Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
It is hard to argue against the killing
of 100,000 people at once but support the killing of that many every
month, one baby at a time.
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Praying for anyone who might find it difficult to argue the
tragedy of the loss of ANY single life because of the loss of another
single or even million lives, for any reason.
May 28, '16, 7:36 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo520
Yes, morally evolving requires an honest
self assessment. The "comfort women" were just one aspect of the
atrocities visited upon Korea by Japan during the many years of
occupation, when Korea was their slave colony.
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So, because of the indiscretion of the Japanese government leading
to the inexcusable death of thousands in their misguided conquest, the
incineration of thousands of innocent people is somehow excusable? We
sure taught the emperor and military leadership of Japan a lesson by
killing hundreds of families who were also victims of the war, huh? 
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May 28, '16, 7:39 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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May 28, '16, 7:56 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicAMMO
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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May God keep you safe. God bless and thank you for your service.
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May 28, '16, 7:57 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicAMMO
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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Praying for you and your family as you go back overseas. God bless you and God bless America. 
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Christ is Risen! Alleluia! Alleluia!
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May 28, '16, 8:11 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
The liberal agenda has nothing to do with making things better, it's all about CONTROL!
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May 28, '16, 8:18 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicAMMO
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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Praying for you. 
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May 28, '16, 9:01 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGodsBidding
If morally evolving includes abortion on
demand, same sex "marriage" and other affronts to God I will pass. I
choose to remain true to our Lord and Savior. "As for me and my
household, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15.
DGB
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You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
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May 28, '16, 9:04 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicAMMO
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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Thanks for your service! Praying for you!
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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May 28, '16, 9:13 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
So, because of the indiscretion of the
Japanese government leading to the inexcusable death of thousands in
their misguided conquest, the incineration of thousands of innocent
people is somehow excusable? We sure taught the emperor and military
leadership of Japan a lesson by killing hundreds of families who were
also victims of the war, huh? |
I suggest you study some history, our bombing was before the war ended, it greatly aided in stopping the war.
We did not enslave or punish civilians after the war ended. Any post
conflict punishment was directed at the military leadership for their
atrocities.
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FACTS MATTER!
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May 28, '16, 11:26 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo520
I suggest you study some history, our bombing was before the war ended, it greatly aided in stopping the war.
We did not enslave or punish civilians after the war ended. Any post
conflict punishment was directed at the military leadership for their
atrocities.
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Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my degree is in History,
I'll be sure to let my professors know they should contact you for
better scholastic insight.... that being said, the bombing of Nagasaki
and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war, as Japan was weeks from
surrender, but to shut the door before the Soviets joined the fight
which would have resulted in giving them control of much of Asia as they
gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of the Nazis...so, we agree Facts
do matter.
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May 28, '16, 11:43 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my
degree is in History, I'll be sure to let my professors know they
should contact you for better scholastic insight.... that being said,
the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war,
as Japan was weeks from surrender, but to shut the door before the
Soviets joined the fight which would have resulted in giving them
control of much of Asia as they gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of
the Nazis...so, we agree Facts do matter.
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didn't they have a chance to surrender before the bombs were dropped?
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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May 28, '16, 11:47 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my
degree is in History, I'll be sure to let my professors know they
should contact you for better scholastic insight.... that being said,
the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war,
as Japan was weeks from surrender, but to shut the door before the
Soviets joined the fight which would have resulted in giving them
control of much of Asia as they gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of
the Nazis...so, we agree Facts do matter.
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The Manchuria campaign which you are referencing is not generally
well known it would seem .i studied history at college (although not
university) and it was passed over very quickly in the section on WW2
history. I'm not sure I'd agree Japan was mere weeks from surrender but
I'd definitely agree that the surprising speed of the Soviet campaign in
Manchuria was a consideration in the minds of the US politicians and
military figures of the era.
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May 28, '16, 12:42 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my
degree is in History, I'll be sure to let my professors know they
should contact you for better scholastic insight.... that being said,
the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war,
as Japan was weeks from surrender, but to shut the door before the
Soviets joined the fight which would have resulted in giving them
control of much of Asia as they gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of
the Nazis...so, we agree Facts do matter.
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Indeed they do. Japan was not preparing to surrender, at any
foreseeable time in the future, in early August 1945. The control of
that decision (barring an intervention by the Emperor, which is what
happened, at the 2nd kozen kaigan) on 10 July) was in the hands of the Saiko Senso Shido Kaigi ,
which was controlled by the hard-line Gen. Anami, the Minister of War.
The history is detailed and voluminous and has been a particular hobby
of mine for over 26 years. Recommended reading: Frank/DOWNFALL: THE END
OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE EMPIRE, Newman/ TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT,
Miscamble/THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL DECISION, Maddox/ (ed.)/ HIROSHIMA IN
HISTORY, and his WEAPONS FOR VICTORY. Kort's THE COLUMBIA GUIDE TO
HIROSHIMA AND THE BOMB is a good overview and is comprised, more than
50%, of original documents. Frank is essential. That's from my
collection of over 120 titles on the subject and near related matters
such as the invasion plans. More suggested reading, from all
perspectives, is available.
A brief observation and summary. Reductionist thinking on the reason for
the bombs use is illusory, as you understand. The bottom line was to
achieve the quickest end to the war, with the least bloodshed. Other
than by us surrendering to them, that is. And it was what happened.
Discussion of this subject occurs frequently here, and usually takes one
of two (or sometimes both) approaches. One is to look at the morality
and discuss that, in terms of general or specific teachings. The other
is to add "and anyway..." excursions into the history. As long as it is
in the first case, I don't participate. I have my own view of the
morality and am not interested in discussing it. When it drifts into
history, I do. Over 8-9 years I think I've posted around 600 times on
the subject. Gets tiring.
Last edited by GKC; May 28, '16 at 12:55 pm.
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May 28, '16, 12:46 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
The Manchuria campaign which you are
referencing is not generally well known it would seem .i studied history
at college (although not university) and it was passed over very
quickly in the section on WW2 history. I'm not sure I'd agree Japan was
mere weeks from surrender but I'd definitely agree that the surprising
speed of the Soviet campaign in Manchuria was a consideration in the
minds of the US politicians and military figures of the era.
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And in Sakhalin, and the Kuriles. And it cost, in the roughly 3
weeks it lasted (past the official Japanese surrender, that is), around
90,000 casualties. A forecast of what an invaded Japan could achieve, as
to the butchers bill.
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May 28, '16, 12:54 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
didn't they have a chance to surrender before the bombs were dropped?
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Yes, to the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. Which, pressured by
the Anami hardliners, they met with, on 28 July, in Prime Minister
Suzuki's unfortunate term, mokusatsu, silent contempt.
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May 28, '16, 1:02 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Yes, to the terms of the Potsdam
Declaration. Which, pressured by the Anami hardliners, they met with, on
28 July, in Prime Minister Suzuki's unfortunate term, mokusatsu, silent contempt.
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and there was also a chance to surender after the first bomb was dropped.
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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May 28, '16, 1:02 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
And in Sakhalin, and the Kuriles. And it
cost, in the roughly 3 weeks it lasted (past the official Japanese
surrender, that is), around 90,000 casualties. A forecast of what an
invaded Japan could achieve, as to the butchers bill.
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Considering by that point the Soviets had lost around 9 million
men I believe they would have been willing to pay the price, as it is
they do still control quite a bit of territory that Japan keeps asking
for back. I side with the standard view that the Japanese having never
been conquered in a land war by an invader would have fought bitterly to
the last and that it would have been a slogging match with all sides
trading blows for potentially years. The campaign in Manchuria involved
troops that as I recall were hardly the top notch forces in the Imperial
Army although the Soviet speed of advance was still far greater than
they expected.
My view is the atomic bombs were a horrible, ghastly weapon but then so
to were the firestorm bombings that occurred. The main difference of
course was the latter involved many planes and not just one bomb. The
Japanese had no way of knowing that the US would have taken time to
produce a steady supply of more atomic weapons at that point or they
might have decided to still go on fighting.
I sadly suspect mankind has learnt nothing from the era and that we will
all sooner or late perish in nuclear fire but then I am by nature not
an optimist.
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May 28, '16, 1:10 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Historiography is living not static. Explaining events in 20th century
US history with dated historiography from the of Consensus History
school of thought is like trying to use DOS as a means to explain how a
computer you bought just today works.
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May 28, '16, 1:11 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my
degree is in History, I'll be sure to let my professors know they
should contact you for better scholastic insight.... that being said,
the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war,
as Japan was weeks from surrender, but to shut the door before the
Soviets joined the fight which would have resulted in giving them
control of much of Asia as they gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of
the Nazis...so, we agree Facts do matter.
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So you are admitting the order of things:
- the war was going full tilt
- we bombed Japan
- they surrendered
Perhaps you are thinking we should have fought more as gentlemen, if you
knock them down, give em a chance to get up and shake it off, before
taking another swing?
In boxing the idea is to go for a knock out punch, and we did try to get them to surrender before dropping the second bomb.
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FACTS MATTER!
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May 28, '16, 1:16 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Historiography is living not static.
Explaining events in 20th century US history with dated historiography
from the of Consensus History school of thought is like trying to use
DOS as a means to explain how a computer you bought just today works.
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Consensus history, this is one of those terms that fills me with
horror, much like partnership instead of marriage and horrific words
like relationship. DOS would still have a great deal of relevance to the
history of computing if not so much to how a computer you purchased
today functions, even then it would still have some relevance.
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May 28, '16, 1:23 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Considering by that point the Soviets had
lost around 9 million men I believe they would have been willing to pay
the price, as it is they do still control quite a bit of territory that
Japan keeps asking for back. I side with the standard view that the
Japanese having never been conquered in a land war by an invader would
have fought bitterly to the last and that it would have been a slogging
match with all sides trading blows for potentially years. The campaign
in Manchuria involved troops that as I recall were hardly the top notch
forces in the Imperial Army although the Soviet speed of advance was
still far greater than they expected.
My view is the atomic bombs were a horrible, ghastly weapon but then so
to were the firestorm bombings that occurred. The main difference of
course was the latter involved many planes and not just one bomb. The
Japanese had no way of knowing that the US would have taken time to
produce a steady supply of more atomic weapons at that point or they
might have decided to still go on fighting.
I sadly suspect mankind has learnt nothing from the era and that we will
all sooner or late perish in nuclear fire but then I am by nature not
an optimist.
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The Soviets would certainly have paid the price, to put another
iron curtain on their western exposure. To have affected the invasion of
the Home Islands, though, they would have needed sea lift support, even
to reach Hokkaido. That is, it would have taken our assistance.
