Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
[ Edited ]11-22-2011 09:14 AM - last edited on 11-22-2011 09:15 AM
But from the beginning of the current term a grim and disturbing drama has been played out instead in the busy street outside the school gates in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh.
As the children and their mothers make their way home, intimidating pickets of ultra-orthodox Jewish men have been waiting for them a little way up the street - some, say the families, have thrown stones and tomatoes and faeces as they have tried to pass.
At the peak of the protests the scenes were shocking and intimidating, with a baying cacophony of shouted insults reaching a climax as the small family groups tried to find a way along the pavement.
The ultra-orthodox protesters - all men - are a striking sight. Bearded and with their hair in long, wispy ringlets they are dressed in long overcoats and black, broad-brimmed Homburg hats.
It is a traditional costume with its roots deep in the past, but the insults the men shout are about how they think their neighbours should be living now, in modern Israel.
There are taunts about sluttishness and immorality - and cries that the girls are "defiling the neighbourhood". These are, unbelievably, references to how girls aged between six and 12 are dressed to attend a religious elementary school.
Includes BBC News Video coverage:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239538
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We tend to think that the desire to control the manner in which others dress is confined to religions and religious societies.
However, such controls also appear in secular societies and secular institutions as well.
There are extremists on both sides of the non-religious / religious divide.
This news story is an example of religious extremists trying to force their will upon others.
As the children and their mothers make their way home, intimidating pickets of ultra-orthodox Jewish men have been waiting for them a little way up the street - some, say the families, have thrown stones and tomatoes and faeces as they have tried to pass.
Ultra-orthodox protesters say the school children are "defiling" their neighbourhood
At the peak of the protests the scenes were shocking and intimidating, with a baying cacophony of shouted insults reaching a climax as the small family groups tried to find a way along the pavement.
The ultra-orthodox protesters - all men - are a striking sight. Bearded and with their hair in long, wispy ringlets they are dressed in long overcoats and black, broad-brimmed Homburg hats.
It is a traditional costume with its roots deep in the past, but the insults the men shout are about how they think their neighbours should be living now, in modern Israel.
There are taunts about sluttishness and immorality - and cries that the girls are "defiling the neighbourhood". These are, unbelievably, references to how girls aged between six and 12 are dressed to attend a religious elementary school.
Includes BBC News Video coverage:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239538
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We tend to think that the desire to control the manner in which others dress is confined to religions and religious societies.
However, such controls also appear in secular societies and secular institutions as well.
There are extremists on both sides of the non-religious / religious divide.
This news story is an example of religious extremists trying to force their will upon others.
"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake . . ."
--George Washington's Farewell Address
--George Washington's Farewell Address
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
11-22-2011 10:04 AM
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
[ Edited ]11-22-2011 10:18 AM - last edited on 11-22-2011 10:50 AM
As I have stated on other threads dealing with MEN who have "issues" with the mode of female attire and their "supposedly alluring" body parts - the "flaw" is within the beholder, not the targeted female.
"Religion" used as justification for repression of females is just a cover for the deeper psychological problems these men obviously have.
The really sad part is that many theocratic societies let these men get away with their sick behavior and even institutionalize it as "law" - and the secular societies who unwittingly abet such behavior are only empowering and embolding the religious extremists to further a questionable agenda.
"Religion" used as justification for repression of females is just a cover for the deeper psychological problems these men obviously have.
The really sad part is that many theocratic societies let these men get away with their sick behavior and even institutionalize it as "law" - and the secular societies who unwittingly abet such behavior are only empowering and embolding the religious extremists to further a questionable agenda.
"The future, according to some economists, will be exactly like the past only more expensive." John Sladek
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
11-22-2011 11:11 AM
You can give support to someone who is trying to stand up for themself but you can not force them to stand up. Where are Muslim women protesting, or asking for support?
dimsum2 wrote:
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
11-22-2011 11:18 AM
Snapdrgn - their "voices" are muted but are there, and many have been imprisoned or have died at the hands of the "enforcers" of these twisted, so-called "religious laws."
Punishment of the weak is but one sure way to "keep them in their place."
Google "Muslim women speak out"+punishment+imprisonment ... you'd be surprised...
Snapdrgn22 wrote:
You can give support to someone who is trying to stand up for themself but you can not force them to stand up. Where are Muslim women protesting, or asking for support?
dimsum2 wrote:
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
"The future, according to some economists, will be exactly like the past only more expensive." John Sladek
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
11-22-2011 12:39 PM
Religous fanatics are well fanatics no matter what their creed. I consider myself a Jew and these folks would conisder me an apostate. Tough.
