Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Again, I believe that Catholics can
interpret the words of Bishop Kicanas and understand his meaning. Let's
review what he says again:
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Where does he say it is licit for a Catholic to vote for pro-abortion
candidate when acpro-life alternative is available? In fact where does
anyone with teaching authority in the Catholic Church say this?
Apr 20, '16, 4:44 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Again, I believe that Catholics can
interpret the words of Bishop Kicanas and understand his meaning. Let's
review what he says again:
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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So how should a Catholic interpret this ?
"No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what's called
the 'right to choice' of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or
the right to a procured abortion,"
"You may in some circumstances where you don't have any candidate who is
proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most
limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify
voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but
believes that it should be available to everyone"
Cardinal Burke
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Apr 20, '16, 4:47 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by sallybutler
Trust me, those businesses that have to
pay sales tax hate their local Franchise Tax Board or Department of
Revenue as much as they hate the IRS. Often more, because (at least in
my experience), the state organizations are more intrusive and harder to
get around than the IRS.
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Agreed. I would much rather have a client audited by the IRS than them have a the sales tax audit
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Apr 20, '16, 4:51 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sallybutler
The ends do not justify the means. That is a teaching of the Church.
Saddam may have tortured many people, but he had nothing to do with
9/11. If anyone did it was Osama Bin Laden or the Saudis. That is what
made it an unjust war. We were not attacked by Saddam.
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Why would the Pope say it was acceptable for Catholic to support
the Iraq war if it were unjust? And what relevance does this have to the
2016 election ?
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Apr 20, '16, 4:53 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Well, he got some delegates, but not
nearly as many as Hillary. She won as big as Trump. Both mostly 60/40.
Trump a little more. He can now reach 1,237, though it's going to be
tough. All Hillary has to do is secure 32% of the remaining votes, and
she will secure 32% of the remaining votes.
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Is that 32% with or without the delegates provided by the Democrat Party House of Lords?
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Apr 20, '16, 5:12 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Why would the Pope say it was acceptable
for Catholic to support the Iraq war if it were unjust? And what
relevance does this have to the 2016 election ?
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Let's look at what Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger said right before the Iraq War.
"No to war" - Pope John Paul II
“War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” - Pope John Paul II
Cardinal Ratzinger also argued that “reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist,” in part because:
"proportion between the possible positive consequences and the sure
negative effect of the conflict was not guaranteed. On the contrary, it
seems clear that the negative consequences will be greater than anything
positive that might be obtained."
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Apr 20, '16, 5:15 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Let's look at what Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger said right before the Iraq War.
"No to war" - Pope John Paul II
“War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations” - Pope John Paul II
Cardinal Ratzinger also argued that “reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist,” in part because:
"proportion between the possible positive consequences and the sure
negative effect of the conflict was not guaranteed. On the contrary, it
seems clear that the negative consequences will be greater than anything
positive that might be obtained."
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This is an excerpt from Archbishop John J. Myers
Quote:
Certainly policies on welfare, national security, the war in Iraq,
Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not
provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate.
Consider, for example, the war in Iraq. Although Pope John Paul II
pleaded for an alternative to the use of military force to meet the
threat posed by Saddam Hussein, he did not bind the conscience of
Catholics to agree with his judgment on the matter, nor did he say that
it would be morally wrong for Catholic soldiers to participate in the
war. In line with the teaching of the catechism on "just war," he
recognized that a final judgment of prudence as to the necessity of
military force rests with statesmen, not with ecclesiastical leaders.
Catholics may, in good conscience, support the use of force in Iraq or
oppose it.
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http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...09-17myers.htm
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Apr 20, '16, 5:21 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
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I think the quotes from Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger
were very clear. I don't see how any Catholic can interpret them as
anything but a call to avoid the Iraq War and certainly time has proven
their wisdom.
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Apr 20, '16, 5:24 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Where does he say it is licit for a
Catholic to vote for pro-abortion candidate when acpro-life alternative
is available? In fact where does anyone with teaching authority in the
Catholic Church say this?
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Well, to answer those questions, I would suggest that you read Faithful Citizenship and consider the words of Bishop Kicanas
Again, I believe that Catholics can interpret the words of Bishop
Kicanas and understand his meaning. Let's review what he says again:
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Apr 20, '16, 6:06 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Well, to answer those questions, I would suggest that you read Faithful Citizenship and consider the words of Bishop Kicanas
Again, I believe that Catholics can interpret the words of Bishop
Kicanas and understand his meaning. Let's review what he says again:
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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So your answer is "he didn't but if you read faithful citizenship
the way I want you to read it you will come to the conclusion that
that's what he meant even though he didn't say it and even though one
can't find a single member of the magisterium who supports my
interpretation ." ?
We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early
Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection
of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched
prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
Archbishop Chaput
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Apr 20, '16, 6:54 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
So your answer is "he didn't but if you
read faithful citizenship the way I want you to read it you will come to
the conclusion that that's what he meant even though he didn't say it
and even though one can't find a single member of the magisterium who
supports my interpretation ." ?
We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early
Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection
of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched
prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
Archbishop Chaput
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I don't think it's nice of you to use Archbishop Chaput's words to
accuse Bishop Kicanas of verbal gymnastics. We can all read the words
of Bishop Kicanas and understand what he's saying.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Apr 20, '16, 6:57 am
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Posts: 6,603
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Re: Sanders Thread
The Iraq War was just a diversionary tactic for Bush. He probably knew
there were no WMD to be found. He certainly had no proof of any because
none were found.
It was an unjust war, and therefore, against the Catholic faith.
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Apr 20, '16, 7:10 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
The Iraq War was just a diversionary
tactic for Bush. He probably knew there were no WMD to be found. He
certainly had no proof of any because none were found.
It was an unjust war, and therefore, against the Catholic faith.
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Ok, the liberation of citizens from a tyrant is unjust? You stand
and accuse that Trump wants to waterboard terrorists but wish saddam was
still in power murdering and torturing. I am confused.
Also, it was well established long before Bush took office that saddam
had wmds. His two son in laws revealed it and they were both executed.
We know many, Including the UN said he had them before Bush took office.
We know clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act for WMDs long before
Bush took office. We know saddam violated at least 17 resolutions
according to the UN. We know what happens when a tyrant is appeased.
Is the world only to react AFTER the tyrant becomes as big as Hitler? Why do you think the League of Nations dissolved?
The world is better off without saddam in it. We will never know how many more murders he would have committed.
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Apr 20, '16, 7:14 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
The Iraq War was just a diversionary
tactic for Bush. He probably knew there were no WMD to be found. He
certainly had no proof of any because none were found.
It was an unjust war, and therefore, against the Catholic faith.
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Bush and other heads of state believed there were WMD. They had
been used by Saddam on his own people. And no one has yet explained what
was in the convoy of trucks leaving Iraq for Syria. I think you are
being too judgment without facts. You are the one with no proof.
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Apr 20, '16, 7:25 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
The Iraq War was just a diversionary
tactic for Bush. He probably knew there were no WMD to be found. He
certainly had no proof of any because none were found.
It was an unjust war, and therefore, against the Catholic faith.
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Have you read what I posted from Archbishop John J. Myers above?
Based on what I have read, when it came to the Iraq war it wouldn't of
happened without congressional approval and the many votes of Democrats
in the House and Senate and the war not have continued for as long as it
did without congressional funding which continued to happen when the
Democrats had a majority in Congress.
Quote:
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The capitulation of the Democratic Party’s congressional leadership to
the Bush administration’s request for nearly $100 billion of
unconditional supplementary government spending, primarily to support
the war in Iraq, has led to outrage throughout the country. In the
Senate, 37 of 49 Democrats voted on May 24 to support the measure. In
the House, while only 86 of the 231 Democratic House members voted for
the supplemental funding, 216 of them voted in favor of an earlier
procedural vote designed to move the funding bill forward even though it
would make the funding bill’s passage inevitable (while giving most of
them a chance to claim they voted against it).
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http://www.fpif.org/articles/the_dem..._for_bushs_war
I also have read that, and I can't find the exact source, that Dennis
Kucinich had a bill to end the war in Afghanistan, 85 Democrats voted
yes, 99 congressional Democrats voted no. Democrats in the House Senate
near-unanimously voted in support of the military force in Afghanistan.
Now she says her vote was a mistake, but the Democratic frontrunner, Hillary Clinton, voted on a bill to go to war in Iraq.