The Kwantung Army had been stripped of roughly half its strength, and of
the first line units, to reinforce the defense of the Pacific islands,
and also their holdings in SEA.
The Japanese were indeed uncertain as to how many bombs we might have
had. One guess, after Hiroshima, was "One". This was encouraging, for
about 4 days, when we proved we had two. Anami, the ultimate hardliner,
went mildly bipolar at that point,saying "They may have a hundred of the
things". We didn't, of course; we had 3. And would have had around 6-7
more, by 1 Nov, the date set for OLYMPIC. In which Marshall was
formulating a distressing use for them.
One bomb. One plane. Concentrated the mind wonderfully.
As to your last para, I'm not so sure.
Last edited by GKC; May 28, '16 at 1:34 pm.
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May 28, '16, 1:28 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Historiography is living not static.
Explaining events in 20th century US history with dated historiography
from the of Consensus History school of thought is like trying to use
DOS as a means to explain how a computer you bought just today works.
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A grounding in what went on is useful, though, as to conclusions.
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May 28, '16, 1:32 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
and there was also a chance to surender after the first bomb was dropped.
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Yep.
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May 28, '16, 1:34 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Given the number of Soviet veterans in my extended family and given that
many of them might well have ended up chucked in to such an invasion
I'm rather glad that the campaign fizzled out. As the campaign by the
Soviets involved transporting tanks I imagine quite a few family members
might well have ended up there as the part of Russia one side of my
family is from was churning out tanks at a huge rate. The city my wife
is from is nicknamed 'Tankograd' as a result of that and the city has a
main park where there is a square with about a hundred tanks and
armoured vehicles from the WW2 era lined up as an open air museum.
The Soviets apparently thought the Japanese tanks were atrociously bad
I've been told by family members who served in WW2 and did end up in
Manchuria briefly. 'Like paper', was one description of their
resilience.
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May 28, '16, 1:50 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
It's very easy to be moralistic when you have no skin in the game. If
Obama was an 18 y.o. getting ready for Operation Olympic (the planned
invasion of the Japanese homeland) or had an 18 y.o. child doing the
same, or if he'd been a native resident of one of the regions the
Japanese were still occupying I doubt he would have had very many qualms
about dropping the atom bombs. Thousands of people were dying every day
the war continued, not just Americans and Japanese. Every month the war
continued was the equivalent of multiple Hiroshimas.
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May 28, '16, 2:10 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
The Soviets apparently thought the
Japanese tanks were atrociously bad I've been told by family members who
served in WW2 and did end up in Manchuria briefly. 'Like paper', was
one description of their resilience.
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Yea, Japan logically threw all efforts into their Navy and
Airforce. They didn't need big tanks for their Asian conquests, they
were fighting infantry with little armor.
.
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FACTS MATTER!
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May 28, '16, 2:10 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfengr
It's very easy to be moralistic when you
have no skin in the game. If Obama was an 18 y.o. getting ready for
Operation Olympic (the planned invasion of the Japanese homeland) or had
an 18 y.o. child doing the same, or if he'd been a native resident of
one of the regions the Japanese were still occupying I doubt he would
have had very many qualms about dropping the atom bombs. Thousands of
people were dying every day the war continued, not just Americans and
Japanese. Every month the war continued was the equivalent of multiple
Hiroshimas.
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OLYMPIC was the first planned invasion, of Kyushu.To be followed by CORNET, of Honshu. Collectively, they were DOWNFALL.
The overall casualty rate for the PTO was around 200,000+ per month.
Figures vary, from 100,000 plus, to 300,000, depending on source cited.
No argument with your point.
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May 28, '16, 2:12 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Given the number of Soviet veterans in my
extended family and given that many of them might well have ended up
chucked in to such an invasion I'm rather glad that the campaign fizzled
out. As the campaign by the Soviets involved transporting tanks I
imagine quite a few family members might well have ended up there as the
part of Russia one side of my family is from was churning out tanks at a
huge rate. The city my wife is from is nicknamed 'Tankograd' as a
result of that and the city has a main park where there is a square with
about a hundred tanks and armoured vehicles from the WW2 era lined up
as an open air museum.
The Soviets apparently thought the Japanese tanks were atrociously bad
I've been told by family members who served in WW2 and did end up in
Manchuria briefly. 'Like paper', was one description of their
resilience.
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Japanese tanks were atrociously bad, compared to US or Soviet ones.
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May 28, '16, 2:17 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo520
Yea, Japan logically threw all efforts
into their Navy and Airforce. They didn't need big tanks for their Asian
conquests, they were fighting infantry with little armor.
.
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Indeed, most of the powers they fought in those conquests had very
dated military inventories. I can't really see how the war could have
ended differently, the Japanese were conditioned by their own historical
narratives to not surrender at any cost, only the use of a weapon never
seen before forced an end in such short order. It is difficult to see
any other path which would not have led to even more death and
suffering.
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May 28, '16, 2:20 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Indeed, most of the powers they fought in
those conquests had very dated military inventories. I can't really see
how the war could have ended differently, the Japanese were conditioned
by their own historical narratives to not surrender at any cost, only
the use of a weapon never seen before forced an end in such short order.
It is difficult to see any other path which would not have led to even
more death and suffering.
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Agreed.
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May 28, '16, 2:21 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Japanese tanks were atrociously bad, compared to US or Soviet ones.
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My own view of the whole horrible period is that I cannot
ultimately see any other path the USA could have taken. It was a foul
business for everyone and one of mankind's low points but I can't see
any option besides using the atom bomb if you or I were put in command
of US forces via time travel tomorrow. I would certainly if standing at
the bomb site though offer up a prayer for all the dead as 'The very act
of war is itself a defeat'.
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May 28, '16, 2:29 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
My own view of the whole horrible period
is that I cannot ultimately see any other path the USA could have taken.
It was a foul business for everyone and one of mankind's low points but
I can't see any option besides using the atom bomb if you or I were put
in command of US forces via time travel tomorrow. I would certainly if
standing at the bomb site though offer up a prayer for all the dead as
'The very act of war is itself a defeat'.
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Ending one is a victory of sorts. If wars cannot be made to
cease,to the ends of the earth, generally, a given war should be made to
cease, precipitously.
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May 28, '16, 2:43 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Fascism is a nihilistic, barbaric world view that needed to be stopped
before it destroyed the world. Japanese fascism was particularly brutal
and their military was in effect a demonic cult of sadism.
America was a nation that was capable then of making the hard decisions
in order to annihilate fascism from the face of the earth.
Japan is a much better country because of that hard decision. Because of
America, Japan is among the most honorable and peaceful nations on
earth, a real beacon of the possibilities that become available for
those who choose freedom.
Obama's vague speech does not reflect the kind of America that could
emerge victorious over the evil of fascism.He is a product of the
morally equivalent world of the left. In such a world, even the absolute
evil of fascist Japan is being forgotten.
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May 28, '16, 2:47 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Sorrows
and there was also a chance to surender after the first bomb was dropped.
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The cultural differences between the US and Japan were profound.
Even after the second bomb and the decision by the emperor to surrender,
there was a coup attempt so the military could continue to fight.
We were facing suicide bombers with no chance to win the war, and a
Japanese army that murdered its own civilians on Okinawa who refused to
commit suicide.
What we did not know at the time is that the Japanese were trying to
develop their own atomic bomb and had received a cargo of uranium oxide
by submarine from a dying Third Reich. Is there any doubt that they
would have used an atomic weapon if given the time to develop it?
Some other facts that get overlooked include that it was not even
certain the bomb would work. There were two different designs and only
one had been tested, and that was from a tower in New Mexico. Bombing
accuracy was so bad that Nagasaki had fewer deaths because the bomb
missed its target by more than a mile. As horrible as it was, atomic
bombs did about the same amount of damage as the mass firebombing of
Tokyo and Dresden that had already occurred, but had not produced an
unconditional surrender.
I am not arguing for the use of modern nuclear weapons that are far more
lethal than the crude atomic bombs of 1945. I just want to point out
how wrong it is for people to judge the actions of 1945 as if they knew
what we know 70 years later.
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May 28, '16, 3:14 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliam
President Obama came face to face with
the horror of nuclear war Friday in a somber visit to Hiroshima,
becoming the first sitting U.S. president to tour the site of the atomic
bombing 71 years ago that killed tens of thousands in an instant and
ushered in the nuclear age.
In a sweeping address that reflected on the obligations of humankind,
Obama wrestled with the inherent contradiction that centuries of
technical advancement have both made it easier to bind people together
and given them the capacity for the carnage seen in this city. And he
confronted the cold reality that his own goal of a world without nuclear
firepower remains frustratingly out of reach.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-o...nap-story.html |
Japan got exactly what it deserved. Obama was wrong for going there. BTW, thanks to him, Iran will have the bomb in ten years.
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May 28, '16, 3:41 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
The cultural differences between the US
and Japan were profound. Even after the second bomb and the decision by
the emperor to surrender, there was a coup attempt so the military could
continue to fight.
We were facing suicide bombers with no chance to win the war, and a
Japanese army that murdered its own civilians on Okinawa who refused to
commit suicide.
What we did not know at the time is that the Japanese were trying to
develop their own atomic bomb and had received a cargo of uranium oxide
by submarine from a dying Third Reich. Is there any doubt that they
would have used an atomic weapon if given the time to develop it?
Some other facts that get overlooked include that it was not even
certain the bomb would work. There were two different designs and only
one had been tested, and that was from a tower in New Mexico. Bombing
accuracy was so bad that Nagasaki had fewer deaths because the bomb
missed its target by more than a mile. As horrible as it was, atomic
bombs did about the same amount of damage as the mass firebombing of
Tokyo and Dresden that had already occurred, but had not produced an
unconditional surrender.
I am not arguing for the use of modern nuclear weapons that are far more
lethal than the crude atomic bombs of 1945. I just want to point out
how wrong it is for people to judge the actions of 1945 as if they knew
what we know 70 years later.
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This is mostly correct.
Japan's effort to develop nuclear weapons is discussed in Wilcox's
JAPAN'S SECRET WAR. The attempt to deliver the uranium oxide, via U-234,
was a failure. U-234 surrendered to the Allies 14 May, 1945, in the
eastern Atlantic. Japan's development programs were moribund by that
time.
The abortive coup attempt is classically covered in JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY (The Pacific War Research Society).
Okinawa has some such atrocities, but the classic case occurred on Saipan.
The uranium bomb (Little Boy), used on Hiroshima) was not tested for two
reasons: a paucity of enriched uranium, and the simplicity of its
design, which gave authorities the confidence to pass on the test. But
yes, whether the bomb would work, and what it might result in, were nail
biting questions, until 5 August,1800 feet over Hiroshima.