Gutsky wrote:
But from the beginning of the current term a grim and disturbing drama has been played out instead in the busy street outside the school gates in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh.
As the children and their mothers make their way home, intimidating pickets of ultra-orthodox Jewish men have been waiting for them a little way up the street - some, say the families, have thrown stones and tomatoes and faeces as they have tried to pass.
Ultra-orthodox protesters say the school children are "defiling" their neighbourhood
At the peak of the protests the scenes were shocking and intimidating, with a baying cacophony of shouted insults reaching a climax as the small family groups tried to find a way along the pavement.
The ultra-orthodox protesters - all men - are a striking sight. Bearded and with their hair in long, wispy ringlets they are dressed in long overcoats and black, broad-brimmed Homburg hats.
It is a traditional costume with its roots deep in the past, but the insults the men shout are about how they think their neighbours should be living now, in modern Israel.
There are taunts about sluttishness and immorality - and cries that the girls are "defiling the neighbourhood". These are, unbelievably, references to how girls aged between six and 12 are dressed to attend a religious elementary school.
Includes BBC News Video coverage:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15239538
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We tend to think that the desire to control the manner in which others dress is confined to religions and religious societies.
However, such controls also appear in secular societies and secular institutions as well.
There are extremists on both sides of the non-religious / religious divide.
This news story is an example of religious extremists trying to force their will upon others.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
[ New ]11-22-2011 01:32 PM - last edited on 11-22-2011 01:33 PM
dimsum2 wrote:
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
If you can't find one of those here, you must be blind.
ED: I take that back, my friend can find them just fine. Willful ignorance is the only explanation.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
[ New ]11-22-2011 01:40 PM
One of the most elusive things to define in behavioral sciences is human nature. Ironically, it is easy to demonstrate. Have someone hold their hand up and then press your palm against them. The harder you push the harder they'll push back. We may not be able to define human nature yet we do know what it is when we see it. When you are pushed... You push back.
It is that tendency that has given rise to ultra-conservatism all around the world. It is helping produce radicals in religion and politics and even finance. What good is all that pent up rage and anger if you don't have someone to direct it towards? So the Radical Muslims hate the western infidels. The Jews blame the radicals in Palestine. Americans blame all Muslims. Christians blame Christians who aren't Christian enough. That is mirrored in the Muslim communities and in the Jewish communities. Woven throughout this mess is a resurgence of misogynistic oppression. Don't cover your face, go to the wrong school, or talk to the wrong guy and you could get acid thrown in your face. We have people spitting and swearing at women in this country for wanting to reserve the right to decide what happens to their own bodies. By the looks of this article, Orthodox Jewish girls wearing conservative clothing have now offended the Ultra conservative Orthodox Jews so much that they're being pelted with eggs, feces, and rocks.
In our paranoid quest to look over each other's fences and assure ourselves that we are okay because we can force everyone to follow our opinions, we've pushed, they've pushed, we've pushed harder, they've pushed harder...
Peace? Tolerance? It has to begin somewhere.
"Judge not, lest you be judged."
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
"Love your enemy."
"If you are not received well, shake the dust from your sandals and move on."
There's a bunch more I could add. I won't. All I will add is that we need to separate our agenda from the intent and inspiration of the word.
It begins with one person saying, "Let it begin with me."
It is that tendency that has given rise to ultra-conservatism all around the world. It is helping produce radicals in religion and politics and even finance. What good is all that pent up rage and anger if you don't have someone to direct it towards? So the Radical Muslims hate the western infidels. The Jews blame the radicals in Palestine. Americans blame all Muslims. Christians blame Christians who aren't Christian enough. That is mirrored in the Muslim communities and in the Jewish communities. Woven throughout this mess is a resurgence of misogynistic oppression. Don't cover your face, go to the wrong school, or talk to the wrong guy and you could get acid thrown in your face. We have people spitting and swearing at women in this country for wanting to reserve the right to decide what happens to their own bodies. By the looks of this article, Orthodox Jewish girls wearing conservative clothing have now offended the Ultra conservative Orthodox Jews so much that they're being pelted with eggs, feces, and rocks.
In our paranoid quest to look over each other's fences and assure ourselves that we are okay because we can force everyone to follow our opinions, we've pushed, they've pushed, we've pushed harder, they've pushed harder...
Peace? Tolerance? It has to begin somewhere.
"Judge not, lest you be judged."
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
"Love your enemy."
"If you are not received well, shake the dust from your sandals and move on."
There's a bunch more I could add. I won't. All I will add is that we need to separate our agenda from the intent and inspiration of the word.
