average. Certainly,
there are those who have treated ethnic minorities and gay people
cruelly. That does not suggest that on average we have treated them
cruelly. We also have to question what the remedy is for cruel behavior.
Will a course like this have any effect on someone who is pre-disposed
to be cruel? I am not convinced that it will.
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Jul 17, '16, 1:09 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
The fact that out of 44 presidents so far
in the history of the US, not one has ever been a woman speaks for
itself. So for Hillary to become the first woman president would indeed
be a milestone in the history of our country.
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A woman who has lived a life of privilege and whose only
accomplishment is marrying a philanderer is not really much of a
milestone in my opinion. Hillary is not a role model in any way.
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Jul 17, '16, 1:23 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
A woman who has lived a life of privilege
and whose only accomplishment is marrying a philanderer is not really
much of a milestone in my opinion. Hillary is not a role model in any
way.
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Out of 44 presents, Bill Clinton is still ranked 20th by
historians and political scientists (much better than George W. Bush who
is ranked 34th). If we knew the sexual history of past presidents, I
wonder how many of them would turn out to have been less than snow
white? Thomas Jefferson fathered children with his slave Sally Hemings.
Warren G. Harding (a Republican) had a mistress, Nan Britton. Dwight D.
Eisenhower (a Republican) had an affair with Kay Summersby. George H.W.
Bush reportedly had an affair with Jennifer Fitzgerald.
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Jul 17, '16, 1:30 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
Out of 44 presents, Bill Clinton is still
ranked 20th by historians and political scientists (much better than
George W. Bush who is ranked 34th). If we knew the sexual history of
past presidents, I wonder how many of them would turn out to have been
less than snow white? Thomas Jefferson fathered children with his slave
Sally Hemings. Warren G. Harding (a Republican) had a mistress, Nan
Britton. Dwight D. Eisenhower (a Republican) had an affair with Kay
Summersby. George H.W. Bush reportedly had an affair with Jennifer
Fitzgerald.
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If what you say is true, Bill is at best an average President.
Does marrying an average president mean that she has overcome
oppression?
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Jul 17, '16, 1:56 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
MODERATOR REMINDER
Please stay on the topic of the original post
__________________
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Never let evil talk pass your lips; say only the good things men need to
hear, things that will really help them. (Ephesians 4:29)
Moderator direction can be appealed by sending an email to: forumadmin@catholic.com
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Jul 17, '16, 1:57 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
While I am not expert in this area and
can't make suggestions, that doesn't mean these people don't exist. It
isn't "nobody," then.
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The problem with trying to identify historical gay figures is that
many were probably closeted. For example, James Buchanan, our 15th
president, openly lived with a man for many years and people in
Washington at the time referred to the man as Buchanan's "wife" and used
other derogatory words for homosexuality to describe their
relationship. Hard to know if this was just gossip, due to his
bachelorhood and unusual living arrangement, or if Buchanan was actually
our first gay president.
Few doubt that Walt Whitman was gay and there is considerable evidence
that Eleanor Roosevelt was at least bisexual. Leonardo DaVinci was once
arrested on a charge of sodomy but the charges were dropped when "no
witnesses came forward."
There are many, many other historical figures rumored to have been gay,
with writings and other evidence to back those claims, but I hope the
curriculum will stay away from specific speculation and perhaps instead
discuss the historical conditions that lead gays to remain in the
closet.
Harvey Milk comes to mind as an openly gay man who contributed much to
his community. One thing that always really impressed me about Milk is
how he would deal with potentially explosive situations. There were
several times when anti-gay legislation passed and the Castro district
was ready to explode. Milk would address the furious crowd and
acknowledge their absolute right to be furious and then segue into
constructive ways to deal with the situation. He would initially seem to
be almost inciting their anger but would then slowly begin to diffuse
the situation. It was really a brilliant technique, although I'm not
explaining it all that well. If you watch some footage from these
incidents you'll see what I mean.
I suspect that, due to the dearth of openly gay historical figures, the
curriculum will focus less on "famous gays" and more on important
moments and events in the gay civil rights movement.
I recently read the book "And The Band Played On" and I believe that
would be a good book for older students to read if only to show how
disastrous bureaucracy and government inaction can be. The book doesn't
spare the gay community either in terms of those who fought common sense
ways to stop the spread of the virus. The book may be a bit graphic for
students though, but the movie might be a good edition to the
curriculum.
Last edited by Songcatcher; Jul 17, '16 at 2:11 pm.
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Jul 17, '16, 2:06 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Is it important to know why or how he was
oppressed? Taking "black" away from his narrative seems to me to
greatly diminish his personal story and experiences. And I don't believe
that keeping it in his narrative does anything to diminish anyone
else's personal story and experiences.