The Fat Man design, far more complex and challenging, but using more
abundant plutonium, was another matter. Hence, TRINITY, in July.
Bombing accuracy was a variable. At Hiroshima, it was superb. As Tibbets
said, they had the best aiming point he had ever seen, the T shaped
Aioi Bridge, and a clear day. Bomb exploded less than 1000 feet away.
At Nagasaki, it was a different situation. Nagasaki was not the original
target, which was Kokura, which was obscured by clouds and smoke. The
bombing rules required a visual drop, not a radar drop. Sweeney (the
aircraft AC) made for the alternate target, Nagasaki. Which was also
heavily obscured. He made 2 passes, futilely, looking for an opening. On
a 3rd pass, he had decided to violate the rules and drop by radar, when
the bombardier said he had a visual fix on an alternate drop point. And
took it. The bomb detonated a couple of miles off the original target
and some distance from the alternate aim point. The configuration of the
terrain, plus the fact it was dropped over a less densely populated
area, reduced the casualties.
I agree with the thrust of your post.
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May 28, '16, 3:44 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
I really like this commentary from the Fars News Agency. Possibly not
the most unbiased news source in the world, but they definitely have
more than a little experience with, and insight into, U.S. Nuclear
hypocrisy. Plus, every word rings true.
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950308001489
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May 28, '16, 4:35 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Indeed, most of the powers they fought in
those conquests had very dated military inventories. I can't really see
how the war could have ended differently, the Japanese were conditioned
by their own historical narratives to not surrender at any cost, only
the use of a weapon never seen before forced an end in such short order.
It is difficult to see any other path which would not have led to even
more death and suffering.
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Most people mention a few isolate examples but don't realize how
generally brutal the Japanese were to the people they conquered. Bataan
or Nanjing were representative of their behavior, not isolated examples.
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FACTS MATTER!
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May 28, '16, 4:50 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo520
Most people mention a few isolate
examples but don't realize how generally brutal the Japanese were to the
people they conquered. Bataan or Nanjing were representative of their
behavior, not isolated examples.
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Sadly true. The regimes they set up were indeed spectacularly
vile, most people outside of Asia are less familiar with them though as
the Third Reich occupies our attention in Europe more.
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May 28, '16, 5:14 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo520
Most people mention a few isolate
examples but don't realize how generally brutal the Japanese were to the
people they conquered. Bataan or Nanjing were representative of their
behavior, not isolated examples.
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Light reading:
SOME SURVIVED/Lawton
THE KNIGHTS OF BUSHIDO/Lord Russell of Liverpool
BLOOD AND BUSHIDO/Edwards
HIDDEN HORRORS/Tanaka
PRISONERS OF THE JAPANESE/Dawes
SURVIVING THE SWORD/MacArthur
THE FALLEN/Landas
A PLAGUE UPON HUMANITY/Barenblatt
UNJUST ENRICHMENT/Holmes
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May 28, '16, 5:15 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Light reading:
SOME SURVIVED/Lawton
THE KNIGHTS OF BUSHIDO/Lord Russell of Liverpool
BLOOD AND BUSHIDO/Edwards
HIDDEN HORRORS/Tanaka
PRISONERS OF THE JAPANESE/Dawes
SURVIVING THE SWORD/MacArthur
THE FALLEN/Landas
A PLAGUE UPON HUMANITY/Barenblatt
UNJUST ENRICHMENT/Holmes
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That reading list would give anyone nightmares! It's a subject I'm interested in, too.
Of course, the Peace Memorial Museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki also gave me nightmares.
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May 28, '16, 5:19 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
That reading list would give anyone nightmares!
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Yep.
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May 28, '16, 5:22 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Yep.
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I had relatives who were missionaries in the Pacific, and who went
through unspeakable Hell as Japanese prisoners in World War Two. I also
lived in Japan briefly in childhood, and I grew to love it. So I have very mixed and conflicted feelings regarding this subject.
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Solvitur ambulando…. It is solved by walking…
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May 28, '16, 5:22 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
I had relatives who were missionaries in
the Pacific, and who went through unspeakable Hell. I also lived in
Japan briefly in childhood, and I grew to love it. So I have very mixed and conflicted feelings regarding this subject.
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Understood.
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May 28, '16, 5:29 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
I had relatives who were missionaries in
the Pacific, and who went through unspeakable Hell as Japanese prisoners
in World War Two. I also lived in Japan briefly in childhood, and I
grew to love it. So I have very mixed and conflicted feelings regarding this subject.
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I would say to that the words one ex veteran shared with me about
the Fascists, 'The horror about all these regimes was not that they were
inhuman but that they were all too human'. Sadly we all have the
potential to become such beings and all the various nations we come from
can start down these paths, we can probably all find periods of such
mass insanity in the pasts of our various nations. As GKC who is
replying to you likes to keep saying history is messy and unfortunately
so are human beings, we compartmentalize. We place our own nation's
atrocities in a special 'not as bad as the other bloke's'' box when in
truth they often are just as loopy and crazed. One of my biggest
problems with modern Japan is the refusal to come to terms with and
fully admit some of the horrors that occurred during WW2, however I
could also point to issues concerning historical events in my own nation
where that kind of 'sweeping skeletons under the carpet' trick is
played.
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May 28, '16, 5:52 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
I would say to that the words one ex
veteran shared with me about the Fascists, 'The horror about all these
regimes was not that they were inhuman but that they were all too
human'. Sadly we all have the potential to become such beings and all
the various nations we come from can start down these paths, we can
probably all find periods of such mass insanity in the pasts of our
various nations. As GKC who is replying to you likes to keep saying
history is messy and unfortunately so are human beings, we
compartmentalize. We place our own nation's atrocities in a special 'not
as bad as the other bloke's'' box when in truth they often are just as
loopy and crazed. One of my biggest problems with modern Japan is the
refusal to come to terms with and fully admit some of the horrors that
occurred during WW2, however I could also point to issues concerning
historical events in my own nation where that kind of 'sweeping
skeletons under the carpet' trick is played.
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I can find you isolated individual atrocities, by Americans, on
the Japanese. Not a lot,not institutionalized. no cannibalism I know of,
but bad stuff.
I wouldn't walk out on your post, overall, in an indignant huff. History is messy. Full of those human beings.
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May 28, '16, 5:56 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
I can find you isolated individual
atrocities, of Americans, on the Japanese. Not a lot,not
institutionalized. no cannibalism I know of, but bad stuff.
I wouldn't walk out on your post, overall, in an indignant huff.
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I tend to becoming more and more cynical shall we say about the
human race as a general rule. I tend to agree with the late Douglas
Adams recently where he observed that some people felt leaving the
oceans was a big mistake.
My own view about speeches at places like Hiroshima is that the English
language has like all tongues events it cannot cope with and that
sometimes silence is more powerful. Unfortunately world leaders cannot
just stay quiet and are generally expected to say something. Few possess
the oratory to address issues like Hiroshima however. This is
especially true of of our modern day politicians who are generally not
noted for their stunning skills with regards to speaking in public.
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May 28, '16, 6:09 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
I tend to becoming more and more cynical
shall we say about the human race as a general rule. I tend to agree
with the late Douglas Adams recently where he observed that some people
felt leaving the oceans was a big mistake.
My own view about speeches at places like Hiroshima is that the English
language has like all tongues events it cannot cope with and that
sometimes silence is more powerful. Unfortunately world leaders cannot
just stay quiet and are generally expected to say something. Few possess
the oratory to address issues like Hiroshima however. This is
especially true of of our modern day politicians who are generally not
noted for their stunning skills with regards to speaking in public.
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Leaving the trees was bad enough. And then we started banging the rocks together.
I don't know. At ground zero we stopped something. Haven't started
anything that big again. Maybe some day we can stop banging the rocks
together.
As I said when I mentioned my visit last year to the ENOLA GAY exhibit,
and realized I was standing next to a young Japanese family. I just ...
thought of things.
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May 28, '16, 6:17 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Leaving the trees was bad enough. And then we started banging the rocks together.
I don't know. At ground zero we stopped something. Haven't started
anything that big again. Maybe some day we can stop banging the rocks
together.
As I said when I mentioned my visit last year to the ENOLA GAY exhibit,
and realized I was standing next to a young Japanese family. I just ...
thought of things.
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For some reason I am reminded of the end of that old Planet of the
Apes movie where they blow up the Doomsday Bomb and you get a voiceover
(if memory serves me) about a planet no longer existing or something
similar.
I generally am the token bleeding heart, left-winger of the forum but
even I cannot see what choice the US had besides using the bomb in the
situation as it stood at the end of WW2. They choose not the best
option, but the least terrible. Sometimes that is the only choice there
is.
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May 28, '16, 6:20 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipl
Japan got exactly what it deserved. Obama was wrong for going there. BTW, thanks to him, Iran will have the bomb in ten years.
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It is ludicrous, to the point of insanity, for him to be pining
away about a nuclear free world, when it is him more than anything else,
whose policy threaten that the world is now headed for a nuclear free
fall.
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May 28, '16, 6:25 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Sadly true. The regimes they set up were
indeed spectacularly vile, most people outside of Asia are less familiar
with them though as the Third Reich occupies our attention in Europe
more.
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One the uncles I never got to meet had just turned 19 when he died
in Manila of wounds suffered in what came to be called "The Great
Raid". He was part of an airborne battalion sent to block the road to
three Japanese divisions. There was no great military value in
liberating a prison camp except to save the lives of prisoners, many of
whom were civilians, from dying of starvation and disease. The Japanese
would never have attempted such a mission because they considered a
captive to be disgraced and not worthy of living.
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May 28, '16, 6:27 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
For some reason I am reminded of the end
of that old Planet of the Apes movie where they blow up the Doomsday
Bomb and you get a voiceover (if memory serves me) about a planet no
longer existing or something similar.
I generally am the token bleeding heart, left-winger of the forum but
even I cannot see what choice the US had besides using the bomb in the
situation as it stood at the end of WW2. They choose not the best
option, but the least terrible. Sometimes that is the only choice there
is.
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I'm generally the polar opposite, on both points. But that's my
position, too. I've even seen the description of any alternative as the
second least worse decision, in the literature somewhere.
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May 28, '16, 6:45 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
One the uncles I never got to meet had
just turned 19 when he died in Manila of wounds suffered in what came to
be called "The Great Raid". He was part of an airborne battalion sent
to block the road to three Japanese divisions. There was no great
military value in liberating a prison camp except to save the lives of
prisoners, many of whom were civilians, from dying of starvation and
disease. The Japanese would never have attempted such a mission because
they considered a captive to be disgraced and not worthy of living.
