Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate

Oct 4, '16, 5:25 am

_Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic

Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: The vice presidential nominees are just a few hours from the most important performances of their careers. Democrat Tim Kaine and Republican Mike Pence are under no illusions. The debate at the Longwood University in Virginia is a proxy war for the top of the ticket, and so the pressure is on. http://news.sky.com/story/mike-pence...ebate-10604824

#2   Oct 4, '16, 7:37 am

DaveBj Veteran Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 10,651 Religion: Catholic, Tiber Swim Team Class of 2005

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I will be practicing for my euphonium recital. With the TV off. __________________ Author of The Children of the Maker, Kindle Edition

#3   Oct 4, '16, 7:38 am

Beryllos Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2013 Posts: 7,040 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Hopefully they will say something new.

#4   Oct 4, '16, 7:51 am

qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I'm looking forward to it. I'd like to see what kind of questions they will be asked. I expect life issues to be discussed. __________________ Christine

#5   Oct 4, '16, 8:18 am

Stephen says Regular Member Join Date: July 29, 2014 Posts: 737 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Got my bottle of scotch on standby http://www.debatedrinking.com/ __________________

#6   Oct 4, '16, 8:38 am

mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,620 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen says Got my bottle of scotch on standby http://www.debatedrinking.com/ You'll probably need it. __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.

#7   Oct 4, '16, 8:41 am

Upgrade25 Regular Member Join Date: November 5, 2015 Posts: 912 Religion: Latin Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by DaveBj I will be practicing for my euphonium recital. With the TV off. I might check out a commentary a certain website is doing. If I say it I'll get banned though. __________________ Domine Iesu Christe, Filii Dei, miserere me, peccatoris.

#8   Oct 4, '16, 11:54 am

chero23 Forum Master Join Date: November 12, 2012 Posts: 15,737 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Stephen says Got my bottle of scotch on standby http://www.debatedrinking.com/ Without stepping aside from the important topic at hand, what type of Scotch do you like? The one that I like the most was Macallan 18 year __________________ Check out my Catholic Apologetic Booklet. 121 themes/doctrines, 5,200 Bible Verses, 192 pages. English https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2TE...bFU/edit?pli=1 Spanish https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2TE...M2c/edit?pli=1 Let others know about my booklet.

#9   Oct 4, '16, 11:56 am

7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,861 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate looking forward to the debates. I think Pence is a solid guy. looking forward to hearing more from him. if Trump/Pence wins, I would have no problem with Pence becoming president if Trump was unable to continue because of sickness or something worse. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139

#10   Oct 4, '16, 12:06 pm

signit Regular Member Join Date: October 26, 2006 Posts: 1,520 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Should be an interesting debate, I'll agree, but the experts think it won't be a game-changer unless one or the other of them says something really controversial.

#11   Oct 4, '16, 12:48 pm

Padres1969 Regular Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 5,291 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by signit Should be an interesting debate, I'll agree, but the experts think it won't be a game-changer unless one or the other of them says something really controversial. Exactly. It's the VP debate. Neither man is really all that important in the grand scheme unless something happens to the President.

#12   Oct 4, '16, 3:05 pm

Upgrade25 Regular Member Join Date: November 5, 2015 Posts: 912 Religion: Latin Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Upgrade25 I might check out a commentary a certain website is doing. If I say it I'll get banned though. Nevermind. I.. have changed my mind. Just hope this election stuff stops going so crazy. __________________ Domine Iesu Christe, Filii Dei, miserere me, peccatoris.

#13   Oct 4, '16, 4:24 pm

lmachine Regular Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,995 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate The GOP has come back from the future to tell us who won the debate. Edit: actually all the spin articles the RNC are planning have been posted, including "It's clear who lost the VP debate: Hillary Clinton" and "5 Questions Tim Kaine was not asked": Quote: The American people will hold Tim Kaine and Hillary Clinton accountable for their records of failure and corruption even if tonight's debate did not. Tim Kaine must be breathing a sigh of relief that he did not have to answer for these important questions: They caught their mistake and took them down now.

#14   Oct 4, '16, 5:42 pm

Beryllos Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2013 Posts: 7,040 Religion: Catholic

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Such hubris!