It begins with one person saying, "Let it begin with me."
"You cannot negotiate with people who say 'what's mine is mine, and what's yours is negotiable." -- President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
.
.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
[ New ]11-22-2011 03:21 PM
IN the cemetery
Snapdrgn22 wrote:
You can give support to someone who is trying to stand up for themself but you can not force them to stand up. Where are Muslim women protesting, or asking for support?
dimsum2 wrote:
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-22-2011 06:54 PM
I don't understand what the orthodox think is "modest" clothing. The ladies looked perfectly modest to me. On the other hand, it's an internal issue and I'll let the Jews work it out. I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere is still concerned with modesty. It's a lost virtue in the West.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-22-2011 10:14 PM
maximillian wrote:
I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere is still concerned with modesty. It's a lost virtue in the West.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-22-2011 11:45 PM
NOW is mostly a US organization. Most of us don't have the means to fly to other countries to protest woman's rights. NOW made changes to THIS countries laws by banding together.
SimplyOneAmerican wrote:
Snapdrgn - their "voices" are muted but are there, and many have been imprisoned or have died at the hands of the "enforcers" of these twisted, so-called "religious laws."
Punishment of the weak is but one sure way to "keep them in their place."
Google "Muslim women speak out"+punishment+imprisonment ... you'd be surprised...
Snapdrgn22 wrote:
You can give support to someone who is trying to stand up for themself but you can not force them to stand up. Where are Muslim women protesting, or asking for support?
dimsum2 wrote:
Where's the article dissing how Muslims force their girls to dress or they kill them.
While I find this type of behavior disturbing, I also find it disturbing that NOW doesn't stand up for Muslim women in this country.
I also need to hear from another source because I find there is an increasing anti-Jewish sentiment around the world who would be happy to stir up trouble.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 12:05 AM
It's not our business. We have more pressing issues at home. Vote Conservative!!! Build a strong America.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein
― Albert Einstein
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 03:16 AM
How UTTERLY predictable.
malphilos wrote:
maximillian wrote:
I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere is still concerned with modesty. It's a lost virtue in the West.
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11-23-2011 08:41 AM
And acutely poignant.
maximillian wrote:
How UTTERLY predictable.
malphilos wrote:
maximillian wrote:
I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere is still concerned with modesty. It's a lost virtue in the West.
It's not what you don't know that can hurt you, it's what you do know that just ain't so.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 08:52 AM
maximillian wrote:
How UTTERLY predictable.
malphilos wrote:
maximillian wrote:
I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere is still concerned with modesty. It's a lost virtue in the West.
And UTTERLY accurate.
Old men are always tried to control women.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 10:22 AM
I believe that a more than a few posters here are missing the point of this matter of "control."
When women are so severely repressed by any means in any society, that society is fated to the whims of backward and barbaric ideologies... Society cannot move forward when 1/2 of its population is silenced and restrained by arbitrary, cruel, and questionable "laws" that designate them to second class status by virtue of their gender.
By controlling females, viewing females as somehow "inferior" and subjecting females to "laws" designed to "keep them in their proper place" (meaning below men in importance in societal ranking and thus the decision making process) , these particular societies will never progess in achieving peace and harmony...
Witness the Middle East countries that practice these "laws" that subjugate women to such arbitrary rules regarding dress, activities (allowed to men and not women), and non-participation in governing...
While Israel may not actually condone the harrassing tactics of the ultra-orthodox toward the rest of the Jewish (and Palestinian) population, the fact of the matter is that in this region of the world, the "ultra religious" demonstrate time and time again their inability to accept anything or anyone who doesn't reflect their values, their beliefs and their worldviews.
Thus, there can never be peace or compromise among the "tribes" inhabiting the region.
Get it now? Repression is pointedly obstructive - repression of females, in particular, is destructive to the progress of mankind toward higher societal goals.
When women are so severely repressed by any means in any society, that society is fated to the whims of backward and barbaric ideologies... Society cannot move forward when 1/2 of its population is silenced and restrained by arbitrary, cruel, and questionable "laws" that designate them to second class status by virtue of their gender.
By controlling females, viewing females as somehow "inferior" and subjecting females to "laws" designed to "keep them in their proper place" (meaning below men in importance in societal ranking and thus the decision making process) , these particular societies will never progess in achieving peace and harmony...
Witness the Middle East countries that practice these "laws" that subjugate women to such arbitrary rules regarding dress, activities (allowed to men and not women), and non-participation in governing...
