Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case

Aug 31, '16, 7:45 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...3b67c?section= This was inevitable. Religion isn't an excuse to ignore any law you see fit!

#2   Aug 31, '16, 8:09 pm

Catholic1954 Senior Member   Join Date: December 9, 2008 Posts: 6,687 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case The article just says she is planning on using it for her defense. Since her trial is a couple of months away, time will tell if the court buys it and lets her go; I doubt it.

#3   Aug 31, '16, 8:11 pm

Inquiringperson Regular Member   Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 1,421 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...3b67c?section= This was inevitable. Religion isn't an excuse to ignore any law you see fit! Just because she is using the RFRA as a defense doesn't mean the abusive mother would necessarily win. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act says that government can't substantially burden someone's faith unless the government has a compelling interest, and if the government has a compelling interest, the government has to do so in the least restrictive way possible. In this scenario, I don't think the mother would win the case. The government has a compelling interest in defending children from abusive parents, and the government can enforce this compelling interest in a nonrestrictive way by commanding the mother to discipline her kid in a less violent manner. Spare the rod, spoil the child is not a license to scourge your child. There are more humane manners of corporal punishment.

#4   Aug 31, '16, 8:29 pm

Trader Regular Member   Join Date: June 28, 2007 Posts: 3,894 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...3b67c?section= This was inevitable. Religion isn't an excuse to ignore any law you see fit! It is not, and the people of Indiana are not dumb enough to let her do it. BTW, the headline of the article you posted is not the title you used for the thread. The rule for this forum is to use the title, partly for copyright reasons and partly so you cannot manipulate the meaning of the article. As much as I dislike the Huffington Post, they do know how to spell "defense". Just copy and paste the title next time.

#5   Aug 31, '16, 8:40 pm

St Francis Forum Elder   Join Date: August 11, 2004 Posts: 16,501 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Trader It is not, and the people of Indiana are not dumb enough to let her do it. BTW, the headline of the article you posted is not the title you used for the thread. The rule for this forum is to use the title, partly for copyright reasons and partly so you cannot manipulate the meaning of the article. As much as I dislike the Huffington Post, they do know how to spell "defense". Just copy and paste the title next time. It is hard to do all that copying and pasting on an iPod; I think he just got the title mixed up and used the UK spelling he accustomed to. ETA: oops, thought from the name he was from the UK, but apparently not __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948

#6   Aug 31, '16, 8:58 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Inquiringperson Just because she is using the RFRA as a defense doesn't mean the abusive mother would necessarily win. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act says that government can't substantially burden someone's faith unless the government has a compelling interest, and if the government has a compelling interest, the government has to do so in the least restrictive way possible. In this scenario, I don't think the mother would win the case. The government has a compelling interest in defending children from abusive parents, and the government can enforce this compelling interest in a nonrestrictive way by commanding the mother to discipline her kid in a less violent manner. Spare the rod, spoil the child is not a license to scourge your child. There are more humane manners of corporal punishment. So now we are ok with the compelling interest standard? Because the courts have held that preventing discrimination is a compelling interest.

#7   Aug 31, '16, 8:59 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by St Francis It is hard to do all that copying and pasting on an iPod; I think he just got the title mixed up and used the UK spelling he accustomed to. ETA: oops, thought from the name he was from the UK, but apparently not Siri did it.

#8   Aug 31, '16, 9:11 pm

Inquiringperson Regular Member   Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 1,421 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM So now we are ok with the compelling interest standard? Because the courts have held that preventing discrimination is a compelling interest. Well, I think everyone was always okay with the compelling interest standard. Otherwise, society would be accepting of religions that promoted human sacrifice. Yes, there is a compelling interest in preventing discrimination, but that's different from asking people to violate their deeply held religious beliefs to affirm by their actions that a gay marriage took place.

#9   Aug 31, '16, 9:12 pm

incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...3b67c?section= This was inevitable. Religion isn't an excuse to ignore any law you see fit! This law has been around in lots of other states for a long time. The democrats and LBGT lobby just chose to make a big show in Indiana, wanting to prove they were more powerful than the Christian lobby. They used the big lie technique, and it worked great! There was a letter signed by numerous law professors across the country, many pro LBGT pushing for the law. They cited a woman who died because her religion wouldn't let her have a blood transfusion, and the only treatment paid for by that state was with a blood transfusion, but she could have used a treatment in another state. By the time the court agreed with her, she died. It does not give a get-out-of-jail-free card. This law allows for a quicker decision of whether her religious rights were violated. Otherwise, the normal routine takes years of going up thru the courts until you get to the one with the power to make the religious rights determination. It keeps courts and lawyers and legal groups from abusing a person, ignoring their religious rights protections and hoping they run out of money or time before the case gets thrown out at the higher level.

