Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law"; AND Re: Sanders Thread

Apr 10, '16, 11:03 am

hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic

Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politi...cid=spartandhp __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.

#2   Apr 10, '16, 1:22 pm

Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" John Kasich should take a stronger stance on the Culture Wars. He would gain more votes that way. Last edited by Joseph3; Apr 10, '16 at 1:27 pm. Reason: I capitalized "Culture Wars".

#3   Apr 10, '16, 1:29 pm

St Francis Forum Elder Join Date: August 11, 2004 Posts: 16,492 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" The fact that people--pols, journalists--continually "misspeak" about the law is contributing hugely to the "controversy." The law requires that people use the facilities according to the sex listed on their birth certificates. However, the birth certificate can be/usually is changed by transgender people as they go through the transition, so that their IDs will match their appearance. So it is not the "birth gender" which matters, but the "birth certificate gender" which counts. I guess including that word would render the whole issue so reasonable that it wouldn't sell any papers, so they leave it out and have lovely profitable controversy. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948

#4   Apr 10, '16, 1:32 pm

Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Hindsight is 20/20.

#5   Apr 10, '16, 1:57 pm

ucfengr Regular Member Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,105 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that the dominant civil rights issue of 2016 would be the right of men to use women's bathrooms?

#6   Apr 10, '16, 2:06 pm

Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that the dominant civil rights issue of 2016 would be the right of men to use women's bathrooms? The LGBT activists envisioned their issues as the new Civil Rights Movement.

#7   Apr 10, '16, 2:38 pm

graciew Regular Member Join Date: January 29, 2010 Posts: 3,365 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" I refuse to go.to the bathroom carrying a birth certificate . How does one expect to find it in a.woman s purse when one is in a hurry! Will there be a "/birth certificate scanner " or what? One of these days we have to organize " a soon to be and senior ladies" protest....

#8   Apr 10, '16, 2:46 pm

Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" I heard him say this today. Does this mean he will never be the Republican nominee? I know he has already said he would make the worst VP. So I can't imagine the party would nominate and vote for someone for VP who has made such a claim about himself. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)

#9   Apr 10, '16, 2:55 pm

Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 John Kasich should take a stronger stance on the Culture Wars. He would gain more votes that way. You mean in a Republican primary, right? I'm not as sure stronger stances on the culture wars as you call them, help as much in a general. But then maybe since he knows he can not win the nomination the usual way, he is saying this to appeal to the party bosses by demonstrating that he is the only one of the remaining 3 to best take on Hillary Clinton. Oh wait a second. That is what he has already been doing. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)

#10   Apr 10, '16, 2:57 pm

Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by graciew I refuse to go.to the bathroom carrying a birth certificate . How does one expect to find it in a.woman s purse when one is in a hurry! Will there be a "/birth certificate scanner " or what? One of these days we have to organize " a soon to be and senior ladies" protest.... And I have enough in my pockets as it is. Keys, wallet, cell phone. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)

#11   Apr 10, '16, 3:27 pm

graciew Regular Member Join Date: January 29, 2010 Posts: 3,365 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe And I have enough in my pockets as it is. Keys, wallet, cell phone. Hahahahahahahahahahahah

#12   Apr 10, '16, 3:37 pm

Peter J Forum Elder Join Date: April 7, 2008 Posts: 17,590 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 He would gain more votes that way. If that was his reason for doing it, then I am not sure I would want to vote for him.

#13   Apr 10, '16, 3:46 pm

JimG Forum Elder Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,250 Religion: Catholic

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that the dominant civil rights issue of 2016 would be the right of men to use women's bathrooms? Isn't it in the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment that men are guaranteed the right to use women's restrooms and women are guaranteed the right to use men's restrooms? Never mind, I don't even want to know.

#14   Apr 10, '16, 4:12 pm

Ojo Feliz Regular Member Join Date: April 4, 2016 Posts: 719

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by St Francis The fact that people--pols, journalists--continually "misspeak" about the law is contributing hugely to the "controversy." The law requires that people use the facilities according to the sex listed on their birth certificates. So North Carolina now requires people to carry their birth certificate when they use a public restroom? I think you make a good point that transgender people, in most states, are able to get new birth certificates after they have completed surgery. However, not all states do this. And what about the persons who are still in the process of crossing over? Aren't transgender people expected to live a year or two in their chosen gender before they can receive surgery?

