Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says

Aug 3, '16, 9:12 pm

johnnyc176 Regular Member Join Date: October 3, 2010 Posts: 3,980 Religion: Catholic

Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...us-says-62062/ Quote: “We need to end the political manipulation of Catholic voters by abortion advocates,” he said. “It is time to end the entanglement of Catholic people with abortion killing. It is time to stop creating excuses for voting for pro-abortion politicians.” __________________ The celebration of Holy Mass has the same value as the Death of Jesus on the Cross. - St. Thomas Aquinas St. Louis IX pray for us!

#2   Aug 3, '16, 9:40 pm

abucs Regular Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Posts: 3,168 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by johnnyc176 http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...us-says-62062/ Fine with me.

#3   Aug 4, '16, 5:17 am

jaimeleglise Regular Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Posts: 2,367 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Potomac I wish it would be taken one step further and declared to be mortally sinful to vote for such politicians. I completely agree. I believe it to be a mortal sin and should be proclaimed as such. I cringe when people vote based on physical attractiveness or personality and not the crucial issues.

#4   Aug 4, '16, 6:38 am

goout Regular Member Join Date: July 29, 2016 Posts: 2,033 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says In the first place, most Catholics don't even understand morality. Don't know what it is, what it's sources are. What it means to have a well formed conscience. What human dignity is and what it is based on. This is not very fertile ground for a responsible vote. Until Catholics understand their faith and come to really know Jesus Christ, exhortations to vote properly will not bear fruit. We are all responsible for Christian formation, but our pastors are especially responsible, on this feast of St John Vianney. Our pastors are passing down the Christian faith as they received it from their pastors. Etc.... Voting responsibly is a huge step down the road for American Catholics.

#5   Aug 4, '16, 6:42 am

SilverLight Regular Member Join Date: April 1, 2012 Posts: 850 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by jaimeleglise I completely agree. I believe it to be a mortal sin and should be proclaimed as such. I cringe when people vote based on physical attractiveness or personality and not the crucial issues. I mean people are allowed to vote for who they want in the USA if I am not mistaken there is a right to do that and freedom. The military, jobs, economics etc are very important along with things having to do with abortion. Everything needs to be looked at not just one or two subjects. __________________ "All seekers of knowledge come to me, sooner or later." - -Hermaeus Mora You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -Mahatma Gandhi Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony. -Mahatma Gandhi

#6   Aug 4, '16, 6:59 am

Jake Parker Junior Member Join Date: October 2, 2012 Posts: 140 Religion: Catholic (Unofficial)

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by SilverLight I mean people are allowed to vote for who they want in the USA if I am not mistaken there is a right to do that and freedom. The military, jobs, economics etc are very important along with things having to do with abortion. Everything needs to be looked at not just one or two subjects. Exactly! There are so many issues to be considered, many that have to do with improving lives. I am not saying abortions are acceptable, but we should not focus on government to fix the problem. We need to continue reaching out to those women that choose to visit abortion clinics. Perhaps being legal, it actually makes it easier to find the women that want an abortion so that we can talk/pray with them to not do it. Being illegal, they will be much harder to find, because we wouldn't know where they're going to get the abortion, and wouldn't be able to talk/pray with them. These are not excuses, just trying to think of positive outcomes for our current problems. __________________ Not easy to watch. That's the point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGIrAPSZvbU

#7   Aug 4, '16, 7:09 am

FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says We're not supposed to be one-issue voters. We're supposed to look at the gravity of each issue, what's going on at the time, and prudentially make a decision. Having said that, there are a million babies killed every year in the USA, and the issue is a grave one. At this point in time, in our geography, IMHO, abortion is a #1 issue. I can't see a scenario where abortion falls down the list of importance beneath economics, general welfare of the people, healthcare systems, etc. I don't see a scenario where you can vote for a pro-abortion candidate unless the scenario is only a selection of pro abortion candidates with no pro life candidate available. This is my prudential assessment, not canon law.

#8   Aug 4, '16, 7:44 am

Garyjohn2 Regular Member Join Date: April 28, 2009 Posts: 1,677 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by FghtinIrshNvrDi We're not supposed to be one-issue voters. We're supposed to look at the gravity of each issue, what's going on at the time, and prudentially make a decision. Having said that, there are a million babies killed every year in the USA, and the issue is a grave one. At this point in time, in our geography, IMHO, abortion is a #1 issue. I can't see a scenario where abortion falls down the list of importance beneath economics, general welfare of the people, healthcare systems, etc. I don't see a scenario where you can vote for a pro-abortion candidate unless the scenario is only a selection of pro abortion candidates with no pro life candidate available. This is my prudential assessment, not canon law. What you are saying makes sense. At the same time, the views of the president on abortion are almost moot. Yes, they may pick a supreme court justice -- but there is no guarantee that the one they pick will be pro-life. A conservative candidate may pick a pro-choice or neutral justice that is conservative in other areas, for example. We do have to look at all the issues, but certain issues have little to do with the officials we elect. Abortion is more grave than foreign relations, or perhaps even more grave than war -- however a president will have much more influence on foreign relations and warfare than abortion policy. Just something to consider. For the record I don't like any of the presidential candidates, so that does not color my views on this.

#9   Aug 4, '16, 7:51 am

FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Garyjohn2 What you are saying makes sense. At the same time, the views of the president on abortion are almost moot. Yes, they may pick a supreme court justice -- but there is no guarantee that the one they pick will be pro-life. A conservative candidate may pick a pro-choice or neutral justice that is conservative in other areas, for example. We do have to look at all the issues, but certain issues have little to do with the officials we elect. Abortion is more grave than foreign relations, or perhaps even more grave than war -- however a president will have much more influence on foreign relations and warfare than abortion policy. Just something to consider. For the record I don't like any of the presidential candidates, so that does not color my views on this. I agree with you. Only one tiny little itsy-bitsy clarification. The next President will choose at least one Supreme Court justice that has the chance to upset the balance. We're on the verge of losing religious liberty as well. As far as more prudence and looking down the road - the Congress isn't likely to flip to Democrat any time in the next 4 years. Congress will fight tooth & nail to stop Trump (check & balance) but we have seen in the last 6 years that the Republican Congress will roll over and play dead any time a Democrat wants something (no check & balance). Nothing radical will happen under Trump but under Hildabeast we might see a cowering Congress that lets her have free reign.

#10   Aug 4, '16, 7:58 am

Della Forum Elder Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says There are certain non-negotiable issues for us Catholics--abortion and euthanasia top the list of these. Economic systems come and go, educational ideas come and go, etc, but what constitutes a living human being doesn't. It's immutable that every person is a human being, and so worthy of the dignity of any other human being no matter his age. This goes for killing off the elderly, disabled, and infirm in the name of "mercy," as well as abortion. All human life is sacrosanct since we are created in the image of God. No one has the right to take innocent human life (see the Catechism: http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com...it=Search&s=SS and http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com...it=Search&s=SS). Certainly not for selfish motivations, or over and above who gets a bigger paycheck, or who can use the restroom: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...l-citizenship/. I agree with goout that far too many Catholics are clueless about their civil responsibilities as Catholics. They need to be educated, and they need to converted from thinking they are free to vote for whomever they please without violating their own Church's laws. They need to be converted from being cultural Catholics to real ones. How culpable they are of sin by voting against Church teaching is between them and their confessors, but they need to be told the truth instead of lulled into thinking it doesn't matter to God who they vote for or why. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"

#11   Aug 4, '16, 8:11 am

Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Well then there's only one of the 4 candidates for president you can vote for if you're a Knight of Columbus I guess...

#12   Aug 4, '16, 8:22 am

Della Forum Elder Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Well then there's only one of the 4 candidates for president you can vote for if you're a Knight of Columbus I guess... For the highest office in the country, yes. We are often challenged to be counter-cultural, especially in a culture that denies we can discriminate between one thing and another--as if every opinion that comes into anyone's head is as true as anyone else's. Such indifferentism is at the heart of our civil problems, although most aren't aware of it or would deny it if they were told because they are so sold on the idea that everyone is perfectly equal in every way--even in virtue, which is just plain ridiculous. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"

#13   Aug 4, '16, 9:51 am

zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Jake Parker Exactly! There are so many issues to be considered, many that have to do with improving lives. I am not saying abortions are acceptable, but we should not focus on government to fix the problem. We need to continue reaching out to those women that choose to visit abortion clinics. Perhaps being legal, it actually makes it easier to find the women that want an abortion so that we can talk/pray with them to not do it. Being illegal, they will be much harder to find, because we wouldn't know where they're going to get the abortion, and wouldn't be able to talk/pray with them. These are not excuses, just trying to think of positive outcomes for our current problems. CCC 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged. The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community. 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49 When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

#14   Aug 4, '16, 9:56 am

Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Well then there's only one of the 4 candidates for president you can vote for if you're a Knight of Columbus I guess... I doubt the Knights favor empty gestures. At present there are only two candidates who have a ghost of a chance of winning. One is partly prolife and has expressed no desire to promote abortion or public funding of it, and does not insist we must "change our religion". The other is totally pro-abortion, wants public funding for it and wants us to "change our religion" to accommodate it. The choice is clear.