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Rather like the fate of many of my wife's extended family who were
Slavs once they disappeared into German prison camps.I know the
Japanese were proceeding from the mentality that the soldiers should
have died fighting honourably and could not generally understand why
they did not as their cultural context was different regarding these
matters. A minority apparently of Japanese army personnel who had been
educated abroad understood that it was otherwise but I know from
speaking to some who were imprisoned that life was brutal generally for
Allied soldiers captured by the Japanese.
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May 28, '16, 6:47 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
I'm generally the polar opposite, on both
points. But that's my position, too. I've even seen the description of
any alternative as the second least worse decision, in the literature
somewhere.
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Put it this way, if this were a comic I would be Green Arrow, I think you will get that reference.
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May 28, '16, 6:49 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Sadly true. The regimes they set up were
indeed spectacularly vile, most people outside of Asia are less familiar
with them though as the Third Reich occupies our attention in Europe
more.
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Agreed. The Japanese were so brutal that they managed to horrify the visiting Nazi consultants with their exceptional cruelty.
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May 28, '16, 6:52 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
Put it this way, if this were a comic I would be Green Arrow, I think you will get that reference.
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And I would be more...you know. Same color.
But I'd not be quite as intimidated by Oliver. I got conservative cred.
My copy of THE CONSERVATIVE MIND is inscribed to me by Russell Kirk..Not
to mention my William Buckley collection.
Met Neal Adams a couple of times, Denny O'Neil once.
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May 28, '16, 7:00 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
And I would be more...you know. Same color.
But I'd not be quite as intimidated by Oliver. I got conservative cred.
My copy of THE CONSERVATIVE MIND is inscribed to me by Russell Kirk..Not
to mention my William Buckley collection.
Met Neal Adams a coupe of times, Denny O'Neil once.
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I couldn't intimidate anyone. This was an age when comics actually
were more mature than the stuff we see now which purports to be
'mature' but that is a topic for another thread and a particular bugbear
of my own.
People do use eagle eye hindsight with the atomic bombs and Japan in a
way that is irksome. As another poster pointed out the US had hundreds
of thousands of soldiers in the war and potentially stood to lose
hundreds of thousands more. Also the Japanese 'Co-Prosperity Sphere' was
as brutal and nasty a set of puppet regimes and vicious sadism as has
yet been dreamed up by man.
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May 28, '16, 7:09 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliam
President Obama came face to face with
the horror of nuclear war Friday in a somber visit to Hiroshima,
becoming the first sitting U.S. president to tour the site of the atomic
bombing 71 years ago that killed tens of thousands in an instant and
ushered in the nuclear age.
In a sweeping address that reflected on the obligations of humankind,
Obama wrestled with the inherent contradiction that centuries of
technical advancement have both made it easier to bind people together
and given them the capacity for the carnage seen in this city. And he
confronted the cold reality that his own goal of a world without nuclear
firepower remains frustratingly out of reach.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-o...nap-story.html |
A beautiful message, of course. Prayers that it takes purchase in our hearts.
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May 28, '16, 7:11 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian
I couldn't intimidate anyone. This was an
age when comics actually were more mature than the stuff we see now
which purports to be 'mature' but that is a topic for another thread and
a particular bugbear of my own.
People do use eagle eye hindsight with the atomic bombs and Japan in a
way that is irksome. As another poster pointed out the US had hundreds
of thousands of soldiers in the war and potentially stood to lose
hundreds of thousands more. Also the Japanese 'Co-Prosperity Sphere' was
as brutal and nasty a set of puppet regimes and vicious sadism as has
yet been dreamed up by man.
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And more people were at risk than even the Americans and Japanese military, or the civilians in the Home Islands.
Irked was not the reaction I felt in 1994, when I took up this particular book hobby.
I stopped reading current comics years ago. Never really recovered from CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. 'Nuff said.
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May 28, '16, 7:13 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
I can find you isolated individual
atrocities, by Americans, on the Japanese. Not a lot,not
institutionalized. no cannibalism I know of, but bad stuff.
I wouldn't walk out on your post, overall, in an indignant huff. History is messy. Full of those human beings.
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Human beings, indeed - beautiful messes.
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May 28, '16, 7:17 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
Human beings, indeed - beautiful messes.
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Takes a keen eye to spot the beauty in some of them.
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May 28, '16, 7:19 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Dropping the A-Bombs on the Japanese cities was immoral, barbaric, and an atrocity.
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"It's a free country; you can say whatever you want."
--Old American Saying
(U.S. Postal Service stamp-- from 1977 Americana series which extols
freedom of speech and features a Speaker's Stand decorated with an
American Flag shield.)
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May 28, '16, 7:20 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Takes a keen eye to spot the beauty in some of them.
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We are called to such vision, I believe. That said, I hear and feel you.
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May 28, '16, 7:21 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Sheep
We are called to such vision, I believe. That said, I hear and feel you.
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I leave you to your understanding.
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May 31, '16, 5:16 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilliam
President Obama came face to face with
the horror of nuclear war Friday in a somber visit to Hiroshima,
becoming the first sitting U.S. president to tour the site of the atomic
bombing 71 years ago that killed tens of thousands in an instant and
ushered in the nuclear age.
In a sweeping address that reflected on the obligations of humankind,
Obama wrestled with the inherent contradiction that centuries of
technical advancement have both made it easier to bind people together
and given them the capacity for the carnage seen in this city. And he
confronted the cold reality that his own goal of a world without nuclear
firepower remains frustratingly out of reach.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-o...nap-story.html |
Not to be too obstruse, but what does Mr. Obama know of morality? Based on my observations, not much.
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May 31, '16, 5:46 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRRTFAN
Not to be too obstruse, but what does Mr. Obama know of morality? Based on my observations, not much.
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I had been wondering the same thing! 
__________________
You created every part of me; you put me together in my mother's womb.
(13) when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was
there----you saw me before I was born. (15) ~~~Psalm 139
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May 31, '16, 8:05 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRRTFAN
Not to be too obstruse, but what does Mr. Obama know of morality? Based on my observations, not much.
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http://www.dailywritingtips.com/abstruse-vs-obtuse/
The way I interpret your response is to take the definition right down the middle from the two common words.
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Jun 1, '16, 3:22 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRRTFAN
Not to be too obstruse, but what does Mr. Obama know of morality? Based on my observations, not much.
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Teleprompter.
Japan started the Pacific Ocean war when it invaded China in 1932.
Stalin was worried Japan might attack Russia/USSR.
Somehow, Japan was goaded / cajoled into attacking Pearl Harbor in the territory of Hawaii.
They also attacked the Philippines and what is now Indonesia.
Didn't work out.
Read Operation Snow by John Koster
Read American Betrayal by Diana West
Read Blacklisted by History by M. Stanton Evans ... he wrote a lot of other books as well.
Visit Google and Amazon and look up the word " venona " ... read everything.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 1, '16, 4:44 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
The left's definition of morality rest on
three pillars - sexual promiscuity , excessive taxation, excessive
government regulation
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Who defines excessive taxation and excessive regulation? Aren't
those by their nature subjective? Kind of like how the republicans claim
to be the party of small government when they actually have never made
the government smaller.
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Jun 1, '16, 6:37 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Teleprompter.
Japan started the Pacific Ocean war when it invaded China in 1932.
Stalin was worried Japan might attack Russia/USSR.
Somehow, Japan was goaded / cajoled into attacking Pearl Harbor in the territory of Hawaii.
They also attacked the Philippines and what is now Indonesia.
Didn't work out.
Read Operation Snow by John Koster
Read American Betrayal by Diana West
Read Blacklisted by History by M. Stanton Evans ... he wrote a lot of other books as well.
Visit Google and Amazon and look up the word " venona " ... read everything.
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That he did. I started reading him in college, when he was the
associate editor of Buckley's NATIONAL REVIEW. He. like Frank Meyer, was
a Fusionist, uniting both the traditional and the libertarian streams
of conservatism. And sadly, passed away last year, among the last of my
heroes from those days, 40 years ago. His STALIN'S SECRET AGENTS might
be more supportive of Koster's thesis than his BLACKLISTED. I say
"might", since I've not read it yet. But tomorrow is book ordering day;
and I'll include this one, as a tribute to Mr. Evans.
Koster, as you know, I think fails in his case.
VENONA. Yes. Absolutely.
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Jun 1, '16, 7:39 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
So, because of the indiscretion of the
Japanese government leading to the inexcusable death of thousands in
their misguided conquest, the incineration of thousands of innocent
people is somehow excusable? We sure taught the emperor and military
leadership of Japan a lesson by killing hundreds of families who were
also victims of the war, huh? |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofight
Lol...thanks for the academic advice...my
degree is in History, I'll be sure to let my professors know they
should contact you for better scholastic insight.... that being said,
the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was not primarily to end the war,
as Japan was weeks from surrender, but to shut the door before the
Soviets joined the fight which would have resulted in giving them
control of much of Asia as they gained in Eastern Europe after defeat of
the Nazis...so, we agree Facts do matter.
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Student (Neofight), meet the master (GKC) Glad you have your
degree in History, where you were taught by leftist professors who
constantly pushed the evils of American exceptionalism. Turns out they
were wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Indeed they do. Japan was not preparing
to surrender, at any foreseeable time in the future, in early August
1945. The control of that decision (barring an intervention by the
Emperor, which is what happened, at the 2nd kozen kaigan) on 10 July) was in the hands of the Saiko Senso Shido Kaigi ,
which was controlled by the hard-line Gen. Anami, the Minister of War.
The history is detailed and voluminous and has been a particular hobby
of mine for over 26 years. Recommended reading: Frank/DOWNFALL: THE END
OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE EMPIRE, Newman/ TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT,
Miscamble/THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL DECISION, Maddox/ (ed.)/ HIROSHIMA IN
HISTORY, and his WEAPONS FOR VICTORY. Kort's THE COLUMBIA GUIDE TO
HIROSHIMA AND THE BOMB is a good overview and is comprised, more than
50%, of original documents. Frank is essential. That's from my
collection of over 120 titles on the subject and near related matters
such as the invasion plans. More suggested reading, from all
perspectives, is available.
A brief observation and summary. Reductionist thinking on the reason for
the bombs use is illusory, as you understand. The bottom line was to
achieve the quickest end to the war, with the least bloodshed. Other
than by us surrendering to them, that is. And it was what happened.
