Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions

May 11, '16, 4:38 pm

Bubba Switzler   Join Date: December 1, 2008 Posts: 4,826 Religion: Pagan Catholic

Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Italy on Wednesday joined the rest of the Western world in extending legal recognition to same-sex relationships with parliament overwhelmingly backing gay civil unions after a long battle to overcome opposition led by the Catholic church. https://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-hol...96.html?ref=gs

#2   May 11, '16, 4:44 pm

Finite Regular Member   Join Date: November 22, 2014 Posts: 633 Religion: God-believing nonchristian

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Good. The church should have no say in civil law. In doing so it discriminates against anyone whose not a follower of that particular church.

#3   May 11, '16, 4:50 pm

TCEL Regular Member   Join Date: January 17, 2014 Posts: 2,440 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions I thought the Vatican was it's own state? The word "overrules" makes it sound like Italy's a theocracy. What is the relationship? __________________ From Jewish Passover to Christian Eucharist: the Story of the Todah “If men will not be governed by the Ten Commandments, they shall be governed by the ten thousand commandments.” ― G.K. Chesterton

#4   May 11, '16, 5:33 pm

Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler https://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-hol...96.html?ref=gs There is still one nation with part of its roots in the West that doesn't legally recognize same-sex civil unions or marriages and that's Israel. So that opening sentence of the Yahoo news story quoted in the OP is not a true statement. Quote: Marriage is an exclusively religious institution in Israel, with separate religious authorities for Jews and Muslims, Christians and Druze. For Israeli Jews, marriage policy is dictated by the Chief Rabbinate, which is under the exclusive control of the Orthodox—and firmly opposed to gay marriage. Since the country has no civil marriage, gay couples seeking to marry within the borders of Israel are out of luck (as are any Jewish Israelis seeking a non-Orthodox marriage ceremony) http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...ere_s_why.html See also: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=997247 I'm glad that there is still one country in the Greater Western World that still recognizes that two male or female friends can't get married and that the discrimination argument is more Benthamism in action. If we can't be discriminated against and we are all equal, how come Henry Ford II still gets a bigger paycheck than I do? __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.) Last edited by Dwyer; May 11, '16 at 5:49 pm.

#5   May 11, '16, 5:42 pm

GaryTaylor Forum Elder   Join Date: March 30, 2010 Posts: 26,098 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: If we can't be discriminated against and we are all equal, how come Henry Ford II still gets a bigger paycheck than I do? That goes under the flawed principle of equal rights, great theory. but in practical application seriously flawed. We're still working out the details.

#6   May 11, '16, 6:16 pm

johnnyt3000 Regular Member Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: September 9, 2013 Posts: 967 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Finite Good. The church should have no say in civil law. In doing so it discriminates against anyone whose not a follower of that particular church. The Church should have no say in civil law? What if civil law determined that people of a particular race were not legal persons? Should the Church have a say in protecting the rights of those people? The word "discriminate" means to differentiate or distinguish; it's not intrinsically evil. When I'm driving I discriminate between the red light and the green light; and I can only go if the light is green. Unjust discrimination is wrong. Marriage can only be between one man and one woman. It's embedded in human nature. To proclaim this is not unjust discrimination, but to speak truth.

#7   May 11, '16, 6:31 pm

JurisPrudens Regular Member   Join Date: July 21, 2015 Posts: 1,205 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler https://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-hol...96.html?ref=gs Actually, they did not allow them to adopt children. So, this law is more of a compromise.

#8   May 11, '16, 6:37 pm

Karen107 Regular Member   Join Date: January 17, 2013 Posts: 1,544 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by johnnyt3000 The Church should have no say in civil law? What if civil law determined that people of a particular race were not legal persons? Should the Church have a say in protecting the rights of those people? The word "discriminate" means to differentiate or distinguish; it's not intrinsically evil. When I'm driving I discriminate between the red light and the green light; and I can only go if the light is green. Unjust discrimination is wrong. Marriage can only be between one man and one woman. It's embedded in human nature. To proclaim this is not unjust discrimination, but to speak truth. The Church may have a voice but the Church is not a political entity..It's a family of God.