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Apr 20, '16, 7:35 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicKnight3
Ok, the liberation of citizens from a
tyrant is unjust? You stand and accuse that Trump wants to waterboard
terrorists but wish saddam was still in power murdering and torturing. I
am confused.
Also, it was well established long before Bush took office that saddam
had wmds. His two son in laws revealed it and they were both executed.
We know many, Including the UN said he had them before Bush took office.
We know clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act for WMDs long before
Bush took office. We know saddam violated at least 17 resolutions
according to the UN. We know what happens when a tyrant is appeased.
Is the world only to react AFTER the tyrant becomes as big as Hitler? Why do you think the League of Nations dissolved?
The world is better off without saddam in it. We will never know how many more murders he would have committed.
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I agree the world is better off without Saddam Hussein. But Bush used WMD as an excuse.
But why would Bush believe there were WMD when there weren't? And why
would he need an excuse to begin with since Saddam was so evil, and I
agree, he was evil?
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Apr 20, '16, 7:58 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
I don't think it's nice of you to use
Archbishop Chaput's words to accuse Bishop Kicanas of verbal gymnastics.
We can all read the words of Bishop Kicanas and understand what he's
saying.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Where does he say it is licit to vote for a pro-abortion candidate
when there is a pro-life alternative. Please a direct quote, like I
have provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop "means"
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Apr 20, '16, 8:08 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Where does he say it is licit to vote for
a pro-abortion candidate when there is a pro-life alternative. Please a
direct quote, like I have provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop
"means"
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Do you think a voting guide would be necessary if Catholics were to consider one issue only?
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Apr 20, '16, 8:19 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Do you think a voting guide would be necessary if Catholics were to consider one issue only?
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It is not one issue only. You should find out what the Church throughout history has said about socialism.
Which is why I, along with many other catholics are so concerned about this Pope who is clearly about liberation theology.
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Apr 20, '16, 8:22 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicKnight3
It is not one issue only. You should find out what the Church throughout history has said about socialism.
Which is why I, along with many other catholics are so concerned about this Pope who is clearly about liberation theology.
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Sanders doesn't advocate the kind of socialism that the Church
decries. And yes, Pope Francis does seem to be concerned with liberation
theology.
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Apr 20, '16, 9:30 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Where does he say it is licit to vote for
a pro-abortion candidate when there is a pro-life alternative. Please a
direct quote, like I have provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop
"means"
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I would encourage you and others to read the interview and
Faithful Citizenship guide carefully and come to your own conclusions. I
find it clear.
Let me repost a key passage.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Apr 20, '16, 10:36 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
I would encourage you and others to read
the interview and Faithful Citizenship guide carefully and come to your
own conclusions. I find it clear.
Let me repost a key passage.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Apr 20, '16, 11:11 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Do you think a voting guide would be necessary if Catholics were to consider one issue only?
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Yes because other issue come into play when candidates stance on abortion is the same
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Apr 20, '16, 11:12 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
I would encourage you and others to read
the interview and Faithful Citizenship guide carefully and come to your
own conclusions. I find it clear.
Let me repost a key passage.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
|
Where does he say it is licit to vote for a pro-abortion candidate when
there is a pro-life alternative. Please a direct quote, like I have
provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop "means"
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Apr 20, '16, 12:00 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Abyssinia
Based on what I have read, when it came
to the Iraq war it wouldn't of happened without congressional approval
and the many votes of Democrats in the House and Senate and the war not
have continued for as long as it did without congressional funding which
continued to happen when the Democrats had a majority in Congress.
(snip)
Now she says her vote was a mistake, but the Democratic frontrunner, Hillary Clinton, voted on a bill to go to war in Iraq. |
You are right that Democratic support was crucial; however,
Democrats who voted for the war can make the argument that they were
mislead, as were much of the American people, by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld,
Powell et al who distorted or went along with the distortion of the
evidence to present an open and shut case for war. It was Bush/Cheney
who had control of the evidence, and knew that the case for WMD was
flimsy at best. The moral responsibility for the war is primarily
theirs.
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Apr 20, '16, 12:07 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
You are right that Democratic support was
crucial; however, Democrats who voted for the war can make the argument
that they were mislead, as were much of the American people, by Bush,
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell et al who distorted or went along with the
distortion of the evidence to present an open and shut case for war. It
was Bush/Cheney who had control of the evidence, and knew that the case
for WMD was flimsy at best. The moral responsibility for the war is
primarily theirs.
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So, you are just going to ignore the fact that the UN claimed he
violated 17 resolutions, that CLINTON signed the Iraq Liberation Act for
WMDs long before Bush took office?
You going ignore how this country's policy changed post 911 on how to
deal with countries that sponsored terrorism and posed a threat to the
west considering what we saw 19 men do without a gun?
Yeah, there are a lot of things you are ignoring. Along with his two son
in laws who confirmed he had them. They were both executed.
Lot of stuff you are ignoring. Is that deliberate?
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Apr 20, '16, 12:31 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicKnight3
So, you are just going to ignore the fact
that the UN claimed he violated 17 resolutions, that CLINTON signed the
Iraq Liberation Act for WMDs long before Bush took office?
You going ignore how this country's policy changed post 911 on how to
deal with countries that sponsored terrorism and posed a threat to the
west considering what we saw 19 men do without a gun?
Yeah, there are a lot of things you are ignoring. Along with his two son
in laws who confirmed he had them. They were both executed.
Lot of stuff you are ignoring. Is that deliberate?
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I'm ignoring nothing. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, did not
pose an immediate threat to the US and Bush, Cheney et al knew that, yet
chose to misrepresent the facts to the American people. The case for
war was based on the threat of the use of WMDs against the US, not on UN
resolutions violated by Saddam Hussein.
All the rhetoric you use about "countries that sponsored terrorism and
posed a threat to the west" can't obscure the fact that, *unlike al
Qaeda and countries like Saudi Arabia*, Iraq had absolutely no
motivation to sponsor terrorism against the US. Hussein was a terrible
dictator and abused his own people and his neighbors, but he had no
particular grudge against the US like bin Laden did, he was not a
jihadist ideologue like bin Laden, he was a secularist dictator. It's
too bad the pro-war Right doesn't seem to understand or care about facts
like that. Whatever his other faults, even Trump is smart enough to
realize that the Iraq war has been totally discredited.
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Apr 20, '16, 12:42 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
I'm ignoring nothing. Iraq had nothing to
do with 9/11, did not pose an immediate threat to the US and Bush,
Cheney et al knew that, yet chose to misrepresent the facts to the
American people. The case for war was based on the threat of the use of
WMDs against the US, not on UN resolutions violated by Saddam Hussein.
All the rhetoric you use about "countries that sponsored terrorism and
posed a threat to the west" can't obscure the fact that, *unlike al
Qaeda and countries like Saudi Arabia*, Iraq had absolutely no
motivation to sponsor terrorism against the US. Hussein was a terrible
dictator and abused his own people and his neighbors, but he had no
particular grudge against the US like bin Laden did, he was not a
jihadist ideologue like bin Laden, he was a secularist dictator. It's
too bad the pro-war Right doesn't seem to understand or care about facts
like that. Whatever his other faults, even Trump is smart enough to
realize that the Iraq war has been totally discredited.
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Actually, this country's paradigm had shifted (I am explaining
this again) AFTER 911 on how to deal with NATIONS that sponsored
terrorism.
It is NOT an OBSCURE fact. It was an ACTUAL FACT that Iraq sponsored
terrorism and in fact posed a threat to the west. Specifically the US.
You bring bin laden and it has nothing to do with it. Saddam had no grudge against the US? Wow.
I will say it again, and you an DISMISS this fact again if you want.
Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act for WMDs long BEFORE Bush took
office. Which means the democrats promulgated the existence of WMDs.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to
develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.
BTW, you know how much oil this country got from this? Basically
nothing, and before someone brings up the typical Halliburton cliche,
should know that too is an out and out lie.
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Apr 20, '16, 12:48 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
I'm ignoring nothing. Iraq had nothing to
do with 9/11, did not pose an immediate threat to the US and Bush,
Cheney et al knew that, yet chose to misrepresent the facts to the
American people. The case for war was based on the threat of the use of
WMDs against the US, not on UN resolutions violated by Saddam Hussein.
All the rhetoric you use about "countries that sponsored terrorism and
posed a threat to the west" can't obscure the fact that, *unlike al
Qaeda and countries like Saudi Arabia*, Iraq had absolutely no
motivation to sponsor terrorism against the US. Hussein was a terrible
dictator and abused his own people and his neighbors, but he had no
particular grudge against the US like bin Laden did, he was not a
jihadist ideologue like bin Laden, he was a secularist dictator. It's
too bad the pro-war Right doesn't seem to understand or care about facts
like that. Whatever his other faults, even Trump is smart enough to
realize that the Iraq war has been totally discredited.
