Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship"

Sep 2, '16, 2:08 pm

Rob_Christopher New Member   Join Date: May 31, 2016 Posts: 9 Religion: Roman Catholic

Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" The bishop of Grantham has become the first Church of England bishop to say that he is gay and in a relationship. Bishop Nicholas Chamberlain, a suffragan in Lincoln diocese, was consecrated last year by Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby - who has said he knew about the bishop's sexuality. Bishop Chamberlain's revelation is likely to cause further tension among Anglicans. Last month 72 traditionalist members of the church's ruling general synod wrote to all bishops, encouraging them to abide by biblical teaching on sexuality. Last week the Archbishop of Canterbury said in an interview that he "couldn't see the road ahead" when it came to the Church's policy on sexuality. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257005 -- opinions --

#2   Sep 2, '16, 2:27 pm

Alex H Regular Member   Join Date: October 5, 2015 Posts: 623 Religion: Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Well, that's not good, but that's another religion so they'll have to sort it out between themselves.

#3   Sep 2, '16, 2:52 pm

MacBP Regular Member   Join Date: February 24, 2012 Posts: 752 Religion: Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Well it really is only a matter of time before the CoE falls in line with the American and Canadian Church. I can't imagine people will standard for absolutely anything connected with the government which doesn't treat same-sex relationships as identical to heterosexual relationships. The CoE, like all forms of Christianity in the West, seems to be in a bit of a tight spot. Given pressure from the government and the public, openly gay clergy, pressure from within the Church, a desire to be more inclusive, and a desire to attract new membership all push the CoE towards full acceptance of same-sex relationships. I doubt that this will help anything. One wonders why one should take anything in the Bible seriously if it can't get such a straightforward issue "right". Ultimately the probable result of such a move won't be pretty for the CoE.

#4   Sep 2, '16, 4:07 pm

PaulfromIowa Senior Member   Join Date: September 7, 2012 Posts: 6,093 Religion: Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rob_Christopher Last week the Archbishop of Canterbury said in an interview that he "couldn't see the road ahead" when it came to the Church's policy on sexuality. I think that he can see the Gospel, he just doesn't want to accept it. Reminds me of French P.M. Clemenceau: “God gave us the Ten Commandments and we broke them. Wilson gives us the Fourteen Points. We shall see."

#5   Sep 2, '16, 4:11 pm

Cheiron Banned   Join Date: June 9, 2016 Posts: 348 Religion: Secular Humanism

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" This also a matter of democracy. The 26 bishops of the Church of England have seats in the House of Lords. If a woman or gay man can't be a bishop, then that automatically means they're also banned from those 26 ecclesiastical seats in the House of Lords.

#6   Sep 2, '16, 5:20 pm

commenter Regular Member   Join Date: April 21, 2011 Posts: 3,583 Religion: Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Cheiron This also a matter of democracy. The 26 bishops of the Church of England have seats in the House of Lords. If a woman or gay man can't be a bishop, then that automatically means they're also banned from those 26 ecclesiastical seats in the House of Lords. I am guessing that 99% of UK population is effectively banned from the House of Lords, or they have unequal opportunity to get in there. So what? In any event, it is not a matter of whether someone is a "gay man", but rather, their actions. If someone prior to ordination and many times since affirmed that they would uphold the Christian faith, then conceals the fact that they are engaging another person in actions that do not uphold Christian faith, then there is dishonesty problem. It is not the sexual orientation, but the actions of sexuality and (much delayed) honesty. What else is he not telling people?

#7   Sep 2, '16, 5:39 pm

phil at dayboro Senior Member   Join Date: January 26, 2014 Posts: 8,578 Religion: catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" This is something I just can't understand ,,, Leviticus 20:13 You shall not lay with a man as you would a women Plus against children Mark 9:42 Matthew 18:6 So many times in the bible it warns against certain unacceptable behaviour,, And yet these people preach the word of God , and yet seem not to live in the word , Will I ever understand why ? Are these False prophets? Should we listen to them ? Or cast them out ? What am I to think ?