#9   May 11, '16, 6:47 pm

Bubba Switzler   Join Date: December 1, 2008 Posts: 4,826 Religion: Pagan Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by JurisPrudens Actually, they did not allow them to adopt children. So, this law is more of a compromise. I would hesitate to call that a compromise. They will be back for the rest later.

#10   May 11, '16, 7:59 pm

mikekle Veteran Member   Join Date: August 3, 2012 Posts: 10,440 Religion: raised catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions We only need to look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah as a result of this type of sinning over a long enough time period, to predict what is going to come eventually...God will not allow this to go on forever. Those nations, cities, etc that recognize and accept this behavior will be destroyed.

#11   May 11, '16, 8:08 pm

tseleehw Junior Member   Join Date: April 11, 2016 Posts: 367 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Unfortunately this will lead to full fledged gay marriage and eventually gay adoptions. This law should have been opposed forcefully by the Italian bishops and Pope Francis, but now it is too late. I know some bishops spoke out against the law, but a more definitive statement from Pope Francis would have helped. Just don't complain about it later when the gay rights activists come back for more.

#12   May 11, '16, 8:33 pm

Thom18 Regular Member   Join Date: January 8, 2016 Posts: 792 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler I would hesitate to call that a compromise. They will be back for the rest later. I have no doubts. That's exactly what happened here in the US. The rest of the western world is going to follow suit. We're so open minded that our brains are falling out.

#13   May 11, '16, 8:44 pm

dmar198 Regular Member   Join Date: December 21, 2006 Posts: 3,914 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by tseleehw This law should have been opposed forcefully by the Italian bishops and Pope Francis, but now it is too late. I know some bishops spoke out against the law, but a more definitive statement from Pope Francis would have helped. I appreciate what the pope said, clarifying that voting with a right conscience involves voting with the Church. "[A] Catholic in Parliament must vote according to his or her well-formed conscience... I say 'well-formed' because the conscience is not 'whatever I think'. I remember when same-sex marriage was voted on in Buenos Aires, there was a vote, and at the end one said to the other... 'if we reach a quorum, we’ll give the vote to [same-sex marriage]!', and the other [said]: 'I would rather give the vote to [same-sex marriage] than to Bergoglio!', and so forth. This is not a well-formed conscience! And regarding people of the same sex, I repeat...what is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church." source That comment seems to have gone underreported in the media, because it directly connects voting on "same-sex marriage" in modern times with Pope Francis's strong opposition when he was bishop of Argentina, and with the teaching of the Catechism. The pope criticizes politicians who voted for "same-sex marriage" because they did not vote with a well-formed conscience, and he says we have a duty to vote with a well-formed conscience. I don't remember either Pope Benedict or St. John Paul 2 speaking about the limitations of conscience with such clarity. But clarity isn't gonna do it if the media doesn't report it, and that seems to be what happened on this issue. __________________ The best way to put someone at ease is to be informed and just stick with the truth. Free Church Fathers Android App 24+ Anti-Liberal Statements by Pope Francis Five Ways Vatican II Condemned Modernism Apologetics and the SSPX - 10 Objections to the New Mass, Answered

#14   May 11, '16, 9:25 pm

RPRPsych Banned Prayer Warrior   Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,112 Religion: Catholic. I leave the adjectives to wiser heads.

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by dmar198 I appreciate what the pope said, clarifying that voting with a right conscience involves voting with the Church. "[A] Catholic in Parliament must vote according to his or her well-formed conscience... I say 'well-formed' because the conscience is not 'whatever I think'. I remember when same-sex marriage was voted on in Buenos Aires, there was a vote, and at the end one said to the other... 'if we reach a quorum, we’ll give the vote to [same-sex marriage]!', and the other [said]: 'I would rather give the vote to [same-sex marriage] than to Bergoglio!', and so forth. This is not a well-formed conscience! And regarding people of the same sex, I repeat...what is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church." source That comment seems to have gone underreported in the media, because it directly connects voting on "same-sex marriage" in modern times with Pope Francis's strong opposition when he was bishop of Argentina, and with the teaching of the Catechism. The pope criticizes politicians who voted for "same-sex marriage" because they did not vote with a well-formed conscience, and he says we have a duty to vote with a well-formed conscience. I don't remember either Pope Benedict or St. John Paul 2 speaking about the limitations of conscience with such clarity. But clarity isn't gonna do it if the media doesn't report it, and that seems to be what happened on this issue. And Pope Francis also condemned gay marriage and LGBTQ ideology in his most recent document.