Discussion of this subject occurs frequently here, and usually takes one
of two (or sometimes both) approaches. One is to look at the morality
and discuss that, in terms of general or specific teachings. The other
is to add "and anyway..." excursions into the history. As long as it is
in the first case, I don't participate. I have my own view of the
morality and am not interested in discussing it. When it drifts into
history, I do. Over 8-9 years I think I've posted around 600 times on
the subject. Gets tiring.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicAMMO
I pray that the dignity of human life be respected from conception till natural death.
As for deaths incurred in the course of war, I pray that peace may be achieved with minimal bloodshed.
I'll be deploying back to the Middle East soon. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things...
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Stay safe, and thank you for what you do to protect our country, our culture, and my family!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
Fascism is a nihilistic, barbaric world
view that needed to be stopped before it destroyed the world. Japanese
fascism was particularly brutal and their military was in effect a
demonic cult of sadism.
America was a nation that was capable then of making the hard decisions
in order to annihilate fascism from the face of the earth.
Japan is a much better country because of that hard decision. Because of
America, Japan is among the most honorable and peaceful nations on
earth, a real beacon of the possibilities that become available for
those who choose freedom.
Obama's vague speech does not reflect the kind of America that could
emerge victorious over the evil of fascism.He is a product of the
morally equivalent world of the left. In such a world, even the absolute
evil of fascist Japan is being forgotten.
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None of Obama's speeches reflect positively on America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwyer
Dropping the A-Bombs on the Japanese cities was immoral, barbaric, and an atrocity.
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Absolutely....but they were better than the alternative. War is
hell, but it's better than the alternative. Fortunately, people like
CatholicAMMO are willing to sacrifice themselves so that you have the
freedom to express your beliefs. If there were not people like him, then
people like you would have an islamic sword at your throat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Who defines excessive taxation and
excessive regulation? Aren't those by their nature subjective? Kind of
like how the republicans claim to be the party of small government when
they actually have never made the government smaller.
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Who defines sexual promiscuity? Isn't that, by their nature, subjective??
Agreed that Repubs haven't shrunk government, that's why Trump won the
Repub primary. But, just like dropping H bombs on Japan was better than
continuing the war and losing a MILLION US servicemen, voting for Repubs
is better than voting for Dem.
A few weeks ago I had the honor of caring for a 90+ year old gentlemen
in my ED. Turns out he was on a troopship off of southern Japan that
August. Because Japan surrendered after the 2nd H bomb he was able to
come home, marry his high school sweetheart, have 8 kids and a ton of
grandkids/great grandkids, run a ranch for 60 years, etc.
The only thing that prevents evil from flourishing in the world is good men willing to resort to violence.
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Jun 3, '16, 3:27 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkcat_14
Who defines excessive taxation and
excessive regulation? Aren't those by their nature subjective? Kind of
like how the republicans claim to be the party of small government when
they actually have never made the government smaller.
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Excessive taxation is when anyone pays more than 10% of their total income.
There is some biblical guidance for a maximum of 10%.
There is also some biblical guidance for voluntary charitable contributions.
There are two main political parties. One of them actively advocates for
bigger government. The other one talks occasionally about smaller
government.
There is some statistical justification that when taxes reach 40%, then the economy slows down.
One thing that can be done is to research the 200 world's countries and
see which ones have high taxes and which ones have low growth and low
economic freedom.
There are lists of these countries and in some of them you can rearrange
the lists based on growth, or taxation, or other criteria.
Several economists have offered discussions on these issues.
One of them is Art Laffer.
Interested people can look him up and see what he has written.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 3, '16, 3:40 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
Fascism is a nihilistic, barbaric world
view that needed to be stopped before it destroyed the world. Japanese
fascism was particularly brutal and their military was in effect a
demonic cult of sadism.
America was a nation that was capable then of making the hard decisions
in order to annihilate fascism from the face of the earth.
Japan is a much better country because of that hard decision. Because of
America, Japan is among the most honorable and peaceful nations on
earth, a real beacon of the possibilities that become available for
those who choose freedom.
Obama's vague speech does not reflect the kind of America that could
emerge victorious over the evil of fascism.He is a product of the
morally equivalent world of the left. In such a world, even the absolute
evil of fascist Japan is being forgotten.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but fascism was uniquely italian created by
the dictator Benito Mussolini. The idea is that the individuals united
are more potent than the individuals themselves. It is also a fable by
Aesop. Keep in mind that the bunches of sticks you see in many of the
buildings/coins/etc in the US predates fascism as we know it today by
several hundreds of years(fascism was originally pioneered by Hitler and
Mussolini, with precursors in the late 19th century). Mussolini adopted
the symbol and name as it fit well with his idea that the individual
was subordinate to the state(MANY quotes to that effect available by
research).
Japan needed oil [don't we all] but didn't have any domestic supplies.
So they had to import it. They have learned by sorry experience that
they can trade for it. But in the 1930's they thought the best approach
was to seize it from what is now called indonesia.
Shockingly, during World War One, the japanese defeated Russia's navy.
it is an interesting conclusion that some countries with few natural resources can trade for it.
And that some countries with abundant natural resources have difficulties making economic growth.
The Japanese officials were upset by some of the disarmament treaties
that the number of battleships they were allowed would preclude them
from seizing what they needed.
One justification for attacking Pearl Harbor was to prevent the United States from temporarily stopping the japanese military.
Didn't work out.
In the process of learning better, japan, Germany and Russia and China
managed to kill 200million or more innocent people. In the 1900's.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
Last edited by Monte RCMS; Jun 3, '16 at 3:56 am.
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Jun 3, '16, 5:18 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Correct me if I am wrong, but fascism was
uniquely italian created by the dictator Benito Mussolini. The idea is
that the individuals united are more potent than the individuals
themselves. It is also a fable by Aesop. Keep in mind that the bunches
of sticks you see in many of the buildings/coins/etc in the US predates
fascism as we know it today by several hundreds of years(fascism was
originally pioneered by Hitler and Mussolini, with precursors in the
late 19th century). Mussolini adopted the symbol and name as it fit well
with his idea that the individual was subordinate to the state(MANY
quotes to that effect available by research).
Japan needed oil [don't we all] but didn't have any domestic supplies.
So they had to import it. They have learned by sorry experience that
they can trade for it. But in the 1930's they thought the best approach
was to seize it from what is now called indonesia.
Shockingly, during World War One, the japanese defeated Russia's navy.
it is an interesting conclusion that some countries with few natural resources can trade for it.
And that some countries with abundant natural resources have difficulties making economic growth.
The Japanese officials were upset by some of the disarmament treaties
that the number of battleships they were allowed would preclude them
from seizing what they needed.
One justification for attacking Pearl Harbor was to prevent the United States from temporarily stopping the japanese military.
Didn't work out.
In the process of learning better, japan, Germany and Russia and China
managed to kill 200million or more innocent people. In the 1900's.
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Japan defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese War, 1904-1905. Battle of Tsushima being the key event, naval-wise.
Oil was one of the key things that Japan hoped to acquire by taking an
expansionist policy, and adopting what it saw as the Western mode of
imperialism, to dominate the western Pacific and "greater east Asia".
Japan wanted a new world order, Hakkō ichiu, with Western nations
out of their Pacific/Asian colonial empires, and Japan in their place.
It was how the big boys played the game and Japan wanted to be a big
boy.
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Jun 3, '16, 6:53 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Correct me if I am wrong, but fascism was
uniquely italian created by the dictator Benito Mussolini. The idea is
that the individuals united are more potent than the individuals
themselves. It is also a fable by Aesop. Keep in mind that the bunches
of sticks you see in many of the buildings/coins/etc in the US predates
fascism as we know it today by several hundreds of years(fascism was
originally pioneered by Hitler and Mussolini, with precursors in the
late 19th century). Mussolini adopted the symbol and name as it fit well
with his idea that the individual was subordinate to the state(MANY
quotes to that effect available by research).
Japan needed oil [don't we all] but didn't have any domestic supplies.
So they had to import it. They have learned by sorry experience that
they can trade for it. But in the 1930's they thought the best approach
was to seize it from what is now called indonesia.
Shockingly, during World War One, the japanese defeated Russia's navy.
it is an interesting conclusion that some countries with few natural resources can trade for it.
And that some countries with abundant natural resources have difficulties making economic growth.
The Japanese officials were upset by some of the disarmament treaties
that the number of battleships they were allowed would preclude them
from seizing what they needed.
One justification for attacking Pearl Harbor was to prevent the United States from temporarily stopping the japanese military.
Didn't work out.
In the process of learning better, japan, Germany and Russia and China
managed to kill 200 million or more innocent people. In the 1900's.
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I guess what I mean by describing Japan as fascist is to note that
they were on the same side of the battle as the fascist nations of
Germany and Italy in WWII. Theirs was a militaristic, nationalistic,
racist vision of the world, with a deeply imbued belief that Japanese
are superior and are suited to dominate other peoples. Their cruelty
however knew no bounds, not just to the prisoners of wars that they
captured, and the nations that they overran, but even to themselves.
If that does not describe what is meant by fascism in the historical
sense, it certainly describes what people mean by fascism in the popular
sense.
Jun 3, '16, 7:01 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRRTFAN
Not to be too obstruse, but what does Mr. Obama know of morality? Based on my observations, not much.
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**************************************** **************************************** ********
I think he has aided the world to morally dissolve!
__________________
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Jun 3, '16, 10:28 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl1958
I guess what I mean by describing Japan
as fascist is to note that they were on the same side of the battle as
the fascist nations of Germany and Italy in WWII. Theirs was a
militaristic, nationalistic, racist vision of the world, with a deeply
imbued belief that Japanese are superior and are suited to dominate
other peoples. Their cruelty however knew no bounds, not just to the
prisoners of wars that they captured, and the nations that they overran,
but even to themselves.
If that does not describe what is meant by fascism in the historical
sense, it certainly describes what people mean by fascism in the popular
sense.
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Joining Germany, Italy and Japan in World War Two was the Arab League.
If Germany in World War Two had been able to cross the Suez Canal and
join up with the Arab League, they could have linked up with the
nationalists in India and then link with Japan on the east side of
India.
Back then, India included what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 3, '16, 1:16 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
It is hard to argue against the killing
of 100,000 people at once but support the killing of that many every
month, one baby at a time.
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Rather than making everything about abortion, wouldn't it make
sense to point out that while he (and other American presidents) often
give lip service to the idea of nuclear disarmament, while ignoring the
fact that we have enough *deployed* nuclear warheads to end the world
several times over? Let alone the nukes we have stockpiled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipl
Japan got exactly what it deserved. Obama was wrong for going there. BTW, thanks to him, Iran will have the bomb in ten years.
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This is the most uncharitable thing I ever read here. Civilians
never deserve to suffer because of the actions of their leaders and if
you believe that, then there isn't a nation on earth that doesn't
deserve to be purged.