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Here is what UNSCOM found long before Bush took office.
According to former U.N. inspector David Kay, Iraq spent over $10
billion during the 1980s in an attempt to enrich uranium and build a
nuclear weapon. However, the Agency concludes that as of December, 1998,
"There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its
attempt to produce nuclear weapons," or "that there remains in Iraq any
physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable
nuclear material of any practical significance." However, the IAEA did
find that "Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such
areas as the production of [highly enriched uranium] ... and the
fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon." Despite the
fact that the facilities and nuclear material had been destroyed or
removed, as early as 1996 the IAEA concluded that "the know-how and
expertise acquired by Iraqi scientists and engineers could provide an
adequate base for reconstituting a nuclear-weapons-oriented program."
Therefore, the Commission concluded, "it has not been possible to
verify" Iraq's statements about the extent and nature of its biological
weapons program.
Extensive BW program: Iraq had an extensive BW program from 1973 until
at least 1991. In mid-1995, Iraq admitted that it had weaponized BW
agents, but claimed that the entire BW program had been in "obliterated"
in 1991 and that all BW weapons had been destroyed and all bulk BW
agents had been deactivated. The Commission found, however, that the
evidence produced in support of this claim was not credible, and that
Iraq "retained suitable growth media, BW facilities, production
equipment, teams of expert personnel, and the essential technical
knowledge" after 1991.
Bulk production: In July, 1995, Iraq acknowledged that between
1988 and 1991, it had produced two BW agents in bulk: botulinum toxin
and Bacillus anthracis spores (anthrax). Iraq reported 19,180 liters of
botulinum toxin (10-20 fold concentrated) and 8445 liters of Bacillus
anthracis spores (10 fold concentrated).
UNSCOM found, however, that "bulk warfare agent production appears to be
considerably understated," given the resources available to Iraq's BW
program, including growth media and fermenter capacity. The Commission
said that the production rate of Botulinum toxin could be as much as
double the stated amount, and 3 times greater than that stated for
Bacillus anthracis spores.
Iraq claimed that it unilaterally destroyed more than 7500 liters of the
Botulinum toxin and 3412 liters of Bacillus anthracis spores in 1991;
UNSCOM noted that there was not evidence to support quantities claimed
to be destroyed. The report concludes "the Commission has no confidence
that all bulk agents have been destroyed... and that a BW capability
does not exist in Iraq."
Iraq also claims to have produced lesser quantities of clostridium perfringens spores, ricin, and wheat cover smut.
BW Warheads: Iraq claimed to have produced 25 Al-Hussein missile
warheads and filled them with BW agents. The Commission found that there
was no credible evidence to show that only 25 missiles were produced
and filled. Iraq declared that the 25 missiles were unilaterally
destroyed; the Commission found enough physical evidence to account for
the declared quantities of BW warheads, but the location of the remnants
were inconsistent with Iraq's story.
BW bombs: Iraq declared that 200 R-400 aerial bombs were
manufactured for BW purposes, but acknowledged that the numbers of bombs
filled with particular agents (100 with botulinum toxin, 50 with
bacillus anthracis spores, and 7 with aflatoxin) were "guesses." UNSCOM
did find evidence of the destruction of some BW bombs at the site
declared by Iraq, but found that the remnants account for less than one
third of the bombs Iraq claims to have destroyed. In addition, UNSCOM
found evidence of R-400A bombs carrying BW at an airfield where no BW
weapons were declared.
Aerosol Generators: Iraq developed aerosol generators for the
dispersal of BW agents by modifying helicopter-borne commercial chemical
insecticide disseminators. Although Iraq claimed the devices were
ineffective, UNSCOM received documentation that they were successfully
field tested. Interview evidence suggests that there were 12 devices
produced; none were destroyed by UNSCOM.
Remaining Bacterial Growth Media: UNSCOM determined that there
remained substantial bacterial growth media imported into Iraq which
remains unaccounted for: 460 kg. of casien; 80 kg. of thioglocollate
broth; 520 kg. of yeast extract; and 1100 kg of peptone. The report says
that "the amounts that are 'missing' are significant, and would be
sufficient to produce quantities of agent comparable to that already
declared by Iraq."
http://fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/990125/dis-bio.htm
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Apr 20, '16, 1:01 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
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Apr 20, '16, 1:07 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
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Well, it could have been worse. Rumsfeld might have taken in a
ball game with that murderer, Raul Castro instead of doing a "diplomatic
handshake" with Saddam Hussein.
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Apr 20, '16, 1:12 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
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Another totally irrelevant piece. We were enemies with iran, who
had declared a jihad against America. Totally and complete failure of
Jimmy Carter policies which led to the hostage crisis.
As a result our country had an ally with iraq.
This country made an ally with stalin at one point This country was once enemies with England.
Besides not sure what point is. What, was Bush friends with saddam?
Sigh....
I'm done with this subject. We have went way of topic.
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Apr 20, '16, 1:18 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Where does he say it is licit to vote for
a pro-abortion candidate when there is a pro-life alternative. Please a
direct quote, like I have provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop
"means"
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I'm not offering an opinion at this point on what the Bishop
means, but rather offering so that people can read it and determine for
themselves. It seems clear to me.
Again, here is a key passage, though I recommend reading the entire article as well as the Faithful Citizenship guide.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
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Apr 20, '16, 1:33 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Where does he say it is licit to vote for
a pro-abortion candidate when there is a pro-life alternative. Please a
direct quote, like I have provided , not your opinion on what a Bishop
"means"
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The main problem being there are no pro-life alternatives with Trump and Cruz being so pro-death.
It's more a matter of weighing which candidate one thinks will cause the least amount of carnage.
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1
"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi
"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
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Apr 20, '16, 2:23 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc
The main problem being there are no pro-life alternatives with Trump and Cruz being so pro-death.
It's more a matter of weighing which candidate one thinks will cause the least amount of carnage.
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Not much of a question there. On one side, we have candidates
whose party has enshrined the unrestricted "right" of a woman to kill
her child - something that happens 2000-3000 times every day. On the
other side, we have candidates who support policies that might at some
point in the future cause harm to an undetermined number of people.
Which side is "pro-death"?
In the time it took me to type this, another 8 children were killed.
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Apr 20, '16, 2:47 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey1976
Not much of a question there. On one
side, we have candidates whose party has enshrined the unrestricted
"right" of a woman to kill her child - something that happens 2000-3000
times every day. On the other side, we have candidates who support
policies that might at some point in the future cause harm to an
undetermined number of people.
Which side is "pro-death"?
In the time it took me to type this, another 8 children were killed.
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But who will do the most good for the American people?
And do you really think someone like Ted Cruz can stop abortion on
demand? It's going to be states' rights issue, not one settled by the
Supreme Court. They have already spoken regarding the Constitution.
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Apr 20, '16, 3:07 pm
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Regular Member
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
But who will do the most good for the American people?
And do you really think someone like Ted Cruz can stop abortion on
demand? It's going to be states' rights issue, not one settled by the
Supreme Court. They have already spoken regarding the Constitution.
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Do you not understand that Roe V Wade stripped the rights of the states to vote on the legality of abortion.
Currently states have very limited rights to legislate abortion.
Roe broke down pregnancy in trimesters.
States may not limit abortion in the first trimester. Certain limits may
happen in the second trimester, finally the states may limit abortion
in the third trimester, but it needs to remain legal for life and health
reasons.
Doe v Bolton decided on the same day as Roe that health reasons are so broad that they include financial health.
A pro-life president can limit abortions, such as when partial birth
abortion was made illegal. Congress decided, and President Bush signed
into law.
Mr. Clinton vetoed the partial birth abortion ban bill.
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Apr 20, '16, 3:22 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
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Yes he was an expert. His decision was the dissenting decision in PP vs Casey, though.
When the SCOTUS issues a decision, then the dissenting views are also issued
The states are currently limited to the Roe language.
Alabama might successfully pass the legislation. It will be perhaps
10-15 minutes before the legislation is challenged in court as
unconstitutional.
Pretend that the lower courts agree and it is challenged at the SCOTUS.
Do you think Sanders or Clinton will appoint judges that will agree with
Alabama?
No.
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Apr 20, '16, 3:25 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie Lawrence
Yes he was an expert. His decision was the dissenting decision in PP vs Casey, though.