#8   Sep 2, '16, 7:04 pm

DaddyGirl Senior Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: May 29, 2011 Posts: 8,629 Religion: may the force be with you

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" I wonder if this will influence more Catholic priests who are in "gay relationships" to come out in the open about it. Tho that one priest did last year, just before the synod, and I think he resigned (or whatever the proper wording is). And that other well known priest who loved and married a female parishioner...he remained a priest, but not Catholic. Quote: Originally Posted by phil at dayboro This is something I just can't understand ,,, Leviticus 20:13 You shall not lay with a man as you would a women So many times in the bible it warns against certain unacceptable behaviour,, And yet these people preach the word of God , and yet seem not to live in the word , Will I ever understand why ? Are these False prophets? Should we listen to them ? Or cast them out ? What am I to think ? Leviticus also says we should kill these men, do you agree with that? And it says nothing about two women together...do you think that's okay? And do you agree that we should kill children who curse their parents and also, a man who has sex with his neighbor's wife? And if a married couple have sex during the wife's period, they should be shunned? Leviticus also says all spiritualists should be stoned to death. And you shouldn't wear garments containing two materials, and men shouldn't shave, or eat or touch fish. And if you are blind, lame, or disfigured...you can't go up to the altar of God. And a daughter of a priest who is deemed "immoral" should be burned to death. And you shouldn't drink alcohol in holy places (but...what about the wine during communion?). And, of course, you shouldn't pick up any grapes that have fallen to the ground. And so on, and so forth. All the above is "unacceptable behavior" in the same paragraphs as the one you quoted, and sometimes demand death. Do you agree with these, too? If Moses or whoever wrote/compiled Leviticus erred with Leviticus 12, 17, 18, 20, 24, etc... chances are good they erred with Leviticus 20:13, too. . __________________ Creator and member of The Rational Rat Pack: "Wherever you go, there you are."

#9   Sep 2, '16, 7:50 pm

phil at dayboro Senior Member   Join Date: January 26, 2014 Posts: 8,578 Religion: catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" I'm no Biblical scholar ,, I just open the bible at a random page and have a short read ,, I find my thoughts contradictory ,, for the reasons of stoning people to death as you stated , Yet we must love our enemies as ourselves , Those of you who have not sinned may cast the first stone etc I Guess this is why the New Testerment was created ,, I still have much to learn about humanity - spirituality & bible teachings just like everyone else

#10   Sep 2, '16, 8:04 pm

esieffe Regular Member   Join Date: July 26, 2013 Posts: 3,724 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" I think the CoE ship sailed a while ago. This is a natural progression of choices they have been making for a while. It is their business as far as I am concerned. They have been going "new age" for a while. What a few of us fear, I am guessing, is some sort of osmosis spread to the Catholic Church, be it SSM, female priests and the like. So far, I feel confidant that the Holy Father has no ambition to "change the rules." He has simply embraced a marginalized segment of the population. Let them know they are loved and welcome in our church. This is as it should be. As a Catholic, I understand that what the CoE does is really none of my business. I am concerned only with what the CC does. I also understand that I should revere the old covenant, but I am truly bound by the new covenant. Christ affirmed the ten commandments, but he didn't say I couldn't eat shrimp. Anyone that worries what the store across the street is doing during these "end-times" is just taking on unnecessary heartache in my opinion. __________________ “The greatest method of praying is to pray the Rosary.” – Saint Francis de Sales http://www.angelicwarfareconfraternity.org/ Major help with your fight for purity. "Ecumenism is the enemy of the Immaculata" Saint Maximilium Kolbe

#11   Sep 2, '16, 8:10 pm

Padres1969 Regular Member   Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Seems only a matter of time before the CofE joins the ECUSA, ACinC and Anglican Church of Southern Africa.

#12   Sep 2, '16, 8:10 pm

Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA)

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by esieffe Anyone that worries what the store across the street is doing during these "end-times" is just taking on unnecessary heartache in my opinion. Are these the same "end-times" that Christians have thought they were in for the last 2000 years? Even Paul seemed to think that he was in the "end times".