#15   May 12, '16, 4:24 am

JurisPrudens Regular Member   Join Date: July 21, 2015 Posts: 1,205 Religion: Catholic

Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler I would hesitate to call that a compromise. They will be back for the rest later. We are ready to give everyone who comes with a sword to the sacred land a "warm welcome".       May 12, '16, 5:44 am mikekle Veteran Member   Join Date: August 3, 2012 Posts: 10,440 Religion: raised catholic Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by dmar198 I appreciate what the pope said, clarifying that voting with a right conscience involves voting with the Church. "[A] Catholic in Parliament must vote according to his or her well-formed conscience... I say 'well-formed' because the conscience is not 'whatever I think'. I remember when same-sex marriage was voted on in Buenos Aires, there was a vote, and at the end one said to the other... 'if we reach a quorum, we’ll give the vote to [same-sex marriage]!', and the other [said]: 'I would rather give the vote to [same-sex marriage] than to Bergoglio!', and so forth. This is not a well-formed conscience! And regarding people of the same sex, I repeat...what is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church." source That comment seems to have gone underreported in the media, because it directly connects voting on "same-sex marriage" in modern times with Pope Francis's strong opposition when he was bishop of Argentina, and with the teaching of the Catechism. The pope criticizes politicians who voted for "same-sex marriage" because they did not vote with a well-formed conscience, and he says we have a duty to vote with a well-formed conscience. I don't remember either Pope Benedict or St. John Paul 2 speaking about the limitations of conscience with such clarity. But clarity isn't gonna do it if the media doesn't report it, and that seems to be what happened on this issue. Well, back when he visited the US and had the perfect chance to address US lawmakers about recently legalizing it at the federal level, instead, he chose not to mention it at all, and I believe he spoke mainly about climate change...???   #17   May 12, '16, 6:31 am Peebo Regular Member   Join Date: March 27, 2013 Posts: 1,383 Religion: Catholic Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer There is still one nation with part of its roots in the West that doesn't legally recognize same-sex civil unions or marriages and that's Israel. So that opening sentence of the Yahoo news story quoted in the OP is not a true statement. http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...ere_s_why.html See also: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=997247 I'm glad that there is still one country in the Greater Western World that still recognizes that two male or female friends can't get married and that the discrimination argument is more Benthamism in action. If we can't be discriminated against and we are all equal, how come Henry Ford II still gets a bigger paycheck than I do? Australia does not recognize same sex marriage..the Federal Marriage Act states that marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman..individual states may allow what is referred to as de-facto relationships..but not marriage   #18   May 12, '16, 6:53 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by Finite Good. The church should have no say in civil law. In doing so it discriminates against anyone whose not a follower of that particular church. Yes, only our virulently secularist, atheistic and humanistic overlords should have a say.....   #19   May 12, '16, 8:21 am ThinkingSapien Regular Member   Join Date: July 15, 2011 Posts: 4,506 Religion: I'm a Software Engineer :) 😊 Re: Italy overrules Church with green light for gay unions Quote: Originally Posted by TCEL I thought the Vatican was it's own state? The word "overrules" makes it sound like Italy's a theocracy. What is the relationship? I thought the same thing. "overrule" only seems to be applicable if the Vatican was ruling over Italy. Quote: Originally Posted by mikekle We only need to look at what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah as a result of this type of sinning over a long enough time period, to predict what is going to come eventually... I think it would be necessary to first convince Parliment that the events of Sodom and Gomorrah happened. Quote: Originally Posted by mikekle Well, back when he visited the US and had the perfect chance to address US lawmakers about recently legalizing it at the federal level, instead, he chose not to mention it at all, and I believe he spoke mainly about climate change...??? Perhaps he was trying to only speak where he thought he might more effectively make a difference ( ? ).