#10   Aug 31, '16, 9:13 pm

Inquiringperson Regular Member   Join Date: March 11, 2011 Posts: 1,421 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM Siri did it. Huh, I never realized Siri was British. Always assumed Siri was American. Moral of the story: Never make hasty assumptions

#11   Aug 31, '16, 9:18 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Inquiringperson Huh, I never realized Siri was British. Always assumed Siri was American. Moral of the story: Never make hasty assumptions I had my settings set to UK English because I wanted to see if Siri would have a British accent. I forgot to change it.

#12   Aug 31, '16, 9:22 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Inquiringperson Well, I think everyone was always okay with the compelling interest standard. Otherwise, society would be accepting of religions that promoted human sacrifice. Yes, there is a compelling interest in preventing discrimination, but that's different from asking people to violate their deeply held religious beliefs to affirm by their actions that a gay marriage took place. This law would allow companies to fire someone for being gay (if Indiana ever passed a law providing employment protections). It doesn't specify beliefs on marriage. It is essentially a blanket defense for not obeying the law if you have a religious justification for doing so.

#13   Aug 31, '16, 9:35 pm

incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM This law would allow companies to fire someone for being gay (if Indiana ever passed a law providing employment protections). It doesn't specify beliefs on marriage. It is essentially a blanket defense for not obeying the law if you have a religious justification for doing so. That's not true. It's the same law that lots of other states have had for a long time. You have been fed a line, and you've swallowed it. Of course, it was reported in the press that way so you have a good excuse. This did not affect gays at all. But as an aside, why do gays need special protection? They make more money than the average person. Maybe Ls, Bs and Ts, but statistical information is not discussed when they are added to the civil rights laws, only anecdotal stories and emotions.

#14   Aug 31, '16, 9:52 pm

Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM So now we are ok with the compelling interest standard? Because the courts have held that preventing discrimination is a compelling interest. As long as discrimination is not invidious, discrimination is constitutional. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)

