Center for Anti-Utilitarian Philosophy

pensmama87 · #2 Aug 16, '16, 11:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader

3) A woman was convicted of perjury. This is where I get into trouble. Some studies have shown that women lie more than men. I heard this from a priest, so it must be true. On the other hand, studies by men find that women lie more, and studies by women claim men lie more. Do psychology researchers lie? Personally, I think that because women are more social than men, they have more opportunities to lie. I am surprised Ms Kane did not use the "I couldn't help it, and therefore it is not my fault" excuse.

I would actually not be surprised by this (if women do lie more.) Women are often socialized to avoid overt aggression.

J_Peterson · #3 Aug 16, '16, 12:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...y-leak-n631606

This is an incredibly unusual story for at least 3 reasons:

1) Anyone was convicted of perjury. Compared to the number of times people lie when under oath, perjury convictions are extremely rare. I have discussed this with prosecutors, and they all told me that perjury is hard to prove and usually not worth their time.

2) A politician and lawyer was convicted of perjury. Compared to the number of lies that come out of the mouths of politicians and lawyers, a conviction is nearly unknown statistically.

3) A woman was convicted of perjury. This is where I get into trouble. Some studies have shown that women lie more than men. I heard this from a priest, so it must be true. On the other hand, studies by men find that women lie more, and studies by women claim men lie more. Do psychology researchers lie? Personally, I think that because women are more social than men, they have more opportunities to lie. I am surprised Ms Kane did not use the "I couldn't help it, and therefore it is not my fault" excuse.

Will another more prominent female politician and lawyer have to do time for all the frequent liar miles she has accumulated? Don't hold your breath.

How do you know that men don't lie more and are better at it. They may even be good enough to trick a study studying lying in men and women.

BlueEyedLady · #4 Aug 16, '16, 12:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pensmama87

I would actually not be surprised by this (if women do lie more.) Women are often socialized to avoid overt aggression.

Absolutely wouldn't surprise me. Where my husband will tell a pushy neighbor or acquaintance "no", I'll make up any lie I can before I even realize it. Suddenly, I have to pretend my aunt died or I have pneumonia, all to avoid upsetting anyone.

Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with perjury. The fact that men commit murder more rarely comes up.

midori_ · #5 Aug 16, '16, 12:58 pm

According to a 2002 study, 60% of people lied at least once during a 10-minute conversation, and told an average of 2-3 lies.

pensmama87 · #6 Aug 16, '16, 1:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady

Absolutely wouldn't surprise me. Where my husband will tell a pushy neighbor or acquaintance "no", I'll make up any lie I can before I even realize it. Suddenly, I have to pretend my aunt died or I have pneumonia, all to avoid upsetting anyone.

I didn't even think of that! Yes, that feels very familiar.

Women aren't allowed to be angry and we aren't allowed to upset anybody. Under those conditions, it wouldn't surprise me at all if women were a little more "flexible with the truth."

But lying under oath is something else, I think. It's very specific circumstances and we know there is at least a theoretical penalty. Most of us probably won't have the opportunity to testify in court, anyway.

phil19034 · #7 Aug 16, '16, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pensmama87

I would actually not be surprised by this (if women do lie more.) Women are often socialized to avoid overt aggression.

My sister lies constantly... I don't think she can help herself. One day, she wasn't feeling well and said we couldn't visit because the baby was sleeping.

We were just around the corner, and said the we would just drop off some clothes we had in the garage.

When we pulled up 5 mins later, my brother-in-law was outside with the baby. My sister simply didn't want visitors because she hadn't taken a shower (even though she said she was out running errands all day).

My sister tells all these white lies in order to not offend anyone... but the truth is that its more offensive when we learn that she lied. However, I have just accepted that this is how she is... She's been doing it for 30 years, I don't expect her to stop anytime soon.

Polycarp1 · #8 Aug 16, '16, 2:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady

Absolutely wouldn't surprise me. Where my husband will tell a pushy neighbor or acquaintance "no", I'll make up any lie I can before I even realize it. Suddenly, I have to pretend my aunt died or I have pneumonia, all to avoid upsetting anyone.

Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with perjury. The fact that men commit murder more rarely comes up.

Is that true? How do we know your not lying now?

WKW_69 · #9 Aug 16, '16, 4:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...y-leak-n631606

This is an incredibly unusual story for at least 3 reasons:

1) Anyone was convicted of perjury. Compared to the number of times people lie when under oath, perjury convictions are extremely rare. I have discussed this with prosecutors, and they all told me that perjury is hard to prove and usually not worth their time.