#13   Sep 2, '16, 8:12 pm

Hatikvah Regular Member   Join Date: November 20, 2015 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Protestant

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr Are these the same "end-times" that Christians have thought they were in for the last 2000 years? Even Paul seemed to think that he was in the "end times". Yes, but this is a linking theme between all Christians forever. But we cannot be too anxious: we are not to believe that Christ has come or is coming automatically (Matthew 24:23, Luke 17:23, Mark 13:21). We shouldn't even worry about tomorrow! (Matthew 6:34)

#14   Sep 2, '16, 8:27 pm

tseleehw Junior Member   Join Date: April 11, 2016 Posts: 367 Religion: Catholic

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" This is no surprise. The CoE will start sanctioning gay marriages sooner rather than later like many other Protestant churches. This has been coming for a long time.

#15   Sep 2, '16, 8:48 pm

Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,032 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith

Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by MacBP Well it really is only a matter of time before the CoE falls in line with the American and Canadian Church. I can't imagine people will standard for absolutely anything connected with the government which doesn't treat same-sex relationships as identical to heterosexual relationships. The CoE, like all forms of Christianity in the West, seems to be in a bit of a tight spot. Given pressure from the government and the public, openly gay clergy, pressure from within the Church, a desire to be more inclusive, and a desire to attract new membership all push the CoE towards full acceptance of same-sex relationships. I doubt that this will help anything. One wonders why one should take anything in the Bible seriously if it can't get such a straightforward issue "right". Ultimately the probable result of such a move won't be pretty for the CoE. The thing is not all forms of Christianity see it as straightforward as do Catholics and some others. Some instead have come to discern that Sodom was about homosexual gang rape and inhospitality. They see other passages as condemning gay sex when performed for a pagan ritual. They see yet other passages as referring to molesters. And see Romans as referring to it being unnatural for a straight person to engage in same sex relationships and that it is just as unnatural for the gay person to engage in a heterosexual relationship. You and other Catholics here though indeed express the Catholic belief well. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)      Sep 2, '16, 9:42 pm Rosebud77 Veteran Member   Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 10,030 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Please note that the fuller statement makes it clear that the relationship is CELIBATE.. Wish they would stop doing misleading headlines... "Nicholas Chamberlain said he is in a long-term, celibate relationship with his male partner." See http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/bis...ip-752814.html   #17   Sep 2, '16, 11:07 pm eamonnroma Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2009 Posts: 586 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by phil at dayboro This is something I just can't understand ,,, Leviticus 20:13 You shall not lay with a man as you would a women Plus against children Mark 9:42 Matthew 18:6 So many times in the bible it warns against certain unacceptable behaviour,, And yet these people preach the word of God , and yet seem not to live in the word , Will I ever understand why ? Are these False prophets? Should we listen to them ? Or cast them out ? What am I to think ? I do not think that it is possible to quote Leviticus - as Leviticus forbids many practices, these were laws for the Jewish People. How can we pick or choose which ones to follow and which ones not to follow? If we quote one, we need to follow all of them. How does a bishop's being gay offend little children?   #18   Sep 2, '16, 11:09 pm eamonnroma Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2009 Posts: 586 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by DaddyGirl I wonder if this will influence more Catholic priests who are in "gay relationships" to come out in the open about it. Tho that one priest did last year, just before the synod, and I think he resigned (or whatever the proper wording is). And that other well known priest who loved and married a female parishioner...he remained a priest, but not Catholic. Leviticus also says we should kill these men, do you agree with that? And it says nothing about two women together...do you think that's okay? And do you agree that we should kill children who curse their parents and also, a man who has sex with his neighbor's wife? And if a married couple have sex during the wife's period, they should be shunned? Leviticus also says all spiritualists should be stoned to death. And you shouldn't wear garments containing two materials, and men shouldn't shave, or eat or touch fish. And if you are blind, lame, or disfigured...you can't go up to the altar of God. And a daughter of a priest who is deemed "immoral" should be burned to death. And you shouldn't drink alcohol in holy places (but...what about the wine during communion?). And, of course, you shouldn't pick up any grapes that have fallen to the ground. And so on, and so forth. All the above is "unacceptable behavior" in the same paragraphs as the one you quoted, and sometimes demand death. Do you agree with these, too? If Moses or whoever wrote/compiled Leviticus erred with Leviticus 12, 17, 18, 20, 24, etc... chances are good they erred with Leviticus 20:13, too. . I agree with all of this. We cannot quote one line completely out of context.   #19   Sep 2, '16, 11:53 pm Rosebud77 Veteran Member   Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 10,030 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by eamonnroma I agree with all of this. We cannot quote one line completely out of context.   #20   Sep 3, '16, 4:32 am MacBP Regular Member   Join Date: February 24, 2012 Posts: 752 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe The thing is not all forms of Christianity see it as straightforward as do Catholics and some others. Some instead have come to discern that Sodom was about homosexual gang rape and inhospitality. They see other passages as condemning gay sex when performed for a pagan ritual. They see yet other passages as referring to molesters. And see Romans as referring to it being unnatural for a straight person to engage in same sex relationships and that it is just as unnatural for the gay person to engage in a heterosexual relationship. You and other Catholics here though indeed express the Catholic belief well. I know that some - notably Matthew Vine - have some particularly clever ways of looking at scripture which circumvent biblical prohibitions on homosexuality. My concern, at least for progressive Christians, would be threefold. First, its not clear to me that their attitudes towards homosexuality flow from scripture rather than their reading of scripture flowing from their attitudes towards homosexuality. If that perception is common, then people will see a cherry picking attitude towarda scripture. Secondly, its not clear to me how many of the lay faithful in progressive congregations could explain why homosexuality is OK despite some apparently clear prohibitions against it. For these individuals they really are cherry picking and the contradiction remains. Thirdly, I think many people (myself included) would have a difficult time believing that all people for nearly all of history believed that scripture condemned homosexuality only for people to discover that really scripture was secretly neutral towards it just when there is social, political and cultural pressure to come to that conclusion. So ultimately even if the progressive reading of scripture on sex is correct, I think you'll still have problems with people reconciling those issues (even among LGBT allies).   #21   Sep 3, '16, 4:40 am MacBP Regular Member   Join Date: February 24, 2012 Posts: 752 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by DaddyGirl If Moses or whoever wrote/compiled Leviticus erred with Leviticus 12, 17, 18, 20, 24, etc... chances are good they erred with Leviticus 20:13, too. He didn't error though. It was a harsh law for a harsh time meant to shape the people of Israel in preparation for the coming of Christ. Catholics don't "ignore" elements of Mosaic Law because we think they are wrong, but because they are no long relevant to our faith community after the coming of Christ and the new covenant. The question for us moderns isn't to accept or reject Leviticua wholesale, but to determine what elements are still applicable to modern life. The problem with dimissing the prohibition against homosexuality is that it appears to be a moral judgement on the action rather than a matter of ceremonial law. There's a distinction between saying that "Do this because I said so" and "Don't do this becuase its wrong". In the latter category contains the 10 commandements which we would nearly all agree is relevant today. The question is rather the prohibtion against homosexuality was a matter of ceremony or a matter of morality.   #22   Sep 3, '16, 5:46 am mikekle Veteran Member   Join Date: August 3, 2012 Posts: 10,468 Religion: raised catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Plus, the fact that 'man lying with another man' (meant to imply ALL homosexual relationships, not just men btw), was not just warned against in the old laws, many other places in the bible saying such a thing is wrong and an abomination to God. When it comes to killing someone over what to us, seems like something trivial (old Leviticus laws), that is something we must not do, Gods ways are not our ways and vice versa, we must just accept that it was the right thing to do.(no matter how we personally felt about it). Same thing would be true if those laws were in effect today. Id imagine some parents raising kids would have problems with instructing their kids to kill over anything (even if God ordered it), so I think parents today would have the same feelings, they would think they know better than God.   #23   Sep 3, '16, 7:21 am Rob_Christopher New Member   Join Date: May 31, 2016 Posts: 9 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud77 Please note that the fuller statement makes it clear that the relationship is CELIBATE.. I personally don't believe that makes a difference, he is still in a same-sex relationship. By doing this he is still acting on his 'same-sex attraction' in a self-indulgent, negative way, though not engaging in more intimate acts. Suffering same-sex attraction is certainly a cross to bear, however capitulation is not the answer.   #24   Sep 3, '16, 11:46 am Holly3278 Forum Elder Prayer Warrior   Join Date: April 21, 2005 Posts: 21,702 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" This is very sad but we should pray for him that he would repent and live a life of chastity.   #25   Sep 3, '16, 2:16 pm Hatikvah Regular Member   Join Date: November 20, 2015 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Protestant Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Holly3278 This is very sad but we should pray for him that he would repent and live a life of chastity. See: Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud77 Please note that the fuller statement makes it clear that the relationship is CELIBATE.. Wish they would stop doing misleading headlines... "Nicholas Chamberlain said he is in a long-term, celibate relationship with his male partner." See http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/bis...ip-752814.html   #26   Sep 4, '16, 6:43 am commenter Regular Member   Join Date: April 21, 2011 Posts: 3,583 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Seems only a matter of time before the CofE joins the ECUSA, ACinC and Anglican Church of Southern Africa. Without a magisterium, any denomination will tend to drift towards the dominant secular culture. This was described by Cardinal Newman. In his lifetime Anglicanism was still successful in retaining Christian orthodoxy only by the momentum of previous centuries, not by their current strength in the 19th century. I don't know if he foresaw how aggressively powerful the secular culture would become in an age of mass media, but he definitely saw how fragile the Anglican current orthodoxy was. The conservative parts of Anglicanism today may appear solid in their conviction, but in the long run...Momentum alone won't last. All denominations that drift to the secular culture forfeit any specific conversion from the gospel. Rather, they will applaud the gospel whenever it happens to coincide with secular trends. I don't mean we can judge this particular man, he may be holier overall than you or I. But we have to judge this as a matter of prudence -imprudence for this particular bishop, imprudence for the denomination that allows him to remain in this position.   #27   Sep 4, '16, 7:27 am ucfengr Regular Member   Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,132 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by commenter Without a magisterium, any denomination will tend to drift towards the dominant secular culture. This was described by Cardinal Newman. In his lifetime Anglicanism was still successful in retaining Christian orthodoxy only by the momentum of previous centuries, not by their current strength in the 19th century. I don't know if he foresaw how aggressively powerful the secular culture would become in an age of mass media, but he definitely saw how fragile the Anglican current orthodoxy was. The conservative parts of Anglicanism today may appear solid in their conviction, but in the long run...Momentum alone won't last. All denominations that drift to the secular culture forfeit any specific conversion from the gospel. Rather, they will applaud the gospel whenever it happens to coincide with secular trends. I don't mean we can judge this particular man, he may be holier overall than you or I. But we have to judge this as a matter of prudence -imprudence for this particular bishop, imprudence for the denomination that allows him to remain in this position. Even with a Magisterium, secular culture exerts a very strong influence.   #28   Sep 4, '16, 12:32 pm Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by commenter I don't mean we can judge this particular man, he may be holier overall than you or I. But we have to judge this as a matter of prudence -imprudence for this particular bishop, imprudence for the denomination that allows him to remain in this position. Some denominations such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Episcopal Church USA don't have any problem with clergy (including bishops) being gay and being in same-sex relationships and they don't even have to be celibate. I know of at least one gay bishop in the ELCA and have been introduced to his same-sex spouse. I'm sure that the Church of England is not far behind.   #29   Sep 4, '16, 12:49 pm Yeoman Regular Member   Join Date: May 15, 2010 Posts: 1,086 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rob_Christopher Last week the Archbishop of Canterbury said in an interview that he "couldn't see the road ahead" when it came to the Church's policy on sexuality. There isn't a "road ahead" in the Church of England, but rather a fork in the road. One road leads to interpretive Protestant lines of Christianity, in which you advance the portions of the Gospel you like, and excuse the remainder. This road has been gone down pretty far already in the Church of England, and very far in many Protestant churches in the US. When is the last time, for example, you head any Protestant church emphasize Christ's teaching on divorce and remarriage being adultery? No doubt somewhere it's done, but rarely, and basically this is part of the Christian faith that's just ignored in most Protestant communities. That's the same position the Church of England will take in this issue in large part everywhere, and just ignore and accommodate it, irrespective of what Christ said. The other road leads to Rome.   #30   Sep 4, '16, 1:12 pm ChaosGamma Junior Member   Join Date: February 20, 2014 Posts: 255 Religion: Roman Catholick, 3/22/15 Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe The thing is not all forms of Christianity see it as straightforward as do Catholics and some others. Some instead have come to discern that Sodom was about homosexual gang rape and inhospitality. They see other passages as condemning gay sex when performed for a pagan ritual. They see yet other passages as referring to molesters. And see Romans as referring to it being unnatural for a straight person to engage in same sex relationships and that it is just as unnatural for the gay person to engage in a heterosexual relationship. And what Church Father interpreted those passages as such? Which council? Pope? "Reformer?" Any prominent, remotely orthodox Christian prior to, say, the last century? __________________ The modern clergy preach that there is a social reform capable of wiping out the consequences of sin. From which one can deduce the pointlessness of redemption through Christ. ~Don Colacho   Sep 4, '16, 1:13 pm ChaosGamma Junior Member   Join Date: February 20, 2014 Posts: 255 Religion: Roman Catholick, 3/22/15 Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by eamonnroma I do not think that it is possible to quote Leviticus - as Leviticus forbids many practices, these were laws for the Jewish People. How can we pick or choose which ones to follow and which ones not to follow? If we quote one, we need to follow all of them. How does a bishop's being gay offend little children? Quote: Originally Posted by eamonnroma I agree with all of this. We cannot quote one line completely out of context. It's the Lutherans but they're pretty much correct. __________________ The modern clergy preach that there is a social reform capable of wiping out the consequences of sin. From which one can deduce the pointlessness of redemption through Christ. ~Don Colacho   #32   Sep 4, '16, 2:17 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by eamonnroma I agree with all of this. We cannot quote one line completely out of context. Kind of a wordy article but it explains common misunderstandings about the Mosaic Law in the context of Christianity. Quote: The Bible on Homosexual Behavior Its condemnation is on moral, not ceremonial, grounds By: Trent Horn In conclusion, if the author of Leviticus were alive today, he would say that prohibitions on same-sex intercourse apply not just to Jews who were given the Mosaic Law but also to people who can understand the natural law through their moral conscience. This is a theme St. Paul explores in the Bible’s other explicit condemnation of same-sex behavior . . . By “unnatural,” Paul did not mean these relationships contained excess sexual desire or that they were an affront to social mores (such as when he admonished men with long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14). Paul meant that the general idea of same-sex intercourse violates the image of God made known in human bodies that were created male and female . . . What all of these exchanges have in common is not a failure to adhere to society’s moral norms but a failure to adhere to the natural order seen in creation itself -- whether it’s worship of the creator or sexual relations with the natural partner. Paul even uses the Greek words for “male” and “female” instead of the Greek words for “men” and “women,” no doubt referring to the creation account in Genesis 1 which describes how God made humans “male and female” (Gen. 1:27). http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...exual-behavior Quote: The following New Testament passages deal with homosexual acts: For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Rom 1:26-27) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 6:9-10) [T]he law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. (1 Tm 1:9-10) [J]ust as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7) But God’s displeasure with acting out on homosexuality is depicted as early as Genesis 19 in the Old Testament. Also see Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. —Jim Blackburn http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...e-of-homosexua Folks also tend to forget Sacred Tradition and Natural Law, and that the Catholicism is not sola scriptura. Quote: Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357 __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #33   Sep 4, '16, 3:58 pm Young Ludovicus Junior Member   Join Date: May 11, 2015 Posts: 137 Religion: Agnostic turning Catholic? Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud77 Please note that the fuller statement makes it clear that the relationship is CELIBATE.. Wish they would stop doing misleading headlines... "Nicholas Chamberlain said he is in a long-term, celibate relationship with his male partner." See http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/bis...ip-752814.html So there's no reason to fuss about this? Having a celibate relationship doesn't qualify as a sin right. He isn't having intercourse out of wedlock. So.. I don't understand the commotion. Thanks! __________________ Born in a Dutch non-practicing Catholic family. I'm here to learn about a faith which I already hold dear. As of now I'm still agnostic who is trying to build faith in a very secular society. -Young Ludovicus   #34   Sep 4, '16, 6:46 pm Havard Senior Member   Join Date: April 9, 2009 Posts: 6,425 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Young Ludovicus So there's no reason to fuss about this? Having a celibate relationship doesn't qualify as a sin right. He isn't having intercourse out of wedlock. So.. I don't understand the commotion. Thanks! I see at least two problems with that. First of all chastity is not just about physical intercourse. Think of a married person. If they're attracted to someone other than their spouse, they have to be very real with themselves about how they interact with that person (e.g., is it flirty?), as well as how much they interact with them. It's not healthy to entertain a fantasy that cannot be followed through with, especially when the fantasy is potentially a proximate occasion of sin. Second, chaste cohabitation is a sin if it causes scandal. I.e., the optics causes others to fall into sin. In the case of a public figure, the chance of causing scandal is higher.   #35   Sep 4, '16, 8:09 pm Sy Noe Senior Member   Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,032 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by ChaosGamma And what Church Father interpreted those passages as such? Which council? Pope? "Reformer?" Any prominent, remotely orthodox Christian prior to, say, the last century? To the progressive Christian, the last century is not so easily dismissed as a time when human finite understanding of an infinite Being (God) and understanding of Scripture could not possibly evolve and grow and develop. That's what it means to be progressive. You speak the Catholic perspective well though. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #36   Sep 5, '16, 10:58 am commenter Regular Member   Join Date: April 21, 2011 Posts: 3,583 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Even with a Magisterium, secular culture exerts a very strong influence. True. Think of the Magisterium as a lighthouse, a fixed landmark on the land. During the daytime, in calm weather, most sailors might be more or less able to stay on the right path, without much consulting the lighthouse, just sort of on momentum. 50 years ago Catholics and Anglicans didn't need religious authority to tell them abortion or same sex marriage was wrong. They knew it. Today, the secular culture does exert a very powerful influence on sailors, or it urges Anglicans, Catholics, everybody, not to consult the Magisterium. So the secular culture reduces the population looking to the Magisterium, but doesn't affect the Magisterium itself. The lighthouse is not influenced by the conditions around it, but sailors can be persuaded to ignore the lighthouse.   #37   Sep 6, '16, 7:27 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rosebud77 Please note that the fuller statement makes it clear that the relationship is CELIBATE.. Wish they would stop doing misleading headlines... "Nicholas Chamberlain said he is in a long-term, celibate relationship with his male partner." See http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/bis...ip-752814.html Long-term, celibate relationships with other people are called friendships. They aren't called partners. Two men living together as friends are called roommates. The wording used by the COE leader is dangerous and contrary to the Christian faith. Quote: Originally Posted by Rob_Christopher I personally don't believe that makes a difference, he is still in a same-sex relationship. By doing this he is still acting on his 'same-sex attraction' in a self-indulgent, negative way, though not engaging in more intimate acts. Suffering same-sex attraction is certainly a cross to bear, however capitulation is not the answer. Agreed. He's indulging in the fantasy that he can be in a relationship similar to marriage with a man, even if he doesn't have sex with the man. It's false. He's intentionally blurring the reality of marriage and trying to further dismantle society's understanding of what marriage is. Quote: Originally Posted by commenter Without a magisterium, any denomination will tend to drift towards the dominant secular culture. This was described by Cardinal Newman. In his lifetime Anglicanism was still successful in retaining Christian orthodoxy only by the momentum of previous centuries, not by their current strength in the 19th century. I don't know if he foresaw how aggressively powerful the secular culture would become in an age of mass media, but he definitely saw how fragile the Anglican current orthodoxy was. The conservative parts of Anglicanism today may appear solid in their conviction, but in the long run...Momentum alone won't last. All denominations that drift to the secular