While Israel may not actually condone the harrassing tactics of the ultra-orthodox toward the rest of the Jewish (and Palestinian) population, the fact of the matter is that in this region of the world, the "ultra religious" demonstrate time and time again their inability to accept anything or anyone who doesn't reflect their values, their beliefs and their worldviews.
Thus, there can never be peace or compromise among the "tribes" inhabiting the region.
Get it now? Repression is pointedly obstructive - repression of females, in particular, is destructive to the progress of mankind toward higher societal goals.
"The future, according to some economists, will be exactly like the past only more expensive." John Sladek
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 10:44 AM
Bubba Logic Says,
I find the sexual objectification of children to be one of the most insidious forms of socialization regardless if it comes from those who object to it irrationally, as Orthodox Jews, Muslim Extremists, Christian Fundamentalists, or even the other side of the equation by the liberals who wish to believe that it should not, or does not matter, how a child or even a grown woman dresses.
The fact is that in every form of human behavior, there are subjective judgments that are made by those observing the behavior, and consequences to individual choices to behave in a manner that invites those subjective judgments to be made.
Since one can go into any strip bar in this nation and find a stripper dressed in a "school-girls uniform", or go to any "red light district" and find common street prostitutes in the same attire, one has to wonder why anyone would allow their adolescent child to dress in a fashion that approximates the same dress, and then act surprised when the same men who frequent such establishments react in an all to predicable fashion, albeit inappropriate.
This is also not a uniquely male phenomena, as the quid essential male stripper is either dressed as a police officer or a fire fighter, and one of the most dominate female sexual stereotypes of today is a middle aged woman preying on an inexperienced and much younger male.
Can we please go back to letting kids be kids, for as long as possible, and certainly much longer than we allow them to be today. and if that entails making the clothing choices a little less provocative, and a little less easily associated with adult sexuality, then where would be the harm.
Not endorsing Burqua's, just something other than what is all to often associated with sexuality.......and guys, pull your pants up because I have yet to meet any woman, of any age, that finds it attractive to see you walking around with your underwear showing and it makes you look like someones " jail house "B" ".
.
I find the sexual objectification of children to be one of the most insidious forms of socialization regardless if it comes from those who object to it irrationally, as Orthodox Jews, Muslim Extremists, Christian Fundamentalists, or even the other side of the equation by the liberals who wish to believe that it should not, or does not matter, how a child or even a grown woman dresses.
The fact is that in every form of human behavior, there are subjective judgments that are made by those observing the behavior, and consequences to individual choices to behave in a manner that invites those subjective judgments to be made.
Since one can go into any strip bar in this nation and find a stripper dressed in a "school-girls uniform", or go to any "red light district" and find common street prostitutes in the same attire, one has to wonder why anyone would allow their adolescent child to dress in a fashion that approximates the same dress, and then act surprised when the same men who frequent such establishments react in an all to predicable fashion, albeit inappropriate.
This is also not a uniquely male phenomena, as the quid essential male stripper is either dressed as a police officer or a fire fighter, and one of the most dominate female sexual stereotypes of today is a middle aged woman preying on an inexperienced and much younger male.
Can we please go back to letting kids be kids, for as long as possible, and certainly much longer than we allow them to be today. and if that entails making the clothing choices a little less provocative, and a little less easily associated with adult sexuality, then where would be the harm.
Not endorsing Burqua's, just something other than what is all to often associated with sexuality.......and guys, pull your pants up because I have yet to meet any woman, of any age, that finds it attractive to see you walking around with your underwear showing and it makes you look like someones " jail house "B" ".
.
Re: Ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest Schoolgirl's 'Immodest' Dress
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11-23-2011 11:03 AM
BubbaLogic
You state very poignantly the "problem" of sexualization of children through modes of dress, and I would guess since man first emerged from the caves there has been this tug of war between man's primal urges and what constitutes "normal, demure and proper" fashion for his counterpart - the female...
However, and I say this with sincere conviction, men have traditionally subjugated females because rather than truly "regulating" their own behaviors, they find it easier to blame and control the object of their desires instead of blaming and controlling themselves.
Even prostitutes can be "raped."
It's all about power, my friend.
You state very poignantly the "problem" of sexualization of children through modes of dress, and I would guess since man first emerged from the caves there has been this tug of war between man's primal urges and what constitutes "normal, demure and proper" fashion for his counterpart - the female...
However, and I say this with sincere conviction, men have traditionally subjugated females because rather than truly "regulating" their own behaviors, they find it easier to blame and control the object of their desires instead of blaming and controlling themselves.
Even prostitutes can be "raped."
It's all about power, my friend.
"The future, according to some economists, will be exactly like the past only more expensive." John Sladek
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