When the SCOTUS issues a decision, then the dissenting views are also issued
The states are currently limited to the Roe language.
Alabama might successfully pass the legislation. It will be perhaps
10-15 minutes before the legislation is challenged in court as
unconstitutional.
Pretend that the lower courts agree and it is challenged at the SCOTUS.
Do you think Sanders or Clinton will appoint judges that will agree with
Alabama?
No.
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I don't think they know or even care. It was a Republican Supreme
Court that upheld Roe and made abortion legal. It was likewise a
Republican Supreme Court that decided PP v Casey. Abortions have
declined 13% under Obama. Supreme Court justices aren't the puppets of
the presidents who appoint them.
And states can still ban abortion:
http://www.thenation.com/article/how...till-standing/
The laws in Indiana, Nebraska, and Ohio laws are still standing, so I think the Alabama bill, if it passes, will stand.
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Apr 20, '16, 3:55 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I don't think they know or even care. It
was a Republican Supreme Court that upheld Roe and made abortion legal.
It was likewise a Republican Supreme Court that decided PP v Casey.
Abortions have declined 13% under Obama. Supreme Court justices aren't
the puppets of the presidents who appoint them.
And states can still ban abortion:
http://www.thenation.com/article/how...till-standing/
The laws in Indiana, Nebraska, and Ohio laws are still standing, so I think the Alabama bill, if it passes, will stand. |
Abortion is currently legal in Indiana, Nebraska and Ohio.
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Apr 20, '16, 3:55 pm
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Prayer Warrior
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
I'm not offering an opinion at this point
on what the Bishop means, but rather offering so that people can read
it and determine for themselves. It seems clear to me.
Again, here is a key passage, though I recommend reading the entire article as well as the Faithful Citizenship guide.
INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a
Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the
mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go.
Is that right?
BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is
saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have
to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be
able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we
live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is
proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position
on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone
who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote
for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s
contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into
consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.
|
Still waiting for that quote..........
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Apr 20, '16, 4:06 pm
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
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As Catholics we loook to Holy Mother Church for guidance on these
issues Not judges , elected officials or the personal opinion of
internet posters Our Church says we must always oppose abortion and must
never acquiesce to a culture that has legalized it. We have a
responsibility to work to overcome the legalization of this evil and
never vote to empower those who have vowed to keep it legal.
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Apr 20, '16, 4:13 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
But who will do the most good for the American people?
And do you really think someone like Ted Cruz can stop abortion on
demand? It's going to be states' rights issue, not one settled by the
Supreme Court. They have already spoken regarding the Constitution.
|
Which is the greater good: Working to stop the murder of 1 million children per year that's going on right now,
or shutting down coal companies because of the possibility that there
might be some impact to the climate in the future? Passing legislation
to limit the funds going to the single largest provider of abortions, or
raising taxes to pay for Flooty McHooperson's degree in Ancient
Indonesian LGBT Literature? Securing our borders and shoring up our
economy, or continuing to allow unfettered border crossings so that
we'll always have a cheap underclass to exploit for their labor?
The platform of the Democratic Party supports definite evils and damaging practices that are happening now.
The Republican Party platform supports practices that might be
questionable, but also explicitly supports stopping those evils that are
currently happening.
136 US children have died from abortion since my last post.
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Apr 20, '16, 4:14 pm
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Forum Elder
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I don't think they know or even care. It
was a Republican Supreme Court that upheld Roe and made abortion legal.
It was likewise a Republican Supreme Court that decided PP v Casey.
Abortions have declined 13% under Obama. Supreme Court justices aren't
the puppets of the presidents who appoint them.
.
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As you know well, Roe was decided out of the blue by judges that
nobody knew would rule on abortion, let alone in that way. And it was a
generation ago.
More relevant to the present, when it came to partial birth abortion
bans, every Repub justice voted to uphold bans on it. Every Dem
appointee voted against banning partial birth abortions. Even renegade
Kennedy voted against partial birth abortion, but not a single Democrat.
That tells us a lot more about where the parties are now than a decision
made 40+ years ago. Presidents now know very well what their
appointees' views of abortion are, especially the Democrat presidents
because NARAL does the vetting for them.
No Democrat appointee will ever vote to ban abortion, and for 40+ years now, none has.
Nor will any Democrat president appoint any justice who is not pro-abortion.
A vote for a Democrat president is a vote for abortion on demand. No question about it.
Any decline in abortions under Obama is probably due to the increased
use of abortifacients that he wants to make us all pay for, including
the Little Sisters of the Poor. And too, in an aging population, fewer
women become pregnant.
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Apr 20, '16, 4:36 pm
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Senior Member
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Posts: 7,038
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Still waiting for that quote..........
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Ugh. I keep getting notifications of new posts in this thread and I
keep checking in, hoping to find something new. But with few
exceptions, each "new" post isn't new at all -- it's literally the same thing (same point, same language) posted over and over. Please make it stop.
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Apr 20, '16, 4:52 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I don't think they know or even care. It
was a Republican Supreme Court that upheld Roe and made abortion legal.
It was likewise a Republican Supreme Court that decided PP v Casey.
Abortions have declined 13% under Obama. Supreme Court justices aren't
the puppets of the presidents who appoint them.
And states can still ban abortion:
http://www.thenation.com/article/how...till-standing/
The laws in Indiana, Nebraska, and Ohio laws are still standing, so I think the Alabama bill, if it passes, will stand. |
You're overstating what the SCOTUS did in in PP v. Casey.
That decision wasn't a complete carte blanche upholding of Roe.
Roe v. Wade was partially overruled by PP. v. Casey.
PP. v. Casey upheld the "essential holding" of Roe, but the SCOTUS
decision greatly lowered the legal scrutiny standard applied to laws
regulating abortion from a Strict Scrutiny Legal Standard (i.e., a
government law must be necessary to achieve a compelling
government interest), the most stringent standard of judicial review in
Constitutional Law applied to laws affecting Constitutional Fundamental
Rights to a greatly lower form of Constitutional protection called an "undue burden" standard (i.e., if a government law places a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus).
Thus, PP. v. Casey held that abortion is no longer a Constitutional
fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution and partially overruled
Roe.
See, News Media blasts its propaganda nonstop 24/7 + 365 that the
Republican U.S. Supreme Court Justices completely upheld Roe in PP v.
Casey but the Truth is different from the fictional world the handful of
Talking Heads and couple of thousand news writers depict.
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
Last edited by Dwyer; Apr 20, '16 at 5:05 pm.
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Apr 20, '16, 5:47 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: February 26, 2007
Posts: 1,361
Religion: Byzantine Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
To wit:
Quote:
In replacing the trimester framework with the viability framework, the
plurality also replaced the strict scrutiny analysis under Roe, with the
"undue burden" standard previously developed by O'Connor in her
dissent in Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health.[18] A legal
restriction posing an undue burden is one that has "the purpose or
effect of placing a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking
an abortion of a nonviable fetus."[19] An undue burden is found even
where a statute purports to further the interest of potential life or
another valid state interest, if it places a substantial obstacle in the
path of a woman's fundamental right to choice.[20]
In applying this new standard, the plurality overruled City of Akron v.
Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. 416 (1983) and Thornburgh
v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S. 747
(1986),[21] each of which applied "strict scrutiny" to abortion
restrictions.[22]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood_v._Casey#The_undue_bu rden_standard
__________________
"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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Apr 20, '16, 5:56 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Ugh. I keep getting notifications of new
posts in this thread and I keep checking in, hoping to find something
new. But with few exceptions, each "new" post isn't new at all -- it's literally the same thing (same point, same language) posted over and over. Please make it stop.
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Well, it's not like Bernie has any chance of winning, so we might
as well talk about something. Besides, it's important that any newcomers
and lurkers understand that there are a lot of different views on
aspects of Catholic teaching and they need to do their own research
instead of depending on someone's personal interpretation on the
internet.
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Apr 20, '16, 6:05 pm
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Well, it's not like Bernie has any chance
of winning, so we might as well talk about something. Besides, it's
important that any newcomers and lurkers understand that there are a lot
of different views on aspects of Catholic teaching and they need to do
their own research instead of depending on someone's personal
interpretation on the internet.
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Still waiting for that Quote............
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Apr 20, '16, 6:09 pm
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Still waiting for that Quote............