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Jun 3, '16, 1:22 pm
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Posts: 489
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by xNoOnex
Rather than making everything about
abortion, wouldn't it make sense to point out that while he (and other
American presidents) often give lip service to the idea of nuclear
disarmament, while ignoring the fact that we have enough *deployed*
nuclear warheads to end the world several times over? Let alone the
nukes we have stockpiled.
This is the most uncharitable thing I ever read here. Civilians never
deserve to suffer because of the actions of their leaders and if you
believe that, then there isn't a nation on earth that doesn't deserve to
be purged.
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The "deployed" nukes are the ones ready to launch, and are there
to prevent other nations from launching against us. We put them in
strategic places (like eastern Europe...well, we were going to, before
Obama) to ensure Russia won't invade there.
They are STRATEGIC in nature, kind of like how many people move their queen in chess.
Re Japan getting what they "deserved"....I read that as the Nation State of Japan, not the civilian population.
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Jun 3, '16, 1:38 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Excessive taxation is when anyone pays more than 10% of their total income.
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According to whom and by what criteria? For example, if educated
professionals refuse to migrate to a country that would be a sign of
excessive taxation. Our tax rates don't scare educated professionals
away.
Quote:
There is some biblical guidance for a maximum of 10%.
There is also some biblical guidance for voluntary charitable contributions.
There are two main political parties. One of them actively advocates for
bigger government. The other one talks occasionally about smaller
government.
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They are both big government, welfare state supporting parties.
Quote:
There is some statistical justification that when taxes reach 40%, then the economy slows down.
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You mean like Canada?
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Jun 3, '16, 3:32 pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: October 1, 2013
Posts: 358
Religion: Roman Catholic (No Longer Lapsed)
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatswain2PA
The "deployed" nukes are the ones ready
to launch, and are there to prevent other nations from launching against
us. We put them in strategic places (like eastern Europe...well, we
were going to, before Obama) to ensure Russia won't invade there.
They are STRATEGIC in nature, kind of like how many people move their queen in chess.
Re Japan getting what they "deserved"....I read that as the Nation State of Japan, not the civilian population.
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That "strategic" nature of most of our nukes is mutually assured
destruction. Same for Russia, same for most nuclear armed nations. And I
won't argue against its effectiveness. It does wonders to reign in
egos, since no one wants to have their plans go up in smoke because of a
little thing like the End Of The World As We Know It.
There's still a bit of hypocrisy, however, about a man talking about how
bad nuclear weapons are when he's head of a nation that can turn the
world into the Mad Max universe. And I think, it would be more fruitful
to call him on that rather than speaking about abortion. That's all I'm
saying.
And maybe the poster was referring to the Japanese state, but again, if
you're judging a nation by its state, I'd argue that there isn't a
single one that doesn't deserve the be purified with nuclear fire. There
isn't a country on earth that hasn't committed atrocities at some point
or another.
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Jun 4, '16, 3:10 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 9, 2008
Posts: 14,622
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by xNoOnex
That "strategic" nature of most of our
nukes is mutually assured destruction. Same for Russia, same for most
nuclear armed nations. And I won't argue against its effectiveness. It
does wonders to reign in egos, since no one wants to have their plans go
up in smoke because of a little thing like the End Of The World As We
Know It.
There's still a bit of hypocrisy, however, about a man talking about how
bad nuclear weapons are when he's head of a nation that can turn the
world into the Mad Max universe. And I think, it would be more fruitful
to call him on that rather than speaking about abortion. That's all I'm
saying.
And maybe the poster was referring to the Japanese state, but again, if
you're judging a nation by its state, I'd argue that there isn't a
single one that doesn't deserve the be purified with nuclear fire. There
isn't a country on earth that hasn't committed atrocities at some point
or another.
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Mutually Assured Destruction was a creation of Robert S. McNamara, the Secretary of Defense under President John Kennedy.
Prior to MAD, the strategy of President Eisenhower was nuclear fighting
to win. It required overwhelming force. Both offensive and defensive. So overwhelming
that there was no question that it would be utterly destructive to the
Soviets. And that we would survive handily. But ... And ... it was
expensive to have all those bombers and missiles and interceptors.
Eisenhower's military budget was around 8% of GDP.
So, McNamara switched to MAD to save money.
McNamara got rid of our defensive forces. He refused to upgrade them. Saved money.
Abandoned the meaningful efforts at anti-missile deployments.
There was a military man-in-space program ... MOL ... manned orbiting laboratory. DynaSoar ... [dopey name] ... ALL GONE
McNamara started the process of getting rid of the SR-71. The Mach 3
titanium Blackbird reconnaissance plane. There was going to be a YF-12
interceptor version. GONE. He had them break up the tooling. Saved
money.
To save money, McNamara insisted that the Air Force and the Navy use the
same airplane to do multi-tasks. So he came up with the F-111; it was a
turkey ... they called it the "Swing Wing Edsel". Too heavy to land on a
carrier. Eventually, it became an Air Force bomber, it was so big. The
final fighter version got used by the Australians ... seriously ... and
also as a jammer plane. Except that the budget guys got reassigned and
the EF-111A Sparkvark ... or whatever ... it was called the Aardvaark
... and it got canceled and we didn't have a workable jammer and we
ended up getting a stealth fighter shot down by Serbia.
To save MORE money, McNamara insisted on using the C-141 design to make
the giant C-5 cargo plane ... wrong design ... wing cracks.
Eventually, they put a new wing on it. Flew ok. Now its getting new engines, electronics and etc.
To save EVEN MORE money, they got rid of the B-58 ... it cruised at Mach 2.
Got rid of the XB-70. It cruised at Mach 3.
McNamara cut the Army and the Navy as well.
And as soon as we reduced our military force, we immediately got into trouble in Cuba and Vietnam.
And in Serbia.
Put the military budget back.
Quit trying to save money.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
Last edited by Monte RCMS; Jun 4, '16 at 3:29 am.
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Jun 4, '16, 5:23 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 13,146
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Mutually Assured Destruction was a creation of Robert S. McNamara, the Secretary of Defense under President John Kennedy.
Prior to MAD, the strategy of President Eisenhower was nuclear fighting
to win. It required overwhelming force. Both offensive and defensive. So overwhelming
that there was no question that it would be utterly destructive to the
Soviets. And that we would survive handily. But ... And ... it was
expensive to have all those bombers and missiles and interceptors.
Eisenhower's military budget was around 8% of GDP.
So, McNamara switched to MAD to save money.
McNamara got rid of our defensive forces. He refused to upgrade them. Saved money.
Abandoned the meaningful efforts at anti-missile deployments.
There was a military man-in-space program ... MOL ... manned orbiting laboratory. DynaSoar ... [dopey name] ... ALL GONE
McNamara started the process of getting rid of the SR-71. The Mach 3
titanium Blackbird reconnaissance plane. There was going to be a YF-12
interceptor version. GONE. He had them break up the tooling. Saved
money.
To save money, McNamara insisted that the Air Force and the Navy use the
same airplane to do multi-tasks. So he came up with the F-111; it was a
turkey ... they called it the "Swing Wing Edsel". Too heavy to land on a
carrier. Eventually, it became an Air Force bomber, it was so big. The
final fighter version got used by the Australians ... seriously ... and
also as a jammer plane. Except that the budget guys got reassigned and
the EF-111A Sparkvark ... or whatever ... it was called the Aardvaark
... and it got canceled and we didn't have a workable jammer and we
ended up getting a stealth fighter shot down by Serbia.
To save MORE money, McNamara insisted on using the C-141 design to make
the giant C-5 cargo plane ... wrong design ... wing cracks.
Eventually, they put a new wing on it. Flew ok. Now its getting new engines, electronics and etc.
To save EVEN MORE money, they got rid of the B-58 ... it cruised at Mach 2.
Got rid of the XB-70. It cruised at Mach 3.
McNamara cut the Army and the Navy as well.
And as soon as we reduced our military force, we immediately got into trouble in Cuba and Vietnam.
And in Serbia.
Put the military budget back.
Quit trying to save money.
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Jun 4, '16, 5:59 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 13,146
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Mutually Assured Destruction was a creation of Robert S. McNamara, the Secretary of Defense under President John Kennedy.
Prior to MAD, the strategy of President Eisenhower was nuclear fighting
to win. It required overwhelming force. Both offensive and defensive. So overwhelming
that there was no question that it would be utterly destructive to the
Soviets. And that we would survive handily. But ... And ... it was
expensive to have all those bombers and missiles and interceptors.
Eisenhower's military budget was around 8% of GDP.
So, McNamara switched to MAD to save money.
McNamara got rid of our defensive forces. He refused to upgrade them. Saved money.
Abandoned the meaningful efforts at anti-missile deployments.
There was a military man-in-space program ... MOL ... manned orbiting laboratory. DynaSoar ... [dopey name] ... ALL GONE
McNamara started the process of getting rid of the SR-71. The Mach 3
titanium Blackbird reconnaissance plane. There was going to be a YF-12
interceptor version. GONE. He had them break up the tooling. Saved
money.
To save money, McNamara insisted that the Air Force and the Navy use the
same airplane to do multi-tasks. So he came up with the F-111; it was a
turkey ... they called it the "Swing Wing Edsel". Too heavy to land on a
carrier. Eventually, it became an Air Force bomber, it was so big. The
final fighter version got used by the Australians ... seriously ... and
also as a jammer plane. Except that the budget guys got reassigned and
the EF-111A Sparkvark ... or whatever ... it was called the Aardvaark
... and it got canceled and we didn't have a workable jammer and we
ended up getting a stealth fighter shot down by Serbia.
To save MORE money, McNamara insisted on using the C-141 design to make
the giant C-5 cargo plane ... wrong design ... wing cracks.
Eventually, they put a new wing on it. Flew ok. Now its getting new engines, electronics and etc.
To save EVEN MORE money, they got rid of the B-58 ... it cruised at Mach 2.
Got rid of the XB-70. It cruised at Mach 3.
McNamara cut the Army and the Navy as well.
And as soon as we reduced our military force, we immediately got into trouble in Cuba and Vietnam.
And in Serbia.
Put the military budget back.
Quit trying to save money.
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Ok.Let's ignore my previous post.
Partially right on the F-111. It was a force-fed program that the Navy
was able to wiggle out of, and the Air Force spent a lot of effort
trying to make a cost effective bird from. But the tactical jamming
version, EF-111A Raven, made a decent penetrating jammer, using a mod to
the Navy's ALQ-99 jamming system. It had a decent career, replacing the
EB-66 Destroyer (a bird that originated with a Navy attack plane. The
Navy liked the AF to adopt their birds, not the other way around. The
F-4 is an example. Curiously, the F/A 18 is sort of the other way
around.) in that role. Lasted around 15 years active service. Was cut
too soon, yes. One of the programs I worked on.