#15   Aug 4, '16, 10:05 am

LeafByNiggle Veteran Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic

Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della There are certain non-negotiable issues for us Catholics--abortion and euthanasia top the list of these. There are moral issues and issues of prudential judgement. All moral issues are non-negotiable. Abortion is not unique in that sense. Here is an example. We want to attend mass when we are physically able. Mass attendance is never listed as one of the non-negotiables. Yet it is non-negotiable too. Can you imagine negotiating away your right to attend mass in return from some favor or another? Or can you imagine negotiating away any other truly moral issue?  Aug 4, '16, 10:06 am Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner I doubt the Knights favor empty gestures. At present there are only two candidates who have a ghost of a chance of winning. One is partly prolife and has expressed no desire to promote abortion or public funding of it, and does not insist we must "change our religion". The other is totally pro-abortion, wants public funding for it and wants us to "change our religion" to accommodate it. The choice is clear. Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not.   #17   Aug 4, '16, 10:09 am FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not. You're putting your politics before your religion.   #18   Aug 4, '16, 10:16 am LeafByNiggle Veteran Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by FghtinIrshNvrDi You're putting your politics before your religion. I'd say no. The issues Padres1969 cited were all relevant to religion. There wasn't any mention of a strictly political issue.   #19   Aug 4, '16, 10:18 am Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by FghtinIrshNvrDi You're putting your politics before your religion. Not really, no. My church doesn't endorse or support abortion except in grave circumstances such as rape, incest, mother's life in danger, but it also doesn't endorse an outright ban either like the RCC. That said, even if it did support the RCC position of an outright ban, how would it be putting politics before religion to not vote for a pro-choice candidate, which both of the major candidates are? It seems to me voting for either major candidate despite their position, which is pro-choice (one a little more than the other, but lets not fool ourselves, both are pro-choice), when there is a true pro-life candidate (which there is though not the D or R), would be putting politics before religion.   #20   Aug 4, '16, 10:21 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not. I think we can reasonably count on Trump not supporting abortion nationwide since he favors state-level decisions about that. Clinton supports it nationwide, including partial birth abortion. And Trump supports Supreme Court nominees likely to be prolife while Clinton openly supports appointments that are pro-abortion. Voting matters. George Bush appointed two prolife justices. Obama appointed two pro-abortion justices. In "Gonzales vs. Carhart" all Repub appointees supported state bans on partial birth abortion. All Dem nominees opposed any bans on partial birth abortion. One can excuse Hillary Clinton all one wants and put whatever words one wants into Trump's mouth, but if one takes both at their word, Clinton is the actively pro abortion candidate, while Trump is not. As to the assertion that Trump won't say whether any of his paramours had an abortion or not, first of all he might not know, but secondly he would have had no say in the decision anyway. Did Hillary Clinton ever say whether she ever had an abortion?   #21   Aug 4, '16, 10:22 am Della Forum Elder Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not. He is the least objectionable of either candidate on this issue--that's all we need to vote for him when we know the overt abortion agenda of the other. Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle There are moral issues and issues of prudential judgement. All moral issues are non-negotiable. Abortion is not unique in that sense. Here is an example. We want to attend mass when we are physically able. Mass attendance is never listed as one of the non-negotiables. Yet it is non-negotiable too. Can you imagine negotiating away your right to attend mass in return from some favor or another? Or can you imagine negotiating away any other truly moral issue? That issue isn't up for grabs in this election. When it is, then we'll have to vote accordingly. Abortion and euthanasia top the list of non-negotiables.. Still, I am fully aware that one of the two main parties wants to redefine "freedom of religion" as "freedom of worship" so that they can shut people of faith voices out of the public square. It's an important issue, but it doesn't top the chart, to coin a phrase. As it stands, no one currently is suggesting that people can't attend the house of worship of their choice. In fact, as long as we stay in our houses of worship and keep our mouths shut one party would rejoice at our silence. So, we have to speak up on those issues that are immutable. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"   #22   Aug 4, '16, 10:23 am Suudy Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2004 Posts: 6,451 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Ridge already answered. One is rabidly pro-life and wants you and me to help pay for it. The other is wishy-washy but has at least said he doesn't want to expand abortion. Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. They answers have very different tenors. One's answer is that we must change our religion, wants to eliminate all restrictions, and wants the government to pay for them. The other just leaves the status quo. Neither are particularly pro-life, but one certainly is less pro-abortion than the other. Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not. Why should he? It the usual leftist trap question. If he answers "Yes," then the left will scream "Hypocrite!" Ben Shapiro has a great blurb on this. The point is to try and corner people with proof that they've violated their own rules. But that doesn't prove the rule is wrong, it only proves that somebody failed to live up to the rule. So, the question is entirely irrelevant. The answer doesn't change the nature of the whether abortion is wrong or should be opposed. __________________ Tiber Swim Team '05 "To love for the sake of being loved is human; to love for the sake of loving is Angelic." -- Alphonse de Lamartine   #23   Aug 4, '16, 10:29 am CarolNoel Regular Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 2,369 Religion: Catholic - Forever Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by jaimeleglise I completely agree. I believe it to be a mortal sin and should be proclaimed as such. I cringe when people vote based on physical attractiveness or personality and not the crucial issues. I agree, and very well said too. __________________ When you feel like you are drowning in life, don't worry. Your LIFEGUARD walks on water.   #24   Aug 4, '16, 10:35 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle There are moral issues and issues of prudential judgement. All moral issues are non-negotiable. Abortion is not unique in that sense. Here is an example. We want to attend mass when we are physically able. Mass attendance is never listed as one of the non-negotiables. Yet it is non-negotiable too. Can you imagine negotiating away your right to attend mass in return from some favor or another? Or can you imagine negotiating away any other truly moral issue? The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorize or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a "grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. [...] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to 'take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’" (no. 73). Christians have a "grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. [...] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it" (no. 74). Pope Benedict XVI "No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion," "You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone" Cardinal Burke In considering "the sum total of social conditions," there is, however, a certain order of priority, which must be followed. Conditions upon which other conditions depend must receive our first consideration. The first consideration must be given to the protection of human life itself, without which it makes no sense to consider other social conditions. "The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2273). Cardinal Burke ]Note that [“proportionate reasons’] does not mean simply weighing a wide range of issues against abortion and euthanasia and concluding that they cumulatively outweigh the evil of taking an innocent life. Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions Bishop Joseph A. Galante There is only one thing that could be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion, and that is the protection of innocent human life. That may seem to be contradictory, but it is not. "Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: candidate (A, Kerry) who is completely for abortion-on-demand, candidate (B, Bush) who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and candidate (C, Peroutka), a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable. "The Catholic voter cannot vote for candidate (A, Kerry) because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation, which would remove restrictions on, abortion-on-demand. "The Catholic can vote for candidate (C, Peroutka) but that will probably only help ensure the election of candidate (A, Kerry). Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for candidate (B, Bush) since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and introduces legislation restricting abortion-on-demand. In such a case, the Catholic voter would have chosen the lesser of two evils, which is morally permissible under these circumstances." Bishop Rene Gracida What are “proportionate reasons”? To consider that question, we must first repeat the teaching of the church: The direct killing of innocent human beings at any stage of development, including the embryonic and fetal, is homicidal, gravely sinful and always profoundly wrong . . . . What evil could be so grave and widespread as to constitute a “proportionate reason” to support candidates who would preserve and protect the abortion license and even extend it to publicly funded embryo-killing in our nation’s labs? Certainly policies on welfare, national security, the war in Iraq, Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate Archbishop John J. Myers What is a proportionate reason to justify favoring the taking of an innocent, defenseless human life? That’s the question that has to be answered in your conscience. What is the proportionate reason? . . . It is difficult to imagine what that proportionate reason would be Cardinal Burke   #25   Aug 4, '16, 10:59 am FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Beautiful   #26   Aug 4, '16, 12:08 pm jaimeleglise Regular Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Posts: 2,367 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by CarolNoel I agree, and very well said too. Thanks, CarolNoel. I appreciate it.   #27   Aug 4, '16, 2:24 pm mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,620 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della There are certain non-negotiable issues for us Catholics--abortion and euthanasia top the list of these. Economic systems come and go, educational ideas come and go, etc, but what constitutes a living human being doesn't. It's immutable that every person is a human being, and so worthy of the dignity of any other human being no matter his age. This goes for killing off the elderly, disabled, and infirm in the name of "mercy," as well as abortion. All human life is sacrosanct since we are created in the image of God. No one has the right to take innocent human life (see the Catechism: http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com...it=Search&s=SS and http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com...it=Search&s=SS). Certainly not for selfish motivations, or over and above who gets a bigger paycheck, or who can use the restroom: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...l-citizenship/. I agree with goout that far too many Catholics are clueless about their civil responsibilities as Catholics. They need to be educated, and they need to converted from thinking they are free to vote for whomever they please without violating their own Church's laws. They need to be converted from being cultural Catholics to real ones. How culpable they are of sin by voting against Church teaching is between them and their confessors, but they need to be told the truth instead of lulled into thinking it doesn't matter to God who they vote for or why. Good thoughts, Della. The mental gymnastics of some as to what is considered non-negotiable makes me ill. And all the moral equivalencies proffered by too many Catholics is shameful. __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.   #28   Aug 4, '16, 2:36 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorize or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a "grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. [...] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to 'take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’" (no. 73) This is tangentially related to voting, but it does not address voting for people directly. Quote: Christians have a "grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. [...] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it" (no. 74). The definition of Formal Cooperation with Evil requires that the cooperator intend the evil act (abortion, or laws allowing abortion) to occur. Otherwise it is called "Material Cooperation". These citations are irrelevant to the question you purport to be addressing. But I suppose you will continue to post them. Quote: Pope Benedict XVI... Cardinal Burke... Bishop Joseph A. Galante.. Bishop Rene Gracida... Archbishop John J. Myers... An impressive list of citations. However each of these citations is either irrelevant to the question at hand, or a personal opinion expressed by the author.   #29   Aug 4, '16, 2:41 pm CaptFun Regular Member Join Date: May 26, 2010 Posts: 4,998 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Padres1969 Curious how you can consider either of the two major candidates pro life. Particularly given they've both made pro-choice statements in the past. And the candidate I suspect you think is pro life won't even answer a simple question about whether he's had a partner have an abortion or not. In the past ... Now? Quote: Abortion activist Hillary Clinton made her first speech as the Democratic presidential nominee to the nation’s largest abortion corporation, Planned Parenthood. “I have been proud to stand with Planned parenthood for a long time and, as president, I will always have your back,” Hillary said. “We need to protect Planned Parenthood from partisan attacks.” “I will be your partner in the election and for the long haul,” Hillary promised the abortion activists cheering her on. “I want to start by saying something you don’t hear often enough: thank you,” Clinton said. Clinton went on to thank the Planned Parenthood abortion activists for helping women who are victims of sexual assault even though the abortion company has been found to cover up cases of statutory rape, allowing rapists to rape again. She said pro-life Republicans should join her in calling for more taxpayer funding for the abortion giant if they truly cared about women. Clinton also bashed Donald Trump for campaigning on a pro-life platform and said he wanted to take women “to the dark ages” when abortion was illegal. Hillary Clinton defended “playing the woman card.” “If it means supporting Planned Parenthood, deal me in.” Pro-Life Group Backs Donald Trump: “We Applaud His List of Pro-Life Candidates for Supreme Court” http://www.lifenews.com/2016/06/28/p...supreme-court/ Quote: Just one day after a deeply disappointing decision from the Supreme Court regarding a pro-life law in Texas that saved thousands of babies from abortions, a state pro-life group has announced its support for Donald Trump for president. The pro-life organization cited Trump’s list of possible Supreme Court nominees as a reason for urging pro-life voters to support Trump. Susan Smith, the president of the Pro-Life Council of Connecticut, told LifeNews her group “proudly announce its support for Donald Trump for President.” Quote: “This 2016 Presidential election is critical, the stakes have never been higher. Our next president holds the prolife fate of our country, in his or her hands,” Smith said. “We applaud Mr. Trump’s list of pro-life candidates for Supreme Court justices.” Recently, Trump released a well-received list of 11 potential Supreme Court nominees — a list pro-life groups hailed for having strong supporters of the Constitution. He also told a group of more than 1,000 pro-life leaders and activists that he would appoint pro-life judges. This will probably not dispel the "they're both the same ... (so vote for the 'I'm With Her" side and 'make history' ... like in 2008!)" school of thought ... or people who are pretty well set on voting for Hillary. But they are facts. It is true that in the past some "conservative" appointments to the Supreme Court have made some very "liberal" decisions as swing voters ... (while that NEVER seems to be the case amongst the liberal justices ... unless they ALL vote together and make the result non-controversial ... it seems to me .. < a conservative). But "they're just the same so I'm voting for ..." logic, usually announced to try to persuade conservatives to vote for the more liberal (pro-choice) candidate, in my personal experience, has about as much substance as a sieve holds water (to me). IF Trump is STILL a pro-abortion politician ... and lying about it ... shame on him. But Hillary HAS championed abortion for years WITH the power of government behind her. And IS proud of what she is doing (NOW ... double-meaning intended).   #30   Aug 4, '16, 2:53 pm irishpatrick Veteran Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says To me it is simple. How can we ever hope to end legal abortion if we continue to vote for pro-abortion candidates? IMO, being pro-abortion should make a person unqualified for any public office. Try to imagine supporting a pro-slavery candidate--a person who wants to make slavery legal. Aug 4, '16, 3:13 pm xNoOnex Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2013 Posts: 358 Religion: Roman Catholic (No Longer Lapsed) Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Maybe, if organizations like the Knights of Columbus want people to vote for pro-life candidates, they should push for candidates that are actually pro-life rather than anti-abortion. In far to many cases, the same politicians that want to legally ban abortion also want to kill the safety nets that help the less fortunate... And even fewer want to address one of the major reasons people have abortions in the first place; poverty. It also feels a little contrary to Catholic teaching to vote for a candidate like Donald Trump, who gleefully endorses torture; a grave moral evil that cannot be justified, the same as abortion. Sure, you might argue that more abortions will happen, than people will be tortured... But if your “lesser evil” still consists of inexcusable evil, it seems a bit like you're trying to bring moral relativity into the picture. I'm most likely not going to even vote in this election, at least for president. I will vote for the senate/congress seats that are up, but I'm not going to choose a lesser of two evils when both promote inherit evils.   #32   Aug 4, '16, 3:19 pm irishpatrick Veteran Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by xNoOnex Maybe, if organizations like the Knights of Columbus want people to vote for pro-life candidates, they should push for candidates that are actually pro-life rather than anti-abortion. In far to many cases, the same politicians that want to legally ban abortion also want to kill the safety nets that help the less fortunate... And even fewer want to address one of the major reasons people have abortions in the first place; poverty. It also feels a little contrary to Catholic teaching to vote for a candidate like Donald Trump, who gleefully endorses torture; a grave moral evil that cannot be justified, the same as abortion. Sure, you might argue that more abortions will happen, than people will be tortured... But if your “lesser evil” still consists of inexcusable evil, it seems a bit like you're trying to bring moral relativity into the picture. I'm most likely not going to even vote in this election, at least for president. I will vote for the senate/congress seats that are up, but I'm not going to choose a lesser of two evils when both promote inherit evils. It is a complex world and often we have to view all issues and make a choice. The things you raise can be argued from a different pov, yet let's try to look at this a different way: Do dead people need safety nets? The idea is to stop the killing first, then start addressing the many other areas of need. It does us little good to try to build some utopian world if it is only available for those we choose to let live. Poverty is something we MUST help reduce, and safety nets MUST be built to help people--both are valid points, but those points mean nothing to people who are killed.   #33   Aug 4, '16, 3:39 pm Avdima Junior Member Join Date: June 8, 2013 Posts: 259 Religion: In search of... Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by irishpatrick It is a complex world and often we have to view all issues and make a choice. The things you raise can be argued from a different pov, yet let's try to look at this a different way: Do dead people need safety nets? The idea is to stop the killing first, then start addressing the many other areas of need. It does us little good to try to build some utopian world if it is only available for those we choose to let live. Poverty is something we MUST help reduce, and safety nets MUST be built to help people--both are valid points, but those points mean nothing to people who are killed. And babies are killed because because there is no safety net after they are born hence Pro-Lifers always come across they only care if the baby is born not if the baby has a safe and good life after birth. If one is truly pro-life that means pro life from the womb to the tomb so to speak. Anything less is highly hypocritical.   #34   Aug 4, '16, 3:46 pm irishpatrick Veteran Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Avdima And babies are killed because because there is no safety net after they are born hence Pro-Lifers always come across they only care if the baby is born not if the baby has a safe and good life after birth. If one is truly pro-life that means pro life from the womb to the tomb so to speak. Anything less is highly hypocritical. Nice tool box of catch phrases, yet in the end, the innocent unborn are still being slaughtered. I know of no pro-life person who does not care about the babies after they are born. I find pro-life people to be the most compassionate people concerning the entire swath of a person's life. Just because there is an argument over how to best provide the care, does not mean pro-life people do not care. Yet, let's go with your caricature of pro-life people and say (for this discussion only), that pro-life people do not care about people after they are born--does that mean it is morally acceptable to kill innocents? Really? Think about it. Would you allow legal slavery under any condition? Many times we must focus on the highest order issue in order to solve that issue. If we muddle the situation with 20 other issues and arguments, then we will never see the end of the killing. You post sound concerns, yet do they compare to killing innocents. Let's stop the legal killing first, then move on to the next most important issue on the list.   #35   Aug 4, '16, 4:15 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Avdima And babies are killed because because there is no safety net after they are born hence Pro-Lifers always come across they only care if the baby is born not if the baby has a safe and good life after birth. If one is truly pro-life that means pro life from the womb to the tomb so to speak. Anything less is highly hypocritical. What do you mean by safety net? Do you mean welfare? This is a bit old, but there is actually some evidence that reducing welfare spending reduced abortion and indications that more funding for certain programs increased abortion: http://www.hli.org/resources/does-we...duce-abortion/ __________________ Human Life International helps to build the culture of life in more than "100 countries". Please help their mission: https://www.hli.org   #36   Aug 4, '16, 4:35 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by irishpatrick Nice tool box of catch phrases, yet in the end, the innocent unborn are still being slaughtered. I know of no pro-life person who does not care about the babies after they are born. I find pro-life people to be the most compassionate people concerning the entire swath of a person's life. Just because there is an argument over how to best provide the care, does not mean pro-life people do not care. Yet, let's go with your caricature of pro-life people and say (for this discussion only), that pro-life people do not care about people after they are born--does that mean it is morally acceptable to kill innocents? Really? Think about it. Would you allow legal slavery under any condition? Many times we must focus on the highest order issue in order to solve that issue. If we muddle the situation with 20 other issues and arguments, then we will never see the end of the killing. You post sound concerns, yet do they compare to killing innocents. Let's stop the legal killing first, then move on to the next most important issue on the list. When people repeat that tired old DNC thing about how no prolifers care for the "born" I think about women like these: http://www.sistersoflife.org/ut They go out into places like the South Bronx to persuade pregnant women to allow their babies to live. They will help with medical care, job training and placement, even housing if they need it, and at no small risk to themselves. And so, does the Dem party laud and support women like these and encourage others to be like them? Well, not quite. What this administration does do, however, is tell them they'll be fined impossible amounts if they do not provide insurance for their workers and themselves for contraceptives and abortifacients. And does anybody truly believe Hillary Clinton won't add mandatory abortion coverage to that if she's elected, and make good on her promise to make these sisters "change their religion" or else? No one should believe the anti-life mantras. Nor should we take the lies into our own hearts and thereby become complicit in the killing.   #37   Aug 4, '16, 4:47 pm irishpatrick Veteran Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner When people repeat that tired old DNC thing about how no prolifers care for the "born" I think about women like these: http://www.sistersoflife.org/ut They go out into places like the South Bronx to persuade pregnant women to allow their babies to live. They will help with medical care, job training and placement, even housing if they need it, and at no small risk to themselves. And so, does the Dem party laud and support women like these and encourage others to be like them? Well, not quite. What this administration does do, however, is tell them they'll be fined impossible amounts if they do not provide insurance for their workers and themselves for contraceptives and abortifacients. And does anybody truly believe Hillary Clinton won't add mandatory abortion coverage to that if she's elected, and make good on her promise to make these sisters "change their religion" or else? No one should believe the anti-life mantras. Nor should we take the lies into our own hearts and thereby become complicit in the killing. I fully agree.   #38   Aug 4, '16, 4:51 pm DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,072 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner When people repeat that tired old DNC thing about how no prolifers care for the "born" I think about women like these: http://www.sistersoflife.org/ut They go out into places like the South Bronx to persuade pregnant women to allow their babies to live. They will help with medical care, job training and placement, even housing if they need it, and at no small risk to themselves. And so, does the Dem party laud and support women like these and encourage others to be like them? Well, not quite. What this administration does do, however, is tell them they'll be fined impossible amounts if they do not provide insurance for their workers and themselves for contraceptives and abortifacients. And does anybody truly believe Hillary Clinton won't add mandatory abortion coverage to that if she's elected, and make good on her promise to make these sisters "change their religion" or else? No one should believe the anti-life mantras. Nor should we take the lies into our own hearts and thereby become complicit in the killing. __________________ Thank you, St. Jude! Patron of hopeless and impossible cases! http://www.shrineofstjude.org/site/P...e=ssj_homepage Please support the cause for the Beatification and Canonization of Rhoda Wise: http://rhodawise.com/   #39   Aug 4, '16, 5:00 pm estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner When people repeat that tired old DNC thing about how no prolifers care for the "born" I think about women like these: http://www.sistersoflife.org/ut They go out into places like the South Bronx to persuade pregnant women to allow their babies to live. They will help with medical care, job training and placement, even housing if they need it, and at no small risk to themselves. And so, does the Dem party laud and support women like these and encourage others to be like them? Well, not quite. What this administration does do, however, is tell them they'll be fined impossible amounts if they do not provide insurance for their workers and themselves for contraceptives and abortifacients. And does anybody truly believe Hillary Clinton won't add mandatory abortion coverage to that if she's elected, and make good on her promise to make these sisters "change their religion" or else? No one should believe the anti-life mantras. Nor should we take the lies into our own hearts and thereby become complicit in the killing. Have also forced the Catholic Church out of placing children for adoption in many states and just recently forced an order of nuns to quit helping exploited women because they wouldn't refer them for abortions . Democratic Party has also been involved in a concentrated effort to shut down crisis centers all over the country- centers where women receive parenting training, rent assistance, and in the center I volunteered at junior college scholarships   #40   Aug 5, '16, 7:29 am FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says You're down to your last petty argumentative breath if your argument is "pro-lifers don't care for the born, just the unborn." That's a cowardly, hateful statement. Of course they care. Of course they donate time and money to pro life centers that help mothers before and after birth. I swear, statists in the democrat party don't think you care about something unless you compel centralized, iron-fisted government to take swift action.   #41   Aug 5, '16, 7:44 am randomuser Regular Member Join Date: August 27, 2013 Posts: 2,188 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by xNoOnex Maybe, if organizations like the Knights of Columbus want people to vote for pro-life candidates, they should push for candidates that are actually pro-life rather than anti-abortion. Here, here. My conscious will be much clearer voting for the magician on this year's "America's Got Talent" than either of the major presidential candidates.   #42   Aug 5, '16, 8:55 am Lost_Sheep Regular Member Join Date: November 2, 2010 Posts: 5,983 Religion: Confused Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Jimmy Akin presents an interesting argument as to why it might be OK to occasionally vote for a pro-abortion candidate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHwpI1_A8YA __________________ Lost Sheep If you are offended by the opinions I express, you can only imagine the ones I keep to myself.   #43   Aug 5, '16, 9:16 am Brendan Forum Elder Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 16,136 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Avdima And babies are killed because because there is no safety net after they are born hence Pro-Lifers always come across they only care if the baby is born not if the baby has a safe and good life after birth. If one is truly pro-life that means pro life from the womb to the tomb so to speak. Anything less is highly hypocritical. Correct, but does it mean that the supplier of that safety net must be a government organization? The Catholic Church itself is the largest provider of health care, education, food for the poor in the world. If a politician is in favor of reducing the legal impediments that the Church has, is that not the same as promoting a social safety net? __________________ Brendan ________________________________________ _______   #44   Aug 5, '16, 9:17 am mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,620 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by xNoOnex Maybe, if organizations like the Knights of Columbus want people to vote for pro-life candidates, they should push for candidates that are actually pro-life rather than anti-abortion. In far to many cases, the same politicians that want to legally ban abortion also want to kill the safety nets that help the less fortunate... And even fewer want to address one of the major reasons people have abortions in the first place; poverty. It also feels a little contrary to Catholic teaching to vote for a candidate like Donald Trump, who gleefully endorses torture; a grave moral evil that cannot be justified, the same as abortion. Sure, you might argue that more abortions will happen, than people will be tortured... But if your “lesser evil” still consists of inexcusable evil, it seems a bit like you're trying to bring moral relativity into the picture. I'm most likely not going to even vote in this election, at least for president. I will vote for the senate/congress seats that are up, but I'm not going to choose a lesser of two evils when both promote inherit evils. Having worked in the field of medicine most of my working years, I have come to the conclusion that poverty is not the primary reason people have abortions. A huge majority of them use it as a birth control method. Secondly, many do not want to be inconvenienced by a baby in their lives. While the church is opposed to artificial birth control, there are many religions that are not and with that in mind, so many of these abortions could be avoided by people who take control of their lives and don't have unprotected sex. __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.   #45   Aug 5, '16, 9:37 am J_Peterson Regular Member Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,836 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Suudy Why should he? It the usual leftist trap question. If he answers "Yes," then the left will scream "Hypocrite!" Ben Shapiro has a great blurb on this. The point is to try and corner people with proof that they've violated their own rules. But that doesn't prove the rule is wrong, it only proves that somebody failed to live up to the rule. So, the question is entirely irrelevant. The answer doesn't change the nature of the whether abortion is wrong or should be opposed. I think that question is not only irrelevant but offensive. Trump didn't have an abortion because it's physically impossible. Did they want to out a woman for having an abortion just to score some cheap political points? I can't stand the gotcha game. Aug 5, '16, 9:41 am openmind77 Regular Member   Join Date: May 7, 2013 Posts: 1,832 Religion: Hindu Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by J_Peterson I think that question is not only irrelevant but offensive. Trump didn't have an abortion because it's physically impossible. Did they want to out a woman for having an abortion just to score some cheap political points? I can't stand the gotcha game. There is no need to out anyone. All that Trump needs to say is that none of the women that he has gotten pregnant over the years has had an abortion (as far as he knows). If Trump can boast about his sexual affairs in an interview (which he did with Howard Stern) why is it not OK to ask him about this? __________________ "The whole problem with the world is that fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell   #47   Aug 5, '16, 9:44 am FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member   Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 There is no need to out anyone. All that Trump needs to say is that none of the women that he has gotten pregnant over the years has had an abortion (as far as he knows). If Trump can boast about his sexual affairs in an interview (which he did with Howard Stern) why is it not OK to ask him about this? Because this information will only be used against him. The question will not be asked of his opponent, just as no one asks Chelsea about her parents and their "marriage" of convenience. Why should he chum the water he's swimming in?   #48   Aug 5, '16, 9:50 am openmind77 Regular Member   Join Date: May 7, 2013 Posts: 1,832 Religion: Hindu Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by FghtinIrshNvrDi Because this information will only be used against him. The question will not be asked of his opponent, just as no one asks Chelsea about her parents and their "marriage" of convenience. Why should he chum the water he's swimming in? It is relevant because he keeps saying that he is against abortion. His evasion of the question is strange, he could have just said no, never. (If Chelsea kept saying that her parent's marriage was perfect, then maybe you could ask her the question - but she is not running for any office, so why would you?) __________________ "The whole problem with the world is that fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell   #49   Aug 5, '16, 9:53 am J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,836 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by _Abyssinia What do you mean by safety net? Do you mean welfare? This is a bit old, but there is actually some evidence that reducing welfare spending reduced abortion and indications that more funding for certain programs increased abortion: http://www.hli.org/resources/does-we...duce-abortion/ I can't comment on the studies but skimming that link gives me the idea that they believe that women will conceive strictly to get benefits and not conceive when there are no benefits. That's quite an assumption and the article isn't sourced so I don't know how they came to that conclusion.   #50   Aug 5, '16, 10:01 am J_Peterson Regular Member   Join Date: April 7, 2012 Posts: 3,836 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 It is relevant because he keeps saying that he is against abortion. His evasion of the question is strange, he could have just said no, never. (If Chelsea kept saying that her parent's marriage was perfect, then maybe you could ask her the question - but she is not running for any office, so why would you?) What if he said "yes and I regret it now"? That answer would be acceptable to most pro-life people (as long as it's sincere). That wouldn't make him a hypocrite since people can change their minds. I too think that his response was weird (I think the whole Trump phenomenon is off the rails weird though) but I still think the question was out of bounds. It's irrelevant because it doesn't speak to his current feelings on the matter. For the record, I don't believe he's pro-life at all but there must be a better way to get to the truth without bringing in some old girlfriend or sex partner.   #51   Aug 5, '16, 11:59 am FghtinIrshNvrDi Junior Member   Join Date: June 10, 2016 Posts: 172 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 It is relevant because he keeps saying that he is against abortion. His evasion of the question is strange, he could have just said no, never. (If Chelsea kept saying that her parent's marriage was perfect, then maybe you could ask her the question - but she is not running for any office, so why would you?) Are you serious? They've been pestering Trump's kids about how he treats women. No one is on record asking Chelsea. That's my point. The point is, they will not ask Clinton the questions they ask Trump. It would be foolish of him to give a gallon of gasoline to a democrat "journalist" holding matches.   #52   Aug 5, '16, 12:18 pm Suudy Senior Member   Join Date: September 29, 2004 Posts: 6,451 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 It is relevant because he keeps saying that he is against abortion. Why does that make the question relevant? Just because a woman that Trump may have impregnated had an abortion does not matter one iota to whether or not abortion should remain legal. The only way this question matters is if one is trying to trap Trump into appearing to be a hypocrite. But failing to meet the standards is not a reason to jettison the standard. Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 His evasion of the question is strange, he could have just said no, never. Even if the woman did have an abortion, it is irrelevant as to whether abortion should be opposed. It doesn't matter. The question is clearly a trap, so better to ignore it. Quote: Originally Posted by openmind77 (If Chelsea kept saying that her parent's marriage was perfect, then maybe you could ask her the question - but she is not running for any office, so why would you?) I couldn't care less about the relationship of parents of a candidate, even if that candidate continually said the relationship was perfect/great/******/whatever. It's not relevant. __________________ Tiber Swim Team '05 "To love for the sake of being loved is human; to love for the sake of loving is Angelic." -- Alphonse de Lamartine   #53   Aug 5, '16, 2:29 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Suudy Why does that make the question relevant? Just because a woman that Trump may have impregnated had an abortion does not matter one iota to whether or not abortion should remain legal. The only way this question matters is if one is trying to trap Trump into appearing to be a hypocrite. But failing to meet the standards is not a reason to jettison the standard I don't think openmind77 was trying to jettison the standard. But trying to expose Trump as a hypocrite is fair game. Heavens knows there has been plenty of talk here trying to expose Hillary as a hypocrite. If Trump had anything to do with an abortion (I'm not saying he did) it would be very relevant to anyone evaluating the sincerity of his anti-abortion position.   #54   Aug 5, '16, 2:47 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I don't think openmind77 was trying to jettison the standard. But trying to expose Trump as a hypocrite is fair game. Heavens knows there has been plenty of talk here trying to expose Hillary as a hypocrite. If Trump had anything to do with an abortion (I'm not saying he did) it would be very relevant to anyone evaluating the sincerity of his anti-abortion position. Would it? First of all, he wouldn't have had anything to say about it. Second, it could have happened without his knowing it, or without knowing it until after the fact. Third, if he said "no" he could very well have been wrong if one of them did without his knowing about it. Fourth, if he said "yes" then it would have put the spotlight on a number of possible women. If he said "I don't know", he would be criticized for being uncaring. Wonder if any of the media are going to ask Hillary Clinton if she ever had an abortion, used an abortifacient, etc. I'm sure nobody has. If anyone even so much as asked, he/she would be cast into the outer darkness forever. But asking Trump if some other person made a decision he couldn't control? Sure.   #55   Aug 5, '16, 3:35 pm Suudy Senior Member   Join Date: September 29, 2004 Posts: 6,451 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle I don't think openmind77 was trying to jettison the standard. But trying to expose Trump as a hypocrite is fair game. Heavens knows there has been plenty of talk here trying to expose Hillary as a hypocrite. If Trump had anything to do with an abortion (I'm not saying he did) it would be very relevant to anyone evaluating the sincerity of his anti-abortion position. With respect to Trump's sincerity, I agree. But about whether or not some woman that Trump may have impregnated didn't ask that. The question asked if he was ever involved. That's not the same thing as whether he is sincere. __________________ Tiber Swim Team '05 "To love for the sake of being loved is human; to love for the sake of loving is Angelic." -- Alphonse de Lamartine   #56   Aug 5, '16, 5:12 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner Would it? First of all, he wouldn't have had anything to say about it. Second, it could have happened without his knowing it, or without knowing it until after the fact. Third, if he said "no" he could very well have been wrong if one of them did without his knowing about it. Fourth, if he said "yes" then it would have put the spotlight on a number of possible women. If he said "I don't know", he would be criticized for being uncaring. Wonder if any of the media are going to ask Hillary Clinton if she ever had an abortion, used an abortifacient, etc. I'm sure nobody has. If anyone even so much as asked, he/she would be cast into the outer darkness forever. But asking Trump if some other person made a decision he couldn't control? Sure. Trump could simply answer that nothing like that happened at his direction, advice, or control. If he is right, that should be the end of it. Anything that happened outside of his control, advice, approval, or direction, would indeed be irrelevant to Trump's sincerity on the abortion issue. And I'm sure Trump knows how to object if anyone questions further that that.   #57   Aug 5, '16, 5:13 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Suudy With respect to Trump's sincerity, I agree. But about whether or not some woman that Trump may have impregnated didn't ask that. The question asked if he was ever involved. That's not the same thing as whether he is sincere. True. That is why I stipulated that the only fair question would be one that was limited to his advice, control, approval, or direction.   #58   Aug 5, '16, 7:55 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by FghtinIrshNvrDi We're not supposed to be one-issue voters. We're supposed to look at the gravity of each issue, what's going on at the time, and prudentially make a decision. Having said that, there are a million babies killed every year in the USA, and the issue is a grave one. At this point in time, in our geography, IMHO, abortion is a #1 issue. I can't see a scenario where abortion falls down the list of importance beneath economics, general welfare of the people, healthcare systems, etc. I don't see a scenario where you can vote for a pro-abortion candidate unless the scenario is only a selection of pro abortion candidates with no pro life candidate available.evidence that he will actually do what he says. And if the man is elected office and he continues like this for four years. I suspect he could This is my prudential assessment, not canon law. I agree that abortion is a 1. issue. However, should it truly be the only issue? Should we clearly elect someone who clearly doesn't have the judgment, knowledge or frankly temperament to be President? The President of the United States has nuclear codes that could wipe out the entire planet. We need to think very seriously about that... The Republican nominee has no pro life record and is a known liar. We have no true do great damage to our cause. We are suppose to be as wise and serpents and innocent as doves and I think the Lord is showing us time and time again the type of man Trump is. And as for how they are with abortion shows how they are always. Frankly not necessarily I know a lot of pro choice people who are just truly deceived on this issue but who are also anti war. I am probably voting third party... But I think there has to be a little more well he says he's pro life so I am going to ignore his, record, the words out of his mouth (and other awful things he does), as well as his lack of ability to do the job.   #59   Aug 5, '16, 8:11 pm Al Moritz Regular Member   Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 3,024 Religion: Roman Catholic/Freethinker/Skeptic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc I agree that abortion is a 1. issue. However, should it truly be the only issue? Should we clearly elect someone who clearly doesn't have the judgment, knowledge or frankly temperament to be President? The President of the United States has nuclear codes that could wipe out the entire planet. We need to think very seriously about that... The Republican nominee has no pro life record and is a known liar. We have no true do great damage to our cause. We are suppose to be as wise and serpents and innocent as doves and I think the Lord is showing us time and time again the type of man Trump is. Well said. __________________ Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege. Pope Francis   #60   Aug 5, '16, 8:54 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc I agree that abortion is a 1. issue. However, should it truly be the only issue? Should we clearly elect someone who clearly doesn't have the judgment, knowledge or frankly temperament to be President? The President of the United States has nuclear codes that could wipe out the entire planet. We need to think very seriously about that... The Republican nominee has no pro life record and is a known liar. We have no true do great damage to our cause. We are suppose to be as wise and serpents and innocent as doves and I think the Lord is showing us time and time again the type of man Trump is. And as for how they are with abortion shows how they are always. Frankly not necessarily I know a lot of pro choice people who are just truly deceived on this issue but who are also anti war. I am probably voting third party... But I think there has to be a little more well he says he's pro life so I am going to ignore his, record, the words out of his mouth (and other awful things he does), as well as his lack of ability to do the job. What a bunch of dribble. The only time Hillary Clinton has ever changed her mind about abortion is from making it "safe, legal, and rare" to making it now "safe and legal" and in this Election year dropping the "rare". Hillary Clinton hails SCOTUS ruling as win for 'safe, legal' abortion: Signalling an important shift, presumptive Democratic nominee drops 'rare' from description of abortions http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hillary...tion-1.3655360 __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.) Aug 5, '16, 9:06 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer What a bunch of dribble. The only time Hillary Clinton has ever changed her mind about abortion is from making it "safe, legal, and rare" to making it now "safe and legal" and in this Election year dropping the "rare". Hillary Clinton hails SCOTUS ruling as win for 'safe, legal' abortion: Signalling an important shift, presumptive Democratic nominee drops 'rare' from description of abortions http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hillary...tion-1.3655360 I don't think without conversion Hillary will change her mind. But why I disagree with is the concept that she will be less considerate on things like yes nukes. There is the issue too is the words that come out of Trumps mouth. And what I am saying is not dribble. If we are going to just be single issue voters which is what folks are pretty much saying we leave ourselves open to a very bad actor saying he/she is pro life to get our votes while doing some very nasty things. Look at Trumps words and actions. Seriously look at them. I do place priority on life I do in a lot of issues I vote Republican for that issue. I did not like Romney and I did not even fully believe he was pro life but he seemed capable of doing the job. He was not a megalomaniac.   #62   Aug 5, '16, 9:35 pm SuperLuigi Forum Elder   Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Jake Parker Exactly! There are so many issues to be considered, many that have to do with improving lives. I am not saying abortions are acceptable, but we should not focus on government to fix the problem. We need to continue reaching out to those women that choose to visit abortion clinics. Perhaps being legal, it actually makes it easier to find the women that want an abortion so that we can talk/pray with them to not do it. Being illegal, they will be much harder to find, because we wouldn't know where they're going to get the abortion, and wouldn't be able to talk/pray with them. These are not excuses, just trying to think of positive outcomes for our current problems. Should the same kind of thinking be applied to slavery? Slavery still happens in this country. Maybe if it were legal, we could maybe reach out more or something? __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #63   Aug 5, '16, 10:07 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc I don't think without conversion Hillary will change her mind. But why I disagree with is the concept that she will be less considerate on things like yes nukes. There is the issue too is the words that come out of Trumps mouth. And what I am saying is not dribble. If we are going to just be single issue voters which is what folks are pretty much saying we leave ourselves open to a very bad actor saying he/she is pro life to get our votes while doing some very nasty things. Look at Trumps words and actions. Seriously look at them. I do place priority on life I do in a lot of issues I vote Republican for that issue. I did not like Romney and I did not even fully believe he was pro life but he seemed capable of doing the job. He was not a megalomaniac. The only people who are fooling around and want war with Mother Russia and the government of Syria are the Neo Conservatives who drove us headlong into and invaded Iraq based on a canard. They got us into war and massive treble trillion dollar debt. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #64   Aug 5, '16, 10:26 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says The question here is whether cooperating with someone like Trump. Who has frankly been hateful to large groups of people is going to advance our cause. Because that's what Trump has been... Our long term goals. This is one election.   #65   Aug 5, '16, 10:32 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer The only people who are fooling around and want war with Mother Russia and the government of Syria are the Neo Conservatives who drove us headlong into and invaded Iraq based on a canard. They got us into war and massive treble trillion dollar debt. The Donald has shown absolutely no knowledge of foreign policy and isn't exactly proposing getting rid of the debt. What do you think will happen if the US steps down. Do you think Russia and China will act like angels? Now I personally blame the Clintons for a lot of the problems we have right now with Russia. But you know what the current system we have-has kept the world out of a major world war for over 60plus years. It doesn't change the fact that the Donald and his worlds against women, minorities etc. hasn't shown a moral compass. Nor is contemplating about the possibility of nuking the Middle East. We have no idea what a President Donald Trump will actually do when it comes to going into wars. None. Because the man has absolutely no record.   #66   Aug 5, '16, 10:46 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says And is for the US wanting World War III with Russia. The US pretty much let Russia take over Crimea. Yeah they did some sanctions. But they didn't go to war over Crimea. Quote: U.S. officials cannot say publicly that they let Russia take Crimea unopposed to prevent a large-scale invasion of the rest of Ukrainian territory. It didn't quite work: Putin is in Ukraine "in a certain way." But an invasion like the one in Georgia in 2008 did not take place. Nor can Ukrainian officials say openly that the U.S. and Europe, despite continuing to pay lip service to Ukraine's territorial integrity, have de-facto acquiesced in Crimea's annexation. That would be disloyal toward the Western allies, who are propping up the current Kiev government with loans and technical assistance. So guess what official US policy is heck no are we going to war over Crimea. http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articl...nse-on-ukraine   #67   Aug 5, '16, 11:12 pm Al Moritz Regular Member   Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 3,024 Religion: Roman Catholic/Freethinker/Skeptic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc If we are going to just be single issue voters which is what folks are pretty much saying we leave ourselves open to a very bad actor saying he/she is pro life to get our votes while doing some very nasty things. Look at Trumps words and actions. Seriously look at them. Indeed, we are not supposed to be gullible voters who breathlessly and thoughtlessly give in to any candidate who just pays lip service to issues (a game the GOP is extremely good at). USCCB voting guide, paragraph 37 (emphasis added): "37. In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions. These decisions should take into account a candidate's commitments, character, integrity, and ability to influence a given issue. In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience formed by Catholic moral teaching." __________________ Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege. Pope Francis   #68   Aug 6, '16, 5:16 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc The question here is whether cooperating with someone like Trump. Who has frankly been hateful to large groups of people is going to advance our cause. Because that's what Trump has been... Our long term goals. This is one election. As indicated numerous times that he will appoint pro-life judges to the federal courts. Now it may be that the judges your points will not be pro-life enough or will not be pro-life at all but we absolutely know that the judges that Hillary Clinton will be adamantly pro-abortion. We are seeing the usual election-year rationalizations as to why it's okay for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate . I'm very pleased with the Knights of Columbus for clearly annunciated church teaching on this topic .   #69   Aug 6, '16, 5:42 am Al Moritz Regular Member   Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 3,024 Religion: Roman Catholic/Freethinker/Skeptic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob As indicated numerous times that he will appoint pro-life judges to the federal courts. Now it may be that the judges your points will not be pro-life enough or will not be pro-life at all but we absolutely know that the judges that Hillary Clinton will be adamantly pro-abortion. We are seeing the usual election-year rationalizations as to why it's okay for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate . I'm very pleased with the Knights of Columbus for clearly annunciated church teaching on this topic . Some Conservatives Say Trump a Bigger Threat Than SCOTUS Nominations "It's the Supreme Court, stupid," wrote Hugh Hewitt last week in defense of his vote for Donald Trump, despite the Republican presidential nominee not being his first choice. Days earlier, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Trump had all but taunted conservatives on this front: "If you really like Donald Trump, that's great, but if you don't, you have to vote for me anyway. You know why? Supreme Court judges, Supreme Court judges. Have no choice, sorry, sorry, sorry. You have no choice." One seat on the highest court is already vacant after Antonin Scalia's death and has remained empty as Republicans refuse to hold a hearing or a vote on President Obama's nominee, Merrick Garland. Three other justices will be at least 80 during the next president's first term. Even for conservatives who revile Trump, the prospect of losing control of the court for a generation terrifies them. "I know what a very liberal SCOTUS means," Hewitt wrote. "Conservatism is done." Still, some conservative writers are unpersuaded, even after the candidate took the unusual step of releasing a list of his ideal nominees. "It's a Trump commitment, and Trump commitments are notoriously worthless," wrote David Frum [speechwriter for G.W. Bush] at The Atlantic, adding, "If Donald Trump ever gains the power to nominate a justice of the Supreme Court, what he will seek will not be conservatism. It will be pliability on whatever issue is preoccupying Trump at that particular moment." At The National Review, Ian Tuttle similarly dismissed the court as reason for skeptical conservatives to get in line. Even if Hillary Clinton were to appoint liberal justices that threaten conservative ideals, "this damage accumulates slowly, and it can be mitigated. Conservatives often forget that the Supreme Court can only render decisions on cases presented before it. Disciplined conservative legal circles can curtail the Court's power to