2) A politician and lawyer was convicted of perjury. Compared to the number of lies that come out of the mouths of politicians and lawyers, a conviction is nearly unknown statistically.

3) A woman was convicted of perjury. This is where I get into trouble. Some studies have shown that women lie more than men. I heard this from a priest, so it must be true. On the other hand, studies by men find that women lie more, and studies by women claim men lie more. Do psychology researchers lie? Personally, I think that because women are more social than men, they have more opportunities to lie. I am surprised Ms Kane did not use the "I couldn't help it, and therefore it is not my fault" excuse.

Will another more prominent female politician and lawyer have to do time for all the frequent liar miles she has accumulated? Don't hold your breath.

3. All people lie. Just sayin.. I can honestly say as a child I would lie to stay out of trouble. I outgrew that but many people don't or think the rules don't apply to them. Like big shot lawyers Bill Clinton and her..

incense · #10 Aug 16, '16, 5:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...y-leak-n631606

1) Anyone was convicted of perjury. Compared to the number of times people lie when under oath, perjury convictions are extremely rare. I have discussed this with prosecutors, and they all told me that perjury is hard to prove and usually not worth their time.
(

I believe this is true.

So the conclusion is that if one is ever called to testify, just lie when convenient because there is no penalty? (Unless you are an Christian, then you testify truthfully while the other side lies freely without penalty therefore swaying the trial to their side.)

Perhaps, the laws should be changed to have a severe penalty for perjury, that is quickly and easily caught and punished. Otherwise the courts are a joke, there is no justice; And without justice, there is no peace.

Since we're supposedly no longer a Christian nation, and truth is no longer a virtue, we need to have watchers on everyone and everything to prevent cheating. Expensive in so many ways.

Trader · #11 Aug 16, '16, 6:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by incense

I believe this is true.

So the conclusion is that if one is ever called to testify, just lie when convenient because there is no penalty? (Unless you are an Christian, then you testify truthfully while the other side lies freely without penalty therefore swaying the trial to their side.)

Perhaps, the laws should be changed to have a severe penalty for perjury, that is quickly and easily caught and punished. Otherwise the courts are a joke, there is no justice; And without justice, there is no peace.

Since we're supposedly no longer a Christian nation, and truth is no longer a virtue, we need to have watchers on everyone and everything to prevent cheating. Expensive in so many ways.

Perjury is listed in the catechism as an example of something that is intrinsically wrong. When you take an oath, you formally ask God to be your witness. Perjury is the choice to lie in the face of God.

If you would like to watch a good movie on the meaning and consequences of oaths, I would recommend the 1967 Academy Award winning best picture, A Man for All Seasons. Pay special attention to the scene where Thomas More explains to his wife why he could not discuss his reasoning with her, so she would not have to choose between testifying against him or testifying falsely. The quote is something like, "When you put your hand on that book, you hold your very self in your hand, and if you lose it, you may never get it back again." Thomas also paraphrases Mark 8:36, when Richard Rich perjures himself at More's trial, "It profits a man nothing if he should gain the whole world, but loses his soul, but for Wales?

Dwyer · #12 Aug 16, '16, 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by incense

Since we're supposedly no longer a Christian nation, and truth is no longer a virtue, we need to have watchers on everyone and everything to prevent cheating. Expensive in so many ways.

The Panopticonic society envisioned by Jeremy Bentham is coming into being--body cams, dash cams, Store cams, Smart phone cams, etc.

Quote:

"The more strictly we are watched, the better we behave."

--Jeremy Bentham

unpublished, from the manuscripts of Jeremy Bentham in the Library of University College London

http://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsph...jeremy-bentham

Quote:

The design consists of a circular structure with an "inspection house" at its centre, from which the manager or staff of the institution are able to watch the inmates, who are stationed around the perimeter. Bentham conceived the basic plan as being equally applicable to hospitals, schools, sanatoriums, daycares, and asylums, but he devoted most of his efforts to developing a design for a Panopticon prison, and it is his prison which is most widely meant by the term . . .

Although not directly named, the telescreens which are omnipresent in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949) of which "there was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment... you had to live... in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinised."[57] are based on the founding principle of the Panopticon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

phil19034 · #13 Aug 17, '16, 9:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwyer

The Panopticonic society envisioned by Jeremy Bentham is coming into being--body cams, dash cams, Store cams, Smart phone cams, etc.

Then we need camara in all the offices of every single elected and non-elected public official....

http://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsph...jeremy-bentham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Center for Anti-Utilitarian Philosophy

Monday, August 28, 2017

Pennsylvania Attorney General Kathleen Kane Convicted of Perjury in Leak

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