I'm not sure that McNamara had anything to do with the selection of the
design for the C-5, unless he sneakily directed who was to get the
contract. It was procured under the AF 300 series regs, and looks like
the C-141, because Lockheed won the contract. Wing cracks are a problem
in birds like that. They grounded the B-52 early in its career. When I
was stationed at the Rockwell plant, working on the original B-1
program, I used to walk by the torture device used to test the B-1
swing-wing box, to its death. Impressive looking. And yes, re-engining,
and electronics upgrades are part of the life of all successful systems.
I took part in several such, on the B-52 Ds, Gs and Hs, inter alia.
The B-58 was not one such. High cost, high maintenance and its designed
mission profile of high altitude, high speed penetration was made
perilous by the advent of high performance SAMS. Similar fate hit the
original B-70. And was why the B-1 had a designed mission profile of low
level, high speed penetration. Which would make for wing cracks.
OTOH, yes. More money for the military. I'll buy that.
And though it was way before my time, I rather liked the name Dyno-Soar.
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Jun 4, '16, 6:14 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 9, 2008
Posts: 14,622
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Ok.Let's ignore my previous post.
Partially right on the F-111. It was a force-fed program that the Navy
was able to wiggle out of, and the Air Force spent a,lot of effort
trying to make a cost effective bird from. But if the tactical jamming
version, EF-111A Raven, made a decent penetrating jammer, using a mod to
the Navy's ALQ-99 jamming system. It had a decent career, replacing the
EB-66 Destroyer in that role. Lasted around 15 years active service.
Was cut too soon, yes. One of the programs I worked on.
I'm not sure that McNamara had anything to do with the selection of the
design for the C-5, unless he sneakily directed who was to get the
contract. It was procured under the AF 300 series regs, and looks like
the C-141, because Lockheed won the contract. Wing cracks are a problem
in birds like that. They grounded the B-52 early in its career. When I
was stationed at the Rockwell plant, working on the original B-1
program, I used to walk by the torture device used to test the B-1
swing-wing box, to its death. Impressive looking. And yes, re-engining,
and electronics upgrades are part of the life of all successful systems.
I took part in several such, on the B-52 Ds, Gs and Hs, inter alia.
The B-58 was not one such. High cost, high maintenance and its designed
mission profile of high altitude, high speed penetration was made
perilous by the advent of high performance SAMS. Similar fate hit the
original B-70. And was why the B-1 had a designed mission profile of low
level, his speed penetration.
OTOH, yes. More money for the military. I'll buy that.
And though it was way before my time, I rather liked the name Dyno-Soar.
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"Dynamic Soaring" => DynaSoar ...
There was some television program a few years ago and they were cleaning
out some closets of a disused building down at Cape Kennedy.
And they found space suits.
THEY HAD NO IDEA THAT THE OLD MOL EXISTED.
It was a manned orbital recon platform ... a very small version of the
space station, with trained military astronauts. But it got cancelled.
So the trained military astronaut pilots were ordered to new assignments
and their space suits were left behind.
The F-111 was called the Swing Wing Edsel by our F-105D and F-105F combat pilots. They needed something to joke about.
At that time, we were losing a plane a day.
Rules of engagement.
And then there was a guy named McNaughton, who said that the North Vietnamese were [B ]not really[/b] going to use their surface to air missiles. [He actually said that.]
But they did.
Anyway, Robert McNamara's middle initial was "S".
And his middle name was "Strange".
Prior to becoming Secretary of Defense, he had been head of the Ford Motor Company.
And the Edsel was his car ... his pride and joy creation.
Eventually, ... they got the F-111 moveable wings to work properly. They had cracks in the hinge joint mechanism thing.
So they called the F-111 the Swing Wing Edsel ...
I remember the first actual combat missions ... one or two disappeared. A
tube of lube got left inside and was loose???? A long time ago.
Lobbing bombs?????
Eventually, I think the "D" model got to working ok.
McNamara was "death" on waste, so he minimized spending and as a result,
there wasn't enough hardware or trained troops to go around.
There were times when there weren't enough bombs available, because
McNamara had calculated verrryyyy carefully exactly how many bombs
should be needed.
So he only got us to buy just so many bombs.
And no more bombs than that.
He had calculated exactly when the war would be over and he didn't want leftover bombs after the war.
What a "joke" ... his date that the war would be won.
And he could not understand why we needed more bombs.
Sooooo, Mr. McNamara issued orders for camera pods to be mounted on the
F-105's and called it "Combat Document" ... and the camera pods had
three cameras ... one facing forward, one backwards and one facing down,
so that he could get home movies of EACH bomb so he could see where the
bombs went.
I got to see some of the film. The films showed green jungle in front,
to the bottom and to the rear. The "good" films were not in that batch
that I saw.
AND, because he demanded that our guys fly the right number of
missions/sorties that he had calculated to be needed, they had to fly
even if they didn't have enough bombs because he didn't buy enough.
There was one period, where they were using cargo planes to ferry bombs around so every body could have a few.
I spent so much time and energy there that it gives me a really nasty
case of PTSD just reliving the mess he created and caused by nickel and
dimeing our guys.
One of the pilots was Ed Rasimus; he wrote a couple of books. Survived the war. Died young.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
Last edited by Monte RCMS; Jun 4, '16 at 6:33 am.
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Jun 4, '16, 6:50 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
This shows actual military spending as a percent of GDP,
and you can see how much Eisenhower spent,
compared with Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara.
And his successors.
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineA...artspecial.pdf
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 4, '16, 7:11 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 13,146
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
[quote=Monte RCMS;13945921]"Dynamic Soaring" => DynaSoar ...
There was some television program a few years ago and they were cleaning
out some closets of a disused building down at Cape Kennedy.
And they found space suits.
THEY HAD NO IDEA THAT THE OLD MOL EXISTED.
It was a manned orbital recon platform ... a very small version of the
space station, with trained military astronauts. But it got cancelled.
So the trained military astronaut pilots were ordered to new assignments
and their space suits were left behind.
The F-111 was called the Swing Wing Edsel by our F-105D and F-105F combat pilots. They needed something to joke about.
At that time, we were losing a plane a day.
Rules of engagement.
And then there was a guy named McNaughton, who said that the North Vietnamese were [B]not really[/b] going to use their surface to air missiles. [He actually said that.]
But they did.
Anyway, Robert McNamara's middle initial was "S".
And his middle name was "Strange".
Prior to becoming Secretary of Defense, he had been head of the Ford Motor Company.
And the Edsel was his car ... his pride and joy creation.
Eventually, ... they got the F-111 moveable wings to work properly. They had cracks in the hinge joint mechanism thing.
So they called the F-111 the Swing Wing Edsel ...
I remember the first actual combat missions ... one or two disappeared. A
tube of lube got left inside and was loose???? A long time ago.
Lobbing bombs?????
Eventually, I think the "D" model got to working ok.
McNamara was "death" on waste, so he minimized spending and as a result,
there wasn't enough hardware or trained troops to go around.
There were times when there weren't enough bombs available, because
McNamara had calculated verrryyyy carefully exactly how many bombs
should be needed.
So he only got us to buy just so many bombs.
And no more bombs than that.
He had calculated exactly when the war would be over and he didn't want leftover bombs after the war.
What a "joke" ... his date that the war would be won.
And he could not understand why we needed more bombs.
Sooooo, Mr. McNamara issued orders for camera pods to be mounted on the
F-105's and called it "Combat Document" ... and the camera pods had
three cameras ... one facing forward, one backwards and one facing down,
so that he could get home movies of EACH bomb so he could see where the
bombs went.
I got to see some of the film. The films showed green jungle in front,
to the bottom and to the rear. The "good" films were not in that batch
that I saw.
AND, because he demanded that our guys fly the right number of
missions/sorties that he had calculated to be needed, they had to fly
even if they didn't have enough bombs because he didn't buy enough.
There was one period, where they were using cargo planes to ferry bombs around so every body could have a few.
I spent so much time and energy there that it gives me a really nasty
case of PTSD just reliving the mess he created and caused by nickel and
dimeing our guys.
One of the pilots was Ed Rasimus; he wrote a couple of books. Survived the war. Died young.[/QUOTE
The real problem with the F-111 was its forced commonality. And it was a
top-down forced compromise bird that had no true home and no true
mission. We often joked about keeping at until we found one. Maybe
HF-111 helicopter, or LMF-111 lawnmower. Or a base taxi. The jammer was a
good bird. And, truth be told,F-111s of various marks did have a
respectable combat history, E and Fs, IIRC.. But an awful life history.
The F-111 the swing wing thing was an engineering problem for the B-1,
too, as I mentioned. The carry through box is an engineering sore spot,
especially for variable geometry birds.
I was aware of the MOL. It was part of a briefing I got, in ROTC, early in its planning.
I'd use cargo planes to ferry munitions around myself. Can carry more. Carefully..
McNamara is not my favorite SecDef.
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Jun 7, '16, 3:38 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 9, 2008
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
In addition to books by Ed Rasimus [you can dial him in on YouTube and
view his burial at Arlington], there were also a book by Billy Sparks.
He had to race to get it done before he died. The Rasimus internment
YouTube has a lot of video clips of his life.
More recently, Dan Hampton wrote a book about the Wild Weasels.
Hunter Killers.
Wild Weasels were guys who went out and trolled for Surface to Air Missiles.
Dare them to shoot ya.
When they fired at you, you had ten seconds to live. Ten seconds to kill the missile.
Get the book; it's extremely well written.
Hampton is younger than the Vietnam guys because most of them got killed.
Very high stress environment.
But for the benefit of folks here who weren't there, that's what is part and parcel of fighting.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
Last edited by Monte RCMS; Jun 7, '16 at 3:57 am.
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Jun 7, '16, 3:43 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
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So Eisenhower had a peace time military budget of 8% of GDP.
And now we have a military budget of 3% of GDP.
Lots of stuff we should be funding, but we're not.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 7, '16, 3:44 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: November 7, 2012
Posts: 7,470
Religion: Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by xNoOnex
Rather than making everything about
abortion, wouldn't it make sense to point out that while he (and other
American presidents) often give lip service to the idea of nuclear
disarmament, while ignoring the fact that we have enough *deployed*
nuclear warheads to end the world several times over? Let alone the
nukes we have stockpiled.