#15   Aug 31, '16, 9:57 pm

SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic

Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by incense That's not true. It's the same law that lots of other states have had for a long time. You have been fed a line, and you've swallowed it. Of course, it was reported in the press that way so you have a good excuse. This did not affect gays at all. But as an aside, why do gays need special protection? They make more money than the average person. Maybe Ls, Bs and Ts, but statistical information is not discussed when they are added to the civil rights laws, only anecdotal stories and emotions. They need special protection because there is a history of discrimination. It is still legal to fire someone based on sexual orientation in a majority of the states, and it happens. It is legal to refuse service to gay people in many states. there are groups actively lobbying to have anti gay laws passed. That's like asking why race needs to be protected under the Civil Rights Act. Read the law, it clearly would allow someone to claim exemption from any future law that would be passed providing for the civil rights of gay people. Or any other law for that matter. In fact, their law goes further than other state RFRAs. In most other states the law only applies to government action, however the Indiana law applies even if the government is not a party to the dispute. Oh, and I got that info from reading the entire text of the law, not from the way the news reported it... It's been one of my biggest complaints against the law since this all started.      Aug 31, '16, 10:02 pm SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer As long as discrimination is not invidious, discrimination is constitutional. The type of discrimination we are talking about here is invidious. It is damaging to an entire class.   #17   Sep 1, '16, 1:45 am Prodigal_40s Regular Member   Join Date: November 27, 2009 Posts: 928 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case My guess is there are a lot of Open Society Foundations employees posting on this forum. Thoughts?   #18   Sep 1, '16, 5:10 am St Francis Forum Elder   Join Date: August 11, 2004 Posts: 16,501 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM Siri did it. Quote: Originally Posted by Inquiringperson Huh, I never realized Siri was British. Always assumed Siri was American. Moral of the story: Never make hasty assumptions Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM I had my settings set to UK English because I wanted to see if Siri would have a British accent. I forgot to change it. So.... does Siri have a British accent? How could you leave that out? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948   #19   Sep 1, '16, 6:45 am exnihilo Regular Member   Join Date: June 13, 2011 Posts: 4,733 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM This law would allow companies to fire someone for being gay (if Indiana ever passed a law providing employment protections). It doesn't specify beliefs on marriage. It is essentially a blanket defense for not obeying the law if you have a religious justification for doing so. It is not a blanket defense. The US constitution especially with the interpretation of the 14th amendment already provides protection for religious beliefs, acts or failures to act. But neither the law or constitutional right has ever been conceived as to absolutely remove state authority by mere proclamation of a religious belief. __________________ We fear men so much, because we fear God so little. One fear cures another. When man's terror scares you, turn your thoughts to the wrath of God. — GK Chesterton   #20   Sep 1, '16, 6:59 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM Oh, and I got that info from reading the entire text of the law, not from the way the news reported it... It's been one of my biggest complaints against the law since this all started. So all those law professors across the country, many pro-LBGT, who read it and endorsed it, had better be ashamed because their interpretation is not as good as your read?   #21   Sep 1, '16, 7:03 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM In fact, their law goes further than other state RFRAs. In most other states the law only applies to government action, however the Indiana law applies even if the government is not a party to the dispute. . So what? First, you say most. So again this law is nothing new, it's tried and true. Second, most civil rights cases are handled by government agencies. The accuser gets a free lawyer that way. So why should the law change based on who pays for the lawyer? I suddenly don't have religious rights because you hire your own lawyer or use one from a non-profit law firm?   #22   Sep 1, '16, 7:10 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM . It is legal to refuse service to gay people in many states. Oh, come on. The news media was hunting all over like crazy trying to find a business that refused to serve gays. Even gay weddings. They finally had to resort to the little pizza shop in northern Indiana who has never been asked to serve a gay wedding. And they chose this business because they had a note on the door saying they would pray for anyone who asked. Sounds more like religion baiting to me, not sexual orientation discrimination. That would be even more reason to pass the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.   #23   Sep 1, '16, 7:22 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case [quote=SeannyM;14144111]They need special protection because there is a history of discrimination. QUOTE] That's a super vague statement. "...there is a history of discrimination." And that's the kind of proof used to add LBGT to the civil rights laws across the country. Not that there's gross injustice. Not that there's measurable discrimination. Not that there's gross unemployment or homelessness because of discrimination. Let's just randomly give this group of people exceptional legal protection because of vague notions. How about ugly people? Or fat people? Or tattooed people? Or smelly people? Or know-it-all people. Or beautiful people? Or nerdy people. There's a history of discrimination against them too. The civil rights laws came about because of gross injustice to black people. Something desperate was needed. But when you give someone exceptional rights, you're taking away someone else's. The right to employ who they think is best. The right to rent their property to who they think best. And it gives that protected group an exceptional power to abuse others. Which I think is why the LBGT group wants added to the list. That way they can litigate people into silence who dare contradict anything they say. It has little to do with employment or housing.   #24   Sep 1, '16, 8:08 am Mary Gail 36 Forum Elder   Join Date: September 5, 2005 Posts: 17,433 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by St Francis So.... does Siri have a British accent? How could you leave that out? Off topic on my part, I'm not sure about British. But she does speak Italian if you set your language to Italian. Adding, yep she does! You can set it in "Siri Settings" __________________ Jesus, protect and save the unborn. The Word became flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.   #25   Sep 1, '16, 9:27 am Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Catholic1954 The article just says she is planning on using it for her defense. Since her trial is a couple of months away, time will tell if the court buys it and lets her go; I doubt it. Opens a big can of very dirty worms if they do accept it.   #26   Sep 1, '16, 10:18 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,713 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case This is different, of course, but I recall a couple "getting off" years ago in this county because of the Indian Child Welfare Act. They were accused of child abuse because the father or grandfather (not sure which) would discipline a boy of maybe ten years of age with a stick. Division of Family Services wanted to take the kid away, because it was pretty pervasive and the parents wouldn't prevent it. But the parents invoked the ICWA. The kid and the parents both had tribal cards from the Cherokee Nation in nearby Oklahoma. So, a legal representative from the Cherokee Nation had to be involved to defend the rights of the child and parents under the ICWA. Among other things, the Indian culture of the child has to be protected from adverse "cultural" influences, and in the event of placement, the placement family has to know how to teach the child his Indian culture. That pretty well blocked the Division of Family Services because they couldn't find foster parents with Cherokee cards who could preserve the child's culture. But it went beyond that. There was testimony that harsh physical discipline is part of Indian "culture"...taking pain without flinching and all of that. So, the parents skated. I knew the people and as near as I could tell, they were just garden-variety hillbillies and there was nothing "Indian" about them other than their cards. But their lawyer sure knew what he was doing in getting the Cherokee Nation involved in it.   #27   Sep 1, '16, 10:32 am Prodigal_40s Regular Member   Join Date: November 27, 2009 Posts: 928 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner This is different, of course, but I recall a couple "getting off" years ago in this county because of the Indian Child Welfare Act. They were accused of child abuse because the father or grandfather (not sure which) would discipline a boy of maybe ten years of age with a stick. Division of Family Services wanted to take the kid away, because it was pretty pervasive and the parents wouldn't prevent it. But the parents invoked the ICWA. The kid and the parents both had tribal cards from the Cherokee Nation in nearby Oklahoma. So, a legal representative from the Cherokee Nation had to be involved to defend the rights of the child and parents under the ICWA. Among other things, the Indian culture of the child has to be protected from adverse "cultural" influences, and in the event of placement, the placement family has to know how to teach the child his Indian culture. That pretty well blocked the Division of Family Services because they couldn't find foster parents with Cherokee cards who could preserve the child's culture. But it went beyond that. There was testimony that harsh physical discipline is part of Indian "culture"...taking pain without flinching and all of that. So, the parents skated. I knew the people and as near as I could tell, they were just garden-variety hillbillies and there was nothing "Indian" about them other than their cards. But their lawyer sure knew what he was doing in getting the Cherokee Nation involved in it. Were their surnames "Warren"?   #28   Sep 1, '16, 3:31 pm incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Opens a big can of very dirty worms if they do accept it. Why is that? Because you believe the Big Lie that the press pushed that new religious rights were invented by this law. This just lets her get to that defense sooner, it doesn't giver her new rights. But it would saver her, and the state, a lot of time if the court did decide her religious rights were involved.   #29   Sep 1, '16, 4:11 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,713 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Prodigal_40s Were their surnames "Warren"? Ha! No, but they might be related.   #30   Sep 1, '16, 4:19 pm SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by St Francis So.... does Siri have a British accent? How could you leave that out? Not by changing the language settings, but I figured out how to do it another way!!! Lol.   Sep 1, '16, 4:21 pm SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by incense So all those law professors across the country, many pro-LBGT, who read it and endorsed it, had better be ashamed because their interpretation is not as good as your read? All of which law professors??   #32   Sep 1, '16, 4:26 pm SeannyM Regular Member   Join Date: April 12, 2013 Posts: 2,118 Religion: American Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner This is different, of course, but I recall a couple "getting off" years ago in this county because of the Indian Child Welfare Act. They were accused of child abuse because the father or grandfather (not sure which) would discipline a boy of maybe ten years of age with a stick. Division of Family Services wanted to take the kid away, because it was pretty pervasive and the parents wouldn't prevent it. But the parents invoked the ICWA. The kid and the parents both had tribal cards from the Cherokee Nation in nearby Oklahoma. So, a legal representative from the Cherokee Nation had to be involved to defend the rights of the child and parents under the ICWA. Among other things, the Indian culture of the child has to be protected from adverse "cultural" influences, and in the event of placement, the placement family has to know how to teach the child his Indian culture. That pretty well blocked the Division of Family Services because they couldn't find foster parents with Cherokee cards who could preserve the child's culture. But it went beyond that. There was testimony that harsh physical discipline is part of Indian "culture"...taking pain without flinching and all of that. So, the parents skated. I knew the people and as near as I could tell, they were just garden-variety hillbillies and there was nothing "Indian" about them other than their cards. But their lawyer sure knew what he was doing in getting the Cherokee Nation involved in it. The federal RFRA was used a couple of years ago successfully by some rural church to excuse them from answering questions about alleged child labor law violations. The pastor of the church said he couldn't answer questions about church activities and practices, or allow investigators access to records (with a search warrant) because their religion forbid it. He successfully avoided an investigation by refusing to acknowledge the investigation at all.   #33   Sep 2, '16, 10:49 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM All of which law professors?? The professors who wrote and signed a letter to the Indiana legislature backing the Religious Freedom of Restoration Act. The press didn't cover this because it didn't go along with the pro-gay, anti-Christian agenda. http://www.indianahouserepublicans.c.../RFRA/RFRA.pdf   #34   Sep 2, '16, 10:53 am incense Regular Member   Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 912 Religion: Catholic Re: Indiana REligious Freedom Law used as defence in child abuse case Quote: Originally Posted by SeannyM The federal RFRA was used a couple of years ago successfully by some rural church to excuse them from answering questions about alleged child labor law violations. The pastor of the church said he couldn't answer questions about church activities and practices, or allow investigators access to records (with a search warrant) because their religion forbid it. He successfully avoided an investigation by refusing to acknowledge the investigation at all. Source? And there must have been some outside evidence or why was there an investigation? Are you saying the church was employing the under aged?