#15   Apr 10, '16, 4:26 pm

Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822

Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Ojo Feliz So North Carolina now requires people to carry their birth certificate when they use a public restroom? I think you make a good point that transgender people, in most states, are able to get new birth certificates after they have completed surgery. However, not all states do this. And what about the persons who are still in the process of crossing over? Aren't transgender people expected to live a year or two in their chosen gender before they can receive surgery? Will North Carolina accept the birth certificate of Hawaii or does it have to be the long form? Frankly, all this is silly. If Governor Kasich is saying he won't support this because it is a colossal waste of time, then that is a compelling reason to vote for him. He is not as socially conservative as some here might like though and did fail to support the 'heartbeat bill' in Ohio that would have made many (most?) abortions illegal. He also made a big point of going to a gay marriage in an early Republican debate. Apr 10, '16, 4:34 pm pnewton Forum Elder Join Date: June 1, 2004 Posts: 34,025 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" So he doesn't believe in an overreaching government that meddles in the affairs of private businesses. That is kind of Republican, or is outside of North Carollina. __________________ "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in." - Jesus Nooo!! I didn't mean it!   #17   Apr 10, '16, 5:01 pm Moneyball Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2015 Posts: 183 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by pnewton So he doesn't believe in an overreaching government that meddles in the affairs of private businesses. That is kind of Republican, or is outside of North Carollina. The law as I understand it does not effect private businesses. Here in Ontario transgenders are allowed to use whichever bathroom/changeroom they wish... there was a case at a YMCA where a transgendered woman (biological man) was caught staring at a woman while she was taking a shower... he approached her with an erected penis and asked her "do you come her often?" The woman complained but was told that the man had every right to be in that changeroom. I wonder what Kasich would say about that.   #18   Apr 10, '16, 5:10 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Moneyball The law as I understand it does not effect private businesses. Here in Ontario transgenders are allowed to use whichever bathroom/changeroom they wish... there was a case at a YMCA where a transgendered woman (biological man) was caught staring at a woman while she was taking a shower... he approached her with an erected penis and asked her "do you come her often?" The woman complained but was told that the man had every right to be in that changeroom. I wonder what Kasich would say about that. Who knows what Kasich would say to that incident? How do you feel about gay men sharing the same bathroom as straight men? (Or gay women sharing the same bathroom as straight women?) That used to be a major issue, but no longer is.   #19   Apr 10, '16, 5:23 pm josh987654321 Regular Member Join Date: March 14, 2013 Posts: 5,262 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by hazcompat http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politi...cid=spartandhp I think that's fair enough. Girl/Boy, Man/Woman isn't open to interpretation, if they have the stuff downstairs, well, they should know what bathroom they are expected to use regardless of how they identify/see themselves I think. The trouble with this whole thing I believe, is how open to interpretation it is and obviously corruption and abuse, because if a guy said he was a woman and wanted to use the girls bathrooms, common sense would say no. On the other hand, someone like Bruce Jenner, who now calls himself Caitlyn Jenner and has physically harmed himself with sex reassignment surgery probably shouldn't be forced to use men's bathrooms. Anyway, just some of my thoughts. I hope this has helped Thank you for reading Josh __________________ Jesus to St Faustina You please Me most when you meditate on My Sorrowful Passion. (Diary, 1512) The greatest misery does not stop Me from uniting Myself to a soul, but where there is pride, I am not there. (Diary, 1563) We resemble God most when we forgive our neighbors. (Diary, 1148)   #20   Apr 10, '16, 5:29 pm Peter J Forum Elder Join Date: April 7, 2008 Posts: 17,590 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Moneyball The law as I understand it does not effect private businesses. Here in Ontario transgenders are allowed to use whichever bathroom/changeroom they wish... there was a case at a YMCA where a transgendered woman (biological man) was caught staring at a woman while she was taking a shower... he approached her with an erected penis and asked her "do you come her often?" The woman complained but was told that the man had every right to be in that changeroom. I wonder what Kasich would say about that. Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Who knows what Kasich would say to that incident? I don't, but I can definitely imagine the media asking him.   #21   Apr 10, '16, 5:45 pm JimG Forum Elder Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,250 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Moneyball The law as I understand it does not effect private businesses. Here in Ontario transgenders are allowed to use whichever bathroom/changeroom they wish... there was a case at a YMCA where a transgendered woman (biological man) was caught staring at a woman while she was taking a shower... he approached her with an erected penis and asked her "do you come her often?" The woman complained but was told that the man had every right to be in that changeroom. I wonder what Kasich would say about that. Indeed. And what would all the corporate opponents of the bil say about it? Is it okay in a Disney restroom for such an incident to occur?   #22   Apr 10, '16, 6:05 pm Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe You mean in a Republican primary, right? I'm not as sure stronger stances on the culture wars as you call them, help as much in a general. But then maybe since he knows he can not win the nomination the usual way, he is saying this to appeal to the party bosses by demonstrating that he is the only one of the remaining 3 to best take on Hillary Clinton. Oh wait a second. That is what he has already been doing. I mean that he will get more votes from Republicans.   #23   Apr 10, '16, 6:13 pm hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" My wife does not permit me to use a restroom with women and vice-a- versa. I will not have my granddaughters in a restroom that adult males are permitted to use. Sorry if that offends you. Peace __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.   #24   Apr 10, '16, 6:17 pm JimG Forum Elder Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,250 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Maybe it's just an extension of male privilege.   #25   Apr 10, '16, 6:32 pm hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" When the people of a state speak, and corporations threaten the will of the people, the people should boycott the corporations. To capitulate virtue to economic threats is wrong. Then again I'm poor and long time used to it. If I were a politician it might effect my chances of re-election. Then again corporations are people too. Peace __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.   #26   Apr 10, '16, 6:34 pm Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by hazcompat When the people of a state speak, and corporations threaten the will of the people, the people should boycott the corporations. To capitulate virtue to economic threats is wrong. Then again I'm poor and long time used to it. If I were a politician it might effect my chances of re-election. Then again corporations are people too. Peace I agree with you. We should not let liberal corporations bully us into submission.   #27   Apr 10, '16, 6:36 pm randomuser Regular Member Join Date: August 27, 2013 Posts: 2,148 Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 John Kasich should take a stronger stance on the Culture Wars. He would gain more votes that way. Actually, Kasich isn't the one who has praised the "wonderful" work Planned Parenthood does for women -- except for when it comes to abortion -- so, I don't think he's the one who should be taking a stronger stance in the so-called "culture wars." God bless Kasich for being the only GOP candidate with a proven track record defending the unborn.   #28   Apr 10, '16, 6:41 pm Joseph3 Banned Join Date: March 17, 2016 Posts: 2,137 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by randomuser Actually, Kasich isn't the one who has praised the "wonderful" work Planned Parenthood does for women -- except for when it comes to abortion -- so, I don't think he's the one who should be taking a stronger stance in the so-called "culture wars." God bless Kasich for being the only GOP candidate with a proven track record defending the unborn. How about Ted Cruz?   #29   Apr 10, '16, 6:47 pm hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" The Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen... The world may charge the Church with intolerance, and the world is right. The Church is intolerant; intolerant about Truth, intolerant about principles, intolerant about Divinity, just as Our Blessed Lord was intolerant about His Divinity. The other religions may change their principles, and they do change them, because their principles are man-made. The Church cannot change, because her principles are God-made. Religion is not a sum of beliefs that we would like, but the sum of beliefs God has given. The world may disagree with the Church, but the world knows very definitely with what it is disagreeing. In the future as in the past, the Church will be intolerant about the sanctity of marriage, for what God has joined together no man shall put asunder; she will be intolerant about her creed, and be ready to die for it, for she fears not those who kill the body, but rather those who have the power to cast body and soul into hell. She will be intolerant about her infallibility, for “Lo,” says Christ, “I am with you all the days even unto the end of the world.” And while she is intolerant even to blood, in adhering to the truths given her by her Divine Founder, she will be tolerant to those who say she is intolerant, for the same Divine Founder has taught her to say: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” There are only two positions to take concerning truth, and both of them had their hearing centuries ago in the court-room of Solomon where two women claimed a babe. A babe is like truth; it is one; it is whole; it is organic and it cannot be divided. The real mother of ‘the babe would accept no compromise. She was intolerant about her claim. She must have the whole babe, or nothing-the intolerance of Motherhood. But the false mother was tolerant. She was willing to compromise. She was willing to divide the babe-and the babe would have met its death through broadmindedness. Taken from the book “Moods and Truths” (Published in 1932) Peace __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.   #30   Apr 10, '16, 6:51 pm hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" I am an ex-Kasich fan. Peace __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.  Apr 10, '16, 6:53 pm SuperLuigi Forum Master Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,514 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe I heard him say this today. Does this mean he will never be the Republican nominee? I know he has already said he would make the worst VP. So I can't imagine the party would nominate and vote for someone for VP who has made such a claim about himself. He's running for president. Of course he's going to brush off being second. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #32   Apr 10, '16, 7:17 pm josh987654321 Regular Member Join Date: March 14, 2013 Posts: 5,262 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by hazcompat The Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen... The world may charge the Church with intolerance, and the world is right. The Church is intolerant; intolerant about Truth, intolerant about principles, intolerant about Divinity, just as Our Blessed Lord was intolerant about His Divinity. The other religions may change their principles, and they do change them, because their principles are man-made. The Church cannot change, because her principles are God-made. Religion is not a sum of beliefs that we would like, but the sum of beliefs God has given. The world may disagree with the Church, but the world knows very definitely with what it is disagreeing. In the future as in the past, the Church will be intolerant about the sanctity of marriage, for what God has joined together no man shall put asunder; she will be intolerant about her creed, and be ready to die for it, for she fears not those who kill the body, but rather those who have the power to cast body and soul into hell. She will be intolerant about her infallibility, for “Lo,” says Christ, “I am with you all the days even unto the end of the world.” And while she is intolerant even to blood, in adhering to the truths given her by her Divine Founder, she will be tolerant to those who say she is intolerant, for the same Divine Founder has taught her to say: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” There are only two positions to take concerning truth, and both of them had their hearing centuries ago in the court-room of Solomon where two women claimed a babe. A babe is like truth; it is one; it is whole; it is organic and it cannot be divided. The real mother of ‘the babe would accept no compromise. She was intolerant about her claim. She must have the whole babe, or nothing-the intolerance of Motherhood. But the false mother was tolerant. She was willing to compromise. She was willing to divide the babe-and the babe would have met its death through broadmindedness. Taken from the book “Moods and Truths” (Published in 1932) Peace I have never read that before, very much enjoyed it, thank you for sharing it. God Bless Thank you for reading Josh __________________ Jesus to St Faustina You please Me most when you meditate on My Sorrowful Passion. (Diary, 1512) The greatest misery does not stop Me from uniting Myself to a soul, but where there is pride, I am not there. (Diary, 1563) We resemble God most when we forgive our neighbors. (Diary, 1148)   #33   Apr 10, '16, 7:25 pm hazcompat Regular Member Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 3,964 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Pope saint John Paul II Fides Et Ratio 2. The Church is no stranger to this journey of discovery, nor could she ever be. From the moment when, through the Paschal Mystery, she received the gift of the ultimate truth about human life, the Church has made her pilgrim way along the paths of the world to proclaim that Jesus Christ is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6). It is her duty to serve humanity in different ways, but one way in particular imposes a responsibility of a quite special kind: the diakonia of the truth.1 This mission on the one hand makes the believing community a partner in humanity's shared struggle to arrive at truth; 2 and on the other hand it obliges the believing community to proclaim the certitudes arrived at, albeit with a sense that every truth attained is but a step towards that fullness of truth which will appear with the final Revelation of God: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully” (1 Cor 13:12). Peace __________________ Jesus Christ Is Our Father's Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.   #34   Apr 10, '16, 8:20 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Will North Carolina accept the birth certificate of Hawaii or does it have to be the long form? That was one of the funniest things I've read on CAF today. I don't know. Just cracked me up. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #35   Apr 11, '16, 3:23 am JonNC Forum Elder Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 22,961 Religion: Life-long Lutheran, now Anglican Province of America Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by pnewton So he doesn't believe in an overreaching government that meddles in the affairs of private businesses. That is kind of Republican, or is outside of North Carollina. In fact, it was the Charlotte ordinance that meddled in the affairs of private businesses. HB2 ended that. Jon   #36   Apr 11, '16, 4:05 am JonNC Forum Elder Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 22,961 Religion: Life-long Lutheran, now Anglican Province of America Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by graciew I refuse to go.to the bathroom carrying a birth certificate . How does one expect to find it in a.woman s purse when one is in a hurry! Will there be a "/birth certificate scanner " or what? One of these days we have to organize " a soon to be and senior ladies" protest.... I've read through HB2, and have seen no requirement for producing a birth certificate. Do you have documentation that this is the case? OTOH, under the Charlotte ordinance, how was a business to know if the person standing before them is transgender? Were they not required to sign a form? Jon   #37   Apr 11, '16, 4:18 am Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Ojo Feliz So North Carolina now requires people to carry their birth certificate when they use a public restroom? I think you make a good point that transgender people, in most states, are able to get new birth certificates after they have completed surgery. However, not all states do this. And what about the persons who are still in the process of crossing over? Aren't transgender people expected to live a year or two in their chosen gender before they can receive surgery? I guess they are going to have to hold it until the paperwork comes through.   #38   Apr 11, '16, 4:21 am JonNC Forum Elder Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 22,961 Religion: Life-long Lutheran, now Anglican Province of America Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that the dominant civil rights issue of 2016 would be the right of men to use women's bathrooms? It isn't. If this was truly the big "civil rights", all the faux indignation would have happened last year when the ordinance in Charlotte did not pass. This is an election year. For the progressive movement , the issue doesn't matter, power does. Jon   #39   Apr 11, '16, 4:35 am Moneyball Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2015 Posts: 183 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Who knows what Kasich would say to that incident? How do you feel about gay men sharing the same bathroom as straight men? (Or gay women sharing the same bathroom as straight women?) That used to be a major issue, but no longer is. Then let's get rid of male/female rooms altogether, we can let the highschool football team to shower with the cheerleeders after the game. It was thought to be a problem in the past, but apparently biological sex no longer matters.   #40   Apr 11, '16, 5:03 am EleanorArr New Member Join Date: April 4, 2016 Posts: 75 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Will North Carolina accept the birth certificate of Hawaii or does it have to be the long form? Frankly, all this is silly. If Governor Kasich is saying he won't support this because it is a colossal waste of time, then that is a compelling reason to vote for him. He is not as socially conservative as some here might like though and did fail to support the 'heartbeat bill' in Ohio that would have made many (most?) abortions illegal. He also made a big point of going to a gay marriage in an early Republican debate. Regardless of his specific position on abortion provisions in his state (though I hardly think he can be called pro-abortion with any degree of fairness), and the merits of the whole transgender-bathroom debate generally... I agree with Crossbones that any politician who yet retains sufficient common sense to recognise a patently absurd and unenforceable bill when he sees one, ought to get more support. Politics is about ideology and ideas and compromise - and also knowing what is realistic and actually practical.   #41   Apr 11, '16, 5:21 am ucfengr Regular Member Join Date: July 25, 2014 Posts: 4,105 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by EleanorArr Regardless of his specific position on abortion provisions in his state (though I hardly think he can be called pro-abortion with any degree of fairness), and the merits of the whole transgender-bathroom debate generally... I agree with Crossbones that any politician who yet retains sufficient common sense to recognise a patently absurd and unenforceable bill when he sees one, ought to get more support. Politics is about ideology and ideas and compromise - and also knowing what is realistic and actually practical. It's actually pretty easy to enforce, if you have a penis you don't use the women's bathroom. It's only hard because you want to make it hard (no pun intended).   #42   Apr 11, '16, 5:35 am Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr It's actually pretty easy to enforce, if you have a penis you don't use the women's bathroom. It's only hard because you want to make it hard (no pun intended). It gives a whole new meaning to the term bathroom monitors.   #43   Apr 11, '16, 6:11 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,704 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Ojo Feliz So North Carolina now requires people to carry their birth certificate when they use a public restroom? I'm sure this won't be required, and that the intent is to enforce the law on a "complaint basis", as most laws are. So a guy dressed as a woman goes into a womens' rest room and, in doing his duty makes it obvious he's really a guy. Women get offended and complain. That's what this is about. I doubt there would be a lot of complaints about a woman using a mens' restroom. I think this is basically to protect women from having to use a restroom with men.   #44   Apr 11, '16, 8:05 am Murmurs Regular Member Join Date: June 23, 2014 Posts: 1,045 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr It's actually pretty easy to enforce, if you have a penis you don't use the women's bathroom. It's only hard because you want to make it hard (no pun intended). Yes. Although to be fair to EleanorArr's point - it is easily self-enforced. Which is to say if we can assume people will behave "normally" (that is, in accordance with accepted custom with regards bathrooms, changing rooms, etc), then the law is just a statement of common sense. But it's only legally enforceable if there is some means to check that people with 'male' on their birth certificate use male bathrooms and 'females' use those designated for females. Having to produce a piece of paper every time one wants to use a public bathroom would probably count as onerous and intrusive. Which doesn't mean I think the underlying principle of the law is bad - just that the law itself kind of is. __________________ "Where else have we ever seen someone who has been offended, voluntarily paying out his life for those who have offended him?" - St. Catherine of Siena   #45   Apr 11, '16, 10:22 am St Francis Forum Elder Join Date: August 11, 2004 Posts: 16,492 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" University of Toronto re-designates some facilities in a dorm building in which there were two complaints of men secretly videoing women as they showered. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." CS Lewis–God in the Dock, 1948 Apr 11, '16, 10:28 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,704 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Murmurs But it's only legally enforceable if there is some means to check that people with 'male' on their birth certificate use male bathrooms and 'females' use those designated for females. Having to produce a piece of paper every time one wants to use a public bathroom would probably count as onerous and intrusive. Which doesn't mean I think the underlying principle of the law is bad - just that the law itself kind of is. No. The "producing of birth certificates" would be at the police station after a woman complained that some guy was in the womens' restroom. It wouldn't even come up unless the casual observer could tell. Probably most men would put up with some guy in drag using the mens' restroom. Most women would be greatly discomfited it they knew a user of their restroom was really a guy, and rightly so. These kinds of laws are fundamentally designed to protect womens' privacy over that of some guy who wants to pretend he's a woman for whatever reason he wants to do it.   #47   Apr 11, '16, 11:48 am AFerri48 Regular Member Join Date: October 21, 2015 Posts: 893 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by ucfengr It's actually pretty easy to enforce, if you have a penis you don't use the women's bathroom. It's only hard because you want to make it hard (no pun intended). How do you handle hermaphrodites?   #48   Apr 11, '16, 11:52 am Monkey1976 Regular Member Join Date: May 1, 2007 Posts: 2,427 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by AFerri48 How do you handle hermaphrodites? By allowing them to use whichever bathroom corresponds most closely to their actual urogenital tract, then tossing out that rotten red herring that keeps getting thrown around when discussing this issue.   #49   Apr 11, '16, 12:43 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Moneyball Then let's get rid of male/female rooms altogether, we can let the highschool football team to shower with the cheerleeders after the game. It was thought to be a problem in the past, but apparently biological sex no longer matters. My point is that these problems tend to work themselves out over time. Just as people are usually not harmed by gays who share the same bathroom with straights (which was once considered a dangerous situation), they will not be harmed by transgenders. They may feel uncomfortable at first, but people will get used to it. Although unisex bathrooms have been suggested and are even in existence at least in one university (there is another thread on this), I'm not quite ready for that. But I'm from the older generation and never adapted to unisex hairstylists either (from the 1970's, IIRC).   #50   Apr 11, '16, 4:27 pm AFerri48 Regular Member Join Date: October 21, 2015 Posts: 893 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Monkey1976 By allowing them to use whichever bathroom corresponds most closely to their actual urogenital tract, then tossing out that rotten red herring that keeps getting thrown around when discussing this issue. It's not a red herring, it's a legitimate question if bathroom use is simply based on the genitalia.   #51   Apr 11, '16, 4:50 pm Moneyball Junior Member Join Date: December 21, 2015 Posts: 183 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy My point is that these problems tend to work themselves out over time. Just as people are usually not harmed by gays who share the same bathroom with straights (which was once considered a dangerous situation), they will not be harmed by transgenders. They may feel uncomfortable at first, but people will get used to it. Although unisex bathrooms have been suggested and are even in existence at least in one university (there is another thread on this), I'm not quite ready for that. But I'm from the older generation and never adapted to unisex hairstylists either (from the 1970's, IIRC). Why not? You may feel uncomfortable at first, but you'll get used to it.   #52   Apr 11, '16, 6:55 pm JimG Forum Elder Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,250 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Moneyball Why not? You may feel un comfortable at first, but you'll get used to it. And the cheerleaders will get used to using the football players locker room. It's all flexible.   #53   Apr 11, '16, 7:25 pm josh987654321 Regular Member Join Date: March 14, 2013 Posts: 5,262 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by AFerri48 How do you handle hermaphrodites? I would leave that up to the medical professionals who know about the individual case to best decide how one should proceed (I think they have to wait until puberty to see what needs to be done and how the body is responding to make an informed decision, until which time they would simply have to do their best and that is fine). This often gets brought up I believe when people talk about transgender issues, however, they are both very different, in one case, it is legitimately a physical issue, in the other it is a psychological issue and not a physical one, in the cases where it is physically clear, common sense should take over and correctly recognize mental illnesses and correctly advise those people to use the correct bathroom which corresponds to their physical gender (regardless of whether they feel like a woman trapped in a mans body or not, they have a mans body, use the men's bathroom). I hope this has helped God Bless Thank you for reading Josh __________________ Jesus to St Faustina You please Me most when you meditate on My Sorrowful Passion. (Diary, 1512) The greatest misery does not stop Me from uniting Myself to a soul, but where there is pride, I am not there. (Diary, 1563) We resemble God most when we forgive our neighbors. (Diary, 1148)   #54   Apr 11, '16, 7:37 pm SuperLuigi Forum Master Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,514 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: =meltzerboy;13820446]My point is that these problems tend to work themselves out over time. Just as people are usually not harmed by gays who share the same bathroom with straights (which was once considered a dangerous situation), they will not be harmed by transgenders. They may feel uncomfortable at first, but people will get used to it. Somehow, I'm not sure if a 13 yo girl will ever get used to sharing a locker room with a 58 year old man. Quote: Although unisex bathrooms have been suggested and are even in existence at least in one university (there is another thread on this), I'm not quite ready for that. But I'm from the older generation and never adapted to unisex hairstylists either (from the 1970's, IIRC). I think some people may just want to avoid the headache in order to get on with life. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #55   Apr 11, '16, 7:39 pm SuperLuigi Forum Master Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,514 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by AFerri48 It's not a red herring, it's a legitimate question if bathroom use is simply based on the genitalia. Well, the proper Catholic thing to do would be to get some counseling/spiritual direction on the matter and go from there. Some formation of conscience is required. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #56   Apr 11, '16, 7:40 pm Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Has no one here ever left the country? Unisex bathrooms are all over the world. Personally, I am happy when I see a toilet that I recognize. I've been to places where I don't know how to use the facilities. This is an American problem. Let's get over it. We'll be ok.   #57   Apr 11, '16, 7:41 pm Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by SuperLuigi Well, the proper Catholic thing to do would be to get some counseling/spiritual direction on the matter and go from there. Some formation of conscience is required. Really?   #58   Apr 11, '16, 7:42 pm SuperLuigi Forum Master Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,514 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings Has no one here ever left the country? Unisex bathrooms are all over the world. Personally, I am happy when I see a toilet that I recognize. I've been to places where I don't know how to use the facilities. This is an American problem. Let's get over it. We'll be ok. I'm not personally opposed to unisex bathrooms, as they have other advantages for disabled people and parents with small children of the opposite gender. But that doesn't I support someone deciding what gender they are just to be different and . Quote: This is an American problem. Let's get over it. We'll be ok. Why? Because it's a progressive cause and should just automatically be accepted? __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #59   Apr 11, '16, 7:45 pm SuperLuigi Forum Master Join Date: August 28, 2012 Posts: 21,514 Religion: Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings Really? Yes, really. Having an issue like that does not mean that one can just sweep it under the rug and just expect everyone to support it. EVERY Catholic and really every person needs to do some actual thinking and praying and if necessary, seek the proper guidance. __________________ "The left is no longer liberal"-----Dave Rubin "Social network censorship----SEE HOW FAR THEY GET WITH IT!!!!!" --------from Social Justice the Musical "...censorship begins with me, but will end with you". --Milo Yiannapolous Hate speech = free speech #1A #2A   #60   Apr 11, '16, 7:46 pm Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Kasich: "I would not have signed the North Carolina Bathroom Law" Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings Has no one here ever left the country? Unisex bathrooms are all over the world. Personally, I am happy when I see a toilet that I recognize. I've been to places where I don't know how to use the facilities. This is an American problem. Let's get over it. We'll be ok. I always use the handicapped restroom when traveling on the French highway. The men's and women's are the classic toilette de turk, a hole in the ground with a grate over it. Even though I'm French, I never learned how to use one of those thing properly, and they just seem very inconvenient, especially for women. It's nuts. I really don't care if a restroom is unisex as long as there's a door on the stall. As for kids, someone should always be with them even if the men's and women's are separate. Apr 17, '16, 6:50 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,516 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Right here. He says it is only problematic to vote for a candidate who proposes intrinsic evil if the Catholic voter does so primarily because of the candidate's position on an intrinsic evil. But Catholics are to consider issues (ending in an "s" means plural) along with a candidate's character and ability to actually affect anything. Then make a choice of which there are never easy ones. "Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices." He also says in regard to if there is consensus in the conference on whether a pro-choice vote amounts to formal cooperation, "No, I’m sure there isn’t. " http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm Per Archbishop Burke, it is remote material cooperation to vote for a candidate if you don't vote for them because of their position supporting abortion if there are proportionate reasons, but as he says, "What is a proportionate reason to justify favoring the taking of an innocent, defenseless human life? And I just leave that to you as a question. That's the question that has to be answered in your conscience. What is the proportionate reason?" This is what Bishop Kevin W. Vann and Bishop Kevin J. Farrell say in this letter regarding Faithful Citizenship: Quote: 5. Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, in paragraphs 34 – 37, addresses the question of whether is is morally permissible for a Catholic to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil – even when the voter does not agree with the candidate's position on that evil. The only moral possibilities for a Catholic to be able to vote in good conscience for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil are the following: If both candidates running for office support abortion or "abortion rights," a Catholic would be forced to then look at the other important issues and through their vote try to limit the evil done; or, If another intrinsic evil outweighs the evil of abortion. While this is sound moral reasoning, there are no "truly grave moral" or "proportionate" reasons, singularly, or combined, that could outweigh the millions of innocent human lives that are directly killed by legal abortion each year. To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or "abortion rights" when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil – and, therefore, is morally impermissible. http://www.jeffdodson.com/2008/11/02...cs-and-voting/ __________________ Human Life International helps to build the culture of life in more than "100 countries". Please help their mission: https://www.hli.org   #1082   Apr 17, '16, 6:53 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by _Abyssinia This is what Bishop Kevin W. Vann and Bishop Kevin J. Farrell say in this letter regarding Faithful Citizenship: http://www.jeffdodson.com/2008/11/02...cs-and-voting/ Then why wouldn't the document just say that?   #1083   Apr 17, '16, 7:06 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,516 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Then why wouldn't the document just say that? I can't answer that question, but Bishop Vasa actually contributed to the Faithful Citizenship document and he said: Quote: "When we were working on the document ‘Faithful Citizenship’, and the issue of whether or not a person’s adamant pro-abortion position was a disqualifying condition, the general sense was ‘yes that is a disqualifying condition’." https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bi...s-faithful-cit He discussions proportionate reasons in that article. He had also said: Quote: "The document does not say, for instance, that it is just fine to vote for a pro-abortion candidate as long as one votes for that candidate only because of his or her stand on other important social issues," he wrote. "Casting a vote, even for reasons other than the candidate’s pro-abortion position, is still casting a vote for the preservation of ‘a legal system which violates the basic right to life.’" He compared support for a candidate who supports keeping abortion legal to backing a candidate who vows to institute a program of genocide against a minority group or "an aggressive program of torture to root out crime, violence and terrorism in this country." "Just as a vote for a genocidal maniac is a vote for genocide and a vote for the avowed torturer is a vote for torture … so a vote for a promoter of abortion, when there is another less evil alternative, is a vote for abortion," Bishop Vasa said. http://www.nzcatholic.org.nz/2008/10...mns-statements __________________ Human Life International helps to build the culture of life in more than "100 countries". Please help their mission: https://www.hli.org Last edited by _Abyssinia; Apr 17, '16 at 7:17 pm.   #1084   Apr 17, '16, 7:18 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by _Abyssinia I can't answer that question, but Bishop Vasa actually contributed to the Faithful Citizenship document and he said: http://www.nzcatholic.org.nz/2008/10...mns-statements I find it odd that Faithful Citizenship wouldn't say that then. It seems like it could be much shorter if it said, well, we care about other issues, but there is no proportional reason not to vote for the pro-life candidate, so you should vote for the pro-life candidate. Bishop Kicalas suggests there is more to it than that.   #1085   Apr 17, '16, 7:25 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Peccavi Anti-socialist seems to be a very US problem Here in Europe Catholics have no problem voting socialist - in fact many Socialists elected to European parliaments are Catholic. US Catholics do seem to me to have a different more narrow view of Catholicism than those Catholics in Europe and South America. Catholics are far less politically polarised in these continents. I don't know but I wonder if you have possibly hit onto something here with your analysis. Maybe those US Catholics whose politics are Republican or lean conservative, such as many on this forum, and who tend to vote for like-minded candidates, have narrowed the view. It's at least something to ponder. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #1086   Apr 17, '16, 7:29 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones I find it odd that Faithful Citizenship wouldn't say that then. It seems like it could be much shorter if it said, well, we care about other issues, but there is no proportional reason not to vote for the pro-life candidate, so you should vote for the pro-life candidate. Bishop Kicalas suggests there is more to it than that. Much shorter. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #1087   Apr 17, '16, 7:31 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc First of all, no one ever says they are "pro-abortion," rather they frame it as "pro-choice." It is possible for a person to be against abortion, but "pro-choice" -- I ran into those types when I was out campaigning for Democrat Ellen McCormack (anti-abortion platform) in 1976. At least some understood that pushing women out into back alley abortions was harmful not only to the baby but also to the woman. I did know a couple of women who nearly bled to death circa 1965. On the other hand, this label "pro-life" that people take on for themselves when they have no concern at all about their participation of wiping out life on earth thru environmental harms, etc. is a misnomer. They might be "anti-abortion," but they don't really seem to care about life or killing people. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #1088   Apr 17, '16, 7:31 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe I don't know but I wonder if you have possibly hit onto something here with your analysis. Maybe those US Catholics whose politics are Republican or lean conservative, such as many on this forum, and who tend to vote for like-minded candidates, have narrowed the view. It's at least something to ponder. Two reasons: 1) Abortion is not an issue in Europe. Most European countries do not have politicians that do support the 'right to choose.' As such, there is not an issue that challenges Catholics to make a tough decision between two poor choices. 2) The Evangelical community has taken on the Republicans as their adapted political home. As such, you see the skewing of Christ's teachings to support Republican views on economic policy or waging war instead of challenging them. Clearly, this community in the past has used their religion to support slavery, segregation and racism, so this is not a new phenomena. This has trickled into the Catholic community that refuses to see torture as torture and unjust wars as unjust wars.   #1089   Apr 17, '16, 7:38 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Much shorter. I know. It's like some are claiming that the vast majority of the document is a distraction from its clear, underlying purpose that the only issue that matters is to vote for the pro-life politician. It's like the Wizard of Oz.   #1090   Apr 18, '16, 12:31 am Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc First of all, no one ever says they are "pro-abortion," rather they frame it as "pro-choice." It is possible for a person to be against abortion, but "pro-choice" -- I ran into those types when I was out campaigning for Democrat Ellen McCormack (anti-abortion platform) in 1976. At least some understood that pushing women out into back alley abortions was harmful not only to the baby but also to the woman. I did know a couple of women who nearly bled to death circa 1965. On the other hand, this label "pro-life" that people take on for themselves when they have no concern at all about their participation of wiping out life on earth thru environmental harms, etc. is a misnomer. They might be "anti-abortion," but they don't really seem to care about life or killing people. Great post! Those who are pro-choice usually don't mind if no one ever has an abortion. They just don't want to see women being butchered along with their child, or more likely, they feel the choice is the woman's to make, along with her family, doctor, and faith leader. I've seen many so-called pro-life persons who don't give a hoot about life once the child is born. I used to call them "pro-birth," but that seems derogatory, so I stick to pro-choice and anti-abortion now. I do not personally believe in abortion, however, I do believe, under the US Constitution, it should be legal in the US. I do think the individual states have a right to prohibit abortion, however, but I don't think that's going to happen. Like Pope Paul VI, I believe it is contraceptives that ushered in the "culture of death," a term coined by St. Pope JP II, and I don't believe contraception is going to lose its hold on people of childbearing age. I know many Catholics who contracept and feel their families are better for it. I know Catholics who say if they did not contracept, they would abort, and these are Catholics who are looked at as "good" Catholics. They are not lapsed Catholics. Last edited by Lily Bernans; Apr 18, '16 at 12:41 am.   #1091   Apr 18, '16, 12:34 am Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Thanks Lily but your posts are most helpful. I honestly just don't understand what is so difficult about this to grasp. I don't see why possible "remote material cooperation with evil, at worst," is so hard to understand, either, Sy. It's something we all do on a daily basis. Sometimes we aren't aware of it, e.g., we might buy a garment from a sweatshop in China, and sometimes we are, e.g., we refuse to give up our trendy Starbucks designer coffees. I don't think any president, of any party, in the history of the US, has attempted to force women to abort. Some posters act like Hillary and Bernie and maybe Trump would be pulling pregnant women off the streets and driving them to abortion clinics themselves. They wouldn't, as you know. As for Supreme Court justices, we just can't predict what they'll do. I don't think this forum would have guessed a Repub. SC would have upheld Roe v Wade and PP v Casey or that abortions would decline under Obama, but such is the case.   #1092   Apr 18, '16, 1:45 am Tomdstone Banned Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 11,614 Religion: other Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans I know many Catholics who contracept and feel their families are better for it. I know Catholics who say if they did not contracept, they would abort, and these are Catholics who are looked at as "good" Catholics. They are not lapsed Catholics. Is it still a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic to contracept, or has that rule been changed? I know that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, a priest might make exceptions under certain conditions, for example, if the married couple already has four children and are experiencing financial difficulties.   #1093   Apr 18, '16, 4:21 am Dwyer Regular Member Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans Great post! Those who are pro-choice usually don't mind if no one ever has an abortion. They just don't want to see women being butchered along with their child, or more likely, they feel the choice is the woman's to make, along with her family, doctor, and faith leader. I've seen many so-called pro-life persons who don't give a hoot about life once the child is born. I used to call them "pro-birth," but that seems derogatory, so I stick to pro-choice and anti-abortion now. I do not personally believe in abortion, however, I do believe, under the US Constitution, it should be legal in the US. I do think the individual states have a right to prohibit abortion, however, but I don't think that's going to happen. Like Pope Paul VI, I believe it is contraceptives that ushered in the "culture of death," a term coined by St. Pope JP II, and I don't believe contraception is going to lose its hold on people of childbearing age. I know many Catholics who contracept and feel their families are better for it. I know Catholics who say if they did not contracept, they would abort, and these are Catholics who are looked at as "good" Catholics. They are not lapsed Catholics. Quote: Laws which authorize and promote abortion and euthanasia are therefore radically opposed not only to the good of the individual but also to the common good; as such they are completely lacking in authentic juridical validity. Disregard for the right to life, precisely because it leads to the killing of the person whom society exists to serve, is what most directly conflicts with the possibility of achieving the common good. Consequently, a civil law authorizing abortion or euthanasia ceases by that very fact to be a true, morally binding civil law. Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. -- Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life) Those who are Pro-Death are nobody's friend. __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #1094   Apr 18, '16, 4:39 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones He would have given a very different answer to the question if you couldn't. Where does he say it is licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative is available ? Again you're asking us to depend upon your personal opinion of what the bishop "meant " rather than what he actually said .   #1095   Apr 18, '16, 4:48 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe Right here. He says it is only problematic to vote for a candidate who proposes intrinsic evil if the Catholic voter does so primarily because of the candidate's position on an intrinsic evil. But Catholics are to consider issues (ending in an "s" means plural) along with a candidate's character and ability to actually affect anything. Then make a choice of which there are never easy ones. "Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices." He also says in regard to if there is consensus in the conference on whether a pro-choice vote amounts to formal cooperation, "No, I’m sure there isn’t. " http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm So once again we are asked to ignore the clear concise quotes of numerous members of the magisterium and church documents and rely instead upon individuals Catholics personal interpretation of what a bishop really "meant" when asked about a couple paragraphs in a USCCB documentv Can you single member of the magisterium that explicitly says it is licit for Catholics to vote for pro-abortion candidate if a more pro-life alternative is available ? And of course no one disagrees that voting for a pro-abortion candidate when his opponent is more pro-abortion than they are is not formal corporation with evil As Archbishop Chaput states such a vote is not voting for the lesser of two evils- it is voting to lessen evil . Apr 18, '16, 5:00 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,534 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Where does he say it is licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative is available ? Again you're asking us to depend upon your personal opinion of what the bishop "meant " rather than what he actually said . What are the proportionate reasons that allowed Catholics to vote for Mitt Romney vs Virgil Goode in the last election? Can you cite some of the hierarchy pointing out these reasons?   #1097   Apr 18, '16, 5:02 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones I find it odd that Faithful Citizenship wouldn't say that then. It seems like it could be much shorter if it said, well, we care about other issues, but there is no proportional reason not to vote for the pro-life candidate, so you should vote for the pro-life candidate. Bishop Kicalas suggests there is more to it than that. It's odd that that a Catholic will believe that Faithful Citizenship is the sum total of all Catholic teaching . Regardless of how many quotes from members of the magisterium or church documents we provide the reply as always " my personal interpretation of Faithful Citizenship differs with that ." Surely if it was licit for Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available somebody in the Magestrium would've said so directly. You know something clear and concise like this: "No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion. "You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone" Cardinal Burke   #1098   Apr 18, '16, 5:12 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Where does he say it is licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative is available ? Again you're asking us to depend upon your personal opinion of what the bishop "meant " rather than what he actually said . From the article, Interviewer: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go. Is that right? Bishop Kicanas: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. I would think it would be a slam dunk if Bishop Kicanas held your view.   #1099   Apr 18, '16, 5:18 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob It's odd that that a Catholic will believe that Faithful Citizenship is the sum total of all Catholic teaching . Regardless of how many quotes from members of the magisterium or church documents we provide the reply as always " my personal interpretation of Faithful Citizenship differs with that ." Surely if it was licit for Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available somebody in the Magestrium would've said so directly. You know something clear and concise like this: "No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion. "You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone" Cardinal Burke It would seem that Bishop Kicanas does not agree with your interpretation of Church teaching or he would have answered the questions in the posted interview differently. He seems to be a strong supporter of the Forming Consciences document.   #1100   Apr 18, '16, 5:19 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 What are the proportionate reasons that allowed Catholics to vote for Mitt Romney vs Virgil Goode in the last election? Can you cite some of the hierarchy pointing out these reasons? If you think Catholics are required to throw their vote away on non-viable candidates then you should do so .But as Bishop Kicanas points out voting often requires us to make tough choices and one of those would be to choose a viable candidate over one who is more in line with Catholic teaching on abortion but has no chance whatsoever to win .   #1101   Apr 18, '16, 5:23 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones It would seem that Bishop Kicanas does not agree with your interpretation of Church teaching or he would have answered the questions in the posted interview differently. He seems to be a strong supporter of the Forming Consciences document. Once again you're asking us to rely upon your personal interpretation of what Bishop Kicanas "meant" Can you point out a single instance where Bishop Kicanas or any other member of the magisterium specifically stated it was licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available ?   #1102   Apr 18, '16, 5:23 am jtauke Regular Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Posts: 1,238 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Socialism is always bad. It does not make a difference if it is democratic or not. Will you be burning your social security checks later in life? It be rather hypocritical for you to benefit monetarily from a socialist program. Better not use Medicaid or Medicare either.   #1103   Apr 18, '16, 5:24 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob If you think Catholics are required to throw their vote away on non-viable candidates then you should do so .But as Bishop Kicanas points out voting often requires us to make tough choices and one of those would be to choose a viable candidate over one who is more in line with Catholic teaching on abortion but has no chance whatsoever to win . I can understand StinkCat's concern though. According to Bishop Vasas, "Just as a vote for a genocidal maniac is a vote for genocide and a vote for the avowed torturer is a vote for torture … so a vote for a promoter of abortion, when there is another less evil alternative, is a vote for abortion." So, if you vote for a major party candidate, you are either voting to support abortion or voting to support torture and unjust wars. I can see wanting to support neither.   #1104   Apr 18, '16, 5:26 am jtauke Regular Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Posts: 1,238 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob If you think Catholics are required to throw their vote away on non-viable candidates then you should do so .But as Bishop Kicanas points out voting often requires us to make tough choices and one of those would be to choose a viable candidate over one who is more in line with Catholic teaching on abortion but has no chance whatsoever to win . Voting for "the lesser if two evils" is capitulation, pure and simple.   #1105   Apr 18, '16, 5:27 am mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,604 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Once again you're asking us to rely upon your personal interpretation of what Bishop Kicanas "meant" Can you point out a single instance where Bishop Kicanas or any other member of the magisterium specifically stated it was licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available ? It is so discouraging to see people interpret what a person, in this case a bishop, means when he makes a statement. Seems like reading into the statement what one wants to hear. I have always been taught that abortion is a mortal sin and to cooperate in that sin is, in itself, a sin. When did the teachings of the church change? __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.   #1106   Apr 18, '16, 5:27 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Once again you're asking us to rely upon your personal interpretation of what Bishop Kicanas "meant" Can you point out a single instance where Bishop Kicanas or any other member of the magisterium specifically stated it was licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available ? Of course, I don't want any reader to rely on my personal interpretation as I'm sure you wouldn't want any reader to rely on your personal interpretation. I think everyone should read all the resources available to them including the Forming Consciences document and what individual bishops and decide for themselves what they mean.   #1107   Apr 18, '16, 5:31 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by mary bobo It is so discouraging to see people interpret what a person, in this case a bishop, means when he makes a statement. Seems like reading into the statement what one wants to hear. I have always been taught that abortion is a mortal sin and to cooperate in that sin is, in itself, a sin. When did the teachings of the church change? It is not clear that voting for a pro-choice politician is material cooperation with evil and hence a sin. But I do agree, many around here do read into a statement what they want to hear.   #1108   Apr 18, '16, 5:33 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,534 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob If you think Catholics are required to throw their vote away on non-viable candidates then you should do so I am not asking for your opinion, but for Church teaching on the issue. Cite some documents. You have stated before that there are no proportionate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life candidate is available. In addition, voting for Romney was throwing your vote away. He had no chance and Catholics help put him there in the first place. Maybe if Catholics voting for pro-life candidates in the primaries, then we wouldn't be faced with the choice of voting for pro-abortion candidates. Quote: .But as Bishop Kicanas points out voting often requires us to make tough choices and one of those would be to choose a viable candidate over one who is more in line with Catholic teaching on abortion but has no chance whatsoever to win . So there are proportionate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion candidate?   #1109   Apr 18, '16, 5:36 am jtauke Regular Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Posts: 1,238 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones It is not clear that voting for a pro-choice politician is material cooperation with evil and hence a sin. But I do agree, many around here do read into a statement what they want to hear. And it begs the question of the morality of voting for trump as well. Would voting for trump, who supports torture and summary execution of the families of "suspected" terrorists not be material cooperation with evil?   #1110   Apr 18, '16, 5:47 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by jtauke And it begs the question of the morality of voting for trump as well. Would voting for trump, who supports torture and summary execution of the families of "suspected" terrorists not be material cooperation with evil? I don't know. But, by Bishop Vasas' statement, you would clearly be a supporter of torture and summary execution of families. Apr 18, '16, 5:53 am jtauke Regular Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Posts: 1,238 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones I don't know. But, by Bishop Vasas' statement, you would clearly be a supporter of torture and summary execution of families. Exactly.   #1112   Apr 18, '16, 5:56 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 I am not asking for your opinion, but for Church teaching on the issue. Cite some documents. You have stated before that there are no proportionate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life candidate is available. In addition, voting for Romney was throwing your vote away. He had no chance and Catholics help put him there in the first place. Maybe if Catholics voting for pro-life candidates in the primaries, then we wouldn't be faced with the choice of voting for pro-abortion candidates. So there are proportionate reasons for voting for a pro-abortion candidate? As always it is best to let' a member of the Magestrium to explain: "Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: candidate (A, Kerry) who is completely for abortion-on-demand, candidate (B, Bush) who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and candidate (C, Peroutka), a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable. "The Catholic voter cannot vote for candidate (A, Kerry) because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation, which would remove restrictions on, abortion-on-demand. "The Catholic can vote for candidate (C, Peroutka) but that will probably only help ensure the election of candidate (A, Kerry). Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for candidate (B, Bush) since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and introduces legislation restricting abortion-on-demand. In such a case, the Catholic voter would have chosen the lesser of two evils, which is morally permissible under these circumstances." Bishop Rene Gracida   #1113   Apr 18, '16, 5:59 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob As always it is best to let' a member of the Magestrium to explain: "Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: candidate (A, Kerry) who is completely for abortion-on-demand, candidate (B, Bush) who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and candidate (C, Peroutka), a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable. "The Catholic voter cannot vote for candidate (A, Kerry) because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation, which would remove restrictions on, abortion-on-demand. "The Catholic can vote for candidate (C, Peroutka) but that will probably only help ensure the election of candidate (A, Kerry). Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for candidate (B, Bush) since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of candidate (A, Kerry) and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if candidate (B, Bush) is elected and introduces legislation restricting abortion-on-demand. In such a case, the Catholic voter would have chosen the lesser of two evils, which is morally permissible under these circumstances." Bishop Rene Gracida Since President Bush was that election, then we can measure how many innocent lives were saved by legislation restricting abortion on demand. What? No legislation. Well, at least we got some unjust wars and torture out of the deal.   #1114   Apr 18, '16, 6:03 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,534 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Since President Bush was that election, then we can measure how many innocent lives were saved by legislation restricting abortion on demand. What? No legislation. Well, at least we got some unjust wars and torture out of the deal. While one could vote for Bush, there was no moral obligation to vote for Bush. While one may vote for most republicans, not on their own merits, but because they are a lessor evil. One is not morally obligated to vote for a republican.   #1115   Apr 18, '16, 6:04 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 While one could vote for Bush, there was no moral obligation to vote for Bush. While one may vote for most republicans, not on their own merits, but because they are a lessor evil. One is not morally obligated to vote for a republican. Was he the lessor evil?   #1116   Apr 18, '16, 6:07 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Of course, I don't want any reader to rely on my personal interpretation as I'm sure you wouldn't want any reader to rely on your personal interpretation. I think everyone should read all the resources available to them including the Forming Consciences document and what individual bishops and decide for themselves what they mean. Unfortunately many do this and then come into Catholic forums and continually mistate Catholic teaching to buttress their personal political views. Lest other Catholics be misled it necessary to refute them with direct quotes from members of the Magestruim and Vatican documents. A Catholic simply cannot vote for pro-abortion candidate unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are. I have yet to see anyone be able to refute this simple statement with anything other than their personal interpretation of a few linesc of a USCCB document and an interview with a Bishop where the assertion is we are not to look at what he says but what he doesn't say   #1117   Apr 18, '16, 6:08 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 While one could vote for Bush, there was no moral obligation to vote for Bush. While one may vote for most republicans, not on their own merits, but because they are a lessor evil. One is not morally obligated to vote for a republican. No one ever said we are morally obligated to vote for Republican. Party is totally irrelevant .   #1118   Apr 18, '16, 6:10 am lynnvinc Regular Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 5,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Socialism is always bad. It does not make a difference if it is democratic or not. Of course bad for the billionaires. They have to start paying taxes What I've never been able to figure out is why would a person need to have so much money? How many yachts can they be sailing on at the same time? Oh yeah, once they have the money, then they need to buy elections and politicians so they can get them to dismantle the regs -- EPA, worker wages and safety, etc. So it's either about making more money or so they can kill and harm at will with impunity. Or maybe it's just like a game to them and they want to win....like Monopoly. __________________ "The Lord God lives before whom I stand." -- 1 Kings 17:1 "Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi "I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth." -- St. Therese of the Child Jesus   #1119   Apr 18, '16, 6:13 am lynnvinc Regular Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 5,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Gravis poll results for NY primary - Bernie lags Hilary by only 6% with a 2.9% margin of error. See http://www.oann.com/pollny/ __________________ "The Lord God lives before whom I stand." -- 1 Kings 17:1 "Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi "I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth." -- St. Therese of the Child Jesus   #1120   Apr 18, '16, 6:14 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Since President Bush was that election, then we can measure how many innocent lives were saved by legislation restricting abortion on demand. What? No legislation. Well, at least we got some unjust wars and torture out of the deal. His reinstitution of the Mexico City policy undoubtedly saved thousands and thousands of lives of unborn children in Third World countries . He also signed the partial-birth abortion law , the first restriction on abortion passed since Roe was opposed . A grand total of three terrorist were water boarded during the Bush administration . But then again if people Really think Bush supports unjust wars and torture I suggest they not vote for him in the 2016 election   #1121   Apr 18, '16, 6:19 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc Gravis poll results for NY primary - Bernie lags Hilary by only 6% with a 2.9% margin of error. See http://www.oann.com/pollny/ Interesting. If Sanders can start gaining some of the superdelegates it could make for an interesting convention   #1122   Apr 18, '16, 6:26 am lynnvinc Regular Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 5,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc Gravis poll results for NY primary - Bernie lags Hilary by only 6% with a 2.9% margin of error. See http://www.oann.com/pollny/ Also on general election polls, Sanders does much better than Clinton against any of the Republican candidates: For Sanders v. Trump see: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ders-5565.html The general election polls for other match-ups are linked on that page. __________________ "The Lord God lives before whom I stand." -- 1 Kings 17:1 "Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi "I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth." -- St. Therese of the Child Jesus   #1123   Apr 18, '16, 6:29 am Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc Of course bad for the billionaires. They have to start paying taxes What I've never been able to figure out is why would a person need to have so much money? How many yachts can they be sailing on at the same time? Oh yeah, once they have the money, then they need to buy elections and politicians so they can get them to dismantle the regs -- EPA, worker wages and safety, etc. So it's either about making more money or so they can kill and harm at will with impunity. Or maybe it's just like a game to them and they want to win....like Monopoly. I often wonder about how much money is needed, too. I think that once they make a tremendous amount of money the thrill is gone. The next thrill comes from power. They use all that money to gain power. Nothing is ever going to make them completely happy.   #1124   Apr 18, '16, 6:31 am Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings I often wonder about how much money is needed, too. I think that once they make a tremendous amount of money the thrill is gone. The next thrill comes from power. They use all that money to gain power. Nothing is ever going to make them completely happy. The way I see it, the more money I have the more I can help other people who are very needy, and animals as well. I'd buy some nice things - a house, a boat, some businesses, but I'd use the bulk of the money to help others, especially the homeless, and to help homeless animals.   #1125   Apr 18, '16, 6:32 am Good Tidings Regular Member Join Date: December 19, 2013 Posts: 1,690 Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans The way I see it, the more money I have the more I can help other people who are very needy, and animals as well. So many of these power brokers don't think like that. Imagine if they did! Apr 18, '16, 6:32 am zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by gilliam I think we would describe the early Christian communities as socialism No, we wouldn't. The early Church shared in charity their goods among themselves freely, without coercion or force. This is NOT socialism.   #1127   Apr 18, '16, 6:34 am Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings So many of these power brokers don't think like that. Imagine if they did! I know they don't. Sad! I'm not into power, though. The only person I'd like to control is me! LOL   #1128   Apr 18, '16, 6:42 am zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans Great post! Those who are pro-choice usually don't mind if no one ever has an abortion. They just don't want to see women being butchered along with their child, or more likely, they feel the choice is the woman's to make, along with her family, doctor, and faith leader. No one has the right to "choose" to kill an innocent person. A Christian cannot support such a "choice". Quote: I've seen many so-called pro-life persons who don't give a hoot about life once the child is born. I used to call them "pro-birth," but that seems derogatory, so I stick to pro-choice and anti-abortion now. More justifications you use to excuse your support of intrinsic evil. Paint those who are working to protect life as monsters, so that you can continue to oppose Church teaching. Quote: I do not personally believe in abortion, You PERSONALLY want it to remain legal, so YES, you DO personally believe in abortion. Quote: I know many Catholics who contracept and feel their families are better for it. Their feelings are wrong, and they are in mortal sin. A Christian should practice charity to such people and warn them they are putting their soul in jeopardy of damnation. Quote: I know Catholics who say if they did not contracept, they would abort, and these are Catholics who are looked at as "good" Catholics. They are not lapsed Catholics. They most certainly ARE lapsed Catholics. They have rejected Church teaching, so they are lapsed. They may be attending Mass, but they reject the Christian faith. And you can really see it in what they say, that if they weren't sinning by using contraception, they would instead sin by killing their child. Shows how perverted the conscience can become when one rejects even one Church teaching.   #1129   Apr 18, '16, 6:46 am zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by lynnvinc Of course bad for the billionaires. They have to start paying taxes What I've never been able to figure out is why would a person need to have so much money? How many yachts can they be sailing on at the same time? Oh yeah, once they have the money, then they need to buy elections and politicians so they can get them to dismantle the regs -- EPA, worker wages and safety, etc. So it's either about making more money or so they can kill and harm at will with impunity. Or maybe it's just like a game to them and they want to win....like Monopoly. The "special" or "elite" class in socialized countries are always protected. Political leaders always promise they will punish the "evil" rich, but rarely do it. And socialist countries are the worst polluters of the world. You'd think someone who actually cared about the planet would care about that fact.   #1130   Apr 18, '16, 6:50 am Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 No one has the right to "choose" to kill an innocent person. A Christian cannot support such a "choice". More justifications you use to excuse your support of intrinsic evil. Paint those who are working to protect life as monsters, so that you can continue to oppose Church teaching. You PERSONALLY want it to remain legal, so YES, you DO personally believe in abortion. Their feelings are wrong, and they are in mortal sin. A Christian should practice charity to such people and warn them they are putting their soul in jeopardy of damnation. They most certainly ARE lapsed Catholics. They have rejected Church teaching, so they are lapsed. They may be attending Mass, but they reject the Christian faith. And you can really see it in what they say, that if they weren't sinning by using contraception, they would instead sin by killing their child. Shows how perverted the conscience can become when one rejects even one Church teaching. Justice Scalia thought as I do, that abortion should be legal in the US, and it was up to the individual states to prohibit it. I trust his judgment over yours, no offense meant, and believe he was an expert in constitutional law. Please do not tell me what I believe. I do not believe in abortion. One has to separate the moral from the legal. Blame the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution. I do not support abortion on demand.   #1131   Apr 18, '16, 6:53 am lynnvinc Regular Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 5,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Joseph3 Socialism is always bad. It does not make a difference if it is democratic or not. Sanders is for the Nordic Model of Socialism -- see Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model "The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism or Nordic social democracy) refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level. Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade." However, even if Bernie were to become president, it is unlikely that he would be able to get the US to go that far. It would just be great if he could help (with our support) bring about a more just and healthy society that would reduce harms and killing of people. Maybe, since he is such a great fan of Pope Francis and Catholic social teaching, he might even do things to help reduce abortion in a greater way than what the Republican candidates plan to do -- push it into the back alleys and down to Mexico, and if the babies get born, let them fend for themselves on the streets. __________________ "The Lord God lives before whom I stand." -- 1 Kings 17:1 "Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi "I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth." -- St. Therese of the Child Jesus   #1132   Apr 18, '16, 6:57 am lynnvinc Regular Member Join Date: May 20, 2010 Posts: 5,182 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 The "special" or "elite" class in socialized countries are always protected. Political leaders always promise they will punish the "evil" rich, but rarely do it. And socialist countries are the worst polluters of the world. You'd think someone who actually cared about the planet would care about that fact. My understanding is that Germany, UK, and Nordic countries are somewhat better on the environment than the US, but maybe you know something I don't know. However, Bernie is by far the best environmentalist candidate. Trump and Cruz are for killing us all out thru environmental harms. They are exceedingly terrible, esp Cruz (let's face it Trump really doesn't know much about anything, but Cruz does). __________________ "The Lord God lives before whom I stand." -- 1 Kings 17:1 "Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words." -- St. Francis of Assisi "I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth." -- St. Therese of the Child Jesus   #1133   Apr 18, '16, 7:10 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones I find it odd that Faithful Citizenship wouldn't say that then. It seems like it could be much shorter if it said, well, we care about other issues, but there is no proportional reason not to vote for the pro-life candidate, so you should vote for the pro-life candidate. Bishop Kicalas suggests there is more to it than that. It's odd that that a Catholic will believe that Faithful Citizenship is the sum total of all Catholic teaching . Regardless of how many quotes from members of the magisterium or church documents we provide the reply as always " my personal interpretation of Faithful Citizenship differs with that ." Surely if it was licit for Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available somebody in the Magestrium would've said so directly. You know something clear and concise like this: "No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion. "You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone" Cardinal Burke   #1134   Apr 18, '16, 7:15 am meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,596 Religion: Jewish Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by jtauke Will you be burning your social security checks later in life? It be rather hypocritical for you to benefit monetarily from a socialist program. Better not use Medicaid or Medicare either. Yes, an anti-socialist is someone who doesn't yet need some of the benefits that the government provides. When they do need any of the so-called entitlements, they magically support socialist programs.   #1135   Apr 18, '16, 7:16 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans Justice Scalia thought as I do, that abortion should be legal in the US, and it was up to the individual states to prohibit it. I trust his judgment over yours, no offense meant, and believe he was an expert in constitutional law. Please do not tell me what I believe. I do not believe in abortion. One has to separate the moral from the legal. Blame the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution. I do not support abortion on demand. Do You trust his judgment over the teachings of the holy Catholic Church? We are required to oppose unjust laws The “separation of Church and state” does not mean — and it can never mean — separating our Catholic faith from our public witness, our political choices and our political actions. That kind of separation would require Christians to deny who we are; to repudiate Jesus when he commands us to be “leaven in the world” and to “make disciples of all nations.” That kind of radical separation steals the moral content of a society. It’s the equivalent of telling a married man that he can’t act married in public. Of course, he can certainly do that, but he won’t stay married. Archbishop CharlescChaput   #1136   Apr 18, '16, 7:18 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans The way I see it, the more money I have the more I can help other people who are very needy, and animals as well. I'd buy some nice things - a house, a boat, some businesses, but I'd use the bulk of the money to help others, especially the homeless, and to help homeless animals. You don't Need money to help the poor and needy. All it takes his time and will   #1137   Apr 18, '16, 7:25 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,534 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Yes, an anti-socialist is someone who doesn't yet need some of the benefits that the government provides. When they do need any of the so-called entitlements, they magically support socialist programs. It is not just needing social programs, it is wanting them. There are plenty of people who don't need social security and medicare, but few turn them down. If fact, we see people jumping through hoops to redefine them as something other than socialist programs.   #1138   Apr 18, '16, 7:32 am Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob It's odd that that a Catholic will believe that Faithful Citizenship is the sum total of all Catholic teaching . Regardless of how many quotes from members of the magisterium or church documents we provide the reply as always " my personal interpretation of Faithful Citizenship differs with that ." Surely if it was licit for Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when a more pro-life alternative was available somebody in the Magestrium would've said so directly. You know something clear and concise like this: "No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion. "You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone" Cardinal Burke Again, the Faithful Citizenship guide would be much shorter than. After all, Cardinal Burke has summarized all of Catholic voting into a single issue and you could put that into a business card and hand it out. I don't think I am wrong to think that a majority of bishops want us to think about a variety of issues based on the guide and the comments of Bishop Kicanas who said about voters seeking Catholic guidance: "I think they’ve been helped greatly by the bishops’ document on forming consciences. [The document is titled “Faithful Citizenship.”] I think helping people to understand the document is important, because what you hear from people is that it’s too dense, we don’t understand it, it’s too complex, you should say things more simply. The reality, of course, is that the world is complex. These issues are not easy."   #1139   Apr 18, '16, 7:33 am oliver927 Regular Member Join Date: January 8, 2015 Posts: 555 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans Justice Scalia thought as I do, that abortion should be legal in the US, and it was up to the individual states to prohibit it. I trust his judgment over yours, no offense meant, and believe he was an expert in constitutional law. What I bolded in your above statement seems to be more along the lines of Scalia thinking the Federal Government should not have any say in the abortion issue because there is nothing in the US Constitution about abortion, combined with the 10th Amendment which say unless the Constitution specifically says the Feds can or that the States can not, it is left to the States or the People. I think this is a Much more likely scenario than what you have described Scalia's position to be.   #1140   Apr 18, '16, 8:27 am Peccavi Junior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Posts: 433 Religion: Nazarene Re: Sanders Thread Sorry but when I listen to US Americans talk about "Socialism" I hear more prejudice than facts. Democratic Socialism is never "imposed" but chosen by the people in the ballot box. Secondly it is democratic. On this Forum there is a muddled view of "socialism" which stems from Cold War attitudes to communism Soviet style. Soviet Communism and Democratic Socialism are not two peas from the same pod but often in this and other US forums conflated into an unreality. As for Catholics being unable to support socialists ideas, well Robert Frederick Drinan, Jesuit Priest and an elected Member of Congress did. Was he defrocked ? No. In South America Father Gustavo Gutierrez has preached the Gospel of Liberation to the Poor and is held in high esteem by Pope Francis. Just two examples of many Catholic priests who favour a socialist approach to creating the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Catholic faithful are a much broader spectrum of humanity than the narrow visions of the conservative thinkers. There is a tradition in the UK of Christian Socialism linked to Catholic and Anglo-Catholic clergy. I find disturbing some of the distortions on this Forum that frankly stem from ignorance and prejudice and from the ethics of the Cold War.  