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I would suggest that you read the article at http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm and read what Bishop Kicanas says:
"Then, preachers can help people to understand the complexity of the
moral issues that face our culture and our society. The idea, obviously,
is not to support any particular candidate, but helping people to see
that the church teaches the dignity of human life from conception to
natural death, which involves a vast array of issues important in the
community in which we live. It’s important to be able to speak
knowledgably about those issues, and then to try to weigh the character
of the person who is running for office – looking at the issues they
propose, as well as their ability to put those issues into action, into
legislation that will make a difference. It’s one thing to hold
positions, it’s another thing to be able to get results. I think
sometimes that’s discouraging, because people may propose positions that
are along the lines of what we hold as a church, in terms of the
dignity of human life, but they’re totally ineffective in being able to
accomplish anything."
I'm sure you can understand this without my help.
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Apr 20, '16, 6:11 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: June 25, 2011
Posts: 7,038
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Well, it's not like Bernie has any chance
of winning, so we might as well talk about something. Besides, it's
important that any newcomers and lurkers understand that there are a lot
of different views on aspects of Catholic teaching and they need to do
their own research instead of depending on someone's personal
interpretation on the internet.
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Oh, I wasn't criticizing you, Crossbones. And in general, I agree with your point here.
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Apr 20, '16, 6:12 pm
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Posts: 1,766
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
I would suggest that you read the article at http://www.priestsforlife.org/magist...anas-synod.htm and read what Bishop Kicanas says:
"Then, preachers can help people to understand the complexity of the
moral issues that face our culture and our society. The idea, obviously,
is not to support any particular candidate, but helping people to see
that the church teaches the dignity of human life from conception to
natural death, which involves a vast array of issues important in the
community in which we live. It’s important to be able to speak
knowledgably about those issues, and then to try to weigh the character
of the person who is running for office – looking at the issues they
propose, as well as their ability to put those issues into action, into
legislation that will make a difference. It’s one thing to hold
positions, it’s another thing to be able to get results. I think
sometimes that’s discouraging, because people may propose positions that
are along the lines of what we hold as a church, in terms of the
dignity of human life, but they’re totally ineffective in being able to
accomplish anything."
I'm sure you can understand this without my help. |
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Apr 21, '16, 2:09 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Ugh. I keep getting notifications of new
posts in this thread and I keep checking in, hoping to find something
new. But with few exceptions, each "new" post isn't new at all -- it's literally the same thing (same point, same language) posted over and over. Please make it stop.
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It's always about abortion and the perceived evils of the
Democratic Party and how we can only vote for a pro-life candidate even
if that candidate would destroy every living person in the US.
I don't get email alerts any longer. I couldn't stand to see them in my Inbox any more.
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Apr 21, '16, 2:12 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
You're overstating what the SCOTUS did in in PP v. Casey.
That decision wasn't a complete carte blanche upholding of Roe.
Roe v. Wade was partially overruled by PP. v. Casey.
PP. v. Casey upheld the "essential holding" of Roe, but the SCOTUS
decision greatly lowered the legal scrutiny standard applied to laws
regulating abortion from a Strict Scrutiny Legal Standard (i.e., a
government law must be necessary to achieve a compelling
government interest), the most stringent standard of judicial review in
Constitutional Law applied to laws affecting Constitutional Fundamental
Rights to a greatly lower form of Constitutional protection called an "undue burden" standard (i.e., if a government law places a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus).
Thus, PP. v. Casey held that abortion is no longer a Constitutional
fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution and partially overruled
Roe.
See, News Media blasts its propaganda nonstop 24/7 + 365 that the
Republican U.S. Supreme Court Justices completely upheld Roe in PP v.
Casey but the Truth is different from the fictional world the handful of
Talking Heads and couple of thousand news writers depict.
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I know. That's why I pointed out to Sophie on the previous page
that states do legislate against abortion, and some of those laws do
stick.
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Apr 21, '16, 2:26 am
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Veteran Member
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
It's always about abortion and the
perceived evils of the Democratic Party and how we can only vote for a
pro-life candidate even if that candidate would destroy every living
person in the US.
I don't get email alerts any longer. I couldn't stand to see them in my Inbox any more.
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Which candidate would destroy every living person in the US?
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Apr 21, '16, 2:41 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Which candidate would destroy every living person in the US?
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"If" is conditional.
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Apr 21, '16, 5:45 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey1976
Which is the greater good: Working to stop the murder of 1 million children per year that's going on right now,
or shutting down coal companies because of the possibility that there
might be some impact to the climate in the future? Passing legislation
to limit the funds going to the single largest provider of abortions, or
raising taxes to pay for Flooty McHooperson's degree in Ancient
Indonesian LGBT Literature? Securing our borders and shoring up our
economy, or continuing to allow unfettered border crossings so that
we'll always have a cheap underclass to exploit for their labor?
The platform of the Democratic Party supports definite evils and damaging practices that are happening now.
The Republican Party platform supports practices that might be
questionable, but also explicitly supports stopping those evils that are
currently happening.
136 US children have died from abortion since my last post.
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But it won't make any difference to those who have convinced themselves
that Republicans are going to do all those dastardly things the ultra
liberals says they will do. I maintain that those of us who happen to be
conservative care as much about people after they are born than the
Dems do. We also care about the environment (though we are not fanatics)
and all the other things the libs have conjured up in their minds to
preach to those who are gullible enough to believe them. We just happen
to think that there are better ways to accomplish them. What we are
doing now, on all fronts, is not working.
__________________
Praying for all CAF intentions.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:40 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: September 11, 2009
Posts: 7,484
Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
But who will do the most good for the American people?
And do you really think someone like Ted Cruz can stop abortion on
demand? It's going to be states' rights issue, not one settled by the
Supreme Court. They have already spoken regarding the Constitution.
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A Christian cannot commit evil (supporting pro-abortion politicians) in the hopes that good will come of it.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:43 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz912
A Christian cannot commit evil (supporting pro-abortion politicians) in the hopes that good will come of it.
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That applies to more than abortion.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:44 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: September 11, 2009
Posts: 7,484
Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbones
Well, it's not like Bernie has any chance
of winning, so we might as well talk about something. Besides, it's
important that any newcomers and lurkers understand that there are a lot
of different views on aspects of Catholic teaching and they need to do
their own research instead of depending on someone's personal
interpretation on the internet.
|
There aren't different views on Catholic teaching. There is
Catholic teaching, and there are those who want to ignore it and look
for justifications and excuses for ignoring it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
It's always about abortion and the
perceived evils of the Democratic Party and how we can only vote for a
pro-life candidate even if that candidate would destroy every living
person in the US.
I don't get email alerts any longer. I couldn't stand to see them in my Inbox any more.
|
The evils of the Democratic party are not "perceived". They are
real, they are intrinsic, they are grotesque, and they can't be
supported by Christians.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:46 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz912
The evils of the Democratic party are not
"perceived". They are real, they are intrinsic, they are grotesque, and
they can't be supported by Christians.
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I understand because I see Repubs. the same way.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:53 am
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
That applies to more than abortion.
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And what evils are supported by any of the Candidates are
proportionate enough to allow a Catholic to vote for a candidate who
supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion oo demand?
What we generally see is an attempt to conflate valid political
differences on how to help the poor and needy into to claims that
Republicans are going to end all life on the planet if we dont elect
pro-abortion canddiates
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Apr 21, '16, 6:55 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
And what evils are supported by any of
the Candidates are proportionate enough to allow a Catholic to vote for a
candidate who supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion oo demand?
What we generally see is an attempt to conflate valid political
differences on how to help the poor and needy into to claims that
Republicans are going to end all life on the planet if we dont elect
pro-abortion canddiates
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Asked and answered, Multiple times. By multiple people.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:57 am
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I understand because I see Repubs. the same way.
|
Can you find anything in the Republican party Platform akin to this:
The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and
a woman's right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a
safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and
all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely
personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her
clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the
way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the
number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for
abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman's decision to
have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the
availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy
and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.
Source: 2012 Democratic Party Platform , Sep 4, 2012
Pres. Bush has rejected the calls from Nancy Reagan, Christopher Reeve
& Americans across the land for assistance with embryonic stem cell
research. We will reverse his wrongheaded policy. Stem cell therapy
offers hope to more than 100 million Americans who have serious
illnesses-from Alzheimer’s to heart disease to juvenile diabetes to
Parkinson’s. We will pursue this research under the strictest ethical
guidelines, but we will not walk away from the chance to save lives and
reduce human suffering.
Source: The Democratic Platform for America, p.29 , Jul 10, 2004
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Apr 21, '16, 6:58 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: September 11, 2009
Posts: 7,484
Religion: Catholic Since 4/3/10
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I understand because I see Repubs. the same way.