This is the most uncharitable thing I ever read here. Civilians never
deserve to suffer because of the actions of their leaders and if you
believe that, then there isn't a nation on earth that doesn't deserve to
be purged.
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Innocents on both sides suffered. That much is true.
The dropping of the atom bombs was not about revenge. It was about
getting Japan to stop as it had absolutely no intentions of stopping. It
was either victory or annihilation for Japan's leaders.
As for Japan being a racist nation deluded by notions of its own
superiority, well that is also true. I see the same thing now with
China.
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Jun 7, '16, 4:01 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcelle
Innocents on both sides suffered. That much is true.
The dropping of the atom bombs was not about revenge. It was about
getting Japan to stop as it had absolutely no intentions of stopping. It
was either victory or annihilation for Japan's leaders.
As for Japan being a racist nation deluded by notions of its own
superiority, well that is also true. I see the same thing now with
China.
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There was an article in which the writer stated that the United States
and Britain should not have dropped the atomic bomb, but instead should
have continued to pulverize Japan with their battleships from off shore.
The author thinks that Japan would have surrendered. But instead they
would have starved to death. And the American and other prisoners would
have died, as well. [Mentioning the author would be politically
incorrect, in the extreme.]
There were no "good" alternatives.
When we debated this a couple of years ago, one poster actually said that the United States should have surrendered.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 7, '16, 4:13 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: November 7, 2012
Posts: 7,470
Religion: Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
There was an article in which the writer
stated that the United States and Britain should not have dropped the
atomic bomb, but instead should have continued to pulverize Japan with
their battleships from off shore. The author thinks that Japan would
have surrendered. But instead they would have starved to death. And the
American and other prisoners would have died, as well. [Mentioning the
author would be politically incorrect, in the extreme.]
There were no "good" alternatives.
When we debated this a couple of years ago, one poster actually said that the United States should have surrendered.
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Was this poster Japanese?
If the US had surrendered I doubt we would be posting on this forum
right now. Catholicism would have been outlawed and driven underground.
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Jun 7, '16, 5:58 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 13,146
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
There was an article in which the writer
stated that the United States and Britain should not have dropped the
atomic bomb, but instead should have continued to pulverize Japan with
their battleships from off shore. The author thinks that Japan would
have surrendered. But instead they would have starved to death. And the
American and other prisoners would have died, as well. [Mentioning the
author would be politically incorrect, in the extreme.]
There were no "good" alternatives.
When we debated this a couple of years ago, one poster actually said that the United States should have surrendered.
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I occasionally suggest that the only way to have ended the war
with fewer casualties, or quicker, would have been for us to surrender
to them. It's a sardonic, sarcastic observation on how little most
posters who try to attack the use of the bombs know of the history. But
it's likely true. There were no good alternatives. Only the least bad
one.
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Jun 7, '16, 8:13 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: June 28, 2007
Posts: 3,888
Religion: Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
I occasionally suggest that the only way
to have ended the war with fewer casualties, or quicker, would have been
for us to surrender to them. It's a sardonic, sarcastic observation on
how little most posters who try to attack the use of the bombs know of
the history. But it's likely true. There were no good alternatives. Only
the least bad one.
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One of the overlooked facts I omitted in post #49 is that the
Japanese had moved small arms production into homes of workers in cities
where factories had been bombed. It showed up in the declining quality
of the weapons the Japanese Army was using. It was the Japanese who made
residential areas legitimate targets in the war. The Japanese also used
long range balloon bombs in an effort to set fire to the vast North
American forests. If anyone knows of a better way to end the war without
a costly invasion, the Japanese germ warfare experiments, Japanese
atrocities against civilians in China and other Japanese held
territories, and starvation in the Japanese homeland that was known to
President Truman before he decided to use a new weapon, I would like to
hear it.
My mother worked on the Manhattan Project, although she did not know it
until her company received an award after the war. She never felt guilty
about it, as far as I know.
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Jun 7, '16, 8:30 pm
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Forum Master
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Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 13,146
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trader
One of the overlooked facts I omitted in
post #49 is that the Japanese had moved small arms production into homes
of workers in cities where factories had been bombed. It showed up in
the declining quality of the weapons the Japanese Army was using. It was
the Japanese who made residential areas legitimate targets in the war.
The Japanese also used long range balloon bombs in an effort to set fire
to the vast North American forests. If anyone knows of a better way to
end the war without a costly invasion, the Japanese germ warfare
experiments, Japanese atrocities against civilians in China and other
Japanese held territories, and starvation in the Japanese homeland that
was known to President Truman before he decided to use a new weapon, I
would like to hear it.
My mother worked on the Manhattan Project, although she did not know it
until her company received an award after the war. She never felt guilty
about it, as far as I know.
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The small home workbenches and house "factories" were ubiquitous.
LeMay commented on how the tooling would still be visible, when the
wood/paper house structures had burned in the firebombings.
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Jun 11, '16, 7:00 am
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Forum Master
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Join Date: November 9, 2008
Posts: 14,622
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
The small home workbenches and house
"factories" were ubiquitous. LeMay commented on how the tooling would
still be visible, when the wood/paper house structures had burned in the
firebombings.
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Jumping around, with apologies, but do you have "SOG" by John Plaster.
Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara also denied that the Ho Chi Minh
Trail existed, so he demanded home movies of it be made. The Studies
and Operations Group was established and these guys had to go there and
take pictures. Of course, the presence of these fellows was "leaked" and
they were consistently ambushed.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 11, '16, 7:01 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcelle
Was this poster Japanese?
If the US had surrendered I doubt we would be posting on this forum
right now. Catholicism would have been outlawed and driven underground. |
No, the poster was not Japanese.
But I dare not identify him.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 11, '16, 8:24 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Jumping around, with apologies, but do you have "SOG" by John Plaster.
Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara also denied that the Ho Chi Minh
Trail existed, so he demanded home movies of it be made. The Studies
and Operations Group was established and these guys had to go there and
take pictures. Of course, the presence of these fellows was "leaked" and
they were consistently ambushed.
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Found on Amazon:
The book, Life in the "Wild Blue Yonder" by John Lowery was merely
exceptionally interesting ... until Chapter 15 "The Thunderchief At
War"...
On page 174 alone, I inserted four bright red stickies. And on page 175 I added another. Why?
Because these sections were horrific ... have not found these aspects any where any where else!
" ... the Administration [President Johnson & Defense Secretary
McNamara] was providing the forthcoming week's target list to the North
Vietnamese ..."
The author refers to this as treachery; but, I would call it an act of treason.
In Chapter 22, I added six more bright stickies because the author
describes how our pilots who became POW's were deliberately abandoned.
We are indebted to Mr. Lowery for putting these revelations into print for future reference.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 13, '16, 4:49 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
This is mostly correct.
Japan's effort to develop nuclear weapons is discussed in Wilcox's
JAPAN'S SECRET WAR. The attempt to deliver the uranium oxide, via U-234,
was a failure. U-234 surrendered to the Allies 14 May, 1945, in the
eastern Atlantic. Japan's development programs were moribund by that
time.
The abortive coup attempt is classically covered in JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY (The Pacific War Research Society).
Okinawa has some such atrocities, but the classic case occurred on Saipan.
The uranium bomb (Little Boy), used on Hiroshima) was not tested for two
reasons: a paucity of enriched uranium, and the simplicity of its
design, which gave authorities the confidence to pass on the test. But
yes, whether the bomb would work, and what it might result in, were nail
biting questions, until 5 August,1800 feet over Hiroshima.
The Fat Man design, far more complex and challenging, but using more
abundant plutonium, was another matter. Hence, TRINITY, in July.
Bombing accuracy was a variable. At Hiroshima, it was superb. As Tibbets
said, they had the best aiming point he had ever seen, the T shaped
Aioi Bridge, and a clear day. Bomb exploded less than 1000 feet away.
At Nagasaki, it was a different situation. Nagasaki was not the original
target, which was Kokura, which was obscured by clouds and smoke. The
bombing rules required a visual drop, not a radar drop. Sweeney (the
aircraft AC) made for the alternate target, Nagasaki. Which was also
heavily obscured. He made 2 passes, futilely, looking for an opening. On
a 3rd pass, he had decided to violate the rules and drop by radar, when
the bombardier said he had a visual fix on an alternate drop point. And
took it. The bomb detonated a couple of miles off the original target
and some distance from the alternate aim point. The configuration of the
terrain, plus the fact it was dropped over a less densely populated
area, reduced the casualties.
I agree with the thrust of your post.
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The Japanese Navy had a nuclear weapons research facility at Wonson, Korea.
Which was the reason the Soviet Union/Russians raced over there to capture the facility.
And the reason why North Korea's nuclear weapons facility is there.
There were deposits of the uranium they needed close by that they could mine and refine.
As far as I can recall, during the Korean War, the United States did not capture Wonson.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 13, '16, 5:35 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
The Japanese Navy had a nuclear weapons research facility at Wonson, Korea.
Which was the reason the Soviet Union/Russians raced over there to capture the facility.
And the reason why North Korea's nuclear weapons facility is there.
There were deposits of the uranium they needed close by that they could mine and refine.
As far as I can recall, during the Korean War, the United States did not capture Wonson.
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And the Army had one, too. The Army project (NI-GO) was less well organized than the Navy (F-GO).
The good guys occupied Wonsan for a few months in late 1950 The F-GO project was at Konan (Hungnam) a little north of there.
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Jun 17, '16, 6:43 am
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Forum Master
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
Jumping around, with apologies, but do you have "SOG" by John Plaster.
Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara also denied that the Ho Chi Minh
Trail existed, so he demanded home movies of it be made. The Studies
and Operations Group was established and these guys had to go there and
take pictures. Of course, the presence of these fellows was "leaked" and
they were consistently ambushed.
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Sorry I missed this. No, as to the book, and while I occasionally
heard mention of the trail, back in my day, never heard this story about
my least favorite SecDef.
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Jun 17, '16, 6:53 am
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC
Sorry I missed this. No, as to the book,
and while I occasionally heard mention of the trail, back in my day,
never heard this story about my least favorite SecDef.
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Almost every operation by the SOG guys was blown.
Gets me really upset.
__________________
Come, Holy Ghost, fill the hearts of thy faithful and kindle in them the
fire of Thy Divine Love. Send forth Your Spirit, and they shall be
created. And You will renew the face of the earth.
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Jun 17, '16, 12:17 pm
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Re: In historic visit to Hiroshima, Obama calls on the world to morally evolve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usige
I have to agree with these statements 1000 times over.
Obama and other progressives doesn't want moral evolution, but rather
the extermination of morals. Atleast any morals that are remotely
associated with a Christian ethos.
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Amen. You hit that nail on the head. Estesbob has it right as well!
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