Apr 18, '16, 10:11 am Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,022 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob So once again we are asked to ignore the clear concise quotes of numerous members of the magisterium and church documents and rely instead upon individuals Catholics personal interpretation of what a bishop really "meant" when asked about a couple paragraphs in a USCCB documentv Can you single member of the magisterium that explicitly says it is licit for Catholics to vote for pro-abortion candidate if a more pro-life alternative is available ? And of course no one disagrees that voting for a pro-abortion candidate when his opponent is more pro-abortion than they are is not formal corporation with evil As Archbishop Chaput states such a vote is not voting for the lesser of two evils- it is voting to lessen evil . I have quoted the precise words of a member of the magisterium numerous times. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #1142   Apr 18, '16, 10:17 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,704 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Peccavi Sorry but when I listen to US Americans talk about "Socialism" I hear more prejudice than facts. Democratic Socialism is never "imposed" but chosen by the people in the ballot box. Secondly it is democratic. On this Forum there is a muddled view of "socialism" which stems from Cold War attitudes to communism Soviet style. Soviet Communism and Democratic Socialism are not two peas from the same pod but often in this and other US forums conflated into an unreality. As for Catholics being unable to support socialists ideas, well Robert Frederick Drinan, Jesuit Priest and an elected Member of Congress did. Was he defrocked ? No. In South America Father Gustavo Gutierrez has preached the Gospel of Liberation to the Poor and is held in high esteem by Pope Francis. Just two examples of many Catholic priests who favour a socialist approach to creating the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Catholic faithful are a much broader spectrum of humanity than the narrow visions of the conservative thinkers. There is a tradition in the UK of Christian Socialism linked to Catholic and Anglo-Catholic clergy. I find disturbing some of the distortions on this Forum that frankly stem from ignorance and prejudice and from the ethics of the Cold War. Touting socialism is like touting the tooth fairy. Real "socialism" doesn't exist anywhere, and never did. European "socialist" countries have plenty of wealth privilege. Ordinary people are taxed heavily to pay for social programs. As a result, they have inadequate funds for family formation and don't have children to speak of anymore. Never mind the Nordic countries that have oil wealth and tiny populations to divide it among or the "hidden banking" nations. Most of the high taxation states don't have it all that good. Look at France where taxes are much higher than here and average income is quite a bit lower. Are short work weeks really worth it?   #1143   Apr 18, '16, 10:26 am Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,704 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Good Tidings I often wonder about how much money is needed, too. I think that once they make a tremendous amount of money the thrill is gone. The next thrill comes from power. They use all that money to gain power. Nothing is ever going to make them completely happy. True for some, but not for all. How about billionaire Tom Monaghan who vowed to "die penniless". He really is keeping his promise. Remember the probably wealthiest Catholic who ever lived in the U.S. (taking inflation into account) was St. Katherine Drexel.   #1144   Apr 18, '16, 10:30 am estesbob Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 48,606 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Sy Noe I have quoted the precise words of a member of the magisterium numerous times. Who did not say it was licit for a Catholic to vote for a pro abortion candidate when a more pro life alternative was available.   #1145   Apr 18, '16, 11:50 am oliver927 Regular Member Join Date: January 8, 2015 Posts: 555 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by Peccavi ... Democratic Socialism is never "imposed" but chosen by the people in the ballot box. Secondly it is democratic.... The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) should be a great place to live then, after all it is "democratic" and maybe not even "imposed" upon the people.   #1146   Apr 18, '16, 11:58 am grotto Join Date: March 22, 2005 Posts: 2,894 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by oliver927 The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) should be a great place to live then, after all it is "democratic" and maybe not even "imposed" upon the people. **************************************** **************************************** ************ Yes - the Bernie Sanders crowds haven't got a clue about much - they probably DO think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (north Korea) means they are a country of freedoms. They only have ONE super delegate - wonder why that is? asks a burner! __________________ "What amazed Edward Winslow during the summer of 1622 was how "reasonable men will be led to reason against their own safety." MAYFLOWER by Nathaniel Philbrick   #1147   Apr 18, '16, 1:03 pm Tomdstone Banned Join Date: January 21, 2013 Posts: 11,614 Religion: other Re: Sanders Thread Quote: Originally Posted by grotto **************************************** **************************************** ************ Yes - the Bernie Sanders crowds haven't got a clue about much - they probably DO think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (north Korea) means they are a country of freedoms. They only have ONE super delegate - wonder why that is? asks a burner! There is a difference between Stalinist communism and a democratic welfare state with a mixed economy.   #1148   Apr 18, '16, 1:30 pm didymus Veteran Member Radio Club Member Join Date: April 5, 2005 Posts: 10,387 Religion: Catholic Re: Sanders Thread Bernie Sanders' Campaign Lawyers Do Not Appreciate Your "Bernie is My Comrade" T-Shirt __________________ It's not hoarding if it's BOOKS.   #1149   Apr 18, '16, 2:01 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by estesbob Who did not say it was licit for a Catholic to vote for a pro abortion candidate when a more pro life alternative was available. Bishop Kicanas speaks on a 'vast array of issues' that a Catholic must consider when choosing who to vote. "Then, preachers can help people to understand the complexity of the moral issues that face our culture and our society. The idea, obviously, is not to support any particular candidate, but helping people to see that the church teaches the dignity of human life from conception to natural death, which involves a vast array of issues important in the community in which we live. It’s important to be able to speak knowledgably about those issues, and then to try to weigh the character of the person who is running for office – looking at the issues they propose, as well as their ability to put those issues into action, into legislation that will make a difference. It’s one thing to hold positions, it’s another thing to be able to get results. I think sometimes that’s discouraging, because people may propose positions that are along the lines of what we hold as a church, in terms of the dignity of human life, but they’re totally ineffective in being able to accomplish anything." Why would he speak on a vast array of issues, when it really just is one issue?   #1150   Apr 18, '16, 2:03 pm Ridgerunner Forum Elder Join Date: September 10, 2006 Posts: 36,704 Religion: Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones Bishop Kicanas speaks on a 'vast array of issues' that a Catholic must consider when choosing who to vote. "Then, preachers can help people to understand the complexity of the moral issues that face our culture and our society. The idea, obviously, is not to support any particular candidate, but helping people to see that the church teaches the dignity of human life from conception to natural death, which involves a vast array of issues important in the community in which we live. It’s important to be able to speak knowledgably about those issues, and then to try to weigh the character of the person who is running for office – looking at the issues they propose, as well as their ability to put those issues into action, into legislation that will make a difference. It’s one thing to hold positions, it’s another thing to be able to get results. I think sometimes that’s discouraging, because people may propose positions that are along the lines of what we hold as a church, in terms of the dignity of human life, but they’re totally ineffective in being able to accomplish anything." Why would he speak on a vast array of issues, when it really just is one issue? When one candidate who supports intrinsic evil and his/her opponent does not, then one cannot vote for the one who does.   #1151   Apr 18, '16, 2:04 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Ridgerunner When one candidate who supports intrinsic evil and his/her opponent does not, then one cannot vote for the one who does. So, if the Republican supports torture and the Democrat does not, then one cannot vote for the Republican?   #1152   Apr 18, '16, 2:14 pm zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Crossbones So, if the Republican supports torture and the Democrat does not, then one cannot vote for the Republican? If the Democrat does not support an intrinsic evil, then yes. Now, if both support such intrinsic evils, then a Christian must look to limit the evil as best possible. If a Democrat supports abortion rights, then a million babies being killed obviously outweighs the support of torture of your mythical GOP candidate.   #1153   Apr 18, '16, 2:28 pm Lily Bernans Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 6,603 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 If the Democrat does not support an intrinsic evil, then yes. Now, if both support such intrinsic evils, then a Christian must look to limit the evil as best possible. If a Democrat supports abortion rights, then a million babies being killed obviously outweighs the support of torture of your mythical GOP candidate. Can you show us a Church document that specifically states that? Specifically. http://ncronline.org/news/politics/y...bernie-sanders   #1154   Apr 18, '16, 2:29 pm Crossbones Regular Member Join Date: November 17, 2013 Posts: 3,822 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by zz912 If the Democrat does not support an intrinsic evil, then yes. Now, if both support such intrinsic evils, then a Christian must look to limit the evil as best possible. If a Democrat supports abortion rights, then a million babies being killed obviously outweighs the support of torture of your mythical GOP candidate. So we're trading intrinsic evils? Your analysis is only correct if the Republican will actually do something. Not so much during the second Bush term. We did get unjust wars and torture though.   #1155   Apr 18, '16, 2:37 pm zz912 Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Posts: 7,484 Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10 Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by Lily Bernans Can you show us a Church document that specifically states that? Specifically. http://ncronline.org/news/politics/y...bernie-sanders You'll get little traction by linking to a heterodox "catholic" website that promotes disobedience to Church teaching. And would you take the word of your relative, Fr. Pavone? http://www.priestsforlife.org/vote/v...conscience.htm 8. Distinguish “choosing evil” from “limiting evil.” What happens if two opposing candidates both support abortion? First of all, refrain from putting any labels or endorsements on anyone. Don't call them anything. Or, if you prefer, call them both pro-abortion. Then just ask a simple question: Which of the two candidates will do less harm to unborn children if elected? For example, is either of the candidates willing at least to ban late-term abortion? Is either of them willing to put up some roadblocks to free and easy abortion? Will either support parental notification, or parental consent, or waiting periods? Has either of them expressed a desire to support pregnancy assistance centers? How about stricter regulation of abortion facilities? Has either candidate expressed support for that idea? Nobody is saying that's the final goal. But ask these questions just to see whether you can see any benefit of one of the candidates above the other. One of the two of them will be elected; there is no question about that. So you are not free right now, in this race, to really choose the candidate you want. Forces beyond your control have already limited your choices. Whichever way the election goes, the one elected will not have the position we want elected officials to have on abortion. In this case, it is morally acceptable to vote for the candidate who will do less harm. This is not "choosing the lesser of two evils." We may never choose evil. But in the case described above, you would not be choosing evil. Why? Because in choosing to limit an evil, you are choosing a good. You oppose the evil of abortion, in every circumstance, no matter what. You know that no law can legitimize even a single abortion, ever. If the candidate thinks some abortion is OK, you don't agree. But by your vote, you can keep the worse person out. And trying to do that is not only legitimate, but good. Some may think it's not the best strategy. But if your question is whether it is morally permissible to vote for the better of two bad candidates, the answer -- in the case described above -- is yes.