establish national precedents by refusing to appeal to it." (Many liberal groups have already been employing this tactic with the current Supreme Court.) Moreover, Tuttle writes, "What Trump supporters refuse to do is weigh it against another clear and present danger to our constitutional order: a President Donald J. Trump." *** As David Frum said, "It's a Trump commitment, and Trump commitments are notoriously worthless," Of course, voters desperate to cling on to any hope fall for any lip service of a Republican candidate to pro-life issues. __________________ Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege. Pope Francis   #70   Aug 6, '16, 6:53 am Secret Square Junior Member   Join Date: March 19, 2009 Posts: 455 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Generally, I agree that there is "no excuse" for voting for pro-abortion politicians, particularly aggressively pro-abortion politicians who seek to expand the "right" to abortion to include taxpayer/Medicaid funding, removal of conscience protection for healthcare providers and crisis pregnancy centers, mandatory insurance coverage of abortion, etc. However, I think it's important to understand this injunction in a certain context. First of all, "don't vote for a pro-abort" does NOT necessarily equal "you MUST vote for his or her major party opponent" -- particularly if the major party opponent is manifestly corrupt, incompetent, or untrustworthy. I do not believe one is morally obligated to vote for someone who is clearly unfit for the job simply because they claim to be pro-life, since the qualities that make them unfit for office will do little or nothing to advance the pro-life cause, and may make it harder to elect competent pro-lifers in the future. Voting third party/write in or not voting at all are morally acceptable measures in this situation. Moreover, not all "pro-choice" candidates are the same. There are what I would call "soft" pro-choice candidates who basically just want to preserve the status quo with regard to abortion law. They don't make abortion a signature issue of their campaign, and they are willing to accept measures such as parental notification, the Hyde Amendment, etc. Then there are the "hard" pro-choice candidates who aggressively promote abortion and fight tooth and nail to prevent ANY restrictions upon it. If a "soft" pro-choicer gets elected, they at least don't make things worse, whereas if a "hard" pro-choicer wins, things do get worse. IMO (not judging or condemning anyone else who thinks differently) I would vote for: -- a reasonably competent and trustworthy pro-lifer over any pro-choicer; -- a soft pro-choicer over a hard pro-choicer (the "lesser of two evils" scenario); -- a soft pro-choicer over a blatantly crazy/crooked/lying/incompetent pro-lifer (on the grounds that this probably won't do any harm and leaves open the possibility of a better choice in the future). However, if its a case of hard pro-choicer vs. crazy/incompetent pro-lifer, I'd go third party/write in or not vote at all, and leave the outcome in God's hands.   #71   Aug 6, '16, 8:01 am bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob As indicated numerous times that he will appoint pro-life judges to the federal courts. Now it may be that the judges your points will not be pro-life enough or will not be pro-life at all but we absolutely know that the judges that Hillary Clinton will be adamantly pro-abortion. We are seeing the usual election-year rationalizations as to why it's okay for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate . I'm very pleased with the Knights of Columbus for clearly annunciated church teaching on this topic . We have on Donald's word on this and the his pro choice record as well as the fact that he is a known liar. Church teaching says Catholics are not to be one issue voters. "As Catholics we are not single issue voters. As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support." Look yes the lives of the unborn matter? but what about the lives others? I.e the lives of the undocumented immigrants. Many who came here precisely because of how dangerous things are in Central America-we send them back we could be sending some of them to their death. And this will be direct. Clinton allowing abortion to be legal-is not forcing anyone to have an abortion. The lives of Syrian and Middle Eastern Immigrants. Many whom are Christian. You know the Donald ban and all. And also the lives of those in Middle EAst. The Donald has said he would not rule out using nuclear weapons against ISIS. Said nuclear weapons could millions of innocent people in danger. Would voting the Donald actually get rid of abortion in America. Let's be real no. He is only guaranteed to appoint one JUDGE. And will only be in office four years. Do you think after four years of the Donald's rhetoric. His words against Muslims Women, Minorities. How do you think our country will be especially with demographics changing. If the Trump fans are lucky enough to win election this time. They will sure get creamed (in two years time) And we will have a Democrat Senate. And given our lScalia precedent. Do you think they will confirm anyone Trump puts in. And two years later we could then have a Democrat President. and it is possible that President would be appointing some of the older member's of the court.   #72   Aug 6, '16, 8:38 am Della Forum Elder   Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says In order for us Catholics to vote for Trump, he doesn't have to get rid of abortion, he only has to be opposed to promoting it or pushing the pro-death agenda in government, in our schools, in our courts, and in public life. That's all. We can only choose between one flawed human being or another. Since Clinton is adamantly pro-death, we cannot vote for her no matter any other policies she may support/not support. Who is considered a human being, with all the rights of a human being is the core issue. We already have the blood of millions of innocent children on our hands--do we want to add those of the elderly, the disable, the infirm to that list--it's happening right now, in case anyone is naïve enough to think it isn't. She will do all in her power to push the pro-death agenda to the max, while Trump has been endorsed by pro-life action groups: http://www.lifenews.com/2016/08/04/p...llary-clinton/. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"   #73   Aug 6, '16, 8:50 am bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della In order for us Catholics to vote for Trump, he doesn't have to get rid of abortion, he only has to be opposed to promoting it or pushing the pro-death agenda in government, in our schools, in our courts, and in public life. That's all. We can only choose between one flawed human being or another. Since Clinton is adamantly pro-death, we cannot vote for her no matter any other policies she may support/not support. Who is considered a human being, with all the rights of a human being is the core issue. We already have the blood of millions of innocent children on our hands--do we want to add those of the elderly, the disable, the infirm to that list--it's happening right now, in case anyone is naïve enough to think it isn't. She will do all in her power to push the pro-death agenda to the max, while Trump has been endorsed by pro-life action groups: http://www.lifenews.com/2016/08/04/p...llary-clinton/. Fine. Mr. Planned Parenthood does wonderful thing's won't promote abortion. But he will promote the separation of families, torture, and racism. Do you really think a man who makes fun of the disabled cares about them? Abortion has to be seen in its proper context. In the context of a throw away culture. And the Donald supports plenty of the throw away culture.   #74   Aug 6, '16, 9:01 am Della Forum Elder   Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc Fine. Mr. Planned Parenthood does wonderful thing's won't promote abortion. But he will promote the separation of families, torture, and racism. Do you really think a man who makes fun of the disabled cares about them? Abortion has to be scene in its proper context. In the context of a throw away culture. And the Donald supports plenty of the throw away culture. Absolutely not. Abortion is the prime issue--all others take a very back seat. Why? Because how we view the dignity of human life informs every other decision government makes about the laws it makes. If human beings are disposable, then the government has absolute control over everything in our lives. Hillary would be sure to agree that government, not individuals should be doing exactly that. Trump says a lot of outlandish things and the left wing controlled media makes the most of it. However, he would be very limited in what he could actually do. Hillary too would have limitations, but she's already got most of the federal courts on her side, and she would make one or two appointments to the Supreme Court. She would push the pro-death agenda as much as she could--no holds barred. Is that what you want? Trump once supported PP, but he has seen how bad it is for women and for the country. He isn't perfect by any means, but Hillary is far, far worse. All these other issues are mere smoke screens to fool us into thinking that Hillary is a angel of mercy, but she's not that at all. She's pro-death all the way. Don't be fooled by a lot of pro-left agenda rhetoric. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"   #75   Aug 6, '16, 9:17 am bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della Absolutely not. Abortion is the prime issue--all others take a very back seat. Why? Because how we view the dignity of human life informs every other decision government makes about the laws it makes. If human beings are disposable, then the government has absolute control over everything in our lives. Hillary would be sure to agree that government, not individuals should be doing exactly that. Trump says a lot of outlandish things and the left wing controlled media makes the most of it. However, he would be very limited in what he could actually do. Hillary too would have limitations, but she's already got most of the federal courts on her side, and she would make one or two appointments to the Supreme Court. She would push the pro-death agenda as much as she could--no holds barred. Is that what you want? Trump once supported PP, but he has seen how bad it is for women and for the country. He isn't perfect by any means, but Hillary is far, far worse. All these other issues are mere smoke screens to fool us into thinking that Hillary is a angel of mercy, but she's not that at all. She's pro-death all the way. Don't be fooled by a lot of pro-left agenda rhetoric. First of all it is note the case that a pro life politician will be less willing to go to war. I know some Pro choice people. Who are pro choice but anti war. There are people who are legitimately confused about the abortion issue. But they are very clear on other issues. So that is a false equavaliency that frankly doesn't bare out. At all. If you talk to people. Second if the President of the United States- authorizes torture. Torture will happen. And the Donald has openly talked about this. Donald's language openly shows he does not respect the dignity of the human person. Even if he claims to be pro life. Once again let's take a look again at Donald's own actual words. Not to mention there are very few checks on the President and nuclear weapons. And the Donald has open signaled things that would indicate he doesn't support current US policy on them. The Policy of the United States is we don't use nuclear weapons on non nuclear countries. But the Donald has said he thinks it should be an option with ISIS. So I am sorry this whole because said person claims to be pro life. They are going to be better on other issues. Not necessarily. Especially if they are pro life in name only. And we know this is not the case because Trump's own words show where he really is in the other dignity of human life issues. But he claims to be pro life. So let's ignore discernment. Let's ignore it. And as for Hillary. No I don't want Hillary. The idea of Hillary makes me die inside. I am probably voting third party. "But better someone as President who I can oppose then a false friend whose policies I will be responsible" We can build again for another-for four years from now. We can reject the evil elements that the Republicans are starting to court. And start reaching out to our Pro life brothers on the Democratic side. Muslims are sympathetic to our Pro life cause do you know that ? Part of why they are upset with the United States is our promotion of abortion in their countries. Hispanics a lot of the immigrants that the Republicans are throwing on the way side are pro life. So are a lot of African Americans. But many are concerned about other issues too. I mean okay we are against killing of the unborn. But what about heath care for the living? And what about child care. Many would happily vote for a pro life candidate with a consistent ethic. That sought to limit abortions-and help those mothers too. We could support a party like the American Solidarty party. That is based on the teachings of our Church-all of them. The point is we can choose to not cooperate with evil in this election. Separate ourselves from Trump and his poisoneous message. In order to rebuild for next time. That's an option. I mean your basically saying it's wrong to support a candidate who will be for abortion and promote. But it is A-Okay to support a candidate who supports racism and openly torture. So we can tell the world that Pro life-is abortion only. Everyone else matters nothing. Last edited by bekalc; Aug 6, '16 at 9:28 am.      Aug 6, '16, 10:13 am Della Forum Elder   Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says bekalc, by everything you've written about Trump, I see you have completely accepted the left-wing media's interpretation of his words and action, while ignoring the gross negligence and violations of the constitution by the left. It's not like they say it is. Please don't be influenced by that. Hillary has the media in her pocket--of course they're going to put the worst spin possible on what Trump says and does. And no, even the use of nuclear weapons (no one has used them nor is it really very likely--it's just to let the radical Muslims know we mean business) and upholding our immigration laws (which can be changed) isn't the equivalent of abortion. Abortion has already murdered millions of innocence children--more people than have died in all America's wars put together. It's the greatest and worst evil there is, for the reasons I've explained. Mother Teresa characterized it as that. She saw firsthand the ravages it causes--far worse than any rhetoric about what weapons we might use in the war against terror or who can immigrate where. I'm glad you won't and couldn't vote for Hillary. But, the way our voting system works, a vote for a 3rd party candidate, who hasn't a chance to win, is a vote for Hillary, the pro-death candidate, and against Trump, who, although far from perfect, is by far the lesser of two evils and not as bad as he's touted to be by the media. Hillary is hoping many people will vote for 3rd party candidates because she knows that will win her the White House. We cannot give her the WH by default anymore than we can vote directly for her. Either way is equally bad since the result would be the same. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"   #77   Aug 6, '16, 12:52 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della bekalc, by everything you've written about Trump, I see you have completely accepted the left-wing media's interpretation of his words and action, while ignoring the gross negligence and violations of the constitution by the left. It's not like they say it is. Please don't be influenced by that. Hillary has the media in her pocket--of course they're going to put the worst spin possible on what Trump says and does. And no, even the use of nuclear weapons (no one has used them nor is it really very likely--it's just to let the radical Muslims know we mean business) and upholding our immigration laws (which can be changed) isn't the equivalent of abortion. Abortion has already murdered millions of innocence children--more people than have died in all America's wars put together. It's the greatest and worst evil there is, for the reasons I've explained. Mother Teresa characterized it as that. She saw firsthand the ravages it causes--far worse than any rhetoric about what weapons we might use in the war against terror or who can immigrate where. I'm glad you won't and couldn't vote for Hillary. But, the way our voting system works, a vote for a 3rd party candidate, who hasn't a chance to win, is a vote for Hillary, the pro-death candidate, and against Trump, who, although far from perfect, is by far the lesser of two evils and not as bad as he's touted to be by the media. Hillary is hoping many people will vote for 3rd party candidates because she knows that will win her the White House. We cannot give her the WH by default anymore than we can vote directly for her. Either way is equally bad since the result would be the same. I am not going with the Left's version of Trump's words. I am going with Trump's version. I am going with his own words on Hispanics. His own words on Women. His own mention of banning Muslims from entering the country. I saw him on the debate stage advocate for torture. And then show a complete lack of respect and knowledge of our Constitution by saying he would make the military do it. Add in Trump's own words advocating the killing of terrorists families. The US policy is not to use nuclear weapons on non nuclear states. It is our open policy to say this and by saying we support this policy we are encouraging other states NOT to get nuclear weapons. By openly stating differently. Trump encourages other nations to get nuclear weapons-for their own basic survival. And as for immigration, openly supporting the separation of families is not okay. As Pope Francis says. There are values. How can we say one value matters more than the other? By supporting the Donald. We risk destroying our Christian witness. to the world. For the sake of one election. And I want to emphasize. One Election. Pick one of them Hillary or Trump but to say either one is for your Catholic or Christian values... I am sorry... But we are very perilous if we allow Trump to be called the Christian choice. Yes the Republicans are better on one area. One area. But that doesn't mean they dont' have issues in others areas. And to show how these issues are inner connected. Let's talk about family leave. A young girl who is faced with baby. Who doesn't know if she could really give up a child for adoption. But said young girl may give her child life. IF she can have access to supporting said child. (Due to reasonable child care. My brother is looking at 1,000 dollars a month for child care). If she can have family leave. insurance money to help her keep her job. Or heck some girl who may be willing to care a baby and give it up for adoption. But is concerned about supporting herself losing job during pregnancy. I.e The Repubilcans oh they are pro birth. But paid family leave?-a hallmark in e very other nation in the world. Affordable health care? Nope. So once again. What about promoting policies that actually encourage desparate young girls to keep their babies. Because when we don't. The pro choicers have a point when they say we don't care about women or their children. Now this isn't meant to say a blanket for hey let's just ignore abortion. But rather it is an advocacy for being consistent pro life. And the fact that yes all of our values matter. Not just one....   #78   Aug 6, '16, 2:19 pm Al Moritz Regular Member   Join Date: April 20, 2011 Posts: 3,024 Religion: Roman Catholic/Freethinker/Skeptic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc I am not going with the Left's version of Trump's words. I am going with Trump's version. I am going with his own words on Hispanics. His own words on Women. His own mention of banning Muslims from entering the country. I saw him on the debate stage advocate for torture. And then show a complete lack of respect and knowledge of our Constitution by saying he would make the military do it. Add in Trump's own words advocating the killing of terrorists families. The US policy is not to use nuclear weapons on non nuclear states. It is our open policy to say this and by saying we support this policy we are encouraging other states NOT to get nuclear weapons. By openly stating differently. Trump encourages other nations to get nuclear weapons-for their own basic survival. And as for immigration, openly supporting the separation of families is not okay. As Pope Francis says. There are values. How can we say one value matters more than the other? By supporting the Donald. We risk destroying our Christian witness. to the world. For the sake of one election. And I want to emphasize. One Election. Pick one of them Hillary or Trump but to say either one is for your Catholic or Christian values... I am sorry... But we are very perilous if we allow Trump to be called the Christian choice. Yes the Republicans are better on one area. One area. But that doesn't mean they dont' have issues in others areas. And to show how these issues are inner connected. Let's talk about family leave. A young girl who is faced with baby. Who doesn't know if she could really give up a child for adoption. But said young girl may give her child life. IF she can have access to supporting said child. (Due to reasonable child care. My brother is looking at 1,000 dollars a month for child care). If she can have family leave. insurance money to help her keep her job. Or heck some girl who may be willing to care a baby and give it up for adoption. But is concerned about supporting herself losing job during pregnancy. I.e The Repubilcans oh they are pro birth. But paid family leave?-a hallmark in e very other nation in the world. Affordable health care? Nope. So once again. What about promoting policies that actually encourage desparate young girls to keep their babies. Because when we don't. The pro choicers have a point when they say we don't care about women or their children. Now this isn't meant to say a blanket for hey let's just ignore abortion. But rather it is an advocacy for being consistent pro life. And the fact that yes all of our values matter. Not just one.... Excellent post. __________________ Health is not a consumer good but a universal right, so access to health services cannot be a privilege. Pope Francis   #79   Aug 6, '16, 2:46 pm Della Forum Elder   Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 19,275 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Al Moritz Excellent post. No, it's not excellent. bekalc there is no such thing as a "consistent" pro-life candidate with a chance to win the White House. Jesus told us to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. A lot of Catholic love the gentle as doves part but they seem to dislike being as wise as a serpent. You cannot be serious in thinking your vote for a 3rd party candidate will do anything except assuage sensibilities instead of actually doing something that will slow the onslaught against the innocent unborn, the disabled, the elderly and infirm. Or that you will be insuring we will still regain full freedom of religion in this country by throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate. It just doesn't work that way--it just doesn't. I can see my words aren't making a dent any more than the did the last 2 elections. I can only pray and hope that when Hillary is in office she won't be able to implement all the draconian policies against the very foundations of our faith and freedoms that she is itching to put in place. All I can say, as I sais back 8 years ago is--God help, especially since we are so willfully blind to doing what needs to be done to combat the degradation and dissolving of our faith and culture in this country. I'm unsubscribing from this thread because I wonn't go trying to get people to see what they just don't want to see. __________________ "We must overcome our enemies by gentleness; win them over by forbearance. Let them be punished by their own conscience, not by our wrath. Let us not at once wither the fig-tree, from which a more skillful gardener may yet entice fruit." St. Gregory Nazianzen Tiber Swim Team, Class of '87 "Sanctum erit, facere bonum in caritate"   #80   Aug 6, '16, 3:14 pm bekalc Regular Member   Join Date: June 17, 2005 Posts: 970 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della No, it's not excellent. bekalc there is no such thing as a "consistent" pro-life candidate with a chance to win the White House. Jesus told us to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. A lot of Catholic love the gentle as doves part but they seem to dislike being as wise as a serpent. You cannot be serious in thinking your vote for a 3rd party candidate will do anything except assuage sensibilities instead of actually doing something that will slow the onslaught against the innocent unborn, the disabled, the elderly and infirm. Or that you will be insuring we will still regain full freedom of religion in this country by throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate. It just doesn't work that way--it just doesn't. I can see my words aren't making a dent any more than the did the last 2 elections. I can only pray and hope that when Hillary is in office she won't be able to implement all the draconian policies against the very foundations of our faith and freedoms that she is itching to put in place. All I can say, as I sais back 8 years ago is--God help, especially since we are so willfully blind to doing what needs to be done to combat the degradation and dissolving of our faith and culture in this country. I'm unsubscribing from this thread because I wonn't go trying to get people to see what they just don't want to see. I voted Romney. I voted for McCain. I didn't love them. I did not agree with everything they were about. They were both decent people capable of being President and they didn't express the same language or the same things that Trump did. A candidate who supports a religious test for entrance into this country. Does not support religious freedom. The Donald is either racist or he is openly empowering racism to get elected. He is not qualified for office either. I refuse to support a candidate with all of these morally bad qualities. For one election. Donald may not be openly advocating the moral dedegration of abortion. But he is advocating for other moral degradation. With Hillary we will get the moral degradation of abortion With the Donald the moral dedgration of racism. I refuse to pick between the two. But I am sorry I think the far greater threat is if we Christians are seen as supporting one or the other. Long term threat. If you cannot see Donald's moral problems and how Donald is different from Romney or McCain. I am not sure what to say. I fear for Christianity's long term future if Trump is seen as the Christian party. As Trump makes fun of minorities, the disabled (and openly talks about how to ban a religion) torture! The country may not be there on abortion but they rightly see these things as evil. The folks who are appalled by the Donald and his words. Have ever reason to be and it is frankly to their credit. For us to excuse him in any way. Is wrong. By refusing to be cheap dates and support Trump. We set lines in the sands for Republicans and others. And maybe four year from now we get a better candidate. A real Pro lifer. A principled politician.   #81   Aug 7, '16, 11:25 am Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc I voted Romney. I voted for McCain. I didn't love them. I did not agree with everything they were about. They were both decent people capable of being President and they didn't express the same language or the same things that Trump did. A candidate who supports a religious test for entrance into this country. Does not support religious freedom. The Donald is either racist or he is openly empowering racism to get elected. He is not qualified for office either. I refuse to support a candidate with all of these morally bad qualities. For one election. Donald may not be openly advocating the moral dedegration of abortion. But he is advocating for other moral degradation. With Hillary we will get the moral degradation of abortion With the Donald the moral dedgration of racism. I refuse to pick between the two. But I am sorry I think the far greater threat is if we Christians are seen as supporting one or the other. Long term threat. If you cannot see Donald's moral problems and how Donald is different from Romney or McCain. I am not sure what to say. I fear for Christianity's long term future if Trump is seen as the Christian party. As Trump makes fun of minorities, the disabled (and openly talks about how to ban a religion) torture! The country may not be there on abortion but they rightly see these things as evil. The folks who are appalled by the Donald and his words. Have ever reason to be and it is frankly to their credit. For us to excuse him in any way. Is wrong. By refusing to be cheap dates and support Trump. We set lines in the sands for Republicans and others. And maybe four year from now we get a better candidate. A real Pro lifer. A principled politician. The only problem is only party A or B is going to win the Presidency in this Election. No Third Party candidate is going to win. A lot is at stake politically, including the U.S. Supreme Court, because not only the empty Scalia seat, but three justices are over the age of 75; Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer, who are liberals, and Anthony Kennedy, a liberal conservative. Chances are all three will leave the bench one way or another over the course of the next presidency, especially if it runs two terms. If that is the case, the majority on the court — whether conservative or liberal — would be locked in for a couple of generations, past the middle of the century, as justices serve for life. You can't live in Neverland hoping it all magically goes away in four years. Narrow the political issues down to the Catholic Non-Negotiables. Remember, the Right To Life is a basic Fundamental Right. Quote: Trump unveils list of 11 potential Supreme Court picks "I am going to give a list of either five or 10 judges that I will pick, 100 percent pick, that I will put in for nomination. Because some of the people that are against me say: `We don't know if he's going to pick the right judge. Supposing he picks a liberal judge or supposing he picks a pro-choice judge,"' Trump said at an event in Palm Beach, Florida . . . “Donald Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees are a woman’s worst nightmare," Ilyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America said in a statement. "His vision appears to be turning the court into an ideological instrument instead of an arbiter of the bedrock values of our country -justice, freedom, and equality" . . . The Susan B. Anthony List, a pro-life non-profit, called Trump's list an "exceptionally strong list of jurists with immense respect for our founding documents." http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...