culture forfeit any specific conversion from the gospel. Rather, they will applaud the gospel whenever it happens to coincide with secular trends. I don't mean we can judge this particular man, he may be holier overall than you or I. But we have to judge this as a matter of prudence -imprudence for this particular bishop, imprudence for the denomination that allows him to remain in this position. The longer one is separated from Peter, the further they drift from the Christian faith. Quote: Originally Posted by Young Ludovicus So there's no reason to fuss about this? Having a celibate relationship doesn't qualify as a sin right. He isn't having intercourse out of wedlock. So.. I don't understand the commotion. Thanks! He's pretending that another man is his "partner" and they are in a "gay relationship". This is sinful behavior to claim such. Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe To the progressive Christian, the last century is not so easily dismissed as a time when human finite understanding of an infinite Being (God) and understanding of Scripture could not possibly evolve and grow and develop. That's what it means to be progressive. You speak the Catholic perspective well though. Up next will be another Church Council to determine the question of Christ's divinity!   #38   Sep 6, '16, 7:34 am Rosebud77 Veteran Member   Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 10,030 Religion: Catholic Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Rob_Christopher I personally don't believe that makes a difference, he is still in a same-sex relationship. By doing this he is still acting on his 'same-sex attraction' in a self-indulgent, negative way, though not engaging in more intimate acts. Suffering same-sex attraction is certainly a cross to bear, however capitulation is not the answer. True and it went against the grain when I wrote that but I felt it needed saying. BUT I have female friendships? And females share houses without being in that kind of committed relationship? And I grieve for the church of my childhood and so much of my adulthood too, It was not like this then. It was strong and supportive. It was I realise suddely only thanks to clergy and friends within that Church that , literally, I survived the years of my suffering and danger. At some stage the whole fabric and foundation changed from God to this? .   #39   Sep 14, '16, 8:48 am Young Ludovicus Junior Member   Join Date: May 11, 2015 Posts: 137 Religion: Agnostic turning Catholic? Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 Long-term, celibate relationships with other people are called friendships. They aren't called partners. Two men living together as friends are called roommates. The wording used by the COE leader is dangerous and contrary to the Christian faith. Agreed. He's indulging in the fantasy that he can be in a relationship similar to marriage with a man, even if he doesn't have sex with the man. It's false. He's intentionally blurring the reality of marriage and trying to further dismantle society's understanding of what marriage is. The longer one is separated from Peter, the further they drift from the Christian faith. He's pretending that another man is his "partner" and they are in a "gay relationship". This is sinful behavior to claim such. Only a man and a woman can marry according to our lord and can procreate. To have sex if you aren't religiously married, is a sin. There's no difference between a straight couple or a same sex couple. Both are equally sinning if they have sex. Why are you singling out the same sex couples? It's not that homosexual sex is more of a sin than an unmarried cohabitating straight couple having sex. Why is it that people are focussing more on homosexual couples, while both are equal sins?! If homosexual men or women refrain from sex, they aren't sinning. Stop the witchhunt. __________________ Born in a Dutch non-practicing Catholic family. I'm here to learn about a faith which I already hold dear. As of now I'm still agnostic who is trying to build faith in a very secular society. -Young Ludovicus   #40   Sep 15, '16, 7:51 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Church of England bishop "in a gay relationship" Quote: Originally Posted by Young Ludovicus Only a man and a woman can marry according to our lord and can procreate. To have sex if you aren't religiously married, is a sin. There's no difference between a straight couple or a same sex couple. Both are equally sinning if they have sex. Why are you singling out the same sex couples? It's not that homosexual sex is more of a sin than an unmarried cohabitating straight couple having sex. Why is it that people are focussing more on homosexual couples, while both are equal sins?! If homosexual men or women refrain from sex, they aren't sinning. Stop the witchhunt. God never said the sins of homosexual sex and heterosexual sex outside marriage are equal. In fact the Bible and Church tradition says they are not equal, that homosexual sex is worse. Two homosexual men who claim to be married or in a gay relationship are sinning by promoting the evil that what they are doing is okay or that homosexuality is not intrinsically disordered. No matter if they are having sex or not, they are promoting falsity and evil.