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Then your perception is flawed. There is nothing in the GOP
platform that is an intrinsic evil, unlike the DNC platform, which
contains several.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:00 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Can you find anything in the Republican party Platform akin to this:
The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and
a woman's right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a
safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and
all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely
personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her
clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the
way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the
number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for
abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman's decision to
have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the
availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy
and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.
Source: 2012 Democratic Party Platform , Sep 4, 2012
Pres. Bush has rejected the calls from Nancy Reagan, Christopher Reeve
& Americans across the land for assistance with embryonic stem cell
research. We will reverse his wrongheaded policy. Stem cell therapy
offers hope to more than 100 million Americans who have serious
illnesses-from Alzheimer’s to heart disease to juvenile diabetes to
Parkinson’s. We will pursue this research under the strictest ethical
guidelines, but we will not walk away from the chance to save lives and
reduce human suffering.
Source: The Democratic Platform for America, p.29 , Jul 10, 2004
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I try to keep away from lies.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:05 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: September 11, 2013
Posts: 683
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
You're overstating what the SCOTUS did in in PP v. Casey.
That decision wasn't a complete carte blanche upholding of Roe.
Roe v. Wade was partially overruled by PP. v. Casey.
PP. v. Casey upheld the "essential holding" of Roe, but the SCOTUS
decision greatly lowered the legal scrutiny standard applied to laws
regulating abortion from a Strict Scrutiny Legal Standard (i.e., a
government law must be necessary to achieve a compelling
government interest), the most stringent standard of judicial review in
Constitutional Law applied to laws affecting Constitutional Fundamental
Rights to a greatly lower form of Constitutional protection called an "undue burden" standard (i.e., if a government law places a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus).
Thus, PP. v. Casey held that abortion is no longer a Constitutional
fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution and partially overruled
Roe.
See, News Media blasts its propaganda nonstop 24/7 + 365 that the
Republican U.S. Supreme Court Justices completely upheld Roe in PP v.
Casey but the Truth is different from the fictional world the handful of
Talking Heads and couple of thousand news writers depict.
|
I don't think that PP vs Casey partially overturned Roe at all.
While Roe v Wade broke pregnancy down into trimesters, PP vs Casey used
viable and non viable. States are not permitted to legislate against
abortion before viability. After viability, the states may enact limits,
but life and health of the mother are to be kept as guidelines. Doe v
Bolton still stands. Psychological health is considered part of maternal
health.
To claim that there are abortion bans in Ohio, Indiana and Nebraska is
not at all true. There are restrictions that are permitted under Roe and
Casey.:
The "restrictions" include things like a 24 hour waiting period, and no state funding to pay for them.
The "procedure" is still legal.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:07 am
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Regular Member
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Posts: 683
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I try to keep away from lies.
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Which lies?
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Apr 21, '16, 7:38 am
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Forum Elder
Prayer Warrior
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Join Date: May 20, 2011
Posts: 21,516
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Wow, look at the video at this link of Bernie Sanders supporters describing Hillary Clinton: https://twitter.com/foxandfriends/st...08284765364224
There's division in the Republican Party, but when Sanders supporters
are describing Clinton like that, the Democrats have got their own
problems potentially getting those people to vote for Clinton if she is
the nominee.
__________________
Human Life International helps to build the culture of life in more than "100 countries". Please help their mission: https://www.hli.org
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Apr 21, '16, 7:40 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie Lawrence
Which lies?
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All of them.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:43 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: September 11, 2013
Posts: 683
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
All of them.
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I don't like lies either, I meant specific to the post you quoted.
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Apr 21, '16, 8:25 am
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: December 5, 2010
Posts: 10,566
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
And what evils are supported by any of
the Candidates are proportionate enough to allow a Catholic to vote for a
candidate who supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion oo demand?
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It is not the evils supports by any pro-life candidates that
provide the proportionate reasons. It is the reasonable expectation that
electing those candidates will not produce any change in the areas you
refer to as most important.
By the way, I am curious about your mention of "taxpayer funded". It
makes me wonder which is more important - that babies are aborted, or
that your taxes get paid to the doctors who do it?
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Apr 21, '16, 8:31 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
It is not the evils supports by any
pro-life candidates that provide the proportionate reasons. It is the
reasonable expectation that electing those candidates will not produce
any change in the areas you refer to as most important.
By the way, I am curious about your mention of "taxpayer funded". It
makes me wonder which is more important - that babies are aborted, or
that your taxes get paid to the doctors who do it?
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Agree.
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Apr 21, '16, 8:36 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: April 25, 2007
Posts: 7,538
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
It's always about abortion and the
perceived evils of the Democratic Party and how we can only vote for a
pro-life candidate even if that candidate would destroy every living
person in the US.
I don't get email alerts any longer. I couldn't stand to see them in my Inbox any more.
|
How do you get rid of the email alerts? I would love to know.
__________________
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you -- Psalm 137
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Apr 21, '16, 8:51 am
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomarin
How do you get rid of the email alerts? I would love to know.
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They are annoying, aren't they?
Go to your Profile. Click on that. Go to the Control Panel. On that, go
to Edit Options. You'll see a place where there is a pull-down menu and
you can select "No email alerts." Select that! 
That will stop new ones. To stop them all, you have to Unsubscribe from the threads you are already subscribed to.
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Apr 21, '16, 8:57 am
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Join Date: May 8, 2005
Posts: 48,606
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafByNiggle
It is not the evils supports by any
pro-life candidates that provide the proportionate reasons. It is the
reasonable expectation that electing those candidates will not produce
any change in the areas you refer to as most important.
By the way, I am curious about your mention of "taxpayer funded". It
makes me wonder which is more important - that babies are aborted, or
that your taxes get paid to the doctors who do it?
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So you cant tell us what these proportionate issues are?
So you think the Church, which vehemently opposes taxpayer funded
abortions, is more concerned about the taxes than they are the child?
There is an easy solution to all this-you follow the teachings of the
Church.
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Apr 21, '16, 9:03 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
So you cant tell us what these proportionate issues are?
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They are different for different people.
Quote:
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So you think the Church, which vehemently opposes taxpayer funded
abortions, is more concerned about the taxes than they are the child?
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I don't think the Church makes a point out of emphasizing the fact
that abortions are taxpayer funded. If abortions were done pro-bono by
doctors without using any taxpayer funds, the Church would be just as
opposed. In any case, it was just a by-the-way observation. Did you feel
your point would not have enough weight without including "taxpayer
funded"?
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Apr 21, '16, 9:33 am
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Senior Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary bobo
He is promising free stuff. Young voters
live in an idealistic world and think what Bernie is promising is
attainable. When they get out from under academic persuasion, and have
to earn their own way, many of them will change their minds.
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My country has single - payer healthcare and government funded
university education at undergraduate level (tuition fees are paid for).
So how can one say that this is "not" attainable?
Single - payer is very much attainable, the only barrier is the vast
opposition to it in the States. The latter might be more tricky and
perhaps unlikely for such a huge country as the US, granted - but to
claim impossibility is missing the mark IMHO.
__________________
With insight into the futility of narrow nationalistic
politics, the countries of Europe which have agreed to delegate
sovereignty to a supranational organism have embarked on a salutary way
- Pope Pius XII (1957)
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Apr 21, '16, 9:40 am
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Posts: 4,540
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vouthon
My country has single - payer healthcare
and government funded university education at undergraduate level
(tuition fees are paid for).
So how can one say that this is "not" attainable?
Single - payer is very much attainable, the only barrier is the vast
opposition to it in the States. The latter might be more tricky and
perhaps unlikely for such a huge country as the US, granted - but to
claim impossibility is missing the mark IMHO.
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how many people are placed on waiting lists in your country?
How are the tuition fees paid for?
If you have single payer health care why do you still have ABORTION? Wouldn't pregnancy be covered?
Sorry, but in the USA, people against abortion would probably have to
pay for abortions, sterilizations, sex changes, all things they don't
WANT to pay for that are not necessary. Oh and add in euthanasia to that
list....
I don't want single payer health care because of the immoral behaviors that would be paid for by MY taxes.
__________________
A Rosary a Day Keeps the Devil Away!
"More souls go to hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason."
- Our Lady of Fatima
Who will speak for those who have no voice?
Life.....what a beautiful choice!
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Apr 21, '16, 10:07 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
So you cant tell us what these proportionate issues are?
So you think the Church, which vehemently opposes taxpayer funded
abortions, is more concerned about the taxes than they are the child?