-justices.html __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #82   Aug 7, '16, 12:49 pm randomuser Regular Member   Join Date: August 27, 2013 Posts: 2,188 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer Narrow the political issues down to the Catholic Non-Negotiables. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy - WHO WAS APPOINTED BY REAGAN - wrote the majority opinion on Obergfell, the decision that legalized same-sex "marriage." We know that TRUMP IS NOT PRO-LIFE Therefore, I fail to see what possible obligation any Catholic would have voting for the guy when the most morally prudent option would be to sit this election out.   #83   Aug 7, '16, 12:53 pm randomuser Regular Member   Join Date: August 27, 2013 Posts: 2,188 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc Donald may not be openly advocating the moral dedegration of abortion. But he is advocating for other moral degradation. Trump thinks Planned Parenthood does "wonderful" work for women -- "except for when it comes to abortion." He went on national television and praised the moral degradation promulgated by PP by qualifying it with the disclaimer "except for when it comes to abortion." Well, I'm pro-life -- EXCEPT FOR WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP   #84   Aug 7, '16, 1:05 pm EIF5A Regular Member   Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 2,352 Religion: Catholic (former Protestant) Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Clinton is out of the question. It is reasonable to foresee what she would advocate for: abortion is a given, euthanasia perhaps, continual eroding of religious freedom and conscience, ongoing onslaught with the propagation of "gay rights" and fraying of the stable family, embryonic stem cell research, fetal tissue research. Currently, people are about to make animal human hybrids by mixing human stem cells and animal cells in experimental setting. This will eventually lead to the mixing of even human *embryonic* stem cells with animal cells. A political party with no regards to the sacredness and sanctity of human life would have no qualms about this. I don't like Trump. But Hilary must NOT be president and must NOT be allowed to appoint justices. We can't bury our heads in the sand and feign ignorance when we can reasonably foresee the potential for even greater destruction. __________________ "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph."   #85   Aug 7, '16, 1:08 pm Mark121359 Regular Member   Join Date: August 30, 2012 Posts: 2,352 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says There is something very disturbing about the Democrat Party of today. It appears that many of them "covet" abortion. Like clockwork, every four years Planned Parenthood's President speaks at the Dem convention....and 2016 was no different. They (dems) seem to be obsessed with abortion, and they are not willing to part with one iota of it through any kind of legislation restricting it. Does anyone here remember the Iowa dems praying for abortion a few years back? Here's a link. And here's an excerpt; Quote: We give thanks, O Lord, for the doctors, both current and future, who provide quality abortion care, and pray that they may be kept safe. "We pray for the 45 million American women who have had safe, legal abortions. May they stand tall and refuse shame. We pray for elected officials, that they may always support a woman’s right to make her own medical decisions. Today, we pray for better access to all forms of birth control. We pray that women know the power of our own stories. May we find our voices and tell our truths....." These are just a few of the reasons off the top of my head that would never allow me to vote for any one of them. Hell would freeze over first. Why so many Catholics gloss over this obvious obsession over abortion by the D.P. and continue to vote for them is a real head scratcher. I believe Della put it perfectly right here; Quote: Originally Posted by Della There are certain non-negotiable issues for us Catholics--abortion and euthanasia top the list of these. Economic systems come and go, educational ideas come and go, etc, but what constitutes a living human being doesn't. It's immutable that every person is a human being, and so worthy of the dignity of any other human being no matter his age. This goes for killing off the elderly, disabled, and infirm in the name of "mercy," as well as abortion. All human life is sacrosanct since we are created in the image of God. No one has the right to take innocent human life. Peace, Mark __________________ “Ad Jesum per Mariam" Luke 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.   #86   Aug 7, '16, 1:20 pm randomuser Regular Member   Join Date: August 27, 2013 Posts: 2,188 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Mark121359 There is something very disturbing about the Democrat Party of today. There is something very disturbing about a supposedly "pro-life" candidate who has gone on record - repeatedly - in praise of Planned Parenthood's 'wonderful' work for women, "except for when it comes to abortion." It's disingenuous to paint DP as obsessed with abortion when a certain other candidate is also a fan of theirs. Why's it ok for *him* to praise PP?   #87   Aug 7, '16, 1:30 pm EIF5A Regular Member   Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 2,352 Religion: Catholic (former Protestant) Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by randomuser There is something very disturbing about a supposedly "pro-life" candidate who has gone on record - repeatedly - in praise of Planned Parenthood's 'wonderful' work for women, "except for when it comes to abortion." It's disingenuous to paint DP as obsessed with abortion when a certain other candidate is also a fan of theirs. Why's it ok for *him* to praise PP? Because someone can do both good and evil? You can praise the good and condemn the evil. But what does PP do that local health centers cannot? Why do they need $500 million? __________________ "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph."   #88   Aug 7, '16, 2:33 pm Dwyer Regular Member   Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by randomuser There is something very disturbing about a supposedly "pro-life" candidate who has gone on record - repeatedly - in praise of Planned Parenthood's 'wonderful' work for women, "except for when it comes to abortion." It's disingenuous to paint DP as obsessed with abortion when a certain other candidate is also a fan of theirs. Why's it ok for *him* to praise PP? Mitt Romney was Pro-Abortion before he ran for President as was Ronald Reagan in his early political career as CA Governor and no one from the Media made a big hullabaloo about that. Hillary Clinton was against Gay Marriage in Election 2008 and now she's for it and no one from the Media is making a big hullabaloo about that. People can change their minds with regard to moral and political issues; it happens all the time. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #89   Aug 7, '16, 2:38 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by randomuser Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy - WHO WAS APPOINTED BY REAGAN - wrote the majority opinion on Obergfell, the decision that legalized same-sex "marriage." We know that TRUMP IS NOT PRO-LIFE Therefore, I fail to see what possible obligation any Catholic would have voting for the guy when the most morally prudent option would be to sit this election out. No need to shout. Kennedy is a renegade Catholic who has gone Libertarian in just about every way. One thing he did NOT endorse, however, was partial birth abortion. He voted in favor of state bans in Carhart vs. Gonzales. Guess partial birth abortion was too much even for him. But not for the Democrats on the Court, every single one of them voted against any kind of ban of partial birth abortion.   #90   Aug 7, '16, 2:47 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder   Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,712 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by bekalc The Donald is either racist or he is openly empowering racism to get elected. . Neither one. A temporary ban on Muslim immigrants until we know we can vet them is just being smart. If huge percentages of Muslims, including those now in this country support violent jihad and Al Quaeda, is there some persuasive reason why we should allow even more to come in if, as at present, we have no way to know which of them are terrorists? http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/...ion-polls.aspx This is not some parlor game of "who has the best manners". This is your neighbor's life, and one's political correctness does not entitle him to throw it away. Aug 7, '16, 2:53 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,273 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Mark121359 There is something very disturbing about the Democrat Party of today. It appears that many of them "covet" abortion. Like clockwork, every four years Planned Parenthood's President speaks at the Dem convention....and 2016 was no different. They (dems) seem to be obsessed with abortion, and they are not willing to part with one iota of it through any kind of legislation restricting it. Does anyone here remember the Iowa dems praying for abortion a few years back? Here's a link. And here's an excerpt; These are just a few of the reasons off the top of my head that would never allow me to vote for any one of them. Hell would freeze over first. Why so many Catholics gloss over this obvious obsession over abortion by the D.P. and continue to vote for them is a real head scratcher. I believe Della put it perfectly right here; Peace, Mark It's true. The Democratic Party has become obsessed with abortion. Abortion is the one 'right' they hold most dear. They have effectively become the party of abortion. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens have inured themselves to the idea that killing a million unborn children every year has to be accepted as an unfortunate necessity. When the conscience becomes deadened, horrors follow.   #92   Aug 7, '16, 6:47 pm ProVobis Forum Elder   Join Date: January 26, 2008 Posts: 43,213 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 CCC 2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged. The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community. 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49 When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50 If this is true, then the Libertarian Party Platform is the optimal platform.   #93   Aug 7, '16, 7:07 pm EIF5A Regular Member   Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 2,352 Religion: Catholic (former Protestant) Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by ProVobis If this is true, then the Libertarian Party Platform is the optimal platform. Aren't they pro gay marriage and abortion? (I just perused the Libertarian Party candidate's website.) __________________ "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph."   #94   Aug 7, '16, 7:10 pm LeafByNiggle Veteran Member   Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 10,591 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by ProVobis If this is true, then the Libertarian Party Platform is the optimal platform. EIF5A is right. CCC 2242 is definitely libertarian. But CCC 2237, which you also cited, it not in keeping with the libertarian platform when "the human person" is taken to include a fetus. A libertarian would see this implication of 2237 as government interfering with the liberty of people to decide if a fetus is a human person or not. You can confirm this by just going to the official libertarian party website and reading their platform. They state: Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. This is in direct conflict with the Church's intent in CCC 2237, and other Church documents as well.   #95   Aug 7, '16, 7:12 pm ProVobis Forum Elder   Join Date: January 26, 2008 Posts: 43,213 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Della You cannot be serious in thinking your vote for a 3rd party candidate will do anything except assuage sensibilities instead of actually doing something that will slow the onslaught against the innocent unborn, the disabled, the elderly and infirm. Or that you will be insuring we will still regain full freedom of religion in this country by throwing your vote away on a 3rd party candidate. It just doesn't work that way--it just doesn't. In the short run, you are right. But in the long run, if 3rd party candidates can keep showing advances, then perhaps one day they will have a viable chance at getting some electoral votes given the encouragement. Remember as one pro-life candidate has said, "Vote your conscience." The lesser of two evils is still evil. And the current status quo is still evil, why would a true pro-lifer be happy with that?   #96   Aug 8, '16, 7:11 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by Secret Square However, if its a case of hard pro-choicer vs. crazy/incompetent pro-lifer, I'd go third party/write in or not vote at all, and leave the outcome in God's hands. Well HC is certainly a hard pro-abortion candidate. She (and the Democrat party) are blatantly and officially in favor of repealing the Hyde amendment.   #97   Aug 8, '16, 7:17 am zz912 Senior Member   Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by JimG It's true. The Democratic Party has become obsessed with abortion. Abortion is the one 'right' they hold most dear. They have effectively become the party of abortion. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens have inured themselves to the idea that killing a million unborn children every year has to be accepted as an unfortunate necessity. When the conscience becomes deadened, horrors follow. Abortion is the sacrament of the govt-as-god worship of the modern Democrat party. Quote: Originally Posted by ProVobis If this is true, then the Libertarian Party Platform is the optimal platform. Sadly, no. The libertarians can't recognize the reality of the humanity of the unborn person. They try this silly game of trying to remain on the fence about it.   #98   Aug 8, '16, 8:23 am mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,620 Religion: Catholic Re: Voting for pro-abortion politicians? There’s no excuse, head Knight of Columbus says Quote: Originally Posted by ProVobis In the short run, you are right. But in the long run, if 3rd party candidates can keep showing advances, then perhaps one day they will have a viable chance at getting some electoral votes given the encouragement. Remember as one pro-life candidate has said, "Vote your conscience." The lesser of two evils is still evil. And the current status quo is still evil, why would a true pro-lifer be happy with that? When has a political party risen in popularity by running candidates for the highest office in the land? They have no base. Better they should start by running in local elections and gain support that way. All a third party vote does is assuage the pique of the voter. Look when it got the GOP! __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.