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Every human being has a story, some are more intense than others,
but everyone has a story. There have people of types that some time in
history were oppressed--it is their courage to break free that the real
story.
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Jul 17, '16, 2:15 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
A woman who has lived a life of privilege
and whose only accomplishment is marrying a philanderer is not really
much of a milestone in my opinion. Hillary is not a role model in any
way.
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Amen!!!
Additionally,re women being paid less then their male counterparts,Obama
has underpaid we all of his female staff compared to the males
Jul 17, '16, 2:16 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
Every human being has a story, some are
more intense than others, but everyone has a story. There have people of
types that some time in history were oppressed--it is their courage to break free that the real story.
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Then the courage of the gay community to break free from their oppression should be celebrated!
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Jul 17, '16, 2:35 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
Then the courage of the gay community to break free from their oppression should be celebrated!
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Of course, but not as gay people, but as people, and only in
accounts that were true oppression. Not having the legal right to marry
is NOT oppression.
If we go down this path, then we have to re-write all the text books and
include how brave George Washington was as a straight to face down the
Brits. Or how brave Martin Luther King Jr. was so brave as a straight
black man to push back against straight white men. We will need ten new
history books for every one we used to have--so we can include every
special interest group (including white people and straights).
There is little wonder this country is so divided--everyone seems to
want to separate themselves from everyone else--as if their own interest
group is somehow better or above the rest. Very few people desire to
just look at other people as people.
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Jul 17, '16, 2:40 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
Of course, but not as gay people, but as people, and only in accounts that were true oppression.
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But then we're back to ignoring the aspects of someone's life that led to his or her being oppressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
If we go down this path, then we have to
re-write all the text books and include how brave George Washington was
as a straight to face down the Brits. Or how brave Martin Luther King
Jr. was so brave as a straight black man to push back against straight
white men. We will need ten new history books for every one we used to
have--so we can include every special interest group (including white
people and straights).
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Washington and MLK weren't oppressed because of their sexuality.
However, MLK was oppressed because he was black. Obviously this aspect
of his life shouldn't be ignored and neither should the cause of
anyone's oppression.
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Jul 17, '16, 2:52 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
But then we're back to ignoring the aspects of someone's life that led to his or her being oppressed.
Washington and MLK weren't oppressed because of their sexuality.
However, MLK was oppressed because he was black. Obviously this aspect
of his life shouldn't be ignored and neither should the cause of
anyone's oppression.
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I did not say ignore the facts--I am saying we should NOT use
history to celebrate things like race or gender or orientation, because
if we do that, we have to do it in all cases.
Egypt oppressed the Hebrews, and with God's help they broke free. The
account is meaningful for two reasons: God helped, and the Hebrews did
break free. It would not have matter one bit if those people were black,
purple, green, white, or whatever. It also would not have mattered one
bit if they were gay or straight.
White people have been oppressed by white people, and black people have
oppressed black people--what matters is the courage to fight against the
oppression.
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Jul 17, '16, 3:53 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
Then the courage of the gay community to break free from their oppression should be celebrated!
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Wouldn't be better to celebrate the courage of people with same
sex attraction who choose not to act on a disordered inclination?
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Jul 17, '16, 3:53 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
I did not say ignore the facts--I am
saying we should NOT use history to celebrate things like race or gender
or orientation, because if we do that, we have to do it in all cases.
Egypt oppressed the Hebrews, and with God's help they broke free. The
account is meaningful for two reasons: God helped, and the Hebrews did
break free. It would not have matter one bit if those people were black,
purple, green, white, or whatever. It also would not have mattered one
bit if they were gay or straight.
White people have been oppressed by white people, and black people have
oppressed black people--what matters is the courage to fight against the
oppression.
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And are you perhaps celebrating the fact that you're Irish or of
Irish heritage or is that totally unimportant to you? Why should anyone
divide the Irish from the English and the Scottish or other Europeans?
Maybe you should call yourself humanpatrick or perhaps europeanpatrick
or britishislespatrick (although that would be celebrating Europe or the
British Isles over the rest of humanity)...
As for me, I use the name Thorolf to celebrate my Scandinavian heritage.
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Jul 17, '16, 4:26 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorolfr
And are you perhaps celebrating the fact
that you're Irish or of Irish heritage or is that totally unimportant to
you? Why should anyone divide the Irish from the English and the
Scottish or other Europeans? Maybe you should call yourself humanpatrick
or perhaps europeanpatrick or britishislespatrick (although that would
be celebrating Europe or the British Isles over the rest of humanity)...