There is an easy solution to all this-you follow the teachings of the
Church.
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Yup we should all just settle for Trump because abortion.
You go right ahead and elect trump, when his 4 years come up and
abortion still exists, won't you be glad you voted for a guy that did
nothing.
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Apr 21, '16, 10:11 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtauke
Yup we should all just settle for Trump because abortion.
You go right ahead and elect trump, when his 4 years come up and
abortion still exists, won't you be glad you voted for a guy that did
nothing. |
Are the people who voted for Obama glad they voted for a guy that did nothing?
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Apr 21, '16, 10:12 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: November 17, 2013
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtauke
Yup we should all just settle for Trump because abortion.
You go right ahead and elect trump, when his 4 years come up and
abortion still exists, won't you be glad you voted for a guy that did
nothing. |
Interesting point. Bishop Kicanas says that voters should take
into account not just the position of the candidate, but their ability
to address an issue.
"It’s one thing to hold positions, it’s another thing to be able to get results" - Bishop Kicanas
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Apr 21, '16, 10:16 am
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Are the people who voted for Obama glad they voted for a guy that did nothing?
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I'm not sure they'd see him as having done nothing. But, uh, you'd have to ask someone that voted for him.
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Apr 21, '16, 10:43 am
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Forum Elder
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Are the people who voted for Obama glad they voted for a guy that did nothing?
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I don't think you can say he did "nothing".
He turned Iraq over to ISIS and Iran.
he turned Libya over to various terrorist groups, including ISIS affiliates.
He has the U.S. backing competing sides in Syria.
He helped the Muslim Brotherhood take over Egypt.
He forced religious organizations to fund contraceptives and abortifacients.
He sent Peabody Coal into bankruptcy, and lots of coal miners to the unemployment lines.
He has blocked the oil pipeline from Canada.
He has put the army in charge of every river, creek, spring, dry wash and farm pond in America.
He loaned Petrobras of Brazil millions of dollars to develop offshore
oil deposits right after Soros invested heavily in Petrobras.
His regulators imposed TRID, which makes it unbelievably difficult for people to get home loans.
He increased the Medicaid rolls by 17 million people.
He increased health insurance premiums by huge percentages.
he increased taxes.
I wouldn't say that's "nothing". It's all bad, but it's not "nothing".
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Apr 21, '16, 11:39 am
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Forum Elder
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicKnight3
They say it was an unjust war in iraq. I
find it interesting how saddam was this innocent man. Same ones that say
it was unjust mind you are the same ones who claim they are on the side
of the poor and down trodden. The same ones mind you that get all bent
out of shape when America waterboarded 5 terrorists. All involved in
911.
Now, all of a sudden. It seems that many forget or don't believe saddam
tortured many people. Well documented. Many think Booooosh lied about
WMDs and yet clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act for WMDs long before
Booooosh took office.
The UN along with many other nations said the same thing and after
America was attacked on 911, the paradigm shifted on how to deal with
perceived threats from nations that sponsored terrorism. No longer could
we afford to be just reactive. Considering what we saw 19 men do
without a gun.
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Tu quoque is not really a good strategy to use when addressing the
morality of terrorism. The war in Iraq was a disaster on numerous
fronts and has left numerous long lasting problems behind it. It is not
the US's role to say 'them boys there is the bad ones and need taking
out' and run about all over the world wielding a nightstick like a rogue
policeman. Saddam's Iraq was no significant threat to the US as it
stood and if we wish to deal with nations that sponsor terrorism how
then shall we deal with the USA?
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Apr 21, '16, 11:45 am
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Re: Sanders Thread
Hey, Sanders people -- Does Bernie still have a shot to lock up the nomination? If no, then why is he still running?
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Apr 21, '16, 11:46 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: November 17, 2013
Posts: 3,822
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex H
Hey, Sanders people -- Does Bernie still have a shot to lock up the nomination? If no, then why is he still running?
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No and to influence the Democratic Convention.
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Apr 21, '16, 11:49 am
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Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex H
Hey, Sanders people -- Does Bernie still have a shot to lock up the nomination? If no, then why is he still running?
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Waiting to see if Hillary is indicted
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Apr 21, '16, 11:50 am
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Forum Elder
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Re: Bernie Sanders didn't meet Pope Francis. But he had high praise for Catholic social teaching. [CNA]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Tu quoque is not really a good strategy
to use when addressing the morality of terrorism. The war in Iraq was a
disaster on numerous fronts and has left numerous long lasting problems
behind it. It is not the US's role to say 'them boys there is the bad
ones and need taking out' and run about all over the world wielding a
nightstick like a rogue policeman. Saddam's Iraq was no significant
threat to the US as it stood and if we wish to deal with nations that
sponsor terrorism how then shall we deal with the USA?
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The Iraq War became a disaster only when we pulled out. We had it
won. Al Quaeda admitted it and so did Obama. Iraq had a chance, even in
the civil strife. One remembers that Ayatollah Sistani even instructed
Shiites to not only not harm their Sunni neighbors, but to shield them
and help them rebuild if terrorists struck them.
Iraq had a good chance, but Obama threw it away.
Saddam repeatedly broke the truce after Phase I of the war, by strafing
Shiites, gassing Kurds and shooting at American and British planes. He
tried to assassinate Bush I. He paid parents to have their children blow
themselves up to kill Israeli civilians. He started two aggressive
wars, one of them involving dozens of nations.
Saddam might not have posed an imminent threat to any Americans other
than American pilots and former presidents, but he not only posed a
threat to his neighbors, he posed one to his own people as well.
Oh yes, and the last discovery of chemical weapons in Iraq was in 2015.
The one before that was in 2013. I doubt they have found them all even
now.
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Apr 21, '16, 12:44 pm
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Regular Member
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Religion: Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex H
Hey, Sanders people -- Does Bernie still have a shot to lock up the nomination? If no, then why is he still running?
|
Maybe he has a shot, I don't know. I don't buy that it's
impossible for him to win, that's just the Democratic party trying to
reign things in. I assume he is still running because there is a chance.
As of right now, I'm voting for him in the general election regardless
of who gets the nomination. I couldn't care less about unity in the
Democratic party. I don't owe them or the republicans anything.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:39 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Peterson
Maybe he has a shot, I don't know. I
don't buy that it's impossible for him to win, that's just the
Democratic party trying to reign things in. I assume he is still running
because there is a chance.
As of right now, I'm voting for him in the general election regardless
of who gets the nomination. I couldn't care less about unity in the
Democratic party. I don't owe them or the republicans anything.
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I agree that he doesn't have a shot. He is staying in for the
leverage he will have with all the voters he has gotten to perhaps get
some of what he wants in the mix. If that does not happen, I foresee
many of his voters staying home rather than vote for Hillary.
__________________
Praying for all CAF intentions.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:44 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vouthon
My country has single - payer healthcare
and government funded university education at undergraduate level
(tuition fees are paid for).
So how can one say that this is "not" attainable?
Single - payer is very much attainable, the only barrier is the vast
opposition to it in the States. The latter might be more tricky and
perhaps unlikely for such a huge country as the US, granted - but to
claim impossibility is missing the mark IMHO.
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The insurance companies, among others, here always shuts down any
talk of a single-payer system. It would be good for the public, though.
The World Health Organization ranks the UK above the US in quality
health care.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:46 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex H
Hey, Sanders people -- Does Bernie still have a shot to lock up the nomination? If no, then why is he still running?
|
Mathematically, yes, realistically, no. He's running in the hope of that outside chance, I guess.
If Sanders could garner a lot of delegates in the remaining states, he
would have a case to present to the super delegates that they should
leave Hillary's camp and join his because he is more electable. He
probably will garner quite a few votes, but Hillary will probably wrap
things up before the convention, then the super delegates will not
abandon her.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:47 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
Waiting to see if Hillary is indicted
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That's not going to happen. Even the GOP front runner, Trump, doesn't think it will.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:50 pm
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Regular Member
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Posts: 1,690
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Mathematically, yes, realistically, no. He's running in the hope of that outside chance, I guess.
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Lily, I don't think that he does have a chance mathematically He's running on a miracle now. .
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Apr 21, '16, 1:52 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
Lily, I don't think that he does have a chance mathematically He's running on a miracle now. .
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I thought he did have a mathematical chance, but I could be wrong.
If he doesn't then he's just hoping to do well and woo the super
delegates away from Hillary, but I see her winning big in Pennsylvania
and California, so I, too, think realistically, Bernie is out of
miracles.