#15   Oct 4, '16, 5:45 pm

Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian

Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce I'm looking forward to it. I'd like to see what kind of questions they will be asked. I expect life issues to be discussed. I wonder about those issues as well - they haven't made much of an entrance into the race thus far.  Oct 4, '16, 5:47 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine The GOP has come back from the future to tell us who won the debate. Edit: actually all the spin articles the RNC are planning have been posted, including "It's clear who lost the VP debate: Hillary Clinton" and "5 Questions Tim Kaine was not asked": They caught their mistake and took them down now. LOL. Well, I guess they need a little wishful thinking these days.   #17   Oct 4, '16, 5:59 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Catholic vs. Former Catholic - sure to be interesting.   #18   Oct 4, '16, 6:10 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate They are both such courtly, decent men - no doubt!   #19   Oct 4, '16, 6:12 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep They are both such courtly, decent men - no doubt! I absolutely agree. What a difference. Woops, mudslinging just began.   #20   Oct 4, '16, 6:20 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ I absolutely agree. What a difference. Woops, mudslinging just began. It always does, but I stand by my original thoughts regarding these gentlemen.   #21   Oct 4, '16, 6:22 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I like how Pence is using the "you can ask me what you want, but I'm going to tell you what I want" debate tactic.   #22   Oct 4, '16, 6:31 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ I like how Pence is using the "you can ask me what you want, but I'm going to tell you what I want" debate tactic. He's trying to give Mr. Trump some pointers for Sunday - who can blame him?!   #23   Oct 4, '16, 6:33 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Pence is answering thoughtfully, but Kaine keeps interrupting. Pence gives the impression of a wise person - lots of experience. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #24   Oct 4, '16, 6:37 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows Pence is answering thoughtfully, but Kaine keeps interrupting. Pence gives the impression of a wise person - lots of experience. They are both wise men with deep political experience. They just approach things from different vantage points. Kaine: "I cannot believe that Governor Pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that Donald Trump has run." And Pence didn't.   #25   Oct 4, '16, 6:40 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep They are both wise men with deep political experience. They just approach things from different vantage points. Kaine does not impress me. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #26   Oct 4, '16, 6:41 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep They are both wise men with deep political experience. They just approach things from different vantage points. Kaine: "I cannot believe that Governor Pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that Donald Trump has run." And Pence didn't. He did. You spoke too soon! __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #27   Oct 4, '16, 6:47 pm Mulligan2 Regular Member Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 1,355 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Kaine is solid. I can see why Clinton selected him. He'll be a great VP. Pence is struggling to put a positive spin on Trump's comments and policies. He's been put in an untenable situation.   #28   Oct 4, '16, 6:48 pm XndrK Regular Member Join Date: August 11, 2013 Posts: 824 Religion: Papist =) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine The GOP has come back from the future to tell us who won the debate. Edit: actually all the spin articles the RNC are planning have been posted, including "It's clear who lost the VP debate: Hillary Clinton" and "5 Questions Tim Kaine was not asked": They caught their mistake and took them down now. ... and instead showed one of the strangest 404 pages I've ever seen. __________________ Join the Christian Democracy group!   #29   Oct 4, '16, 6:49 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows Kaine does not impress me. Imagine my surprise!   #30   Oct 4, '16, 6:50 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mulligan2 Kaine is solid. I can see why Clinton selected him. He'll be a great VP. Pence is struggling to put a positive spin on Trump's comments and policies. He's been put in an untenable situation. Poor Pence. I feel sorry for him. He's doing is best, of course, but how can he defend Mr. Trump? Oct 4, '16, 6:51 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows He did. You spoke too soon! Story of my life!   #32   Oct 4, '16, 6:51 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Pense is definitely a better speaker. Unfortunately he has to speak about his running mate.   #33   Oct 4, '16, 6:52 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Pense is definitely a better speaker. Unfortunately he has to speak about his running mate. There's that.   #34   Oct 4, '16, 6:55 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Kaine's points are better. And he's actually laying out plans. And Pense can't seem to answer for all the awful Trump has said and endorsed. But he doesn't speak as well.   #35   Oct 4, '16, 6:57 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Kaine's points are better. And he's actually laying out plans. And Pense can't seem to answer for all the awful Trump has said and endorsed. But he doesn't speak as well. I've always liked both these gentlemen very much. They are good men, imho, period. That said, I agree with the policies of Clinton and Kaine more than I agree with the policies of Trump and Pence and that is how I will vote. That is how most American citizens will vote.   #36   Oct 4, '16, 6:58 pm 10gr8kids Regular Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Posts: 1,489 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Pense is definitely a better speaker. Unfortunately he has to speak about his running mate. And he has to talk over Kaine and the moderator!! They both keep interupting Pence. It is very irritating to watch. __________________ "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jerimiah 29:11   #37   Oct 4, '16, 6:59 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate The moderator is the real star. She's doing a very good job of corking them when they get unruly.   #38   Oct 4, '16, 6:59 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb The moderator is the real star. She's doing a very good job of corking them when they get unruly. Agree! She's doing a great job!   #39   Oct 4, '16, 7:01 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 10gr8kids And he has to talk over Kaine and the moderator!! They both keep interupting Pence. It is very irritating to watch. Was it equally annoying when Mr. Trump interrupted Mrs. Clinton constantly in their 1st debate? Interruptions in debates don't bother me personally. I think they're to be expected.   #40   Oct 4, '16, 7:03 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep Poor Pence. I feel sorry for him. He's doing is best, of course, but how can he defend Mr. Trump? I feel sorry for Kaine having to defend Hillary's record as Secretary of State and her foreign policy and her e-mail scandal. Kaine seems to have a hard time with facts and he always falls back on Trump's taxes. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #41   Oct 4, '16, 7:03 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Kaine needs to get off the taxes. Pense needs to get off Russia. They are weak points for them both.   #42   Oct 4, '16, 7:04 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb The moderator is the real star. She's doing a very good job of corking them when they get unruly. No. She is a very weak moderator I think. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #43   Oct 4, '16, 7:05 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 10gr8kids And he has to talk over Kaine and the moderator!! They both keep interupting Pence. It is very irritating to watch. I agree. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #44   Oct 4, '16, 7:06 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows I feel sorry for Kaine having to defend Hillary's record as Secretary of State and her foreign policy and her e-mail scandal. Kaine seems to have a hard time with facts and he always falls back on Trump's taxes. As long as I've been politically cognizant (since the 1970s), the Middle East has been a terroristic nightmare. To blame that dumpster fire on HRC is rich, but unconvincing. And there's no email scandal outside of Talk Radio and Republican fear of Mrs. Clinton. Ask James Comey.   #45   Oct 4, '16, 7:06 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep Story of my life! __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139  Oct 4, '16, 7:10 pm Dwyer Regular Member Join Date: February 26, 2007 Posts: 1,361 Religion: Byzantine Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Interesting tie color choice of the two gentlemen. Red state / Blue State outreach from both parties? __________________ "It's a free country; you can say whatever you want." --Old American Saying (U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an American Flag shield.)   #47   Oct 4, '16, 7:11 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Dwyer Interesting tie color choice of the two gentlemen. Red state / Blue State outreach from both parties? I hadn't even noticed. Good catch! __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #48   Oct 4, '16, 7:14 pm 10gr8kids Regular Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Posts: 1,489 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep Was it equally annoying when Mr. Trump interrupted Mrs. Clinton constantly in their 1st debate? Interruptions in debates don't bother me personally. I think they're to be expected. When Trump interrupted Clinton it was usually one or two words after Clinton had talked for several minutes. Kaine starts talking over Pence before he has a chance to finish his first sentence, and he just keeps on talking. __________________ "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jerimiah 29:11   #49   Oct 4, '16, 7:14 pm YADA Forum Supporter Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep There's that. Trump never said all Mexicans or illegal aliens were criminals or rapists ... but there are many stories like this: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...-say/90372262/ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/03/ny...on-debate.html And then terrorism, murder and illegal voting .... http://hotair.com/archives/2016/09/2...t-u-s-citizen/ Trump says lots of off the wall and even outrages things I wish he would not - Hillary and Kaine twist what he says and the focus of his words to make him sound even worse ... Crime committed by illegal aliens - especially those who have been arrested for other crimes and released are crimes that should not happen and do because of current immigration policy .. And personally I hate that question Kaine asked - paraphrased - "Would you break up families with deportation policy?" Really .. did not these parents by their action of illegally entering a country .. whether they brought children with them or had them here - decide to take that chance? Yes they did/ They made a decision to leave family and country behind to come here without following the law and set in place the chance that their actions might mean they could be deported .... __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #50   Oct 4, '16, 7:15 pm 10gr8kids Regular Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Posts: 1,489 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows No. She is a very weak moderator I think. I agree. __________________ "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jerimiah 29:11   #51   Oct 4, '16, 7:17 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I think Pence has won this debate. The thought of Clinton/Kaine in charge of foreign policy is very frightening! __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #52   Oct 4, '16, 7:23 pm YADA Forum Supporter Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep I've always liked both these gentlemen very much. They are good men, imho, period. That said, I agree with the policies of Clinton and Kaine more than I agree with the policies of Trump and Pence and that is how I will vote. That is how most American citizens will vote. Wow - and one of those major policies seeks to abolish the Hyde Amendment and export the murder of innocents around the world in guise of 'women's reproductive health' ... __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #53   Oct 4, '16, 7:23 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows I think Pence has won this debate. The thought of Clinton/Kaine in charge of foreign policy is very frightening! Think or want? Because the second statement makes it seem like you want Pence to have won.   #54   Oct 4, '16, 7:25 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Heheh. Kaine is doing the "I practice my religion personally, but my primary obligation is to my political office, so I permit that to trump my faith" schtick.   #55   Oct 4, '16, 7:26 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Heheh. Kaine is doing the "I practice my religion personally, but my primary obligation is to my political office, so I permit that to trump my faith" schtick. As a nonbeliever, I greatly appreciated that answer.   #56   Oct 4, '16, 7:27 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate They both have said beautiful things about their faith life. I love that.   #57   Oct 4, '16, 7:28 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb As a nonbeliever, I greatly appreciated that answer. Perhaps the fact that an allegedly devout Catholic appeals more to nonbelievers than to believers is more of an indictment than it is praiseworthy.   #58   Oct 4, '16, 7:28 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by YADA Wow - and one of those major policies seeks to abolish the Hyde Amendment and export the murder of innocents around the world in guise of 'women's reproductive health' ... I'm a deep believer in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. I understand that others may not be.   #59   Oct 4, '16, 7:31 pm YADA Forum Supporter Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Now Kaine is dancing around how he can depart from Church teaching .... ugh __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #60   Oct 4, '16, 7:31 pm Rhubarb Regular Member Join Date: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1,816 Religion: Agnostic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Perhaps the fact that an allegedly devout Catholic appeals more to nonbelievers than to believers is more of an indictment than it is praiseworthy. Sure. If he were running for the office of Church Leader. Buy he's not. I don't want people hoisting their religion on me. Oct 4, '16, 7:34 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Sure. If he were running for the office of Church Leader. Buy he's not. I don't want people hoisting their religion on me. You, and the majority of the rest of USA voters.   #62   Oct 4, '16, 7:34 pm 10gr8kids Regular Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Posts: 1,489 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb As a nonbeliever, I greatly appreciated that answer. As a Catholic he embarrasses me. __________________ "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jerimiah 29:11   #63   Oct 4, '16, 7:36 pm YADA Forum Supporter Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep I'm a deep believer in the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. I understand that others may not be. How just is Roe v. Wade for the unborn child ripped from her mother's womb? Roe v. Wade was based upon a lie - the pregnancy was not as purported in the case - thus the entire decision was based on a case built in lies .. how is that wise or just? Abortion always leaves one dead and one hurting. That is the deep truth in which you see "wisdom and justice" __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #64   Oct 4, '16, 7:36 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 10gr8kids When Trump interrupted Clinton it was usually one or two words after Clinton had talked for several minutes. Kaine starts talking over Pence before he has a chance to finish his first sentence, and he just keeps on talking. Debates gonna Debate.....hence, interruptions.   #65   Oct 4, '16, 7:38 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Sure. If he were running for the office of Church Leader. Buy he's not. I don't want people hoisting their religion on me. I'm sorry, Rhubarb. If you think that social issues like abortion are rooted entirely in religion, and have absolutely no basis in philosophical principles that people of all faiths can agree to argue from, you really need to spend a bit more time reading Catholic perspectives on all of this. Incidentally, I love how Pence, a fallen-away Catholic, is actually defending the Catholic position on abortion against Kaine, who continues to identify as being a Catholic despite disregarding Church teaching on this matter. Well done, Governor.   #66   Oct 4, '16, 7:39 pm minion Regular Member Join Date: August 29, 2011 Posts: 564 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Kaine: "I am personally opposed to murdering children, but if a mother feels it necessary, who am I to impose my values on her?" brilliant __________________ "I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ – though it contains...some samples or glimpses of final victory.” -J.R.R. Tolkien   #67   Oct 4, '16, 7:41 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ I'm sorry, Rhubarb. If you think that social issues like abortion are rooted entirely in religion, and have absolutely no basis in philosophical principles that people of all faiths can agree to argue from, you really need to spend a bit more time reading Catholic perspectives on all of this. Incidentally, I love how Pence, a fallen-away Catholic, is actually defending the Catholic position on abortion against Kaine, who continues to identify as being a Catholic despite disregarding Church teaching on this matter. Well done, Governor. The social issue of abortion is clearly not rooted in this election. I love both these guys. Pence did great - he's a great man. Kaine was excellent as well.   #68   Oct 4, '16, 7:41 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep Debates gonna Debate.....hence, interruptions. Interruptions are not inherent to debate.   #69   Oct 4, '16, 7:41 pm tseleehw Junior Member Join Date: April 11, 2016 Posts: 367 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by minion Kaine: "I am personally opposed to murdering children, but if a mother feels it necessary, who am I to impose my values on her?" brilliant I agree...might as well say, "Well I'm personally opposed to murder, but I don't think the government should impose its will on the people and pass laws restricting their choices when it comes to committing murders."   #70   Oct 4, '16, 7:42 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Interruptions are not inherent to debate. I think they are in Presidential Debates. But I hear you.   #71   Oct 4, '16, 7:43 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by minion brilliant Agreed: it's a tired old schtick, and I would sincerely have more respect for someone like Kaine, on this issue, if he just came out and admitted that he's against Church teaching, and that he thinks abortion is fine.   #72   Oct 4, '16, 7:45 pm LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep I think they are in Presidential Debates. But I hear you. Yep, and I hear you too. By the way, I also agree with your analysis of these two men. On the level of personality, I think they are both gentlemen and I like them both.   #73   Oct 4, '16, 7:47 pm JimG Forum Elder Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,273 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I am personally opposed to voter fraud, but who am I to impose my values on others?   #74   Oct 4, '16, 7:48 pm AFerri48 Regular Member Join Date: October 21, 2015 Posts: 896 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Sure. If he were running for the office of Church Leader. Buy he's not. I don't want people hoisting their religion on me. Trying to make abortion illegal isn't because of religion. If Catholics were all about trying to force our religion on others, we would be trying to criminalize way more sins than just abortion. Killing a child in the womb shouldn't be legal. And if you think someone with this stance is forcing religion on you simply because it also happens to be sinful, than I guess you want things like murder after birth and rape to be legal as well right?   #75   Oct 4, '16, 7:59 pm 1neophyte Regular Member Join Date: October 15, 2015 Posts: 1,413 Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by minion Kaine: "I am personally opposed to murdering children, but if a mother feels it necessary, who am I to impose my values on her?" brilliant Pence could have smoked him PERFECTLY if he came back with, "Then I assume you trust every police officer to shoot and kill whoever they see fit, without imposing your values on them?" Oct 4, '16, 8:01 pm Little Sheep Regular Member Join Date: January 4, 2016 Posts: 1,766 Religion: Episcopalian Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Yep, and I hear you too. By the way, I also agree with your analysis of these two men. On the level of personality, I think they are both gentlemen and I like them both. Yep. I'm not a person who's in any danger of changing her vote, but these are two very good men and we should not deny that.   #77   Oct 4, '16, 8:04 pm YADA Forum Supporter Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by minion Kaine: "I am personally opposed to murdering children, but if a mother feels it necessary, who am I to impose my values on her?" brilliant That is what he really is saying ... its so sad ... __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #78   Oct 4, '16, 8:06 pm Beautiful Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2007 Posts: 6,897 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 10gr8kids As a Catholic he embarrasses me. Regarding Kaine... We should start a prayer petition for him.   #79   Oct 4, '16, 8:15 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mulligan2 Kaine is solid. I can see why Clinton selected him. He'll be a great VP. Pence is struggling to put a positive spin on Trump's comments and policies. He's been put in an untenable situation. I agree with your second statement about Pence's untenable position, trying to defend Trump and the things which the latter has said. However, of the two candidates, Pence seemed to me the more solid and statesmanlike. He sounded good and looked good. Kaine, on the other hand, appeared rather nervous, was drinking water constantly (Pence only once), and kept interrupting Pence to the point of rudeness. He seemed to be on a caffeine high. I don't agree with most of the content of Pence's remarks, but, stylistically speaking, he was definitely the winner of the debate. Once again, as in the presidential debate, they were wearing the wrong political colors: Pence, a blue tie; Kaine, a red one.   #80   Oct 4, '16, 8:27 pm Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Mike Pence nailed it! He was calm and cool while Kaine appeared unhinged.   #81   Oct 4, '16, 8:27 pm 10gr8kids Regular Member Join Date: November 28, 2011 Posts: 1,489 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Beautiful Regarding Kaine... We should start a prayer petition for him. Yes, we should. For Pence as well, that he will come to know that his true faith is more than just Sunday's and Grace before meals. __________________ "I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jerimiah 29:11   #82   Oct 4, '16, 8:29 pm Beautiful Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2007 Posts: 6,897 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Kaine, on the other hand, appeared rather nervous, was drinking water constantly (Pence only once), and kept interrupting Pence to the point of rudeness. He seemed to be on a caffeine high. I have seen mannerisms like that in many other people ...like an obsession or possibly a possession. We should pray for him.   #83   Oct 4, '16, 8:30 pm Beautiful Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2007 Posts: 6,897 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 10gr8kids yes, we should. For pence as well, that he will come to know that his true faith is more than just sunday's and grace before meals. 🙏🏼   #84   Oct 4, '16, 8:34 pm Michael Mayo Regular Member Join Date: March 7, 2012 Posts: 4,901 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Mike Pence nailed it! He was calm and cool while Kaine appeared unhinged. But he could not defend Trump at all on any point. At one point Kaine asked him why he "can't trust women to make their own reproductive choices". Why didn't Pence just say, "Because sometimes they choose to kill the life within them"? __________________ “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. - Pope Francis   #85   Oct 4, '16, 8:40 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I agree with your second statement about Pence's untenable position, trying to defend Trump and the things which the latter has said. However, of the two candidates, Pence seemed to me the more solid and statesmanlike. He sounded good and looked good. Kaine, on the other hand, appeared rather nervous, was drinking water constantly (Pence only once), and kept interrupting Pence to the point of rudeness. He seemed to be on a caffeine high. I don't agree with most of the content of Pence's remarks, but, stylistically speaking, he was definitely the winner of the debate. Once again, as in the presidential debate, they were wearing the wrong political colors: Pence, a blue tie; Kaine, a red one. One more point, and something I think almost all the pundits don't understand. In this topsy-turvy culture of ours, many people actually might prefer the more aggressive, interrupting Kaine to the more gentlemanly Pence. Unfortunately, we live in a society in which manners and civility are regarded by many as old-fashioned. Hence, Trump's appeal as well.   #86   Oct 4, '16, 8:41 pm Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael Mayo But he could not defend Trump at all on any point. At one point Kaine asked him why he "can't trust women to make their own reproductive choices". Why didn't Pence just say, "Because sometimes they choose to kill the life within them"? I believe Pence made his and Trump's position on abortion very clear. Kaine just offered the same old Catholic democrat cop out.   #87   Oct 4, '16, 8:46 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Frank Luntz's focus group: Quote: Mike Pence won tonight's debate by a bigger margin (22-4) than Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump (16-6) in the first debate. #VPDebate* https://twitter.com/frankluntz/statu...96355863986176   #88   Oct 4, '16, 8:50 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,032 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb As a nonbeliever, I greatly appreciated that answer. A person doesn't have to be a nonbeliever to have appreciated that answer. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #89   Oct 4, '16, 8:50 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by _Abyssinia Frank Luntz's focus group: https://twitter.com/frankluntz/statu...96355863986176 I think Pence won on style, but Kaine won on substance, even if you don't agree with his message. In fact, the latter was probably over-prepared and sounded like he was, anxious to get in everything he had rehearsed and therefore continuously interrupting his opponent.   #90   Oct 4, '16, 8:52 pm abucs Regular Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Posts: 3,168 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Interruptions are not inherent to debate. I agree, especially when interruptions are deliberately used to prevent the other from making their points. Kaine did not come across well to me. He seemed to want to throw as much politically correct transgressions at Trump as possible and then interrupt Pence whenever he went near criticizing Hillary Clinton. It is amazing to me just how much the Democratic Party relies on criticising and distorting Trumps word's, arguing he cannot be President because he does not bow down to the dumbed down political correctness. Take that away from the Democrats and what else have they got? It is interesting that in the first Presidential Debate Trump took the criticisms head on and was criticised for getting off message and falling into Hillary's trap of making the debate all about him. Pence largely ignored Kaine's criticisms of Trump and now Pence is being criticised for not being willing to defend Trump. But then hopefully we have all stopped listening to the spin by now. Oct 4, '16, 8:58 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,032 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep Yep. I'm not a person who's in any danger of changing her vote, but these are two very good men and we should not deny that. I only saw the last 30 minutes but I doubt very much that the VP debate will change many votes. Commentary I heard afterwards was that both men spoke to their bases. One commentator thought the debate made Pence the frontrunnner for his party in 2020. Another thought there would be some fact checking in the coming days in regard to Pence saying Trump never said things that he said. Another said voters are already looking past this debate to Sunday's Presidential. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #92   Oct 4, '16, 9:03 pm Sy Noe Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2013 Posts: 8,032 Religion: Non practicing Roman Catholic with mainline Christian faith Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by YADA Trump never said all Mexicans or illegal aliens were criminals or rapists. He said he only "assumes" some are good people. __________________ "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage... it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time." "The view of the church’s teaching as a monolith to defend without nuance or different understandings is wrong." (Pope Francis)   #93   Oct 4, '16, 9:04 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I don't think I saw all her questioning, but from what I did see, I'm sorry I can't remember her fulll name, but the moderator was great - can the following presidential debate moderators ask substantive questions and (I don't think from the parts I saw, she fact checked the candidates either), so not fact check the candidates, but allow the candidates to go back and forth with their points and questioning? And thank you Mike Pence for talking about partial birth abortion!!   #94   Oct 4, '16, 9:13 pm abucs Regular Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Posts: 3,168 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I also think it is not the moderators role to provide fact checking because, despite the name, 'fact checking' can be incredibly partisan and therefore unfair to to the speakers. Elaine Quijano was certainly better in that regard.   #95   Oct 4, '16, 9:21 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate CNN flash poll: Pence tops Kaine in VP debate http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/cn...rticle/2603666   #96   Oct 4, '16, 10:12 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Rhubarb Think or want? Because the second statement makes it seem like you want Pence to have won. I think so based on Pence's performance. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #97   Oct 4, '16, 10:14 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ I'm sorry, Rhubarb. If you think that social issues like abortion are rooted entirely in religion, and have absolutely no basis in philosophical principles that people of all faiths can agree to argue from, you really need to spend a bit more time reading Catholic perspectives on all of this. Incidentally, I love how Pence, a fallen-away Catholic, is actually defending the Catholic position on abortion against Kaine, who continues to identify as being a Catholic despite disregarding Church teaching on this matter. Well done, Governor. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #98   Oct 4, '16, 10:18 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael Mayo But he could not defend Trump at all on any point. At one point Kaine asked him why he "can't trust women to make their own reproductive choices". Why didn't Pence just say, "Because sometimes they choose to kill the life within them"? he defended Trump on many points. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #99   Oct 4, '16, 10:29 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I think Pence won on style, but Kaine won on substance, even if you don't agree with his message. In fact, the latter was probably over-prepared and sounded like he was, anxious to get in everything he had rehearsed and therefore continuously interrupting his opponent. Kaine definitely had his scripted answers to throw out where Pence spoke from a more mature understanding of the platform he and Trump are running on and why. Pence is speaking from the reality of where we are at as a country. Maybe Trump will learn something by watching Pence. Sadly, Kaine was more like Hillary's trained puppy. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #100   Oct 4, '16, 10:31 pm I trust Junior Member Join Date: September 24, 2011 Posts: 441 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Can't let Church teaching get in the way of political ambitions. He needs our prayers.   #101   Oct 4, '16, 10:47 pm Thorolfr Regular Member Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Mike Pence nailed it! He was calm and cool while Kaine appeared unhinged. In this election, Kaine can hardly appear unhinged in comparison to Mr. Trump.   #102   Oct 4, '16, 10:59 pm Thorolfr Regular Member Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by _Abyssinia CNN flash poll: Pence tops Kaine in VP debate http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/cn...rticle/2603666 Quote: According to the new survey, 48 percent of those who watched Tuesday's debate believe Pence emerged as the victor, while 42 percent say Kaine outperformed his Republican counterpart. A poll that has Pence winning by 48% to 42% for Kaine is not a very big win for Pence and will probably have almost no effect on the election. A six point margin is no where near the lopsided margin between Clinton and Trump in most polls for the first presidential debate and that debate was far more important than tonight's debate between the vice presidential candidates.   #103   Oct 4, '16, 11:24 pm oneofmany Regular Member Join Date: December 14, 2010 Posts: 1,385 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate When religion came into the discussion did you notice Kaine immediately went to the death penalty and not the abortion one? He didn't even get that right on what the Church says. The Church is against the death penalty but not in all cases. Pence wasn't afraid to talk about abortion, Kaine says he is personally against but he wants it to be up to the woman. Might as well say he is for abortion in all circumstances like Hillary is since he will back her up in all she says. Nothing about adoption. Planned Parenthood owns the Dem party anymore, they give so much money to them.   #104   Oct 4, '16, 11:28 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by oneofmany When religion came into the discussion did you notice Kaine immediately went to the death penalty and not the abortion one? He didn't even get that right on what the Church says. The Church is against the death penalty but not in all cases. Pence wasn't afraid to talk about abortion, Kaine says he is personally against but he wants it to be up to the woman. Might as well say he is for abortion in all circumstances like Hillary is since he will back her up in all she says. Nothing about adoption. Planned Parenthood owns the Dem party anymore, they give so much money to them. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #105   Oct 4, '16, 11:30 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr A poll that has Pence winning by 48% to 42% for Kaine is not a very big win for Pence and will probably have almost no effect on the election. A six point margin is no where near the lopsided margin between Clinton and Trump in most polls for the first presidential debate and that debate was far more important than tonight's debate between the vice presidential candidates. that was only one poll. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139 Oct 4, '16, 11:43 pm Thorolfr Regular Member Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows that was only one poll. There probably won't be hardly any more polls on this debate since vice presidential debates are rarely very important in most elections. I didn't even bother watching this debate and only saw a few clips of it online.   #107   Oct 5, '16, 2:49 am 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr There probably won't be hardly any more polls on this debate since vice presidential debates are rarely very important in most elections. I didn't even bother watching this debate and only saw a few clips of it online. You should check the poll on the Drudge Report. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #108   Oct 5, '16, 5:27 am DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,073 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Winners and Losers from the WaPo https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ential-debate/ __________________ Thank you, St. Jude! Patron of hopeless and impossible cases! http://www.shrineofstjude.org/site/P...e=ssj_homepage Please support the cause for the Beatification and Canonization of Rhoda Wise: http://rhodawise.com/   #109   Oct 5, '16, 6:30 am Monte RCMS Forum Master Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Trump does NOT contradict himself. What Trump DOES do is to mock his opponent. With Trump it helps to actually watch the video AND listen to the audio BECAUSE Trump employs a LOT of sarcasm. He quotes his opponent and then mocks her alleged accomplishments. So, it is easy for a reporter to quote Trump out of context. So, just visit YouTube and see for yourself. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #110   Oct 5, '16, 6:31 am Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr There probably won't be hardly any more polls on this debate since vice presidential debates are rarely very important in most elections. I didn't even bother watching this debate and only saw a few clips of it online. If Kaine would have won I bet your opinion would be different   #111   Oct 5, '16, 6:53 am DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,073 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 If Kaine would have won I bet your opinion would be different __________________ Thank you, St. Jude! Patron of hopeless and impossible cases! http://www.shrineofstjude.org/site/P...e=ssj_homepage Please support the cause for the Beatification and Canonization of Rhoda Wise: http://rhodawise.com/   #112   Oct 5, '16, 7:14 am Robert Bay Moderator Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 32,571 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate MODERATOR REMINDER No personal attacks on candidates If a candidate identifies as a certain religion, we take them at their word. There were many issues discussed at the debate last night, please discuss the issues. __________________ Robert Bay, Moderator Forum Rules Never let evil talk pass your lips; say only the good things men need to hear, things that will really help them. (Ephesians 4:29) Moderator direction can be appealed by sending an email to: forumadmin@catholic.com   #113   Oct 5, '16, 7:29 am lmachine Regular Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,997 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by XndrK ... and instead showed one of the strangest 404 pages I've ever seen. Yeah, it's telling the GOP would use a 404 page to attack Clinton while Clinton uses her 404 page to poke fun at herself.   #114   Oct 5, '16, 7:30 am lmachine Regular Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,997 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ Perhaps the fact that an allegedly devout Catholic appeals more to nonbelievers than to believers is more of an indictment than it is praiseworthy. The Clinton-Kaine ticket will be voted for by the majority of Catholic voters as well.   #115   Oct 5, '16, 7:30 am Mulligan2 Regular Member Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 1,355 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate This debate assessment is spot on. http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/opinio...ion/index.html As mentioned, Pence was put in an untenable situation of having to defend Trump. Pence's numerous replies to the effect of "Trump never said that" - when there is video evidence that proves he actually said those things - does nothing to enhance the credibility of the GOP ticket.   #116   Oct 5, '16, 7:36 am LiamQ Regular Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine The Clinton-Kaine ticket will be voted for by the majority of Catholic voters as well. The fact that Kaine is not unique in his rejection of Church teaching on certain matters by no means undermines my original comment.   #117   Oct 5, '16, 7:37 am Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mulligan2 This debate assessment is spot on. http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/opinio...ion/index.html As mentioned, Pence was put in an untenable situation of having to defend Trump. Pence's numerous replies to the effect of "Trump never said that" - when there is video evidence that proves he actually said those things - does nothing to enhance the credibility of the GOP ticket. Pence was not given time to explain how all of these were taken out of context   #118   Oct 5, '16, 7:38 am Siegehammer Junior Member Join Date: October 22, 2014 Posts: 439 Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Everything Mike Pence believes and says and does is so wretchedly abhorrent, and Tim Kaine is just so fundamentally decent, that there doesn't seem to be any point in deep-diving into the content of the debate. It wasn't even a contest. And as for their running mates: Kaine started out saying he was proud to be on the ticket with Hillary Clinton, and Pence spent the entire debate comprehensively unable to defend a single thing that Donald Trump has said. If that doesn't sum it up, well...   #119   Oct 5, '16, 7:44 am kat07 Regular Member Join Date: October 9, 2013 Posts: 607 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine The Clinton-Kaine ticket will be voted for by the majority of Catholic voters as well. Think about that for a minute.....sad.   #120   Oct 5, '16, 7:47 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by AFerri48 Trying to make abortion illegal isn't because of religion. If Catholics were all about trying to force our religion on others, we would be trying to criminalize way more sins than just abortion. Killing a child in the womb shouldn't be legal. And if you think someone with this stance is forcing religion on you simply because it also happens to be sinful, than I guess you want things like murder after birth and rape to be legal as well right? The problem is the left has turned abortion into a religious argument. The killing of innocents is no more a religious issue than slavery was in the 19th century. __________________ Christine Oct 5, '16, 7:55 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy One more point, and something I think almost all the pundits don't understand. In this topsy-turvy culture of ours, many people actually might prefer the more aggressive, interrupting Kaine to the more gentlemanly Pence. Unfortunately, we live in a society in which manners and civility are regarded by many as old-fashioned. Hence, Trump's appeal as well. I thought of that as well. Kaine's constant jumping in before Pence could finish a thought was extremely irritating to me, though. He had no patience. Kaine came off as repeating talking points rather than really addressing the issues. He was thinking of answers without listening to what was being said. __________________ Christine   #122   Oct 5, '16, 7:56 am Mulligan2 Regular Member Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 1,355 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Pence was not given time to explain how all of these were taken out of context Nothing was taken out of context. Trump said all of those things, and his context was clear. There is video evidence for all to see. Pence lied when he said Trump didn't say those things.   #123   Oct 5, '16, 7:59 am Monte RCMS Forum Master Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mulligan2 Nothing was taken out of context. Trump said all of those things, and his context was clear. There is video evidence for all to see. Pence lied when he said Trump didn't say those things. Trump does NOT contradict himself. What Trump DOES do is to mock his opponent. With Trump it helps to actually watch the video AND listen to the audio BECAUSE Trump employs a LOT of sarcasm. He quotes his opponent and then mocks her alleged accomplishments. So, it is easy for a reporter to quote Trump out of context. So, just visit YouTube and see for yourself. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #124   Oct 5, '16, 7:59 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows Kaine definitely had his scripted answers to throw out where Pence spoke from a more mature understanding of the platform he and Trump are running on and why. Pence is speaking from the reality of where we are at as a country. Maybe Trump will learn something by watching Pence. Sadly, Kaine was more like Hillary's trained puppy. Agree with all of it. Well said! __________________ Christine   #125   Oct 5, '16, 8:02 am Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Yep, Kaine's assertion Trump wants to ban all Muslims. Out of Context. His assertion Trump said all Mexicans are rapists. Outright lie! and on and on.   #126   Oct 5, '16, 8:11 am Trader Regular Member Join Date: June 28, 2007 Posts: 3,894 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Little Sheep They both have said beautiful things about their faith life. I love that. What they say does not mean much when their actions proclaim the opposite.   #127   Oct 5, '16, 8:12 am gilliam Forum Elder Join Date: June 11, 2004 Posts: 37,957 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Analysis of the vice presidential debate found that Tim Kaine interrupted Mike Pence 70 times. http://abcn.ws/2dKih4U Headline pretty much says it all. I was hoping to actually find out where Tim Kaine stood on the issues, instead he decided to to this. __________________ -gilliam Catholicism is not the religious version of a political ideology   #128   Oct 5, '16, 8:16 am Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by gilliam Analysis of the vice presidential debate found that Tim Kaine interrupted Mike Pence 70 times. http://abcn.ws/2dKih4U Headline pretty much says it all. I was hoping to actually find out where Tim Kaine stood on the issues, instead he decided to to this. They have nothing except to go negative on Trump. There is nothing positive about HRC   #129   Oct 5, '16, 8:20 am lmachine Regular Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,997 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS Trump does NOT contradict himself. [...] So, just visit YouTube and see for yourself. Okay   #130   Oct 5, '16, 8:21 am Trader Regular Member Join Date: June 28, 2007 Posts: 3,894 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by gilliam Analysis of the vice presidential debate found that Tim Kaine interrupted Mike Pence 70 times. http://abcn.ws/2dKih4U Headline pretty much says it all. I was hoping to actually find out where Tim Kaine stood on the issues, instead he decided to to this. One member of the CBS focus group summed it up for me: "Kaine came across as a jerk." This from a guy who said he liked Kaine. The interruptions started on the very first question. Maybe he just had too much coffee before the debate. One mainstream news headline I saw today said that both sides interrupted the other. For some reason liberals are always bad at math.   #131   Oct 5, '16, 8:25 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Siegehammer Everything Mike Pence believes and says and does is so wretchedly abhorrent, and Tim Kaine is just so fundamentally decent, that there doesn't seem to be any point in deep-diving into the content of the debate. It wasn't even a contest. And as for their running mates: Kaine started out saying he was proud to be on the ticket with Hillary Clinton, and Pence spent the entire debate comprehensively unable to defend a single thing that Donald Trump has said. If that doesn't sum it up, well... EVERYTHING? Like when he said he would be willing to work with Kaine? Like when he said he would try to make the Hyde amendment permanent? Like when he said we should mourn deaths rather than politicize them? __________________ Christine   #132   Oct 5, '16, 8:27 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,561 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 They have nothing except to go negative on Trump. There is nothing positive about HRC There is nothing positive about Donald either. There is no good candidate in this race. You just have to pick which set of flaws you want to live with.   #133   Oct 5, '16, 8:30 am Michael68 Banned Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 There is nothing positive about Donald either. There is no good candidate in this race. You just have to pick which set of flaws you want to live with. I have to go with the pro-life ticket.   #134   Oct 5, '16, 8:31 am Mulligan2 Regular Member Join Date: December 31, 2012 Posts: 1,355 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS Trump does NOT contradict himself. Seriously? He's contradicted himself numerous times. Have you seen his Chris Mathews interview, and the subsequent "clarifications" and attempts at damage control? Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS What Trump DOES do is to mock his opponent. Not a presidential trait. Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS With Trump it helps to actually watch the video AND listen to the audio BECAUSE Trump employs a LOT of sarcasm. Again, not a presidential trait. Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS He quotes his opponent and then mocks her alleged accomplishments.. Actually, that what Clinton has done to Trump. The best argument against Trump is Trump himself. Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS So, it is easy for a reporter to quote Trump out of context. So your argument is "I didn't mean what I said"? Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS So, just visit YouTube and see for yourself. I've seen more than enough of Trump, thank you.   #135   Oct 5, '16, 8:37 am Maximilan Kolbe Banned Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 1,614 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Any honest assessment of the various takeaways from the debate will admit that Pence was perceived as much more likeable and civil. Most assessments of Kaine were of a man who was rude, interrupting, and a bit hot-headed. People can argue the specifics of each argument (which rarely matter as much as perception, which is why fact-checking after a debate generally serves as nothing more than a way to make supporters feel good - "see, my guy was technically correct!"), but overall, it is hard to say Pence didn't come off much better than Kaine. Perhaps that was intended, to have Kaine be a rude pitbull; who knows. As in all things, if the polls move this weekend, and next week after Sunday's presidential debate, this will all have meaning. More eyeballs were on this VP debate than in the past, given the uniqueness of this election. I believe Should be an interesting 35 days or so, with a tightening of most polls as many people seem really torn. A lot of dislike for Hillary is apparent, but can the voter turn to Trump as the alternative? Oct 5, '16, 8:40 am CNA News CA News Bot Join Date: December 2, 2004 Posts: 22,598 Here's what the VP candidates said about abortion last night [CNA] Farmville, Va., Oct 5, 2016 / 09:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- The topic of abortion made an appearance at the vice presidential debate last night, as both candidates discussed the role of faith in their lives, and how it aligns with their political views. Democratic candidate Sen. Tim Kaine (Va.) insisted he was personally opposed to abortion but would not, as a public official, infringe upon a woman’s choice to have an abortion. “We support Roe v. Wade. We support the constitutional right of American women to consult their own conscience” and “make their own decision about pregnancy,” he said. People of faith should be “convincing each other, dialoguing with each other about important moral issues of the day,” he added, “but on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions.” His words met harsh criticism from Republican Mike Pence, governor of Indiana, who reiterated his support for the pro-life cause and noted that his state has significantly increased its adoption rate in recent years. The topic was raised toward the end of the Oct. 4 vice presidential debate. “You have both been open about the role that faith has played in your lives. Can you discuss, in detail, a time when you struggled to balance your faith and a public policy position?” moderator Elaine Quijano of CBS News asked both candidates. Sen. Kaine, a baptized Catholic who has attended St. Elizabeth Ann Seton parish in the diocese of Richmond, Va., made it clear that he tries to follow Church teaching in his personal life but is careful not to let that same teaching determine his decisions as a public servant. “I try to practice my religion in a very devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life,” he said at Tuesday’s debate. However, he added, “I think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don’t feel like we can just substitute our views for everybody else in society regardless of their views.” “It is not the role of the public servant to mandate that [faith] for everybody else,” he insisted. Kaine has openly conflicted with Church teaching on both abortion and same-sex marriage while on the campaign trail, drawing criticism from several Catholic bishops for doing so. However, he gave the example of his inner conflict on the death penalty as the governor of Virginia, because he personally opposed its use but allowed for it as governor because it was the law of the state. On the death penalty, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.” “If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person,” it adds, saying that because of advances in modern security, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically nonexistent’.” Kaine presided over the execution of 11 people as governor of Virginia. “I had to grapple with that,” he explained, saying that as governor he had to operate by the laws of the state. “It was very, very difficult to allow executions to go forward, but in circumstance here I didn’t feel like there was a case for clemency, I told Virginia voters I would uphold the law, and I did,” he said. Pence, meanwhile, who was raised Catholic, answered that “my Christian faith became real for me when I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a Freshman in college. And I’ve tried to live that out, however imperfectly, every day of my life ever since.” For his part, Pence left out his own support of the death penalty, as well as his public conflict last year with Archbishop Joseph Tobin of Indianapolis when Catholic Charities was set to resettle a Syrian refugee family that had been waiting in line for two years. Gov. Pence had tried to halt resettlement of Syrian refugees in his state until the federal government gave sufficient confirmation that the resettlement program was secure. Archbishop Tobin went ahead and resettled the family against Pence’s wishes. Pence met with the archbishop and afterwards said he “respectfully disagreed” with the resettlement. Pence referred to himself as an “Evangelical-Catholic” in a 1994 interview, began attending an Evangelical megachurch with his family, and now says he is a “Christian.” Pence emphasized that his faith hinges upon upholding the “sanctity of life.” “It all for me begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of every human life,” Pence said on the debate stage. “For me the sanctity of life proceeds out of the belief that ancient principle that where God says before you were formed in the womb I knew you,” he stated. And then Pence took Kaine to task for his – and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s – support for abortion. Kaine has earned a 100 percent rating by the abortion rights group NARAL in his time in the Senate. “The very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could still have their life taken from them is just anathema to me. And I can’t conscience about a party that supports that,” Pence said. “Because a society can be judged by how it deals with its most vulnerable, the aged, the infirm, the disabled, and the unborn.” Full article... __________________ This is an automated news feed from a generally-reliable Catholic source. Should the content fall outside CAF guidelines, please do not hesitate to report it using the Report Post icon. * * * * * * * * * Discussion welcomed and encouraged. Last edited by Robert Bay; Oct 5, '16 at 9:00 am.   #137   Oct 5, '16, 8:46 am Jesus_123 Regular Member Prayer Warrior Join Date: April 3, 2009 Posts: 3,040 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate +I pray that our Wonderful Lord will richly bless Mike Pence for his courageous, blessed defence of the precious lives of the unborn . . . "But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to Me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such." - Matthew 19:14 Donald Trump and Mike Pence have expressed clearly . . . many times . . . that they are very definitely . . . PROLIFE . . . which is . . . very much . . . a healthy point of view in harmony with people of faith . . . and Donald Trump's extraordinary five children and beautiful grandchildren are undeniably great testaments to his love for and his ability to raise loving, respectful kids . . . and give tangible testament why he has come over to the . . . PROLIFE . . . point of view . . . STOPPING the , , , terrible holocaust and horrific gross evil and mortal sin . . . of the promotion by our government re the . . . murderous slaughter . . . of millions upon millions of innocent living children in the womb through the . . . EVIL OF ABORTION . . . is certainly something each and every Christian and Catholic should have as a first and foremost concern as they approach the ballot box . . . Obama is one of the most flagrant and incredibly powerful pro-abortionist leaders in the world . . . and Hilary Clinton is an avid openly pro-abortion candidate promising to ardently follow and continue promoting the . . . murderous prochoice/prodeath . . . policies of Obama . . . Is there really any real choice for any Christians . . . or Catholics . . . or persons of good conscience . . . between the two candidates . . . if one is trying to honor GOD and country . . . ? . . . Below is a copy of a petition response sent as a part of a very large concerned group of Catholic Christian citizens to our present government politicians this past year . . . "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure Domestic Tranquility, provide for the Common Defense, promote the General Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this CONSTITUTION FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.” - Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America TRAGICALLY IT IS “WE THE PEOPLE” NO MORE . . . This country's peoples have now been tragically forced by a dominating dictatorial minded government administration . . . WITHOUT either respect or concern, and with calculated deliberate disregard for the individual moral and ethical consciences of the MAJORITY of its individual citizens . . . into a complete country-wide forced involvement and investment of horrifying forced support of and for the killing/murdering of millions and millions of innocent babies in the wombs of their mothers . . .which tiny infant’s mother's wombs should be the safest place in the world for these innocent little ones . . . through the morally deficient and depraved new dreadful Obama administration health care bill and other national and international activities aggressively being pursued by the current Obama administration. Our country's government’s active willful chosen involvement in perpetuating this horrific . . . holocaust of death . . . and the trampling underfoot of any conscientious objection and choice of no involvement with same on the moral grounds of freedom of thought, moral conscience and/or religious rights . . . and the REJECTION of the right of choosing no involvement whatsoever in this ghastly murderous business being presumptuously denied through government intervention to the point where both the freedom of the exercise of moral conscience and religious rights are in grave danger of disappearing altogether . . . is a matter of gravest concern re forceful abuse of power through government tyranny and opposition to the very foundational Constitutional rule that is supposed to be being upheld and safeguarded by our government . Anything you can do at any turn to try to stem the tide of this holocaust of death is so incredibly important and should be first priority . . . for the willful killing of multitudes upon multitudes of our country's most vulnerable members of its populace most certainly never entered the minds of our founding fathers . . . who founded this nation under GOD and placed on their currency . . ."in GOD we trust" . . . PLEASE ACTIVELY STAND AGAINST U. S. GOVERNMENTAL SUPPORT OF ABORTION AND PLEASE FIRMLY UPHOLD THE RIGHT OF U.S. CITIZENS TO FREELY FOLLOW MORAL AND ETHICAL CONSCIENCE DICTATES. . . . all for Jesus+ . . . Precious Blood of Jesus In All Your Ancent Power Prevail+ . . . Blessed Virgin Mary Pray for Us+ . . . St. Michael the Archangel Protect Us in Battle+ __________________ "But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." - Jesus Matthew 4:4   #138   Oct 5, '16, 9:02 am signit Regular Member Join Date: October 26, 2006 Posts: 1,520 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Jesus_123 +I pray that our Wonderful Lord will richly bless Mike Pence for his courageous, blessed defence of the precious lives of the unborn . . . I noticed, too, that he was courageous about it. I've seen pro-life politicians almost apologizing for their stance.   #139   Oct 5, '16, 9:23 am Monte RCMS Forum Master Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mulligan2 Seriously? He's contradicted himself numerous times. Have you seen his Chris Mathews interview, and the subsequent "clarifications" and attempts at damage control? Not a presidential trait. Again, not a presidential trait. Actually, that what Clinton has done to Trump. The best argument against Trump is Trump himself. So your argument is "I didn't mean what I said"? I've seen more than enough of Trump, thank you. Trump spoke at rallies and debates ... not some boring speech. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #140   Oct 5, '16, 9:28 am 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Siegehammer Everything Mike Pence believes and says and does is so wretchedly abhorrent, and Tim Kaine is just so fundamentally decent, that there doesn't seem to be any point in deep-diving into the content of the debate. It wasn't even a contest. And as for their running mates: Kaine started out saying he was proud to be on the ticket with Hillary Clinton, and Pence spent the entire debate comprehensively unable to defend a single thing that Donald Trump has said. If that doesn't sum it up, well... I guess you didn't see the same debate I saw... __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #141   Oct 5, '16, 9:29 am 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by signit I noticed, too, that he was courageous about it. I've seen pro-life politicians almost apologizing for their stance. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #142   Oct 5, '16, 9:29 am mary bobo Veteran Member Forum Supporter Join Date: May 19, 2005 Posts: 10,620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 I have to go with the pro-life ticket. I'm with you. I don't want to meet my Maker having done otherwise. __________________ Praying for all CAF intentions.   #143   Oct 5, '16, 9:32 am Monte RCMS Forum Master Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 There is nothing positive about Donald either. There is no good candidate in this race. You just have to pick which set of flaws you want to live with. Keep visualizing the porous border, no more NRA. and much higher taxes. Trump continuously goes back to the basic issues: 1) Supreme Court Justices ... left wing appointees would permanently tilt the United States to the left. 2) Southern Border is porous ... right now there is no one stopping the flood of undocumented people AND HEROIN entering the United States. 3) The U. S. tax structure is the worst in the developed world. 4) Veterans are getting terrible treatment from the Veterans Administration. Trump has a many years record and reputation of actively supporting veterans. 5) U.S. Foreign Policy is a disaster. [Most recent example: $400 $1200+ MILLION in CASH flown to Iran under conditions of secrecy. If it was legitimate, they would do an electronic transfer. And that's just the latest.] 6) Radical Islamic Terrorism is uncontested. 7) Second Amendment. Gun control only controls law abiding citizens. Inner city crime and gang crime and black-on-black crime is/are epidemic. Getting worse and worse. 8) The economy. Record numbers of people on food stamps. People forced into part-time work owing to restrictions by government controlled medical legislation. Make participation in government controlled medical to be optional: if you can find a better and/or cheaper plan then take it. 9) Restrictions on religion. Freedom of Worship instead of freedom of religion. Mandatory Islam lessons in schools [as now in places] [Example: Why should the Little Sisters of the Poor be forced to purchase contraception?] [Example: Why should someone who posted dissection of aborted babies be prosecuted?] ... read p37 0f the DNC platform. https://www.demconvention.com/wp-con...6-no-lines.pdf 10) Education: The United States ranks around 27th in math. WHY???? 11) U.S. Military is not being kept up to date. Navy is behind in technology and numbers and readiness. Aircraft are kept going using parts from the boneyard instead of buying new stuff. Troops are not training enough. Focus on social changes. 12) Continued inner city collapse. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants were born to single mothers. In 2013, 72 percent of black infants were born to single mothers. Source: page 157, "Con Job" by Crystal Wright. "Con Job -- How Democrats Gave Us Crime, Sanctuary Cities, Abortion Profiteering, and Racial Division". Crystal Wright's Web site is www.conservativeblackchick.com __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #144   Oct 5, '16, 9:39 am 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Here's what the VP candidates said about abortion last night [CNA] Quote: Originally Posted by CNA News Farmville, Va., Oct 5, 2016 / 09:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- The topic of abortion made an appearance at the vice presidential debate last night, as both candidates discussed the role of faith in their lives, and how it aligns with their political views. Democratic candidate Sen. Tim Kaine (Va.) insisted he was personally opposed to abortion but would not, as a public official, infringe upon a woman’s choice to have an abortion. “We support Roe v. Wade. We support the constitutional right of American women to consult their own conscience” and “make their own decision about pregnancy,” he said. People of faith should be “convincing each other, dialoguing with each other about important moral issues of the day,” he added, “but on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions.” His words met harsh criticism from Republican Mike Pence, governor of Indiana, who reiterated his support for the pro-life cause and noted that his state has significantly increased its adoption rate in recent years. The topic was raised toward the end of the Oct. 4 vice presidential debate. “You have both been open about the role that faith has played in your lives. Can you discuss, in detail, a time when you struggled to balance your faith and a public policy position?” moderator Elaine Quijano of CBS News asked both candidates. Sen. Kaine, a baptized Catholic who has attended St. Elizabeth Ann Seton parish in the diocese of Richmond, Va., made it clear that he tries to follow Church teaching in his personal life but is careful not to let that same teaching determine his decisions as a public servant. “I try to practice my religion in a very devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life,” he said at Tuesday’s debate. However, he added, “I think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don’t feel like we can just substitute our views for everybody else in society regardless of their views.” “It is not the role of the public servant to mandate that [faith] for everybody else,” he insisted. Kaine has openly conflicted with Church teaching on both abortion and same-sex marriage while on the campaign trail, drawing criticism from several Catholic bishops for doing so. However, he gave the example of his inner conflict on the death penalty as the governor of Virginia, because he personally opposed its use but allowed for it as governor because it was the law of the state. On the death penalty, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.” “If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person,” it adds, saying that because of advances in modern security, “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ‘are very rare, if not practically nonexistent’.” Kaine presided over the execution of 11 people as governor of Virginia. “I had to grapple with that,” he explained, saying that as governor he had to operate by the laws of the state. “It was very, very difficult to allow executions to go forward, but in circumstance here I didn’t feel like there was a case for clemency, I told Virginia voters I would uphold the law, and I did,” he said. Pence, meanwhile, who was raised Catholic, answered that “my Christian faith became real for me when I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a Freshman in college. And I’ve tried to live that out, however imperfectly, every day of my life ever since.” For his part, Pence left out his own support of the death penalty, as well as his public conflict last year with Archbishop Joseph Tobin of Indianapolis when Catholic Charities was set to resettle a Syrian refugee family that had been waiting in line for two years. Gov. Pence had tried to halt resettlement of Syrian refugees in his state until the federal government gave sufficient confirmation that the resettlement program was secure. Archbishop Tobin went ahead and resettled the family against Pence’s wishes. Pence met with the archbishop and afterwards said he “respectfully disagreed” with the resettlement. Pence referred to himself as an “Evangelical-Catholic” in a 1994 interview, began attending an Evangelical megachurch with his family, and now says he is a “Christian.” Pence emphasized that his faith hinges upon upholding the “sanctity of life.” “It all for me begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of every human life,” Pence said on the debate stage. “For me the sanctity of life proceeds out of the belief that ancient principle that where God says before you were formed in the womb I knew you,” he stated. And then Pence took Kaine to task for his – and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s – support for abortion. Kaine has earned a 100 percent rating by the abortion rights group NARAL in his time in the Senate. “The very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could still have their life taken from them is just anathema to me. And I can’t conscience about a party that supports that,” Pence said. “Because a society can be judged by how it deals with its most vulnerable, the aged, the infirm, the disabled, and the unborn.” Full article... Kaine does not oppose the death penalty for the unborn... __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #145   Oct 5, '16, 10:05 am signit Regular Member Join Date: October 26, 2006 Posts: 1,520 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS 4) Veterans are getting terrible treatment from the Veterans Administration. Trump has a many years record and reputation of actively supporting veterans. And this in the news just yesterday: veterans are still dying while waiting for care: http://www.chron.com/news/article/Re...ix-9695750.php People have made the argument that veterans should get at least the health care we give to people who are here illegally.   #146   Oct 5, '16, 10:23 am CarolNoel Regular Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 2,369 Religion: Catholic - Forever Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by oneofmany When religion came into the discussion did you notice Kaine immediately went to the death penalty and not the abortion one? He didn't even get that right on what the Church says. The Church is against the death penalty but not in all cases. Pence wasn't afraid to talk about abortion, Kaine says he is personally against but he wants it to be up to the woman. Might as well say he is for abortion in all circumstances like Hillary is since he will back her up in all she says. Nothing about adoption. Planned Parenthood owns the Dem party anymore, they give so much money to them. And Kaine is also for gay marriage. He is pathetic. __________________ When you feel like you are drowning in life, don't worry. Your LIFEGUARD walks on water.   #147   Oct 5, '16, 10:28 am irishpatrick Veteran Member Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate I must say, I just do not understand what is happening to Catholics today. So often we see people claim their Roman Catholic faith is at the very center of their lives, yet so many of them justify all manners of sins they support, and we are not talking about missing a single Sunday Mass, we are talking about supporting grave sin that has profound impact on lives and on this nation. What drives such utter rejection of so many core teachings of the faith? Is it pure lust for power, or is it pride, greed, etc...?   #148   Oct 5, '16, 10:34 am Michael1978 Junior Member Join Date: November 1, 2010 Posts: 487 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Siegehammer Everything Mike Pence believes and says and does is so wretchedly abhorrent, and Tim Kaine is just so fundamentally decent, that there doesn't seem to be any point in deep-diving into the content of the debate. It wasn't even a contest. And as for their running mates: Kaine started out saying he was proud to be on the ticket with Hillary Clinton, and Pence spent the entire debate comprehensively unable to defend a single thing that Donald Trump has said. If that doesn't sum it up, well... Sarcasm? __________________ +AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM+   #149   Oct 5, '16, 10:36 am Thorolfr Regular Member Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by CarolNoel And Kaine is also for gay marriage. He is pathetic. From a poll from the Pew Research Center: Quote: Similarly, despite the church’s continued opposition to same-sex marriage, most U.S. Catholics (57%) favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally wed, according to aggregated 2014 Pew Research surveys. And again, younger Catholics are particularly likely to express this view. Three-quarters of Catholic adults under 30 support legal same-sex marriage, compared with 53% of Catholics ages 30 and older (including just 38% of those 65 and older). http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...homosexuality/ So are all those Catholics who favor same-sex marriage, up to 57% of US Catholics and 75% of Catholics under 30, also "pathetic"? That's kind of a strong term which, as Merriam-Webster defines it, often implies a kind of "contemptuous pity".   #150   Oct 5, '16, 11:00 am Thorolfr Regular Member Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Showing how unimportant the vice presidential debate was, I saw online that three Wall Street Journal reporters surveyed undecided voters in Northern Virginia afterward, and the debate swayed none of them. Oct 5, '16, 11:04 am meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by irishpatrick I must say, I just do not understand what is happening to Catholics today. So often we see people claim their Roman Catholic faith is at the very center of their lives, yet so many of them justify all manners of sins they support, and we are not talking about missing a single Sunday Mass, we are talking about supporting grave sin that has profound impact on lives and on this nation. What drives such utter rejection of so many core teachings of the faith? Is it pure lust for power, or is it pride, greed, etc...? It is praiseworthy that one's faith be at the center of one's life. However, does that also mean that one's own faith should be at the center of the lives of others who have different faiths? I think not.   #152   Oct 5, '16, 11:13 am irishpatrick Veteran Member   Join Date: October 14, 2008 Posts: 9,846 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is praiseworthy that one's faith be at the center of one's life. However, does that also mean that one's own faith should be at the center of the lives of others who have different faiths? I think not. No, but it does a person no good if they claim to hold certain truths, and then vote or support against those truths. An easy example: If a person's faith stands 100% against action X, but that person of faith agrees to support an X supporting politician, then their faith is meaningless. The idea behind holding a binding faith is that it enlightens our mind and conscience so that our choices are made with that enlightenment in place. Christians are supposed to be the light and salt of the world--they can hardly fill that role if they support the world in deeply important issues. The faith is intended to be at a person's core, which means they are called to live their lives with their faith guiding their choices. No Catholic wants to have the populace forced to become Catholic, and the majority of Church teachings never touch the lives of non-Catholics. Some teachings raise to a level that impacts others and a Catholic must either stand firmly in the faith, or recuse themselves from public service. Otherwise, they are publicly rejecting the faith. Last edited by irishpatrick; Oct 5, '16 at 11:28 am.   #153   Oct 5, '16, 11:40 am YADA Forum Supporter   Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is praiseworthy that one's faith be at the center of one's life. However, does that also mean that one's own faith should be at the center of the lives of others who have different faiths? I think not. The murder of innocent babies is not a religious or Catholic issue any more than theft, murder of any individual, drunk driving or rape is. All of those actions are against our Catholic faith but are not "religious" nor are the laws against them an equation to imposing Catholic faith upon society. __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #154   Oct 5, '16, 11:47 am Maximilan Kolbe Banned   Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 1,614 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr Showing how unimportant the vice presidential debate was, I saw online that three Wall Street Journal reporters surveyed undecided voters in Northern Virginia afterward, and the debate swayed none of them. That's funny. After the first presidential debate, when you and others kept citing the polls you favored showing Clinton had "won," it was pointed out that the only barometer of who "won" is the impact on the polls that come later. Now, suddenly, you make the same case, that the debate only matters if there is an impact to the polls and voters. It would be simpler to just say Kaine wasn't perceived well by most normal folks watching. Trump supporters had no issue pointing out things Trump didn't do well in the first debate, or opportunities he missed. Is it so hard to admit that Kaine was brusque, rude, surly, and had trouble looking into the camera (though that may have been the camera and not Kaine)?   #155   Oct 5, '16, 11:51 am Maximilan Kolbe Banned   Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 1,614 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by YADA The murder of innocent babies is not a religious or Catholic issue any more than theft, murder of any individual, drunk driving or rape is. All of those actions are against our Catholic faith but are not "religious" nor are the laws against them an equation to imposing Catholic faith upon society. Certain issues cut to the root of general human morality engrained in all people. Opposition to rape, murder, theft and more are not religious beliefs, though one could argue they could be because there are religions that endorse all of these things in some way shape or form, and many that oppose them. For some reason, we cherry pick our social mores and label them "religious beliefs" when they become inconvenient as a way to keep doing them.   #156   Oct 5, '16, 12:02 pm Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Maximilan Kolbe That's funny. After the first presidential debate, when you and others kept citing the polls you favored showing Clinton had "won," it was pointed out that the only barometer of who "won" is the impact on the polls that come later. Now, suddenly, you make the same case, that the debate only matters if there is an impact to the polls and voters. It would be simpler to just say Kaine wasn't perceived well by most normal folks watching. Trump supporters had no issue pointing out things Trump didn't do well in the first debate, or opportunities he missed. Is it so hard to admit that Kaine was brusque, rude, surly, and had trouble looking into the camera (though that may have been the camera and not Kaine)? I wasn't trying to make the case that Kaine did a good job in this debate, only that vice presidential debates in general usually have little impact on a presidential campaign.   #157   Oct 5, '16, 2:33 pm Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr I wasn't trying to make the case that Kaine did a good job in this debate, only that vice presidential debates in general usually have little impact on a presidential campaign. When are people going to realize this is nowhere near a "normal" presidential election?   #158   Oct 5, '16, 2:43 pm Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 When are people going to realize this is nowhere near a "normal" presidential election? If anything, this vice presidential debate will make Mr. Trump look worse because people will notice how much more normal and reasonable Mr. Pence sounds in comparison. As one commentator in the Washington Post named his opinion piece on the debate, "Mike Pence gives Republicans buyer’s remorse".   #159   Oct 5, '16, 2:57 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior   Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr I wasn't trying to make the case that Kaine did a good job in this debate, only that vice presidential debates in general usually have little impact on a presidential campaign. I could be wrong and correct me if I am, but I doubt in any past presidential election there has been two candidates running for president with such unfavourables as Clinton and Trump, therefore the vice presidential debate might have more impact than in past elections.   #160   Oct 5, '16, 3:03 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is praiseworthy that one's faith be at the center of one's life. However, does that also mean that one's own faith should be at the center of the lives of others who have different faiths? I think not. Surely abortion is a religious issue. In my religion, for example, it is permissible to terminate a pregnancy under certain circumstances, including rape, incest, and severe congenital deformity according to some rabbis, who consider the psychological health of the mother. Also, if there are two babies involved and the weaker and sicker one is threatening the life of the stronger, healthier one. Moreover, it is REQUIRED to abort (not merely permissible) if the mother's life is in danger according to Orthodox Jewish teaching. The soul of the unborn is believed to enter the body, so to speak, only at birth, NOT at conception; thus, the unborn baby is not regarded as a full person until that time despite its being human. Catholic teaching on abortion is quite different. Other religions, some Protestant, others Quaker, for example, have their own views on abortion and ensoulment. Of course, individuals can have their own personal view on the issue, but let us not claim that religious teaching has no bearing or influence on those views.   #161   Oct 5, '16, 3:12 pm _Abyssinia Forum Elder Prayer Warrior   Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 21,524 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Still, 29% of debate watchers said what they saw Tuesday made them more apt to vote for Trump, compared with 18% who said it made them more likely to back Clinton. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/05/po...oll/index.html   #162   Oct 5, '16, 3:13 pm LiamQ Regular Member   Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Surely abortion is a religious issue. It can be, yes. But a lot of folks understand abortion to simply be an arbitrary taboo imposed on a person because they subscribe to a particular religion. I disagree with that perspective. I think one can be an atheist, but yet argue against abortion on purely philosophical grounds. And so, while it may be true that abortion has religious implications, those who brush it away purely on those grounds are not being particularly thorough in their examination.   #163   Oct 5, '16, 3:17 pm LiamQ Regular Member   Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy It is praiseworthy that one's faith be at the center of one's life. However, does that also mean that one's own faith should be at the center of the lives of others who have different faiths? I think not. My own issue with this is that someone who prioritizes a political office over their faith is simply being a practical secularist. In the United States, it is perfectly permissible for someone to run for a political office, but yet put their own faith above that office, and not seek to undermine their faith simply for the sake of getting votes. That's one aspect of freedom of religion. If folks don't like that politician, they don't have to vote for them. But why should a politician sell their faith out for votes? Stupid question, I know. Alas, as has been often said, many people are reinterpreting the Bill of Rights to grant freedom of worship, but not of religion. What you argue for is the former, while I continue to defend the latter.   #164   Oct 5, '16, 3:19 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ It can be, yes. But a lot of folks understand abortion to simply be an arbitrary taboo imposed on a person because they subscribe to a particular religion. I disagree with that perspective. I think one can be an atheist, but yet argue against abortion on purely philosophical grounds. And so, while it may be true that abortion has religious implications, those who brush it away purely on those grounds are not being particularly thorough in their examination. An atheist can argue for or against abortion ONLY on philosophical or moral grounds but not religious ones. However, my main point is that there are different religious teachings concerning abortion. Judaism takes the middle ground: it is opposed to abortion on demand but it does take into account mitigating factors which Catholicism does not. I would never dream of imposing my own position with regard to this most sensitive and personal issue on others who do not share it, especially if I were a public servant. I think this is what Kaine was expressing in the debate.   #165   Oct 5, '16, 3:20 pm JimG Forum Elder   Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 28,273 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Dennis Prager on abortion: moral or immoral? https://www.prageru.com/courses/poli...about-abortion     Oct 5, '16, 3:21 pm LiamQ Regular Member   Join Date: August 21, 2011 Posts: 620 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I would never dream of imposing my own position with regard to this most sensitive and personal issue on others who do not share it, especially if I were a public servant. Why not? If folks don't agree with you, they don't have to vote for you. Do you not have the freedom to practice your religion, even in public office? Or do you only have the freedom to be a Jew so long as you practice your faith in a darkened synagogue somewhere, where no one has to be "bothered" by your free religious expression? Democracy is about the majority position being the one that governs a people. Not all people have to agree with it. If politicians who were against abortion simply were open about that, and governed in that manner, the people could decide whether or not to give them power. Why doesn't Kaine seek to refuse to impose his will on any number of other things onto those who disagree with him? If I don't like his approach to taxes, am I allowed to be excluded from his position and the governance that results? Of course not. What makes abortion different?   #167   Oct 5, '16, 3:26 pm YADA Forum Supporter   Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 4,884 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Surely abortion is a religious issue. In my religion, for example, it is permissible to terminate a pregnancy under certain circumstances, including rape, incest, and severe congenital deformity according to some rabbis, who consider the psychological health of the mother. Moreover, it is REQUIRED to abort (not merely permissible) if the mother's life is in danger according to Orthodox Jewish teaching. The soul of the unborn is believed to enter the body, so to speak, only at birth, NOT at conception; thus, the unborn baby is not regarded as a full person until that time despite its being human. Catholic teaching on abortion is quite different. Other religions, some Protestant, others Quaker, for example, have their own views on abortion and ensoulment. Of course, individuals can have their own personal view on the issue, but let us not claim that religious teaching has no bearing or influence on those views. So no Jewish couple ever gets an ultrasound and say look it's a boy and his name is .... Or ..look at our baby .....see there's her feet, that's here gingers ...give me a break ..... we now have a window into the wind and scientific proof of independent DNA for the Child .... I have had those same Pro-Choice people do exactly that when showing me pictures of the children and grandchildren's ultrasounds ...it can't be a baby when you wanted and a blob of tissue when you don't. With abortion there is always the death of a human person who has been deprived of their right to life and one or more left hurting ....it's not really a religious issue it's a human and Constitutional issue __________________ Living the Journey, YADA Respect Christ - Vote Life   #168   Oct 5, '16, 3:28 pm meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by LiamQ My own issue with this is that someone who prioritizes a political office over their faith is simply being a practical secularist. In the United States, it is perfectly permissible for someone to run for a political office, but yet put their own faith above that office, and not seek to undermine their faith simply for the sake of getting votes. That's one aspect of freedom of religion. If folks don't like that politician, they don't have to vote for them. But why should a politician sell their faith out for votes? Stupid question, I know. Alas, as has been often said, many people are reinterpreting the Bill of Rights to grant freedom of worship, but not of religion. What you argue for is the former, while I continue to defend the latter. I don't see it that way. That is, I don't see Kaine prioritizing his political office over his faith. He may have a personal belief against abortion based on his Catholic faith; but he also realizes that not everyone shares that belief because they have been raised according to different religious teachings. We may disagree, which is fine, but it is wrong to accuse someone of murder when their religion does not consider it so. To me, freedom of religion is on trial here. To take another example, Quakers are opposed to all war. Catholics and Jews are not; the former have a concept known as just war, which must meet certain criteria. Do you think Quakers have the right, because they think all war is immoral, to accuse Catholics and Jews of engaging in murder when they are protecting themselves and their country in the form of self-defense? I certainly don't think they do.   #169   Oct 5, '16, 3:35 pm Jeanne S Veteran Member   Join Date: January 14, 2012 Posts: 10,814 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by JimG Dennis Prager on abortion: moral or immoral? https://www.prageru.com/courses/poli...about-abortion Dennis Prager,a voice of reason and clarity! I love the guy👍👍 I am so happy that my eighteen year old grandson,subscribes to Prager U.As a freshman and in collage,he will need all the wisdom of DP to balance out the liberal indoctrination he will be subjected to daily.😨   #170   Oct 5, '16, 7:50 pm Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Here's how important the vice presidential debate was: Quote: The televised contest between Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia and Indiana Governor Mike Pence was quickly forgotten on Wednesday as Trump and Clinton aimed fire on each other. Tuesday night’s debate, which had the lowest ratings of any such matchup since Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman’s encounter in 2000, focused entirely on the top of the ticket, and that continued as memories quickly faded of Pence and Kaine’s face-off in Farmville, Virginia. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nton-vp-debate Quote: Pence, who was widely considered to have bested Kaine in the debate, merited only the barest of nods [from Mr. Trump on Wednesday]. “The problems we face as a country are immense – and, by the way, didn’t Mike Pence do a great job?” The line did not get much of a cheer, and he did not mention his running mate again.   #171   Oct 5, '16, 8:02 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member   Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr I wasn't trying to make the case that Kaine did a good job in this debate, only that vice presidential debates in general usually have little impact on a presidential campaign. It had a big impact on me. I was ready to learn more about Kaine and thought he would give me insight into who he is. Now I find the Clinton/Kaine ticket truly frightening. I have nightmares thinking of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine in the White House. I came away from the debate seeing what the reality is. I was shocked at how mean spirited he was. Perhaps that is what happens when you join the Clinton team. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #172   Oct 5, '16, 8:13 pm Thorolfr Regular Member   Join Date: November 4, 2014 Posts: 5,628 Religion: Lutheran (ELCA) Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows It had a big impact on me. I was ready to learn more about Kaine and thought he would give me insight into who he is. Now I find the Clinton/Kaine ticket truly frightening. I have nightmares thinking of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine in the White House. I came away from the debate seeing what the reality is. I was shocked at how mean spirited he was. Perhaps that is what happens when you join the Clinton team. And isn't Mr. Trump often very mean spirited? I don't think there is any comparison between all the mean things that Mr. Trump has said and anything that Tim Kaine said.   #173   Oct 5, '16, 8:23 pm 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member   Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr And isn't Mr. Trump often very mean spirited? I don't think there is any comparison between all the mean things that Mr. Trump has said and anything that Tim Kaine said. Trump has been in the media spotlight for so many years and over the top remarks have been made by him because of his celebrity and part of his life in show business. Tim Kaine has been a governor and a senator - he has political experience and I saw him as a different kind of person since he is Catholic. But then I remember Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and I just guess I expected something different from him. He came across rude and next to Pence, he was blown out of the water! __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #174   Oct 5, '16, 8:41 pm Millie123 Regular Member   Join Date: December 4, 2011 Posts: 773 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows Trump has been in the media spotlight for so many years and over the top remarks have been made by him because of his celebrity and part of his life in show business. Tim Kaine has been a governor and a senator - he has political experience and I saw him as a different kind of person since he is Catholic. But then I remember Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and I just guess I expected something different from him. He came across rude and next to Pence, he was blown out of the water! In all honesty, the amount of nastiness that has been thrown between both sides of the aisle in this election really shouldn't surprise anyone. In the beginning of the election it truly disturbed me, but now, as you point out, other candidates are being rude it just fills me up with numbness and not indignation. From the primaries up to now. Between Trump insinuating that Magan Kelly had blood coming out of her "whatever", to his treatment of the Kahn family. And Rubio insinuating that Trumps small hand size was an indication that some other "private part" of his is also small. To Hillary calling Trumps supporters a basket of deplorables. And now, as you say, Kaines treatment of Pence as being rude. I've been complaining for nearly a year now over the nasty tone of this election. But, my concerns have been dismissed, because Trumps unconventional non-politically correct tone...is what the public who voted for him wanted. But, now, a month away from the election, people are complaing about Kaine being rude to Pence? Seriously? Its almost like the pot calling the kettle black.   #175   Oct 6, '16, 1:55 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Thorolfr And isn't Mr. Trump often very mean spirited? I don't think there is any comparison between all the mean things that Mr. Trump has said and anything that Tim Kaine said. There is a huge difference between "mean spirited" and blunt. If you ask how much 2+3 equals, if the correct answer causes difficulty, that doesn't change that the answer is five. Trump only just got started in June of last year. The other 16 candidates had long careers in politics, except for Ben Carson who did a lot of writing and public speaking. The other 16 were smooth. Trump looked around at the current state of the United States ... destructive tax policy, porous southern border, potential imbalance in the Supreme Court, bad treatment of veterans, etc ... and decided that talking smoothly and beating around the bush ... just no longer conveyed the severity of the message. So, Trump decided to speak plainly and to match rhetoric with those who attacked him. So, what happened? The voters of the United States selected him as the nominee of the Republican Party, which has been unused to confrontation and bluntness ... to be conciliatory instead of answering accusations, to "take the high road" ... to adopt a different standard ... a "higher" standard ... which resulted in the Republicans losing one election after another and losing points in the polls. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #176   Oct 6, '16, 2:09 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I don't see it that way. That is, I don't see Kaine prioritizing his political office over his faith. He may have a personal belief against abortion based on his Catholic faith; but he also realizes that not everyone shares that belief because they have been raised according to different religious teachings. We may disagree, which is fine, but it is wrong to accuse someone of murder when their religion does not consider it so. To me, freedom of religion is on trial here. To take another example, Quakers are opposed to all war. Catholics and Jews are not; the former have a concept known as just war, which must meet certain criteria. Do you think Quakers have the right, because they think all war is immoral, to accuse Catholics and Jews of engaging in murder when they are protecting themselves and their country in the form of self-defense? I certainly don't think they do. Quakers have the right to speak out and debate their position as vigorously as they choose to do. There are other religious minorities that open things such as Christian Science Reading Rooms. They also publish magazines and newspapers. The Christian Science Monitor is HIGHLY regarded. Some go door-to-door explaining their positions. Some of my friends are Mormons who I met when they rang my doorbell and I invited them and and continue to welcome them. Similarly, there are many other groups that I welcome when they knock on the door. I worry about them when the weather is really hot out and have offered them refreshments. Jehovah's Witnesses are growing rapidly. There are famous street corners where at lunch hour EVERYONE is out there, literally standing on soap boxes, debating their points of view. Some have radio stations ... just dial your radio and sample the spectrum of opinions. There is a local fellow whose biblical quotes are fabulously well selected and offer a wonderful resource. Tom Cruise is an outspoken advocate for the Church of Scientology and its associated social programs. AND, Catholic Answers was formed by Karl Keating because of a perceived gap in knowledge. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth. Last edited by Monte RCMS; Oct 6, '16 at 2:24 am.   #177   Oct 6, '16, 2:27 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS Keep visualizing the porous border, no more NRA. and much higher taxes. Trump continuously goes back to the basic issues: 1) Supreme Court Justices ... left wing appointees would permanently tilt the United States to the left. 2) Southern Border is porous ... right now there is no one stopping the flood of undocumented people AND HEROIN entering the United States. 3) The U. S. tax structure is the worst in the developed world. 4) Veterans are getting terrible treatment from the Veterans Administration. Trump has a many years record and reputation of actively supporting veterans. 5) U.S. Foreign Policy is a disaster. [Most recent example: $400 $1200+ MILLION in CASH flown to Iran under conditions of secrecy. If it was legitimate, they would do an electronic transfer. And that's just the latest.] 6) Radical Islamic Terrorism is uncontested. 7) Second Amendment. Gun control only controls law abiding citizens. Inner city crime and gang crime and black-on-black crime is/are epidemic. Getting worse and worse. 8) The economy. Record numbers of people on food stamps. People forced into part-time work owing to restrictions by government controlled medical legislation. Make participation in government controlled medical to be optional: if you can find a better and/or cheaper plan then take it. 9) Restrictions on religion. Freedom of Worship instead of freedom of religion. Mandatory Islam lessons in schools [as now in places] [Example: Why should the Little Sisters of the Poor be forced to purchase contraception?] [Example: Why should someone who posted dissection of aborted babies be prosecuted?] ... read p37 0f the DNC platform. https://www.demconvention.com/wp-con...6-no-lines.pdf 10) Education: The United States ranks around 27th in math. WHY???? 11) U.S. Military is not being kept up to date. Navy is behind in technology and numbers and readiness. Aircraft are kept going using parts from the boneyard instead of buying new stuff. Troops are not training enough. Focus on social changes. 12) Continued inner city collapse. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants were born to single mothers. In 2013, 72 percent of black infants were born to single mothers. Source: page 157, "Con Job" by Crystal Wright. "Con Job -- How Democrats Gave Us Crime, Sanctuary Cities, Abortion Profiteering, and Racial Division". Crystal Wright's Web site is www.conservativeblackchick.com Important to maintain our focus. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #178   Oct 6, '16, 3:17 am lmachine Regular Member   Join Date: March 8, 2016 Posts: 1,997 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS If you ask how much 2+3 equals, if the correct answer causes difficulty, that doesn't change that the answer is five. Absolutely. When Tim Kaine claims that Donald Trump said X, and Mike Pence denies that Trump said X despite bountiful recorded evidence that Trump said X, we know which of the candidates is truthful.   #179   Oct 6, '16, 3:18 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,561 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS Important to maintain our focus. Most of these issues are not concerns of the federal government.   #180   Oct 6, '16, 4:21 am Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by lmachine Absolutely. When Tim Kaine claims that Donald Trump said X, and Mike Pence denies that Trump said X despite bountiful recorded evidence that Trump said X, we know which of the candidates is truthful. Shouldn't defend statements taken out of context.      Oct 6, '16, 4:44 am Maximilan Kolbe Banned   Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 1,614 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy I don't see it that way. That is, I don't see Kaine prioritizing his political office over his faith. He may have a personal belief against abortion based on his Catholic faith; but he also realizes that not everyone shares that belief because they have been raised according to different religious teachings. We may disagree, which is fine, but it is wrong to accuse someone of murder when their religion does not consider it so. To me, freedom of religion is on trial here. To take another example, Quakers are opposed to all war. Catholics and Jews are not; the former have a concept known as just war, which must meet certain criteria. Do you think Quakers have the right, because they think all war is immoral, to accuse Catholics and Jews of engaging in murder when they are protecting themselves and their country in the form of self-defense? I certainly don't think they do. You realize this can't be true, unless he doesn't understand the science, right? We believe abortion is the killing of a child, as does he, if he is personally opposed, for why else would he be opposed, if it was not? Take the word abortion away for a second. Look at the cognitive dissonance it would take for Kaine to not be bothered by one of the following: rape torturing a homosexual burning a Catholic at the stake killing a child molesting an animal When lumped together, all horrific acts. Yet one of these he believes, despite his proclamation of being opposed, and despite his own religion, which he claims to endorse and take seriously, is okay because the law allows it? If there was personal opposition, he would work to change the laws. But in today's Democratic party, he cannot unless he wants to wield no power. If folks treated slavery the same way he treats abortion, we'd still be a slave owning nation. That's terrible.   #182   Oct 6, '16, 5:13 am Mary Gail 36 Forum Elder   Join Date: September 5, 2005 Posts: 17,436 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by meltzerboy Surely abortion is a religious issue. In my religion, for example, it is permissible to terminate a pregnancy under certain circumstances, including rape, incest, and severe congenital deformity according to some rabbis, who consider the psychological health of the mother. Also, if there are two babies involved and the weaker and sicker one is threatening the life of the stronger, healthier one. Moreover, it is REQUIRED to abort (not merely permissible) if the mother's life is in danger according to Orthodox Jewish teaching. The soul of the unborn is believed to enter the body, so to speak, only at birth, NOT at conception; thus, the unborn baby is not regarded as a full person until that time despite its being human. Catholic teaching on abortion is quite different. Other religions, some Protestant, others Quaker, for example, have their own views on abortion and ensoulment. Of course, individuals can have their own personal view on the issue, but let us not claim that religious teaching has no bearing or influence on those views. I'll be off topic for this thread, but I did want to ask for clarification about something. What type of specific scenario would call for a required abortion, when currently in many scenarios both can be saved. My youngest child was born about 12 weeks early. Both our lives were in danger due to a placental abruption. He was born early and then the placental abription was resolved. I can't imagine a scenario where the mom would have to terminate a pregnancy so late when both could be saved. __________________ Jesus, protect and save the unborn. The Word became flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that He has from the Father as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.   #183   Oct 6, '16, 5:16 am Michael68 Banned   Join Date: August 17, 2015 Posts: 5,225 Religion: Cradle Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Mike Pence was ready to discuss the issues and alll Tim Kaine has is a silly list!   #184   Oct 6, '16, 5:43 am 7 Sorrows Forum Elder Greeter Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter Book Club Member   Join Date: September 23, 2008 Posts: 43,865 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Michael68 Mike Pence was ready to discuss the issues and alll Tim Kaine has is a silly list! He had his scripted answers ready. __________________ You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb. (13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139   #185   Oct 6, '16, 7:11 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 Most of these issues are not concerns of the federal government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see #10 as being the only issue that shouldn't be under the jurisdiction of the federal government. __________________ Christine   #186   Oct 6, '16, 7:15 am DeniseNY Senior Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: November 30, 2011 Posts: 8,073 Religion: Byzantine Catholic ☦ Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see #10 as being the only issue that shouldn't be under the jurisdiction of the federal government. I think #12 is something that should be left to local and state governments. __________________ Thank you, St. Jude! Patron of hopeless and impossible cases! http://www.shrineofstjude.org/site/P...e=ssj_homepage Please support the cause for the Beatification and Canonization of Rhoda Wise: http://rhodawise.com/   #187   Oct 6, '16, 7:28 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,561 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by DeniseNY I think #12 is something that should be left to local and state governments. #8 is not a responsibility of the federal government.   #188   Oct 6, '16, 7:40 am meltzerboy Forum Elder   Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 26,636 Religion: Jewish Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36 I'll be off topic for this thread, but I did want to ask for clarification about something. What type of specific scenario would call for a required abortion, when currently in many scenarios both can be saved. My youngest child was born about 12 weeks early. Both our lives were in danger due to a placental abruption. He was born early and then the placental abription was resolved. I can't imagine a scenario where the mom would have to terminate a pregnancy so late when both could be saved. If both mother and child can be saved, then of course every effort should be made to do so, according to Jewish law. But in the event, however rare, that the mother's life is imminently threatened if she carries her baby to term, then her life takes precedence and the baby's life must be forfeited, even late in pregnancy, according to Orthodox Jewish teaching. Interestingly, I don't think the same requirement applies in Conservative or Reform Judaism so that the mother is permitted to choose to continue her pregnancy despite the imminent danger to her own life. A given Orthodox Jewish woman can, of course, make a personal decision to continue her pregnancy despite the life-threatening risk, thus going against Jewish law.   #189   Oct 6, '16, 8:07 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 #8 is not a responsibility of the federal government. I think #8 is telling the government to get out of the excessive regulations. Quote: 8) The economy. Record numbers of people on food stamps. People forced into part-time work owing to restrictions by government controlled medical legislation. Make participation in government controlled medical to be optional: if you can find a better and/or cheaper plan then take it. __________________ Christine   #190   Oct 6, '16, 8:32 am qui est ce Prayer Warrior Forum Supporter   Join Date: July 5, 2005 Posts: 13,285 Religion: Catholic Christian Latin Rite Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36 I'll be off topic for this thread, but I did want to ask for clarification about something. What type of specific scenario would call for a required abortion, when currently in many scenarios both can be saved. My youngest child was born about 12 weeks early. Both our lives were in danger due to a placental abruption. He was born early and then the placental abription was resolved. I can't imagine a scenario where the mom would have to terminate a pregnancy so late when both could be saved. What an amazing story. God bless you. That must have been quite an ordeal. Thank you for sharing. __________________ Christine   #191   Oct 6, '16, 8:37 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 Most of these issues are not concerns of the federal government. The Federal government is involved in ALL of these issues. Maybe the Feds should not be, but they are. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #192   Oct 6, '16, 8:52 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by qui est ce I think #8 is telling the government to get out of the excessive regulations. #8 ... medical care IS now controlled by the Federal government. The government should not be. But it is. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #193   Oct 6, '16, 9:46 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,561 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS #8 ... medical care IS now controlled by the Federal government. The government should not be. But it is. We have had socialized medicine for over 50 years and the republicans have done nothing to reduce socialized medicine. Which is why the biggest con game in the world is when republicans try and portray themselves as the party of small government.   #194   Oct 6, '16, 10:35 am Monte RCMS Forum Master   Join Date: November 9, 2008 Posts: 14,658 Religion: Roman Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by stinkcat_14 We have had socialized medicine for over 50 years and the republicans have done nothing to reduce socialized medicine. Which is why the biggest con game in the world is when republicans try and portray themselves as the party of small government. The government controls medical care on indian reservations and on military installations and at the Veterans Administration ... BUT ... with respect to "socialized medicine"? ... NO! The Federal government allowed medical insurance to be awarded to employees as a "fringe benefit" during World War Two ... because of wage and price controls. Later, the Federal government made employee medical insurance deductible as an expense ... but individuals could shop for their own medical insurance. None of this is socialized medicine. The government could allow all medical costs to be a tax deduction and/or a tax credit for all. HCFA "could" improve reimbursements. __________________ Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be created. And You will renew the face of the earth.   #195   Oct 6, '16, 10:37 am stinkcat_14 Veteran Member   Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 10,561 Religion: Catholic Re: Mike Pence and Tim Kaine to clash in vice presidential debate Quote: Originally Posted by Monte RCMS The government controls medical care on indian reservations and on military installations and at the Veterans Administration ... BUT ... with respect to "socialized medicine"? ... NO! The Federal government allowed medical insurance to be awarded to employees as a "fringe benefit" during World War Two ... because of wage and price controls. Later, the Federal government made employee medical insurance deductible as an expense ... but individuals could shop for their own medical insurance. None of this is socialized medicine. Medicare is socialized medicine.