As for me, I use the name Thorolf to celebrate my Scandinavian heritage. |
There is a difference between individuals celebrating their heritage versus placing that same celebration in history books.
If we continue to find ways to separate ourselves, we can never come
together. We seem to want to separate ourselves into our own
like-groups, and all others outside those like-groups are then somehow
seen as less. We must find a way to break free from that.
If George Washington were gay, it would not make his accomplishments any
more important than they already are. JFK's straying eye for women
(adultery) is not what defined him as President--it was things like the
Cuban Missile crisis, the Peace Corp, etc.
Last edited by irishpatrick; Jul 17, '16 at 4:39 pm.
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Jul 17, '16, 4:45 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
California public schools indoctrinating students with political correctness? What a shocker.
http://catholicism.org/the-ideology-...sexuality.html
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Jul 17, '16, 4:48 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
There is a difference between individuals celebrating their heritage versus placing that same celebration in history books.
If we continue to find ways to separate ourselves, we can never come
together. We seem to want to separate ourselves into our own
like-groups, and all others outside those like-groups are then somehow
seen as less. We must find a way to break free from that.
If George Washington were gay, it would not make his accomplishments any
more important than they already are. JFK's straying eye for women
(adultery) is not what defined him as President--it was things like the
Cuban Missile crisis, the Peace Corp, etc.
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The topic of ingroup identity is one studied by social
psychologists. Mostly all of us tend to identify ourselves according to
features of our personal and cultural identity. And anyone who is not a
member of our ingroup is, by definition, a member of an outgroup.
Although this self-identification and identification by others is a
normal way in which humans think and categorize people, it does not mean
the categorization process must include the notion that the group we
belong to is superior to other groups, or that the other groups are
inferior. Sometimes, however, perhaps too often, it does; but it is not a
natural consequence of group identity. I think that by learning to
appreciate the ideas and contributions of a whole variety of ethnic
cultures--including as well the gay culture--this serves to restrain our
thinking that our own culture is superior to others. It may be
different but that does not mean it is either better or worse.
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Jul 17, '16, 4:52 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick
There is a difference between individuals celebrating their heritage versus placing that same celebration in history books.
If we continue to find ways to separate ourselves, we can never come
together. We seem to want to separate ourselves into our own
like-groups, and all others outside those like-groups are then somehow
seen as less. We must find a way to break free from that.
If George Washington were gay, it would not make his accomplishments any
more important than they already are. JFK's straying eye for women
(adultery) is not what defined him as President--it was things like the
Cuban Missile crisis, the Peace Corp, etc.
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If we leave out all the details of people's lives, history would
be awfully dull. I think it would be quite interesting to know if George
Washington were gay. A historical biography of JFK that only included
information on the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Peace Corp would be a
very thin and uninteresting biography.
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Jul 17, '16, 5:14 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
I wonder if the sexual orientation of J Edgar Hoover will be covered in
the course, and if so, whether or not it will be celebrated?
The same would go with many of the Medici and Borgias and the popes and the LGBT orientations associated with them?
From a Catholic point of view, the lifestyles and orientations of these
rich and famous men at the height of power in Catholic Europe usually
are not celebrated.
Will they merit an honorable mention in the California curriculum, or
will the merit that they receive in any way be portrayed as honorable?
Will the history whitewash the orientations of many of the most infamous
mass murderers of American history from the pages of the books, because
sexual orientation certainly played a role in many of these
biographies, and are very much a part of the history of sexual
orientation.
All in all, the color of the Kennedys, including Teddy, have nothing on the color of the LBGT.
For sure the flag to represent the movement was a well chosen one
Everybody has got a sexual orientation. If that is going to be the
defining characteristic of a person's identity and contribution of
history, I am glad my kids are already out of the system.
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Jul 17, '16, 6:38 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
They should start, chronologically, with a field trip to visit the remains of Sodoma and Gomorrah 
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Jul 17, '16, 6:40 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion
They should start, chronologically, with a field trip to visit the remains of Sodoma and Gomorrah |
Good one!!!!
__________________
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Life.....what a beautiful choice!
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Jul 17, '16, 7:27 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
What sources would you like?
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To support this statement:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 View Post
Nobody has deemed humanities PhDs and the ultimate arbiter of
definitions. Especially in areas the delve into the economic realm, such
as discrimination. As you are probably aware, humanities PhDs are
woefully ignorant when it comes to economics. Just think of all those
who work as permanent adjuncts and somehow think they are being
discriminated against. They have a lot to learn when it comes to
economics.
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Jul 17, '16, 8:16 pm
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Re: California's students will soon learn more LGBT history in schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediliz
Good one!!!!
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Really?
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