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Apr 21, '16, 1:57 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 19, 2013
Posts: 1,690
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
I thought he did have a mathematical
chance, but I could be wrong. If he doesn't then he's just hoping to do
well and woo the super delegates away from Hillary, but I see her
winning big in Pennsylvania and California, so I, too, think
realistically, Bernie is out of miracles.
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I agree. Steve Kornaki on MSNBC laid out the best case scenario
for a Sander win and It was glum even before New York. He factored in a
win there and still couldn't take the nomination. With the loss, it's
even worse.
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Apr 21, '16, 2:00 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
I agree. Steve Kornaki on MSNBC laid out
the best case scenario for a Sander win and It was glum even before New
York. He factored in a win there and still couldn't take the nomination.
With the loss, it's even worse.
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Even with a win? Wow! That is glum for Bernie. I saw him on the
news when he returned to Vermont after the New York primary, and he did
not look at all happy. I was sort of surprised to see him in
Pennsylvania the next day.
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Apr 21, '16, 2:06 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: December 19, 2013
Posts: 1,690
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Even with a win? Wow! That is glum for
Bernie. I saw him on the news when he returned to Vermont after the New
York primary, and he did not look at all happy. I was sort of surprised
to see him in Pennsylvania the next day.
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I don't think his run has been wasted. He will be a strong voice
in the Senate. If the Republicans put up Trump or Cruz there is a good
chance to take the Senate back. Maybe between him and Elizabeth Warren
some much needed discussions will be taking place.
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Apr 21, '16, 2:31 pm
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Senior Member
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Posts: 7,038
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
I don't think his run has been wasted. He
will be a strong voice in the Senate. If the Republicans put up Trump
or Cruz there is a good chance to take the Senate back. Maybe between
him and Elizabeth Warren some much needed discussions will be taking
place.
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Yes, and perhaps we're getting a glimpse of what the Democratic
party will look like in the future. Now that Bernie has drawn attention
to the issues he's addressed, I don't think that genie is going back in
the bottle. Bernie's legacy will be his outspokenness about such topics
-- and his followers don't want to shut down these conversations in the
future.
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Apr 21, '16, 3:11 pm
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Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 6,603
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Tidings
I don't think his run has been wasted. He
will be a strong voice in the Senate. If the Republicans put up Trump
or Cruz there is a good chance to take the Senate back. Maybe between
him and Elizabeth Warren some much needed discussions will be taking
place.
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I think both Sanders and Trump have served a good purpose. They've
shown Washington that the public is sick and tired of being ignored at
the expense of "insiders." If an outsider doesn't win this year, and I
guess the only real outsider is Trump, then I think an outsider will
have a good chance in the next election. Both Sanders and Trump are
exposing many defects in both parties and sending a message to
Washington to "clean up its act."
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Apr 21, '16, 3:51 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
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I am glad that Sanders lost again. We Americans do not want to live under socialism.
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Apr 21, '16, 4:31 pm
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Senior Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
I am glad that Sanders lost again. We Americans do not want to live under socialism.
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Speak for yourself. We're already living with some elements of
socialism, and Sanders' brand of it? Yes, please -- I'll gladly have a
big helping of that.
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Apr 21, '16, 4:45 pm
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Forum Elder
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by gracepoole
Speak for yourself. We're already living
with some elements of socialism, and Sanders' brand of it? Yes, please
-- I'll gladly have a big helping of that.
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If you'll pardon me, I don't want to be forced to pay for that
helping. I'm not ever going to be in Sanders' 90% tax bracket, but
neither do I believe he would limit himself to taxing the truly rich.
That's not where the money is. The big money is in the middle class
because of the numbers and because it's very difficult for us to legally
avoid paying on 100% of our resource gains.
Seems to me we have plenty enough socialism right now. What we really
need are jobs, but the harassment of the middle class, particularly of
small business that create most of the jobs, stifles job creation.
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Apr 21, '16, 4:51 pm
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Senior Member
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Posts: 7,038
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
If you'll pardon me, I don't want to be
forced to pay for that helping. I'm not ever going to be in Sanders' 90%
tax bracket, but neither do I believe he would limit himself to taxing
the truly rich. That's not where the money is. The big money is in the
middle class because of the numbers and because it's very difficult for
us to legally avoid paying on 100% of our resource gains.
Seems to me we have plenty enough socialism right now. What we really
need are jobs, but the harassment of the middle class, particularly of
small business that create most of the jobs, stifles job creation.
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Happy to pardon you.
I simply hate it when people reference "we Americans" and make grand
generalizations about all of us. Clearly we don't all share the same
views. If we did, I imagine this election would be far more pleasant.
(And for what it's worth, I don't have a problem with my taxes going up
to help pay for social programs. But then, I'm not a Republican)
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Apr 21, '16, 5:02 pm
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Veteran Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
I am glad that Sanders lost again. We Americans do not want to live under socialism.
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How would we live under socialism if Bernie does not have any socialist policies?
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Apr 21, '16, 6:24 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
How would we live under socialism if Bernie does not have any socialist policies?
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He has plenty of socialist policies. That is why he calls himself a socialist.
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Apr 21, '16, 6:58 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
He has plenty of socialist policies. That is why he calls himself a socialist.
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Then how come you can never tell me one of his socialist policies?
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Apr 21, '16, 7:01 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Then how come you can never tell me one of his socialist policies?
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I am explaining it right now. He wants to give more power to the
proletariat over the bourgeoisie. That is his general philosophy.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:03 pm
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
I am explaining it right now. He wants to
give more power to the proletariat over the bourgeoisie. That is his
general philosophy.
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What specific policy does this?
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Apr 21, '16, 7:06 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
What specific policy does this?
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The policy of going against Wall Street.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:08 pm
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Veteran Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
The policy of going against Wall Street.
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There is nothing in Church teaching against that.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:12 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
There is nothing in Church teaching against that.
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He also has the socialist policy of going against religious freedom in the name of the new order.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:14 pm
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Veteran Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
He also has the socialist policy of going against religious freedom in the name of the new order.
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What specific policy has he proposed?
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Apr 21, '16, 7:16 pm
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Banned
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
What specific policy has he proposed?
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He said he will veto any bill that protects religious freedom because of the LGBT agenda.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:18 pm
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Veteran Member
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph3
He said he will veto any bill that protects religious freedom because of the LGBT agenda.
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How is that different than what Hillary would do? You said she is not a socialist.
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Apr 21, '16, 7:20 pm
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Posts: 2,137
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
How is that different than what Hillary would do? You said she is not a socialist.
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I assume that Hillary would do the same thing, but Sanders is trying to topple the old traditions in the name of socialism.
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Apr 21, '16, 8:41 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: October 5, 2015
Posts: 623
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Mathematically, yes, realistically, no. He's running in the hope of that outside chance, I guess.
If Sanders could garner a lot of delegates in the remaining states, he
would have a case to present to the super delegates that they should
leave Hillary's camp and join his because he is more electable. He
probably will garner quite a few votes, but Hillary will probably wrap
things up before the convention, then the super delegates will not
abandon her.
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Well, forgive me for saying this but I am not particularly
enthused about Hillary Clinton. I see no upside to voting for her. I
don't really think any of her policies will change a thing in this
country.
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Apr 21, '16, 9:19 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,022
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner
If you'll pardon me, I don't want to be
forced to pay for that helping. I'm not ever going to be in Sanders' 90%
tax bracket, but neither do I believe he would limit himself to taxing
the truly rich. That's not where the money is. The big money is in the
middle class because of the numbers and because it's very difficult for
us to legally avoid paying on 100% of our resource gains.
Seems to me we have plenty enough socialism right now. What we really
need are jobs, but the harassment of the middle class, particularly of
small business that create most of the jobs, stifles job creation.
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I don't think some people understand marginal tax rates. Even if
the marginal tax rate was 90%, it does not mean someone making $400,000
would pay 90% of it or $360,000 in tax. It goes in steps and levels. The
90% would only apply to an upper portion or amount of income. Not the
entire income. And as you indicated many wouldn't even reach such a
portion level.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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Apr 21, '16, 9:27 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: October 7, 2013
Posts: 8,022
Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith
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Re: Sanders Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Bernans
Even with a win? Wow! That is glum for
Bernie. I saw him on the news when he returned to Vermont after the New
York primary, and he did not look at all happy. I was sort of surprised
to see him in Pennsylvania the next day.
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My indication is Bernie might just simply want his supporters who
haven't gone to the polls yet to see him raising his/their issues while
they still have the opportunity to vote for him and their causes.
__________________
"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it
is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."
"The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong."
(Pope Francis)
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